Re: Mum had sex with son
 

But he wasn't 30 - he was 18 - still young enough to be impressionable and led by his mother! Or impressionable enough not to say no. And the mother should not be taking advantage of her son's lack of life experience in that way.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Firstly you don't live in Alabama, you live on Ontario, in Canada, not the USA, secondly you said the laws existed, now you're saying it was only illegal up until a year ago, thirdly with regard to Canada (you remember, that place where you DO actually live, not to be confused with the USA), I quote

It mentions nothing about which sex's should be involved so I fail to see what the hell you're complaining about, if you want some action, do it in your own country where it's legal, surely it's a lot less hassle than travelling all the way down to Alabama?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

:tu: to that , i just cannot believe jerrek is saying it is ok , it beggars belief :disturbd:
will you answer the question , would you do it if you find it acceptable

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Ooh look we are going to "play the crop the quote and take its' context away" game are we? I'm sure we can all play that game if we want but some of us can string a coherent and intelligent sentence together without the need to stoop to that level ;)

(Off shopping now so feel free to mis-quote some more of my posts if it makes you all warm and calm inside ;) )

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Are you unable to separate the issue from my personal life? I find it disgusting and wrong, but, I do not believe government should make laws against it. Get it?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

so at last you admit it is wrong , so maybe we can get back on topic ;)

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

What does that matter? I said there exist some stupid laws in the United STates and Canada.

Not to be confused with where *I* live.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Well, as an immigrant I'm sure you'll be adhering to these laws. (apart from the one in Alabama, I'm still waiting for details on the others)

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

ohh what a surprise you have just sent me , just because i dont agree doesnt give the right to red rep me , so very very sad :(

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

But if there are no laws against it then certain misguided individuals will take that as a green light to indulge in such behaviour against minors - well there will be no laws discouraging them, will there?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

I'm eagerly anticipating mine! :D

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

the government should make laws against it!! i believe it wrong, but there's also all sorts of sick goings on in the world in this day and age. something should be done, i wouldn't want to see a couple snogging in the street, and one of the item sayin 'i love you mum' or 'i love you son' that would be totally revolting. However if they want to do that and must, they can do whatever they want behind closed doors. What people don't know won't hurt them

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

dont worry its not very powerful :D :D :D :D

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Whereas having laws against pedophelia today has eliminated the problem completely.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

You too? Join the "Oh boo hoo Jerrek doesn't like my opinion" group LOL
There have been posts pointed out in the past that were cropping quotes and taking them out of context Jerrek, if I find them for you then I'm sure you can amuse yourself by red repping the people involved.
Now back on topic :)
Incest, wrong... even in Canada

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

You know he's impressionable then, or do you just assume because he's 18 he must be impressionable, even though by this country's definition, he is an adult?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Jerrek, going along your morality line, how about murder then?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

so behind closed doors is ok , sorry but are you right or what , it is INCEST , it is illegal , it is dangerous for a child to be born from it :mad: :mad: :mad:

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Only if it's a consenting adult Xaccers ;)

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Peace!!! Don't have a go at me!!! :cry:
Just because he meets the legal definiton of an adult doesn't mean he is necessarily equipped to deal with this situation!

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Not at all - but it might dissuade some would be paedophiles from going along that route - and with laws against it, paedophiles can be punished.
You can't just have a law free country!

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

There are four states with laws against same gender sex. There are several states with laws against oral sex.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

I know it's wrong, nasty, extremely vexing and utterly revolting!! btu what can me thinking that do? NOTHING!! what have my thoughts and opinions done to be able to stop the two people involved? NOTHING!

it's incest and inbreeding, it is also occuring in a society where it is not acceptable. but think of the places in the world where the only resort they are left to (and i can't bear trying to imagine how they can) increase the population is incest. what our opinions are and what whatever we believe or hate, we can't stop it from occuring

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Murder is wrong: you infringe on someone's right.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Why is infringing someone's right wrong?
Why don't I have the right to kill someone?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Well, those are loaded questions that has been debated for millenia. I can refer you to Hobbes' Leviathan, Plato's Meno and Republic, Locke's Human Understanding, and Mill's On Liberty. Even with that, you may not find a conclusive answer. Perhaps because there is no conclusive answer and only faith.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Is it because infringing someone's right's is morally wrong?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Nope. For example, self defense.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

On this, I can *entirely* agree with you.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

They're trying to infringe on your right to live, isn't that morally wrong?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Has anyone else been red repped by someone who HASN'T posted to this thread?

That's very nasty and underhand to my mind.At least I'm contributing something to the thread even if you don't agree with my opinion. :(

It will be interesting to see what sentence she is given later in the month.As for him not being charged with the offence perhaps it was him could called the police or perhaps when he was questioned he agreed to errr... turn her in.

It's a very puzzling and I wonder how common a situation it is?I can't recall another case like it.

Incog.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Because it is *NOT* abuse and giving it an emotive label does not make it a fact.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Do you not consider incest to be 'abuse'?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Hmm! Good question Russ.

I think perhaps between an adult and a minor it is very clearly abuse.Between two adults I'm not sure.That's not because I condone it,it's because I'm not certain it is not so easy to abuse an adult as it is a child.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Whether between two adults, two minors or an adult and a minor, I'd still call it abuse.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Why is two adults consenting to sex abuse when related (parent-offspring/brother-sister) but not when strangers? :confused:


BTW I'd still like to know what the bible, or any other religious texts say about incest

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

No, I do not.

I've just read through this entire thread and I'm astonished at the level of blind prejudice being demonstrated by some people who I thought were beyond such things.

For the record, whatever other views of Jerrek's I may disagree with, on this subject I entirely agree with his points.

Yes, breeding children from incestuous relationships is genetically unwise at present because we cannot predict the results and risk the reinforcement of recessive genetic characteristics (although, curiously, we're quite happy to interbreed "pure" strains of animals to get desired characteristics, but that's another matter).

But we are not *talking* about children, either them being involved or them being the result of such relationship, despite the repeated attempts by some in this thread to claim that is what is under discussion.

These two people were *adults* according to the law and nobody was forced or coerced into acts they didn't want to do.

I have said before and I will say again that the majority *cannot* and *should not* be allowed to dictate what is "acceptable" for others to do when there are no "victims". We have seen too much of this in the past: "Homosexuality is wrong, prostitution is wrong, women being able to vote is wrong, inter-racial marriages are wrong, reading this is wrong, looking at that is wrong, thinking the other is most definitely wrong!"

Why should non-procreative sex between two consenting adults be classified as "abuse" or "wrong" just because they are related? "Because it's incest!" comes the reply. Well, yes, but that doesn't exactly answer the question, does it? It's wrong because it's incest and because it's incest, it's wrong. But that's just a circular argument that goes nowhere.

So can anyone who is against this come up with a logical and reasonable argument?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

I was just checking back and noticed this.

Under the new Sexual Offences Act 2003 all offences are "gender neutral".

http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/a...3/20030042.htm

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

http://www.rotten.com/library/religi...ancies/incest/

http://biblia.com/sex/masturbation.htm

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...ut/incest.html

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/incest.html

http://www.bible.org/docs/qa/qa.asp?StudyID=132

Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for the content of the links, I just typed 'Bible Incest' into Google because I felt sorry for Xaccers with no-one answering his question :D

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Just because you're a lot more broad minded than most of society doesn't detract from the fact that we find it utterly disgusting, the very thought of having sexual intercourse with a family member turns my stomach, answer me this, would you have sex with your mum? How about your dad? If the answer is "no, I'm not sexually attracted to them", how about if you were?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

AIUI under UK law the marriage is automatically annulled because it was not legal in the first place.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Before this thread turns into a red-rep slinging fiasco can we all just calm down and take a moment to think before we post?
Having been red reppped twice within this thread for voicing an opinion I'm getting to the point where I am thinking of asking for the thread to be temporarily closed while people are red repping for differing opinions. Red reps are not supposed to be dished out just because you don't agree with someones opinion and feel that your opinion is more valid.
Can we calm this thread down please

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Rape isn't. It clearly refers to person A (the rapist) as "he"

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Yes - I'm walking away from this one for being red repped for posting my opinion, which is what I thought a forum was all about?
AND my first one in over 2 years of posting! :mad:
Didn't realise you got red reps for daring to disagree with another forum member :(

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

yes i fear i am going to do the same , i am sorry but it is pretty sad to red rep someone for having an opinion , the 2 of you know who you are , such a sad day :(

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Are they charged with incest?
Are they no longer allowed to have a relationship?
What if they've had kids?

All interesting questions

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Fine, that's your opinion and your right and I'm not saying you can't hold that viewpoint. But it's not a logical and resonable argument, is it?

Whether I would or not is my own business. Whether I am attracted to them or not is my business. What I do about it is *nobody's* business but mine and my parents if it's between two consenting adults and not done for procreation.

Now you answer me this: What if I was a Roman Catholic and wanted to go out with a Protestant. How many people do you know who would *also* find that stomach turning? Or what if I was white and wanted to go out with a black girl? Or what if I wanted to go out with another man?

All of these have been "stomach turning" for some people in the past, yet, somehow, we have managed to be grown up enough about such things that we can get over our knee-jerk responses that it's automatically "wrong" if we try hard enough to open our minds.


(PS Should I have replied to this? I thought you didn't want me to contact you at all... :rolleyes: :rofl: )

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Interesting questions that may lead to answers that some people may not like or agree with but very valid questions. Anyone want to answer them though? :disturbd:

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

So we're back to Red repping on a difference of opinion ..... tut tut ...

Childish behaviour strikes again ....

Think this thread should calm down for a while before we start seeing an influx of reported post complaints .....

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Nice *cop out*

Absolutely none, sorry.

Again, I personally don't know anyone that would find that sickening, however, if I were to ask everyone one I meet if they thought it was ok for someone to give their own mum a stuffing, I'm willing to bet that nearly if not all of them would answer no.



Oh I see, if we don't find incest acceptable then we're immature, I don't want to get over my reaction to it, I'm sorry if I'm not as mature as you because I find such an act depraved.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

From the Interpretation Acts 1978:

1. This Act, which came into force on 1 January 1979, consolidates the Interpretation Act 1889 and certain other enactments relating to the construction and operation of Acts of Parliament and other instruments.

2. Section 6 provides that words importing the masculine gender include the feminine (and vice versa).

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

AIUI from a previous discussion 1) No, I believe there is a specific exception allowed if consanguinity was not known. 2) Not a sexual one because they would then knowingly be committing an offence. 3) I believe they can still bring up the kids.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Why do you consider it a "cop out"? What business is someone's private life to anyone else if nobody is hurt (*unconsentingly*!)?

However to try to answer your question on a strictly impartial basis in a discussion of the simple issues, I do not consider *any* sexual relationship between consenting adults to be "wrong".

I admit that my knowledge of the situation in (Northern) Ireland is, of course, entirely based on "hearsay" and what has been shown on TV (which may not completely accurately represent the actual situation), but I have to say that I consider this rather surprising, although pleasing.

But, on a general level, would you not agree that there are some who *would* consider such a relationship to be, at the least, "unacceptable"?

Yet, again, would you not agree that there are some who would?

I'm sure that's the case. But I am also sure that that would be an "automatic" reaction based on a "knee-jerk" response. I don't think many of them would (or could) even consider such a question in an objective or rational manner.

Yet again, however, I have to point out that inter-religious, inter-racial or same gender relationships have equally been considered to be equally as "depraved".

There was no rational or logical reason for such opinions, merely that they were "unacceptable" or "against gods law" or "revolting". In the same way I have yet to see any rational or logical reason for an objection to "incestuous" relationships that do not involve procreation.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Because they can do .... ??

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

I hate to say it but broadly speaking, I agree with Graham :disturbd:
Our (that includes me) aversion to events under discussion is mostly down to taboos/tradition/religion or 'morals' (whatever the hell they are).
Objectively, this boils down to two consenting adults, no matter how sick/twisted/depraved we find it.
.............and thats all I'm going to say about this :erm:

(probably said enough already)

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

You're confused. I don't, and neither do Graham I'm sure, find incest acceptable. BUT, it is none of my, his, or your business if someone were to engage in such activities. Just because YOU don't find it acceptable and because the majority of other people don't does not warrant legislating against it. Unless you support Hitler and the holocaust perhaps, because he was elected by a majority and the majority did support what he was doing...

No. It does not work that way.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Wrong - I'd make it my business if I discovered two members of my immediate family were engaged in such activities. Why would I make it my business? because its NOT acceptable for close relations to be involved in such an activity.

On a second note and moving aside this topic for a moment, I am becoming increasingly irritated by the people who are NOT using the reputation as it was intended, any further silly or unwarranted red repping, those members responsible will have their reputation giving/taking abilities removed.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

I find the idea of this happening disgusting. Um - I can't add any more than that really.

I'm NOT surprised that it goes on - although I AM surprised that it has been picked up in this case - because I'm SURE it goes on a lot more than is being let on.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

So you support gay marriage now?

This has provoked a very passionate response probably based on gut reaction. I've seen two reasons for illegality as to prevent genetic disturbances and to prevent sex grooming, which seem like very good reasons to me. Anyone know the length of the jail sentence possible for this offence?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Fantastic post, you amaze me more and more every day. Remember, when you speak out against incest, you're in league with Hitler!

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

That's where we differ then, I have at least some morals it appears, and yes, that's surprised me too.

Bit of a poor example from an even more poorly researched subject then.

Yes there are, and they also turn my stomach, I can only assume that the people who are speaking out for instead of against incest do not have children and I personally I hope they never do.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

An interesting article on this subject can be found HERE

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Jerrek, after reading your replys here, it makes me seem like your trying to be the smarta*se of us all, and to think you know it all.

Well I wouldn't think this is right, did the son want it? I wouldn't count on it, so it would really be illegal, because she did it without his consent.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Maybe they should issue them to chavs with their Monday books then! :erm: :angel:

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

taken from interpol:

children:

in general:

Criminal proceeding may only be instituted with the consent of the provincial Attorney General. Such a decision will be taken following considerations of matter such as the extra-territorial element of the offence and the possible impact on relations between states.

*The offences listed in subsection 7(4.1) are:

s. 151 sexual interference;

s. 152 invitation to sexual touching;

s. 153 sexual exploitation;

s. 155 incest

http://www.interpol.int/Public/Child.../csaCanada.asp




it IS wrong. even if the law was changed that has no bearing to what i think.


what has this got to do with the debate ?

a homosexual relationship has no relavence to this topic.

we are not all robots.

its about what you think is right and wrong, and to me having sex with your own flesh and blood is categorically undeniably wrong.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Yes, they can, however, is that actually a *definitive* reason?

Firstly I'd point out that whilst, yes, there is a risk of "bad genes" being re-inforced, it's *not* going to be the case that the baby is born with three heads or some such.

As I mentioned back when I started contributing to this thread, we think little of interbreeding related animals to "fix" a desired genetic trait (even if it's only black spots on a dalmatian or to get a faster race horse) and yet there are no masses of "hideous mutant animals" appearing.

Secondly, whilst we make jokes about banjos etc, the fact is that this is more the result of *repeated* inbreeding in a limited gene pool, not just a single instance of incest. As such, it doesn't really hold up the argument.

Thirdly, whilst, again, "bad genes" could be reinforced, is such a thing necessarily a good argument for preventing a couple from having a baby?

What about haemophilia, cystic fibrosis or other congenital conditions? Surely these are *more* hazardous to a potential child, but whilst I may not object to incest, you can be damned sure I'll object to Eugenics!

So, in conclusion, I don't really think that "because they can do....??" holds water as an adequate justification for banning incest.

Still, at least someone's tried to look at it logically :)

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Again we hear that it's "not acceptable", but again we don't hear any reasons *why*!

If it is between two consenting adults and *not* for procreation (although see my post just above) *WHY* is it "not acceptable"??

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Well spotted DQ, so do you now support gay marriages, or at least the rights of gay people to get married?

Oh and just a thought but were you bullied at school Jerrek? :erm:

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

That you feel you do have morals or that I, according to your lights, don't?

Either way (and this is of course, only my opinion!), despite what some may claim, I don't think that such things as "morals" are graven in stone anywhere. There is no "absolute right" just as there is no "absolute wrong".

Morals are "tribal beliefs" which have been been around for so long and are so taken for granted that some (too many) people mistake them for "natural laws".

Perhaps the example would be improved if I said that I was going to walk down the Garvachy (sp?) Road saying that Catholics and Protestants should be able to get married and have kids etc.

How many positive responses do you think I would get then?!

See my post above for more on this subject.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Some interesting (and, it has to be said, some odd) opinions put forward in this entire thread but still the fact remains, a sexual relationship or encounter between mother and son (or between any 2 members of immediate family) absolutely repulses me.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

i agree, i also find it odd how people seem to be dare i say it accepting something like this 'to be ok' :erm:

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Gay people can get married. Find a nice girl (if you're a guy) and marry her. Equal rights.

I do also support repealing all special treatment given to married couples though. Anyone can use the words civil union, but the word marriage is reserved for one man and one woman, by definition.

No. I wrestle and do some martial arts since I was 5 and know how to beat the daylights out of someone. What does this have to do with the subject at hand?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

:confused:

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Its funny how the exact same thing was said 50 years ago, and in some parts of the world today, about inter-racial marrying. Just go down to some very conservative parts in the U.S. and ask them what they think of a white woman getting nailed by a big black guy. They think it is disgusting and repulsive.

Should we outlaw interracial marriages now because some people think it is disgusting?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Do I have to spell it out??

GayGuy01 walks up to NiceGirl01 and asks to get married.
Priest01 performs marriage ceremony.
GayGuy01 is now married to NiceGirl01.

Any guy, gay or straight, can get married.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

:confused:

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

to quote yourself ;

Why don't you tell us why it *is* acceptable ?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

*pulls up a deckchair, gets comfy and awaits with baited breath :D

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

HOW HARD CAN IT BE TO UNDERSTAND IT?

Straight guy scenario: StraightGuy01 marries Woman01.
Gay guy scenario: GayGuy01 marries Woman02.

See? Anyone can get married. Nothing prevents a gay guy from marrying a woman. Nothing.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

You are making a Burden of Proof error. It is not up to us to show it is acceptable, but up to you to show it isn't. You don't make certain acts illegal and then place the burden of proof on people to prove that it shouldn't be illegal, rather, you must justify when you blatantly revoke a person's freedoms.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

The reason i asked was that you don't seem to know what you want. In this thread you don`t want the government to legislate on moral issues yet in other threads you want the government to ban gay marriage!

But ha ho back to the topic at hand. :rolleyes:

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Rubbish. Where did you dream up that rule from?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

So you're saying every single action a man can possibly do should be illegal, until proven it is acceptable?

Yeah. That will work.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

What on Earth are you babbling on about? We are talking about the sexual activity here between a mother and son. Mothers do not have sex with their children and children do not have sex with their parents, no matter how old they are or what freedoms they have, you may find it acceptable, but I think its bloody sick.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

And because King Mick feels it is sick it should be illegal?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Don't get lippy with me, 'sunshine'. I'm asking you to explain why in one instance you say anyone can get married whereas in the next you state that marriage by definition is for a man and a woman.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Jerrek has always made his position clear on these subject- I remember from a thread several months ago.

As I remember Jerrek believes that any kind of sex (and marriage) between two consenting adults, no matter their relationship, should be a matter for them, and them alone.

I don't have a problem with the first view point. As long as no innocent 3rd parties are involved.

The marrriage thing.........Nah

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

What prevents the government allowing same sex married couples??? Is it a recieved morality?

Fine then, a mother is free to have sex with anyone but her son

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

It's because they still believe traditional 'family values' to be the best option.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

It's not just 'King Mick' that thinks it sick, 'Sick Puppy Jerrek'.... As on this thread, it seems everone but you thinks so too. And laws are made to benefit the majority...

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

That's a very narrow point of view.What if the couple decide to have children?Because that's what loving couples do is it not?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Are they now? Assuming that in this instance everything was done with consent, how exactly are you being protected by this prosecution?

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Apart from all those couples who actively decide that they aren`t going to have children. I know plenty of couples who have adopted that stance.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

What absolute tosh. The mass majority believe it unacceptable, therefore it is up to you to show it is acceptable.

Of course, you cannot, so you just bluster that it is not up to you. :rolleyes:

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Yes but are they all committing incest?Let's stick to the topic please.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Jerrek appears to be suggesting that if a Gay man (or woman) wants to marry, they should suppress their sexual urges and marry somebody else of the opposite gender. Either that or just try and enjoy sex with a member of the opposite sex, in effect, becoming bisexual (assuming one can become bisexual rather than being born bisexual).

I personally think the suppression idea is bad, as in my experiance most people cannot suppress their sexual urges for any great length of time so will be tempted to go off and cheat on their partner. I personally think that if you are going to cheat on someone, you should not marry them.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. As stated before, I personally believe the mother and son were both wrong in this case. And it does look especially odd as there is a history of abuse in the family.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

I was merely replying to a point you made about having children, so please don`t attempt to play the role of topic moderator when someone is responding to post you made.

Your point was what if the couple decide to have children as a result of incest. I am pointing out that many couples in a normal relationship actively decide not to have children, so I fail to see your point. Your original comment almost suggests that it is inevitable that if someone is in a relationship they are going to have children.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

Because King Jerrek has decided that the definition of marriage under the law, for reasons I can only assume are due to morality, is "a union between a man and a women".

Therefore perhaps change the definition of sex under the law, as "the act of sexual intercourse between people not of the same immediate family" will solve the problem.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

I am being protected by not having to live in a society where people think it's alright to screw your own kid, or even produce deformed mongs of children.

Re: Mum had sex with son
 

I'm not interested in the legal implications - I am more concerned about the effects of such activities on the rest of the immediate family. Appears to me that you do not have any family values, how sad.