Re: School helped secret abortion
 

tell me why she should not, ultimately its going to come out shes pregnant, yes she decided to keep it after consultation with her mother but this is where parents provide the nessecary support that councillors can not bring, remember family your own parents are the real support network.




no im not im just reminding you that parents have the ultimate responsability 'over' the child NOT the school NOT the teachers when it comes to these matters.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

From what I've read it was the school health worker that helped the girl, nothing to do with teachers.
You obviously know nothing about abortion clinics, you don't just turn up saying "hey, give me an abortion", you have to convice two doctors that its what you want and that there is sufficiant reason to abort.
These clinics do not take abortions lightly!

And no the parents shouldn't be involved, yes the mother should be encouraged to inform her parents, but confidentiality must be maintained.
There are thousands of 14 year old mothers out there because they had the child rather than tell their parents they were pregnant.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

I can see where you are coming from but I would sue the balls off anyone who medically interfered with my underage daughter without my consent.


...edit....we can say 'balls' :D

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

On what legal grounds?

I'd be more concerned that my daughter felt that she couldn't come to me.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

you think i didnt know that :dozey:

also i am aware that abortions are not taken lightly, im not a fan of them myself.

i just dont understand, the parents will have to look after the kid while she is getting educated, unless alternatives are sought..........

personally for me i think its too young to have kids, and also i think it will just cause problems, i think when the baby arrives and she wants to go out with her freinds etc the baby will be seen as hinderence, not in all cases but it happens.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

You know I've seen so many comments about feckless uncaring parents made on this site.Now you all seem to be saying lets ignore all parents because of the feckless few!!

The government can't have it both ways.They can't sue because parents condone truancy and then turn round and deny parents the right and duty to be involved in such decisions.If this carries on then all parents are to become what?Irelevant?

I think I'm going to have to unsubscribe before I really get to namecalling.Some of you are just not thinking things through.Stop empathising and start thinking about long term issues.:(

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

The grounds that she is a minor, ultimately under my protection. Especially if she then suffered from the possible side effects.

Absolutely! :tu:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

as i pointed out in a diffarent way...........

but nooooooo lets have the state do it all :erm:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Legally her medical history is confidential, you have no right as a parent to be informed.
If she chooses to inform you, fine, if not, then you'll never know.
My ex had an abortion at 16, her family have no idea.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Incog, what's the latin saying? In loco parentus? Means when they children are at school, the teachers are considered their guardians/parents?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

afaik the medical history is confidental at 16....not 14

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Damn straight!

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

It's not put in your medical history, nor are any visits to GUM clinics.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Eh? Explain please...... :confused:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Oh NO! not that one.

I'm in loco parentis but I'd only go as far as a life or death situation in regards to that phrase.Abortions don't count.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

If you have to tell parents then in the event of a problem at home children will have NO ONE to turn to NO ONE.

We can not allow that to happen

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Abortions and GUM clinic visits are not kept in your medical history.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Exactly.
Health workers will inform the parents unless the child forbids it, but they will do everything in their power to get the child to give permission for the parents to be involved.
But what if the parents are involved and force the girl to not have an abortion, even though she wants one? Is that right?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

No, which is why I said that parents should not be told if the child does not want to. More troubling is if a child is being abused and cannot go any where as there parents would know and such.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Well in that case social services would be involved and it is a whole new ball game after that.However why should good,caring parents be cut out of the loop because of a few bad parents?I'm positive that's NOT what the government envisaged.


Incog.Still posting despite her misgivings.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Because even good caring parents can presurise their daughter into doing something they don't want to do.

Reverse the question, why should some children suffer because most parents are good and caring, but they've been cursed with ones who will beat the crap out of them if they told them they were pregnant?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

but sometimes children might find it really difficult to talk to good parents about stuff (especially conceding the subject matter) there should always be another way for young people

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Oh!Like what?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Giving up or not giving up a baby

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

And that would be wrong because......?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

the child should be the one to choose thats why!!

yes im talking about the 14 year old!

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

it should be the girls choice after she has been given all the information possible

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Hmm, lets see, some people don't cope very well with the trauma of having a baby and then giving it up.
Or having a baby and being forced to keep it?

Those two wrong enough for you incog? :mad:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

At 16 maybe.At 14 I'm dubious though kronas that a 14 year old can make such a choice without support.Support from a stranger when there are good,kind loving parents to give long term support.

Ah well what do I know about it eh? I'm only a fat 51 year old secondary teacher with 30 years teaching behind me and a mother to a 21 year old daughter and a 15 year old son.I know nowt of course. :rolleyes:

Thank goodness you lot don't run the country....Yet!!! :D

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

thats what i have been saying!!!!!

but nope, no, everyone thinks a 14 year old can make all the decisions such as these, with counsillors, i mean who are the parents ? the mother gave her life(helped by the father), she has been fed, clothed, given what she needed.....

but yes who are they parents :scratch:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

So you think that abusive parents should be informed so that they can beat the crap out of their daughters then?

Girls in this situation are encouraged to inform their parents, if the girl doesn't want that (and lets face it, if anyone knows whether the parents are likely to react in a bad way it's the girl) then why should the parents be informed?

But what do we know? We're just people who can see the dangers involved in informing some parents :rolleyes:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

I know a 19 year old woman.
She was raped by her boyfriend and is pregnant.
She wanted an abortion.
His and her parents have threatened her with violence and are forcing her to marry him.
If parents can do that to a 19 year old, think how easy it could be done to a 14 year old.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

wtf......at any age?!?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

That is terrible, but, as I said...there are plenty of 'what if's' The point still remains....she is a minor. :dozey:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

remind me to shoot you lot when you complain about teenage pregnancy's :rolleyes:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

She can get help from councilors

Either way there is a choice and surely the person who it will effect most should make that choice. If in later life it turns out to be a wrong choice then it would be better for that choice to have been made by the individual rather than the parents

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Excuse me but if a child is being abused then social services will be able to deal with the situation.

What you are advocating is that ALL parents shouldn't be told irrespective of whether that they are good parents that WON'T necessarily force the child to do what she doesn't want to.You are also suggesting that this is something that teachers,health workers and school councilors should decide alone with no reference to anyone else?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

They CANNOT force her if she doesn't want to as a 19 year old is a legal adult.You are just getting emotive here and dragging in any old BS to support your case.However it doesn't support it at all.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Look, Children should have a option to go to in the event that they dont want to go to their parents. If the child doesn't want the parents involved then they may have a good reason.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Excuse me, but how dare you say this is bull****!
She is being forced into it, she has been emotionally run down and is too scared to go to the police and without her assistance they cannot help.

As for if parents are abusing children and social services dealing with it, what if it's a parent who isn't abusing the kids, but the kids know or fear that they would be seriously beaten or disowned (I'm pretty sure disowning your children isn't illegal).

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Have you not read what I've put???
What part of "health workers will do everything in their power to get the girl to inform her parents" did you miss?
What you are advocating is exposing girls to the risk of threats and violence because MOST parents are good, but you don't seem to care that there are daughters out there who don't have good parents, they have ****ty parents who will beat them, or disown them, throwing them out on the street. Sure social services can give them a roof over their head, but they can't give them their family back.
You seem to be under the impression the abortion isn't something that the girl doesn't have a say in.
The health worker and clinic staff including the doctor explain the proceedure and have to be sure that the girl understands and definitely wants an abortion, and certain that she doesn't want her parents involved.
You seem to be suggesting the school staff drag the girl to the abortion and it's done there and then with no discussion with the girl!

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

I have to agree, if the parents are good then the kids will go to them anyway if not then it shouldn't be forced

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Because it is a red herring and has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing here which is about minors not adults.I'm sorry for the woman but she is an adult.

I think you are focusing on a really narrow issue here.It may be the case for a FEW children but I hope you will allow that it doesn't apply in EVERY case.Not every parent is to be excluded surely?Because that is what you would be seem to be saying.

Incog.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

That's the point! She's an adult. and if an adult can be presured into not having an abortion which she wanted, and even pressured into marrying someone, then the same can be done to a 14 year old girl!

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

How dare you.How do you know what I care about?

I've seen some sickening situations in my time so don't imagine you and only you understand what bad and evil parents do.NO I'm not going to tell them here.They are not mine to relate

Frankly we are just getting too emotive here so I'm going to unsubscribe now.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Yet you still think those parents should be informed their daughter is pregnant? :shocked:

bye

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Calm down people ......

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Obviously...they are children and as such are capable of making those big, weighty decisions for themselves :rolleyes:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

If she is 14yo....? YES! 16....maby....18.....no....

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Even if that resulted in her being disowned and thrown out on the street?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Trying to be emotive there? If she was thrown out then social services would take her in. All I am saying is that if a person is a minor then their ultimate wellbeing rests with their parents. Yes, their parents may well be t*ssers....and if thats the case then social will maby be aware of that and act accordingly but in this case we don't know either way.....so assuming the mother was 'decent', how does she feel now that her daughter has had a baby terminated without the parents being informed of the situation? How would you feel if your 14yo, or 10yo child had some medical procedure performed on them without your prior knowledge or consent?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Aside from all the rights and wrongs in this case (which i'm not even going into) I just find it really sad that she felt she couldn't go to her mother!

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

thank you, the voice of reason has landed in this thread :rolleyes:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

As Ramrod and I have said, we totally agree Chimera.
I'd be more concerned for my daughter's current health and that she felt she couldn't talk to me, or her mother.
I'd be wondering how I'd failed as a parent to put her in that position of not being able to tell us.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

yes, so why exactly are we discussing the point of her actually telling her parents or not telling them.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

I think it's more a case of the part the school played Kronie!
(Not wishing to start it all up again)

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

well some people think they did the right thing, i made my standpoint clear, parents should have been notified.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Even if that could have resulted in her parents disowning her or worse?
As has been pointed out to me by a friend, some cultures put unmaried girls/women to death to spare their shame.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

yes i was reading your comments and raising my eyelid at the cultural tone of them, so if some men or women so much as look at another man or women in other cultures they 'severely' get punished, so you stop going out and talking to people, yes its a bit extreme......

you get my idea.

everyone is diffarent, people behave diffarently, im sure social services would want to take note if the parents were threatening her, she can get help through school, im not saying ban all school related help, im saying its a sensitive subject that has to be dealt with by parents, not those who have no emotional/real relationship with the child.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Xaccers was referring to something I told him and it wasn't just about looking at someone........

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

i know what hes refering to, he mentioned it earlier on.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Just to let you know, the 19 year old I mentioned is white and christian. (and she's got nothing to do with debs)

But as you say, in some cultures things we find unacceptable happen.
An upstanding member of the community who's always been a good father, could, when told his daughter is pregnant, take her out of the country and "save her from shame"

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

ah, ok ( i didnt think that anyway)

yes *sigh but as i said before its diffarent for everybody, if it was my child who never told me i would be angry, i want to be told i am the father parents have the right to know simply because at that age they are young, and need the guidance in these huge decisions....

jeez were going around in circles now lol

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

So what do we do to protect the girls who's parents disown or decapitate their daughters?
Remember, most of the time these people would be considered loving parents, so there wouldn't be a history of abuse.

As for guidance, surely they need advice and honest information, not guidence, from someone who's had experience of the situation, not a parent who's never had an abortion and could be bias against them rather than just giving the facts and making sure the girl actually has made the decision herself?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

as i stated before support is available if needed.

i see your point, but you cannot hide the truth, not like this.

it diffarent.......when you have people who know you, and are around you, relationships are diffarent between parents and social workers/counsillors, im sure you can see my standpoint ?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Right, so when the father says "its ok dear, we're going to go and visit your grandparents to let them know" and takes her out of the country and kills her what do you do then?

How can we stop things like that happening?

And what if the girl wants to keep the baby but her parents threaten her and force her to have an abortion?
If she spoke to health workers at 5 weeks saying she wants to keep it, and they have to tell the parent, then an abortion is still possible.
If the girl thinks her parents will want an abortion, then she can be told that after a certain number of weeks she can't abort, then the girl has the chance to wait until then before telling her parents.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

and what happens afterwards ? who looks after the child ?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

OK look at the facts:-

She's 14
She was Pregnant
She turned to the school for help
She didnt inform her parents


Ok why didnt she inform her parents when she was obviously able to discuss the situation? Theres the main indicator for me.
The fact remains that this girl got help when she needed it, whether or not we personally believe an abortion was the best thing should not come into it. The decision was made, the pregnancy was terminated, ANY person in that situation would have second thoughts that is a natural reaction.

Abortion is there as a legal option for those that wish to chose it. Its also an option for those of us that dispise everything about abortion, should we/they need to use that option for ANY reason.

Abortion is an emotive subject hence why I said earlier that I did not care either way and consider it an necessary evil. I would much rather the choice be there whether the person having the abortion is 12 or 50 years old.

The fcat the girl did not tell her parents of her own free will indicates to me she did not want them to known. IF these parents had reacted badly when the school informed them and they did abuse the girl physically and mentally the school would then be directly implicated into the cause of abuse.

As I keep saying, the school helped the girl in a way the school should not have been expected. But the school did the right thing in a bad situation for that the people concerned need to know that they have helped this girl.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

If this thread is making you :mad: :grind: make sure you head on over to Russ's thread of :romance: :romance: lurve :kiss: :kiss: .

Don't forget, we all inhabit the same little virtual space.. lets try to keep it as friendly as the day we decided to stay :ghugs:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

But it's not their job to tell the parents, it's the daughters. There is no such thing as an underage girl in this cercumstance.

People should stop blaming others for family problems it's that simple.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

and at 14 yo her parents have a right to know (imo)
....where does it stop? How about if she was 10yo?

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Holy crap. Now the mother's wanting to sue the school for not telling her.... not quite sure what legal grounds she has to rely on there??? Money money money...

If she was really so cheesed of she should be campaining for a change in the law, not persuing the school in court for doing what was legally correct, and what the girl requested.

And the father of the baby was 13!!!!!!!!!

At the risk of sounding callous, I think the girl made the best decision. :shrug:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

me too, I think this highlights a great thing of your society that a young girl has some place to turn to other than her parents!

SHe didnt want to inform her parents, thats a problem, and she shouldnt have to be forced to tell her.

Good parents would be told anyway (although even good parents may not be easy to talk to about this)

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Well in the example I gave, she'd tell her parents, but it would be too late for them to force her to have an abortion.
She's reponsible for her baby's welfare, social services can help with some things too.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Ok, how do we change things so that the parents are informed automatically whilst still preventing parents taking their children abroad to be murdered to "spare their shame"?

Personally, if it meant that by not having the legal right to be told, a girl is saved from a slow death in a river, then I think that's a small price to pay.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

It would appear (to me anyway) that the more we find out about the mother, the more I understand why the daughter may not have felt she could talk to her about this issue.

I am only reading between the lines, and basing my OPINIONS on what I can glean about the personalities involved from the comments in the press, but none the less :

[Hypothsis]

14 year old girl and 13! year old boy get a bit too involved in human biology practicals, either through bad judgement (no - we don't need a condom we're both new to this) or bad luck (bloody condoms - never 100% reliable) they girl end up pregant.

She loves her parents, and knows they love her, but feels that she has let them down, and they may well disown her if they find out.

She talks to councillors at school, who give her un-biased advice, and support her when she requests that they don't tell the parents.

She decides to have an abortion, and the local NHS trust have the usual meetings and discussions with her, and decide that she has thought this through and is aware of te consequences of her choice.

Mum finds out and goes ballistic - she is feeling hurt, because her child did not feel that she could talk to her about this. She always thought that her daughter could talk to her about anything.

Mum chats to the daughter, and the daughter realises that her mum would support her, and that she could have kept the child, without losing the loving family she had.

Mum/daughter contact the hosital, they tell her she should be ok to keep the baby, as the process is not complete.

Next day, the hospital say "sorry - we got it wrong - the child cannot be saved, you must continue with the abortion"

Mum/daughter both absolutely gutted, Mum is even angrier because she feels that her 14 year old daughter should not be able to have an abortion without her consent (legally incorrect, but this is a hurt mother we are talking about).

Mum decides to get as much publicity as she can about this case, as she feels that this should not be able to happen in todays caring society. (still all hypothetical here)

The press prints the story, and it makes national headlines.

Mum/daughter gets loads of sympathy from the public, and mum thinks - If I sue the school, maybe this will never happen again - I can't change the law, but I can make schools/health authorities too scared of litigation to do this again.

[/Hypothesis]

The thing with all this is that we still do not know whether the mother forced the girl to change her mind, or whether the girl wanted to keep the baby, but thought her parents would not support her, or even worse, throw her out.

We also have not heard anything from the father(not the 13 year old one) - so we don't know how he feels about all this.

There are too many unknowns, and too many moral issues for anyone to really debate this unemotionaly. As I stated before, the actions carried out were legally correct, but emotion never follows the law.

[Hypothesis 2]

What if they had told the parents, against the girls wishes, and the parents turned out to be violent, and beat her (possibly causing the loss of the baby and permanent damage).

would we then be debating why the parents were told - against the wishes of the girl?

[/Hypothesis 2]

To me it is a sad situation - as I and others have said before - when a girl feels she cannot talk to her parents about something as important as this.

I just hope that when I have children they will be able to talk to me about anything.

(for the record - no kids yet, working on it. have 2 nieces who are also my god-children, and whom I love dearly and would protect with my life if necessary)

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

?? I don't understand that bit. What the school/counsellors did was LEGAL. So they shouldn't be scared of any ltitgation, cos the law is on their side... :confused: :shrug: Which is why I doin't understand why she's suing the school, unless it's for money. :rolleyes:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

or revenge ... although the thought of £ÃÆ ’‚£Ãà¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£ must be at the back of her mind somewhere. I wonder if the idea was put to her by some ambitious no-win-no-fee shyster?

Regardless of what I feel about the whole situation, I can't see how suing the school will help.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

:clap: (tried to rep but need to spread it around... ) Me neither...

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

could be - could also be that she wants other people to think twice before not consulting the parents (just to play devils advocate here) or even just lash out at someone because she is feeling so hurt.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Done...... :)
Agree totally

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

I agree totally OB.

Regarding suing the school. I don't agree the mum should sue the school. Partly because they have limited funds, so if they pay any money out to her then the other children will indirectly suffer (less money for books and so on) and partly because, we, as a society seem to be following the American model of society (automatically sue somebody if they do wrong).

What I mean by this is illustrated by something I read in a book. Basically the gist of it was that if something goes wrong in America, the Americans look for someone to blame (sue). If something goes wrong in Japan, the Japanese look to find out what went wrong, and look for a way to prevent it happening again. I happen to think the latter is the better example to follow.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Dam right we live in a totally selfish environments mainly stirred up by the media which paint the picture that we live in a country where everybody else is out to get you. People think that while they are alright every where else is not.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

:tu:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Me,waits for that slimeball Max Clifford to appear on the scene.:(

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Unfortunately he has probably already been in contact :(

I would hate to be him - this family have already gone through a great deal of pain, and IF he is/gets involved he will convince them to drag all the misery into the public eye for a chance of a big payoff.

I really wonder how he sleeps at night...

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

On top of a large pile of cash.....

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Rather like a Dragon sleeping on its hoard ? ;)

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

yep

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

As I predicted in my first post in this thread. *Shakes head* So lets face it, she couldnt care less that her kid had an abortion she just wants the cash for the emotional distress she was caused. :rolleyes:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

While I concur with you to a degree, people do have the option to say no. He's far from my favourite person in the world, but the people who elect to use his services aren`t that far removed from his level, all they are thinking of is the £ signs lighting up in their eyes.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3846525.stm

Sorry to rake up old ground again.
An interesting article nonetheless.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

Good link. The more I read about this kind of thing the more anything other than very early abortion disturbes me greatly. I have read some really heart rending stuff in the Times in the last week regarding abortions.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

i watched the news last night and i saw the footage of the scans. it was amazing to see. it really is going to fuel the abortion debate. if a foetus is that responsive at 12weeks when it is still legal to abort it, it is going to cause an up roar with the pro-lifers:erm:

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

I have always been in favour of abortion but this is definitely making me think again.....

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

It ought to cause an uproar with everybody, IMHO. I think a lot of people (by no means all, but a lot) have only been able to rationalise abortion in their own heads by viewing it as a 'clinical procedure' carried out on a 'thing' called a foetus, in which doctors excise the 'products of a pregnancy' from the womb.

When I look at those scans, it shows me what I have always believed to be the case. Even at that early stage, there is a human child. Totally dependent on its mother, but no less alive for that.

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

i completely agree with you towny. it brings a new element into the debate about when life actually begins. looking at the footage, it shows the baby using the womb as a trampoline (thats how the reporter described it) so it would bring into question the claim that lifes began sooner than was first thought. maybe

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

BMA demands care for living abortion babies*edit*.....not for those of a sensitive disposition

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

I'm trying really hard not to cry after reading that article...I'm still pro-choice, but the legal limit on how far to term you can go (ie 24 weeks) needs to be greatly reduced.... :(

Re: School helped secret abortion
 

It made me feel sick. Sorry, I should have prefaced it with a warning Thats how Mandy and I feel.