Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Because it would be a constitutional change.

---------- Post added at 01:04 ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 ----------

England could survive on its own. Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland could not.

Someone needs to present the economic reality to Scots Nationalist voters.

If anyone seriously believes that Scotland could manage on its own, then why does the SNP keep bleating on about the Barnett Formula?

---------- Post added at 01:08 ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 ----------

Because the electorate voted to leave the EU, just as they voted for the UK to stay together.

What is it with you guys that time and again you want to ignore the will of the electorate? We do live in a democracy, you know.

The people have decided. The politicians need to note accordingly and implement. End of.

---------- Post added at 01:10 ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 ----------

Not really. We are the United Kingdom and we should all have a say. If there are ever any more referendums on Scottish independence, we should all have a say.

---------- Post added at 01:13 ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 ----------

Joining the EU and leaving the UK would not be in the interests of the Scots.

The independence from the UK argument is being pursued by those who hate the English, let's face it!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

A constitutional change requires a landslide?

That’s just made up nonsense because you’re terrified of the Union crumbling.

The rest of the UK should have a say on Scottish independence? A threshold literally no independent nation has ever been held to, anywhere in the world?

As for ignoring the will of the electorate I’m not sure how that fits if the SNP are the largest party in the Scottish Parliament, and a majority of Scottish MPs? They’re literally the elected Government in Scotland implementing their manifesto pledge.

Laughably absurd but strangely unsurprising, Old Boy.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Party manifestos cover a range of issues and are generally reversible by throwing out the party that implemented it after 5 years. Major constitutional change, such as Scotland breaking the union with England, is not reversible. It is not a policy on the same scale and with similar significance to, say, NHS funding and cannot properly be considered alongside it.

This was - belatedly - recognised for the first time in the British constitution by the holding of a confirmatory referendum after our joining of the EU. With referendums since held on Welsh and Scottish devolution (twice in Scotland), Scottish independence, the Westminster voting system and again on membership of the EU, it is now a well established precedent in our constitution that major changes to the constitution of the UK require the specific consent of the people to that specific issue.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I agree. The manifesto commitment (holding a referendum) isn’t major constitutional change in itself though,

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

But being prepared to honour a "Yes" decision is. By allowing a vote on something, by implication you are saying the result will be honoured and implemented. More than a little bit disingenuous to say "we don't like the result, so we're going to do the opposite". A democratic country ceases to be democratic, if it ignores a democratic vote.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Parties get the opportunity to stand on manifestos every few years. Elections held are democratic. It’s their prerogative to push the referendum as often as they please. If people continue to vote for them I don’t see what the issue is.

It’s just fear that the entire UK will collapse from unionists but I don’t think that’s anything to worry about either. It’s solves England’s identity crisis in one go.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

England has the least to fear as this is the beating heart of the economy. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would not be able to survive alone without impoverishment of the population.

England does stand stronger as part of the UK, but if it were to be on its own because all the regions separated from the UK, it would no longer have to bail them out and England would come through.

England would also benefit from a significant reduction of any future threat of a Labour Government.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Elections are only democratic if the result influences the outcome. If instead the outcome depends on the opinion of certain self-selecting people, then the vote isn't democratic.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Can the English have a referendum on kicking Scotland out?

:D :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Then why are you so concerned about it?

---------- Post added at 10:35 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------

Gladly. :)

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------

Eh? That’s representative democracy around the globe. Why should Scotland be any different?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

A single issue referendum isn't anything to do with representative democracy. That is why there was an EU referendum. The issue crossed party lines. There was no other way for people to have a definitive say on the matter.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yes, I’m not disagreeing. However if a party puts in a commitment for a referendum and forms a government then it’s entitled to hold one.

This “once in a generation” nonsense - and yes I’m aware SNP people said it - is just sentimental claptrap. In a functioning democracy a party that governs can hold a referendum. If that outcome is different from a previous one on the same issue then fine the people have changed their mind.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

True, but the social upheaval is significant. The political debate in Scotland has become quite poisonous since 2014, and the referendum campaign itself was not without its financial cost, not to mention how much of the day to day running of government simply didn’t happen for about 18 months in the run up (nor for long spells afterwards, while the SNP devoted all its time to trying to engineer sufficient grievance to justify round 2 - at one point Holyrood went about 14 months without enacting a single piece of primary legislation, except the finance bill).

The SNP does not have a majority of seats in Holyrood and they have only able to progress any votes on a further referendum with support from the Greens. The SNP’s manifesto commitment to push for a second referendum in the event of any significant change in circumstances (with Brexit given as a specific example) breached the undertaking they made during the 2014 referendum campaign that this was, unqualified, a once-in-a generation, if not once a lifetime, event.

So you can argue that the SNP’s manifesto is a clear mandate for them, even if it’s a breach of trust, however, crucially, it’s the Green manifesto that’s the spanner in the works. Their manifesto stated very clearly the conditions under which a second referendum should be held; they called for a petitioning process that enabled a second referendum only to be called by direct will of the people and specifically ruled out questions of “party political advantage”.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/0...king-sturgeon/

So there are essentially two strands at work here as I see it.

1. SNP and Green between them have a majority of seats at Holyrood but based on both their manifestos, as voted on in the last Holyrood general election, they do not have a majority of seats that were won on a commitment to a second referendum, in this parliament, to be called by vote of MSPs.

2. The British Parliament is sovereign in all constitutional matters and that sovereignty carries with it a responsibility to ensure stability and good governance. Regardless of manifesto commitments made in a Scottish election, a divisive constitutional referendum must be a decisive, once and for all event, or else government becomes consumed permanently by one single issue. That has been the case in Scotland since late 2013 and it has become the case across the UK recently too.

The UK government, supervised by Parliament, has every right to tell the Scottish nationalists to do one and not to change that position until conditions dictate otherwise. I more or less agree with the Scottish Green manifesto here - there must be sustained evidence of a change of heart in Scotland before we submit ourselves to it again. Thus far, there is no sustained evidence of any change, and never has been. Yes majority polls like the one released last week occur from time to time but they are always isolated.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Political discourse is poisonous all over the world, that’s not unique to Scotland either.

If people don’t feel the SNP are appropriately governing there’s a process for that and it’s up to the Scottish Labour Party, Lib Dems or Conservatives to offer a progressive alternative vision for Scotland other than a Union Flag to appeal to a certain proportion of the population that would be more at home in the DUP.

The British Parliament is neither decisive nor offering good governance. So I’m unsure how to address point two.

Not commencing social upheaval due to wafer thin mandates, as opposed to decisive ones, is an interesting concept. I’ll give it that.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Everything SNP do fails the people of Scotland. We all do not want Indy2 she had her chance and cannot except it, N S things if it is not her way she is not playing, Cannot stand her or her policies, I am Scottish and British,