Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Err ... correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that page, after labelling regulations on banana curvature to be a myth, go on to say that the EU has made a directive concerning the curvature of bananas? :confused:


I think we need to be very careful with our terminology here, because it is for certain that B. Liar and others are going to continue their tactic of denouncing those with anti-EU leanings as 'myth-makers' and 'doom-sayers' rather than grappling with the issues.

Fact: There is an EU directive which determines how curved bananas are allowed to be. This is not a myth. It happened. It is the law.

Fact: The EU believes it is reasonable for this directive to exist, in the name of harmonising the differing nationally set standards of banana quality that previously existed.

If the EU wants to claim that the Sun's claim is a myth ('A fictitious story, person, or thing,' according to Dictionary.com) the only way they can do that is by showing that there is no such directive. Clearly they cannot do this. Instead of crying 'myth!', what they ought to be doing, and what Tony B. Liar and other pro-EU people should be doing, is to stop apologising for the EU and start saying why it is a good thing.

For example, debate: Is banana curvature sufficiently important that we need a separate decision-making organisation in Brussels and Strasbourg to rule on it? What is wrong with national Governments making such rulings? Does it really put the single markey in jepoardy if bananas sold in the UK are slightly more curved than those that may be sold in France?

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

I know it is true but the myth is the way in which it is reported it was asked for but the members and so it was done. It was not some crackpot who decided to make lives difficult. The EU works for the nations inside it and those inside have a say on such laws many oh which are ineffective when applied to one country. Such as having a european standand for something oor another.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Granted, but that's not what that website says. It says:

This is a lie. The claim is not a myth. And that is one of the problems I have with the EU and those who would promote it. They find it very difficult to be proud of what they are trying to achieve and to be honest about how they are going about it. If the EU is so good, why don't they stand up and say, 'Hey, we made a rule about curved bananas, and it's just as well we did, because ...[insert reason here]'? Instead, they sulk in the corner, and grumble, 'It's a myth that bananas must not be excessively curved', which is palpably not true.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

er, no, unless you are a banana importer, when you suddenly find you need different bananas for different markets, the whole point of such legislation is that if a banana can be sold in England it can be sold in France or Germany...

For you or I doing our weekly shop at Tesco pah, but for tesco signing a contract with Carribian Bannana imports inc, it makes life easier.

Though on the flip side the EU working time regs must make thier lives magnitudes more difficult than the banana issue.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

If that is the case, why can we not hear an unapologetic defence of it from those with pro-EU leanings? Blair has been dithering about promoting Europe for seven whole years. He has the nerve to stand up now and define the debate as 'myth versus reality', but he has allowed those with anti-EU leanings to shape and define the debate for years. He can hardly be surprised by what he finds. How on earth does he expect to turn opinion round, after giving his opponents such a huge head start? If he fails to win the constitution referendum, he won't have to look far to find someone to blame.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Ok, you`re wrong ;)

Nowhere in the following text does it talk about banana curvature. It merely states that they are classified according to "quality and size".

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

You got me. The whole point of the common market approach is the design once concept. It's not truly necessary though as you can build to the highest standard and make a global product. This is what IKEA does, and why you see so many approval stamps on their packaging and image only instructions. I suppose the problem arises where you have two contradictory standards, possible for bananas, where us Brits might want straight ones, and the french curvy ones, but unlikely for fire retardancy etc.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

lol, ok you got me - it's alluded to rather than stated explicitly. The website refers to the relevant legislation, whose title does not itself use the word 'curvature'. The legislation itself, however, does use the word 'curvature'. (bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers," Commission Regulation 2257/94 - download it in PDF format at: http://www.defra.gov.uk/hort/hmi/com.../x_bananas.pdf )

So they are contradicting themselves, unless that is they are denying that the regulations say anything about curvature - in which case they are not so much incompetent as outright liars.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Saying it is a 'lie' is a bit harsh

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

How about, "economical with the truth" ( it's a lie):p:

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Saying something is one thing when clearly it isn't is a lie.


Talking of fruit regulations, I remember a fair few years back down at the local market a fruit stall was selling some variety of orange.
EU inspector checked their size and found they were too large so would be illegal for him to sell them.
Fine thought the stall owner, I'll give them to all the OAP's at my mum's old people's home.
No, not allowed to do that, because they were larger than the EU standard they had to be destroyed as they were "unfit for human consumption"
I can't remember which bit of legislation relates to this, but its the one which was created to give Italian orange growers an advantage.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Morons, the lot of them. The EU is a bureaucrat's paradise.

Try looking into the same one I quoted above, it might be a kind of catch-all fruity directive.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Now what was the one which declared carrots as fruit?


Here we go:

COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2001/113/EC of 20 December 2001relating to fruit jams, jellies and marmalades and sweetened chestnut purÃÃâ€*’©e intended for human consumption

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

How the hell can fruit be too big? Doesn't suprise me though. I remember the EU passing legislation no less, on how bendy bananas should be.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

This is all fascinating :rolleyes:


But I'd rather be hearing examples of what Brussels can and can't make us do.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

I see you have read the whole thread then,;)

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

This is really stupid now. Bloody bananas

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

So you agree that some EU legislation is really stupid?

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Heh,heh,they give you flatulence! :D


Incog. ;)

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Yes, but I dont think this is a big issue it was asked for by minsters. The EU has passed many laws on human rights and such

I know theres bad but theres also good and this needs to be reported more rather than the negitive side getting most of the press

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

I think somewhere in guidance notes (maybe the Trading Standards or someone elses) the curvature is defined in degrees.

Yes but some is really good and our country is a better place for the EU forcing us to clean up our beaches, more competitive through the EU driven deregulation of Airlines and Telecoms. Food hygene has probably been increased (even if we follow the rules overzelously).

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

This is yet another problem with the EU. Britain has more than enough lunatic bureaucrats of its own (remember, it's British customs and excise that just can't handle the concept of there being no personal allowance for booze and fags - it's them, not the EU, that takes the guidance figure above which you might have reason to be suspicious and applies it as law).

We don't need another level of bureaucracy making up lunatic laws for our own civil servants to beat us round the head with.

There are definitely benefits of being in the EU. I am not in favour of outright withdrawl and my support for UKIP is a protest device intended to influence the policies of the main political parties in the UK. I suspect I am not the only one expressing my political 'influence' in this way. Telecoms is an interesting one though. Given the 80s Tory policy of privatising everything in sight, can deregulation of telecoms in the UK really be attributed to the EU? Did we not get there first, or if we didn't, would we not have done it shortly afterwards anyway?

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

The 80s tory policy has been seen as a template for the rest of europe. It has indicated what should and will work in a privatised environment (Rail, Telco), what shoudl work (Gas, Electric, Water) though needs sufficient price control that infrastructure repair and investment is possible, and what does not work - Rail - or at least does not work in the model used.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

So, when Europe enthusiasts point to EU directives requiring deregulation of the telecoms market, in such a way as to imply that we should be grateful, they are in fact neglecting to mention that we got there first, and the rest of Europe adopted it because we already did, and proved it worked? If that's the case, it pours just a little cold water on the standard defence of EU interference in domestic policy issues: that the dynamic EU is well placed to kick indolent national governments into improving things.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

So we just get rid of bereaucracy at the civil service level and go with the European equivalent. These situations don`t necessarily imply more bureaucracy if a country is willing to shift responsibilities around a little.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Civil service reform is an interesting topic in its own right but something that could be carried out without membership of the EU. I tend to think, however, that there is a British bureaucratic mindset that would manifest itself regardless of how Government is administered.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

However the partially privatised EU has then allowed still nationalised institutions to take advantage of these privatised entities and become european champions with the protection that they themselves cannot be taken over. Electricitie de France EdF, being a prime case, buying generation capacity throughout europe, but, for example AES a big American Generator being unable to buy them, or buy significant generating capacity in France (in the way they bought Drax, the largest power station in the UK). This actually means that the UK is now dependant on EdF and the undersea transmission cable to mainland europe for power generation. Get into a war with France and they could switch our power off!

Thankfully it has also ensured the failiure of some entities such as Sabina, which the indolent national government would have carried on propping up.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

It is this whole sphere of open markets where the EU ought to do best. The problem for me has always been that they choose to define their remit so widely and with such a swathe of regulation. The curvature of bananas is a trivial example, but really, is there a need for anyone, at national or EU level, to make up such rules? If a market trader or supermarket sells manky bananas, the average shopper has the nous to simply not buy them. A free and open market would function best regulated only by laws and directives designed to enforce openness. Once everything is open and transparent, the market can regulate itself. But of course, the single European market is not an open market, it is a tightly controlled one and designed, in large measure, to keep inefficient French peasant farmers in clover thanks to the CAP.

Some smart-ar$e professor writing in the Independent earlier in the week attempted to repudiate the usual Eurosceptic claim that 'we only voted for a Common Market' by pointing out that what we actually voted in favour of was signing up to the Treaty of Rome - the document that contains that nebulous phrase, 'ever-closer union'. I don't buy that. That might have been the technical result of a 'yes' vote, but Europe was clearly sold to the people as a Common Market and nothing else, and in that case we have a pretty good claim that we are victims of the biggest mis-selling scandal of all time.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Another snippet to delight all UK taxpayers..

If it was a mystery why the new EU member states last weekend all fell so meekly into line on the new constitution - of which several, notably Poland, had earlier been highly critical - one explanation may have been Wednesday's little-noticed announcement that, over the next two years, Brussels is to give them a staggering £16 billion in extra subsidies (more than £1 billion of this from UK taxpayers). Half of this goes to Poland, a good chunk of it to rebuild the Polish fishing fleet which will soon enjoy "equal access" to UK fishing waters.

from today's papers.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

More potentially bad news for UK taxpayers.

here

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Great, another EU own goal. Keep it up, you bungling Eurocratic idiots, and you'll help our referendum 'no' campaign no end :tu: :D :rofl: :)

We pay the European Union TEN BILLION POUNDS every year for the privilege of having them tell us how to fish in our national waters, how to sell bananas, which parts of the UK to re-develop, access to the common market and, if they had their way, how to run our economy. Now they want us to increase that to up to TWENTY BILLION POUNDS. It's extortion.

:grind: :grind: :mad: :mad: :afire:

EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

the £2bn rebate britain recieves from the EU is being discussed.

as britain is the biggest contributer to europes coffers margret thatcher's deal back in the 80s meant that britain would recieve money back as it is the biggest contributer.

but now due to the expansion of the EU the EU's budget minister wants to create a system to rebate other members who contribute.

the british argument is that other countries get far more in subsidy's in the industries such as agriculture, so britain should retain the rebate.

source: BBC news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3892527.stm

the EU is good for us ?

btw the plans the EU has is to either reduce or scrap britains rebate.

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

I'm a complete Europhile. This is a very small amount of our budget and I couldn't actually care about losing it. The more integration the better, and the less chance of another European war. Stopping that alone makes the EU good for us and worthwhile.

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

:rolleyes:

£2bn is small :rolleyes: i think the economy would miss it, ok i dont know where its spent but atleast its coming back to us, remember we are the biggest contributers not looking for handouts like other countries.

i think we deserve the cash back not because its ours but we are still contributing to europe.

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

Hmm, I dunno, some of those countries have huge problems. I think helping them through their problems is great. I know we have our own problems but a lot of people in these countries live in poverty, and in comparison, the money would be spent on us for luxury items, not essential ones.

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

What, you mean luxuries like a national health service that lets you get your operation before you die and a transport infrastructure that allows you to get where you need to be without sitting in a 60-minute traffic jam every day of the week? £2 billion may be a small amount of our overall budget but it is still a very large amount of money indeed.

As far as general arguments for European integration go, stopping wars might well have been a worthy aim 50 years ago but this has little relevance to today's situation. Nuclear missiles managed to prevent a war with a country that was highly motivated to invade us - the USSR - so the fact that both the UK and France still have nukes would be more than adequate to stop any war between the major European powers, even if there was the merest hint of a motivation to go to war, which of course there isn't. Don't forget the role of NATO in keeping the peace also.

No, I'm afraid 'preventing war' is just another one of those 'integration is inevitable because the alternative is unthinkable' arguments that seeks to scare people into closer integration, conveniently removing the need to prove positive benefits.

Anyway, to return to the original question - the rebate is ours to keep because we have a veto on the EU budget. (Something else we would lose if certain Europhile politicins had their way). It's becoming an issue because the Eurocrats are beginning to realise that Poland and the other countries that have just joined the club are likely to prove to be a bottomless financial pit, and France is not prepared to consider the single biggest scandal in the entire EU budget - the so-called Common Agricultural Policy - because it is bankrolling that country's entire, inefficient peasant farming industry.

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

What the hell has that got to do with it.

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

This was mentioned in post #130 in the merged Euro thread.
Now you can exercise your powers Chris and merge this one as well.

BTW, how do you spell politicians. :rolleyes: ;) :)

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

Hey I'm all for improving the lot of the less fortinuate in the world. But I do take exception at having to support everyone else, while getting less back. Macca, if you want to subsidise Polish farmers, go work in Poland and pay the Polish government some tax. I already pay enough tax for the British government to p!$$ away thanks very much.

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

Wow, it worked! Thread merged. :D

Clearly I'm better at using the thread tools than I am at spelling. :dunce:

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

Quite a lot actually

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

countries will hate each other regardless of currencys or constitutions.....

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

The EU has open borders, with no passport control or whatever, and more people now move around Europe than ever before, improving relations between all the countries.

Everywhere around the EU you see the flag, I even saw it on an advert the other day. It is also outside hotels, town halls, whatever.

Subtle changes like this make a huge difference.

Also, if we do eventually give control of our military to brussels, and other countries do, then there will be no danger of us being attacked from these countries.

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

you mean your passports are not checked ? also by them doing that immigrants are coming through the system in to this country...

people do that to meet loved ones, go on holiday, just go on a trip in general, nothings stopping that...

the eu flag ? not around here, as for the adverts they normally promote european destinations......

Subtle changes like this make a huge difference.

im sorry but military related issues should be sovereign to the country it belongs to, ie the british military is in british control!

Re: EU attempts to rebunk british rebate
 

you mean your passports are not checked ? also by them doing that immigrants are coming through the system in to this country...

people do that to meet loved ones, go on holiday, just go on a trip in general, nothings stopping that...

the eu flag ? not around here, as for the adverts they normally promote european destinations......

politics is politics.

im sorry but military related issues should be sovereign to the country it belongs to, ie the british military is in british control!

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Exactly. And by travelling, they are meeting people, getting to know places, etc...

Well here, the EU flag is almost everywhere. Look at my town website: www.heywood.org.uk
And yesterday I saw an EU anti-smoking advert

Yes, the military is what makes a country seperate from another. At that stage, the EU stops becoming a union and starts becoming a superstate. To me, I'm not bothered. I don't know how people can be 'proud' of their country. They just happened to be born in a place which people called 'Britain'. Nothing to be proud about, if anything, the British Empire stands for cruelty and slavery. I really don't mind who governs me, as long as I have my freedom.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

Not round here it ain't. I often wondered why Heywood was known as "Monkeytown" in this area.:p: ;)

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

I bet there are more than you imagine. Keep an eye out for them.

As for Heywood well I think it lives up to the name 'monkey town'. Nowhere else do all the grown adults not even look whilst crossing the road.

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

I actual fact, I have been a service engineer for over 35 years, driving all round the Greater Manchester area, including Heywood. So I say again, no there are not large numbers of Euro flags flown around here, plenty of the red cross of St George though.

I was born in Rochdale and my grandfather always told me that all the barstools in Heywood had holes in them so the monkeys could put their tails through, you also had to be careful when closing doors in Heywood in case you trapped a tail in the door.:p:

Re: [Merged] The Europe Thread
 

An interesting article here . do you really want closer ties with these 'crooks'

And it was ex Labour luvvie, Kinnoch who sacked the woman who exposed the frauds.:(