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Hugh 12-11-2018 22:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970373)
Till she screwed it up with her Maybot mantra. A totally useless misjudge of everything.

---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------



The GFA does not mention the border.
The GFA led to the removal of border checkpoints, so it’s fairly relevant.

The concern is that a re-imposition of these could lead to the Troubles flaring up again, and since we lost 3,600 in the previous Troubles, no one (sensible) wants that. As Jonathan Powell, the UK’s GFA chief negotiator put it "“Having a soft border was crucial because that meant the issue of identity was really removed from the table. You could live in Northern Ireland all your life and be Irish (have an Irish passport, never notice there was a border), or you could be British, or you could be both. If you have a hard border and we go back to the concrete blocks on small roads and the border point crossings and all that, then the identity issue is reopened.”

I don’t think people living in mainland Britain really understand how much life has changed in NI because of the GFA.

jonbxx 12-11-2018 22:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970373)




The GFA does not mention the border.
True, however, it is acknowledged that the open border has enhanced and facilitated North/South cooperation, especially in the border corridor (strand 2 of the Belfast Agreement) see paragraphs 127 and 128 of this paper - https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../329/32907.htm

1andrew1 12-11-2018 22:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970405)
I don’t think people living in mainland Britain really understand how much life has changed in NI because of the GFA.
Nailed it.
When I see naive comments such as "the remainers invented the Irish border issue - it's a non-issue", I do worry. Hopefully, those behind the wheel understand things a bit better.

Pierre 12-11-2018 22:37
Re: Brexit
 
As a regular visitor to N.I. Since before the troubles ended I have indeed seen how things have improved. On the surface at least, don’t kid yourself if you think it’s all been peace and harmony for the last 20years. Far from it.

That said, no one wants to see a border, and I doubt there would be one. But I believe it would be achieved quicker if there was a bit more stick and less carrot and that would be if we are out of the EU when talks start

Sephiroth 12-11-2018 22:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35970406)
True, however, it is acknowledged that the open border has enhanced and facilitated North/South cooperation, especially in the border corridor (strand 2 of the Belfast Agreement) see paragraphs 127 and 128 of this paper - https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../329/32907.htm
The paragraphs you have cited are reproduced below.

North/South Cooperation

127. Strand two of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement established the North/South Ministerial Council which brings together ministers from both governments “to develop consultation, co-operation and action” on an all-island and cross-border basis. The Council agreed six areas of cooperation under the Agreement; agriculture, education, environment, health, tourism and transport. It is also responsible for six all-island implementation bodies which manage inland waterways, sea loughs and lighthouses, language, trade, food safety and the distribution of EU funds.

128.The Government acknowledged that other fora of collaboration have since developed, such as the Single Electricity Market, policing exchanges and the all-island hosting of sporting events. We heard that cross-border cooperation has been important for building trust and improving infrastructure in the border regions. In these areas, cross-border connections have become a means of overcoming the dual challenges of underdevelopment and geographical peripherality from Dublin and Belfast. The Northern Ireland Local Government Association told us that border councils rely on the free-flowing movement of “goods, workers, shoppers and visitors” from an economic hinterland which extends into Ireland. Paragraphs 128 to 133 set out two case studies on cross-border cooperation.

In §128 the bit that I have italicized is presumably what you rely upon in asserting that the border must stay open in terms of the GFA.


No doubt, Varadkar is interpreting this as a means of protecting Ireland's economic interests.

Remainers here have claimed in the name of the GFA that peace on that island depends on open borders.

This section of the GFA is all about collaboration and cooperation, not terrorism.

If it is important to cooperate and collaborate between the two parts of the island, it is not for the EU to dictate to us on how that should be done.

ianch99 12-11-2018 22:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35970345)
Let me think... Hmmm.... Still don't care....
I never asked if you care. In fact I don't care if you care .. or not ... :)

---------- Post added at 21:47 ---------- Previous post was at 21:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970405)
The GFA led to the removal of border checkpoints, so it’s fairly relevant.

The concern is that a re-imposition of these could lead to the Troubles flaring up again, and since we lost 3,600 in the previous Troubles, no one (sensible) wants that. As Jonathan Powell, the UK’s GFA chief negotiator put it "“Having a soft border was crucial because that meant the issue of identity was really removed from the table. You could live in Northern Ireland all your life and be Irish (have an Irish passport, never notice there was a border), or you could be British, or you could be both. If you have a hard border and we go back to the concrete blocks on small roads and the border point crossings and all that, then the identity issue is reopened.”

I don’t think people living in mainland Britain really understand how much life has changed in NI because of the GFA.
Totally agree.

In the early Eighties, I used to visit the "bandit" country on behalf of HM Government and we had to drive down to Bessbrook and get a Army Air Corp helicopter into Crossmaglen as it was considered too dangerous to drive to the border.

That is how much it has changed since the Troubles ...

OLD BOY 13-11-2018 08:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35970407)
Nailed it.
When I see naive comments such as "the remainers invented the Irish border issue - it's a non-issue", I do worry. Hopefully, those behind the wheel understand things a bit better.
Of course Brexiteers want to keep an open border.

We are saying the issue was invented by remainers as a barrier to Brexit because there are alternatives to the hard border. The vast majority of trade between NI and Ireland will still be as it is now - there is a very small percentage that will need additional checks post Brexit. The UK has put forward a number of solutions, all of which appear to have been rejected out of hand by the EU.

If they wanted to resolve this matter, they could. If the EU don't want a hard border, and we know they don't, the last thing they will want is a no-deal Brexit, which would bring that very situation about. This is just one good reason why a deal will be brokered in the end.

Damien 13-11-2018 09:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970423)
Of course Brexiteers want to keep an open border.

We are saying the issue was invented by remainers as a barrier to Brexit because there are alternatives to the hard border. The vast majority of trade between NI and Ireland will still be as it is now - there is a very small percentage that will need additional checks post Brexit. The UK has put forward a number of solutions, all of which appear to have been rejected out of hand by the EU.

If they wanted to resolve this matter, they could. If the EU don't want a hard border, and we know they don't, the last thing they will want is a no-deal Brexit, which would bring that very situation about. This is just one good reason why a deal will be brokered in the end.
What would solve it? The idea we've already solved it but it's been rejected seems to be in the same bucket as when everyone said the EU have said No to all our ideas for an agreement before we even knew what we wanted!

jonbxx 13-11-2018 10:46
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970409)
The paragraphs you have cited are reproduced below.

North/South Cooperation

127. Strand two of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement established the North/South Ministerial Council which brings together ministers from both governments “to develop consultation, co-operation and action” on an all-island and cross-border basis. The Council agreed six areas of cooperation under the Agreement; agriculture, education, environment, health, tourism and transport. It is also responsible for six all-island implementation bodies which manage inland waterways, sea loughs and lighthouses, language, trade, food safety and the distribution of EU funds.

128.The Government acknowledged that other fora of collaboration have since developed, such as the Single Electricity Market, policing exchanges and the all-island hosting of sporting events. We heard that cross-border cooperation has been important for building trust and improving infrastructure in the border regions. In these areas, cross-border connections have become a means of overcoming the dual challenges of underdevelopment and geographical peripherality from Dublin and Belfast. The Northern Ireland Local Government Association told us that border councils rely on the free-flowing movement of “goods, workers, shoppers and visitors” from an economic hinterland which extends into Ireland. Paragraphs 128 to 133 set out two case studies on cross-border cooperation.

In §128 the bit that I have italicized is presumably what you rely upon in asserting that the border must stay open in terms of the GFA.


No doubt, Varadkar is interpreting this as a means of protecting Ireland's economic interests.

Remainers here have claimed in the name of the GFA that peace on that island depends on open borders.

This section of the GFA is all about collaboration and cooperation, not terrorism.

If it is important to cooperate and collaborate between the two parts of the island, it is not for the EU to dictate to us on how that should be done.
Of course Varadkar wants to protect Irelands economic interests, that is his job. I was in Ireland last week and the potential economic impact of Brexit is all over the news there.

The North/South cooperation part of the GFA along with the rest is a tool to give a framework for peace. There's actually very little about the end of hostilities in the agreement. There's a section on reconciliation and a section about the decommissioning but that's about it. It's more about;
  • Ending the London rule of the North (Strand 1)
  • Creating a framework for North/South cooperation (Strand 2)
  • Expanding British/Irish cooperation (Strand 3)

Plus sections on the rights and security of the people of the North.

Ireland is an EU member as well as a sovereign nation. It is only right surely that the EU negotiations should reflect Irelands interests as a member

Full text of the agreement BTW - https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peac...0Agreement.pdf

OLD BOY 13-11-2018 11:09
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35970424)
What would solve it? The idea we've already solved it but it's been rejected seems to be in the same bucket as when everyone said the EU have said No to all our ideas for an agreement before we even knew what we wanted!
Well, Damien, I expect we will find out soon enough!

jonbxx 13-11-2018 11:14
Re: Brexit
 
Oh, for a bit of interesting fun, I found a nice table discussing how legitimate the EU and the member state governments (plus EEA states) are from a democratic point of view which I thought was quite interesting. The chart also aligns the EU roles with governmental ones from member states.

Fill ya boots here - https://arnoldplaton.files.wordpress...cy1.png?w=1250

Mick 13-11-2018 12:29
Re: Brexit
 
I don’t own any boots and will gladly not waste my time with that rubbish from a blog site.

Pierre 13-11-2018 12:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35970430)
Oh, for a bit of interesting fun, I found a nice table discussing how legitimate the EU and the member state governments (plus EEA states) are from a democratic point of view which I thought was quite interesting. The chart also aligns the EU roles with governmental ones from member states.

Fill ya boots here - https://arnoldplaton.files.wordpress...cy1.png?w=1250
Doesn't, conveniently, include the EU Commission?

heero_yuy 13-11-2018 14:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Quote from Handelsblatt:

It is all very well to express European unity during memorials for the fallen in past world wars. But genuine unity – political, financial and military – is still lacking inside the European Union, according to France’s Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire. In an exclusive interview with Handelsblatt, he indicates that Paris is more than willing for more Europe and the ball is now in Berlin’s court.

The European Union should become “a peaceful empire” in order to stand up to China and the US, Le Maire argued. And although thanks to their wartime history, some Germans may find his talk of empire unattractive, Le Maire explains that, “I am using this phrase because, in tomorrow’s world, it’s going to be all about power … technological power, economic, financial, monetary, cultural power – all will be decisive. Europe cannot be shy any longer about using its power.”

Le Maire won’t go as far as to say that German politicians have been two-faced about European unity. But he did set a small deadline: “We have talked about it for a long time. Now it’s time for decisions. And there will be decisions made on December 4, at the next meeting of the economy and finance ministers. I cannot imagine anything else.”
Doesn't an empire require an emperor? Clearly shows the trajectory of remaining in the EU: Imperialism.

Hugh 13-11-2018 14:46
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35970437)
Doesn't an empire require an emperor? Clearly shows the trajectory of remaining in the EU: Imperialism.
You may wish to look up ‘metaphor’...

What he is saying is that a large economic bloc will have more negotiating power against the other large blocs like China and the US.


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