Re: Brexit discussion
 

May be not for you Mick, but I sense those with a lot to lose financially are having the 'wobbles'.

Anyway, glad, that you're glad, you're leaving ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No dude, we’re leaving together. :)

You’ll be fine.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Oh no, we've become their parents :erm:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You've quite a wait mate. December 2020 I hear, with Theresa pleading for even more time.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Considering it's potentially possible to have a Brexit deal that is almost identical to being in the EU, how can every possible deal be negative. Just isn't plausible.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The scenarios the Govt. asked them to look at are all negative. You'd assume they asked for the likely scenarios.

You're right we could end up with a deal that is almost the same as being in the EU. There is an important difference though, we'll have little or no say in Eu issues affecting us.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I'm not sure how possible that is. Even if such a thing existed, we would have no control of rules which would penalise us by favouring the EU member states and not us.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

And that doesn't happen at the moment?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Only someone with a really low opinion of the UK would think that it happens at the moment.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Strange remark that I could apply to 'some' Remainers who think the UK cannot survive without being chained to the corrupt EU.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not that strange, just correct. We're a strong and influential country in the EU. We even wrote Article 50!

---------- Post added at 17:59 ---------- Previous post was at 17:40 ----------

Meanwhile, Peston notes:
https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/p...89934627997939

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No, I stand by my post, it was a strange remark, you accusing someone else 'talking down the UK' when it's all some Remainers ever do and have done since the democratic decision to leave the EU.

I am not sure what Lord Kerr, writing the text of Article 50 has got to do with the UK being in a 'so called' strong EU ?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The wording was " We're a strong and influential country in the EU" not a so called strong EU.

So many Leavers talk the UK down that it's time to put the record straight. Few Remainers talk this great country down. We just mention economic facts such as those released yesterday aka the uncomfortable truth about Brexit.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There you go again . . there are no 'facts' simply guesswork and supposition.

Oh, and it seems to me that most of the 'panicking' going on is from the Remainers camp :p:

Nothing wrong with this Country at all, as long as you've got a job and somewhere to live.
Those that haven't will have a different view of many things and, whether rightly or wrongly, will blame much of it on the EU.
I'm sure they'd swap their current lifestyle for one of those with a nice house, car, and earning 300k + a year, and probably change their vote if they did.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think you need a lesson on what is a ‘fact’ and was is an ‘assumption’. Facts are past tense, which means an event has happened for it be recorded as a fact. An event that ‘could’ happen in the future, cannot be classed as a fact.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

One thing that Margaret Thatcher did was to try and teach people to take personal responsibility for their own circumstances and to try and improve them. Clearly that message did not reach those who apparently "blame much of it on the EU". :(

And no, those leaked documents are not guesswork. It's hard evidence-based work, not Project Fear or anything like that, just cross-departmental work from some of the finest brains in the country. Doubtless Leavers will try and criticise our hardworking civil servants in the same way they denigrate this fine country of ours.

If another form of words is what it takes then I'm happy to stick with Robert Peston's:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You’re still wrong though, so stick to what you like.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Call me old fashioned, but I'll stick with this country's hardworking civil servants and their analysis.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Good lad, you do that mate

It's not as though they've got a good track record so maybe, just maybe, the odds will be with them getting something at least half right :D


oh, and nice work with 'analysis' instead of 'fact' ;)

I think they do try to improve their circumstances, but it's hard to get a home when they're bottom of a very long list (which includes immigrants), and even harder to get a job when you're 1 out of 200 applying.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You mean assumptions.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

More talking the country and its civil servants down. This is a great country, it's not without its faults but we are lucky to have some hardworking and competent civil servants batting for Great Britain. Where exactly is their bad track record? It's normally fat cat politicians who are at fault than the lads and lasses working for the civil service. But obviously like anywhere they will get dumped upon from those on high.

---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------

Damien's tried to explain this to you far better than I ever will in a month of Sundays. If you can't get your head around his level-headed insight and clear explanations then there's little mere mortals like me can do.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There is nothing to explain.

Talking of future events that could happen, but equally could not, are assumptions. No getting round this at all.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The facts are that the Government's own analysis has shown that leaving the EU will be detrimental to the UK economy. Unpalatable for Brexiters who may have to resort to knocking our hardworking civil servants and failing to understand how such analysis is conducted.
For anyone else, they make grim reading.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If predicting future economic states is futile, who asked the civil servants at DExEU to compile a study, knowing it's a waste of time? Can we be sure and be assured that government policy will not be affected by any study predicting the effects of different types of Brexit?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You're right. It's a bit awkward for the Brexit Dept and far from surprising that the Department has such a high staff turnover if your boss stabs you in the back...for doing your job properly!

Two bits of other news today:

1) In a U-turn, the Brexit economic impact reports will now be published.
https://news.sky.com/story/ministers...study-11230715

2) The EU has confirmed that there can be no special cake-and-eat-it deal for the UK financial services sector.
https://www.ft.com/content/7f7669a4-...0-9c0ad2d7c5b5

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The EU clearly knows nothing about the British people. I hope they keep pushing :D.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Too damn right :tu:

There was a UK Government that knew nothing about the British people too . . until they pushed back :D

let's all sing together . . the wheels on the (red bus with the NHS slogan*) go round and round, round and round . . .


*not that many of us believed that anyway :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The EU pushed last time and the UK obligingly caved in. I have no doubt the hapless David Davis will Carry on Conceding. :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Charles Grant has denied saying this as have other people in the meeting. Not to mention Baker has now angered the civil servants who were asked by the Government to produce this study before being thrown under the bus, with apparently little evidence (even if the claim had been made), when the government didn't like the results.....

How can the Government expect to get what they ask for if Ministers will stand before Parliament and accuse them of lying and being unprofessional for political cover?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Just the sort of people that would be in the frame for Big Brother, or that weird Jungle thing :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Indeed, our Civil Servants are very hard working and damned good at what they do.

The problem is that they are very much establishment figures, the majority of whom are left of centre to varying degrees in their politics.

I know from experience that they don't much like Conservative politicians and their ideas and so their reports and opinions can be rather negative at times.

Problem is, they seem to weigh up the cost of all the disadvantages they see without taking account of the considerable opportunities of getting out of this dreadful organisation of Eurocrats.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So what else does the report say? I take it you've seen a copy?

Cheers

Dave

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think you sill find that most clear thinking people believe that if we obtain a good trade deal as the government says they want to achieve, then there will be little detriment, if any, to the UK. Add to that our ability to boost trade with the rest of the world, this will be a significant boost to our economy.

What all too many remainers can't see, or don't want to admit, is that the EU is holding us back, and there is a price to pay if we stay.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

1st time I've posted in this thread. I voted leave.

Am I a racist bigot? Asking for a friend.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Funnily enough, the Netherlands Government has just released an impact assessment written for them by KPMG. Much of the focus isn’t tariff costs but non tariff barriers to trade such as customs declarations, regulatory reviews, etc. Shipments to or from third countries are estimated to cost between €78 and €127 per shipment before any tariffs are taken in to consideration. Another interesting fact is 35,000 Dutch businesses ship to the UK that have no experience of shipping to non-EU countries.

Oops, forgot link - https://www.government.nl/binaries/g...+of+Brexit.pdf

I would be surprised if the costs and number of businesses are less for the UK.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No, just very misled.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Tell your friend not to worry, all he has to do is smile and give a saucy wink when the 'other lot' tell you how bad they think it will turn out to be. ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Please tell your friend that it is possible to be a Leave voter without being a racist bigot.

---------- Post added at 20:51 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

Only do it occasionally- no need to be a total winker...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Really? How have I been misled? Where was I originally hoping to be led to?

---------- Post added at 22:36 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------

Well I really hope so.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Didn't think it was you that was asking :shrug:

---------- Post added at 00:18 ---------- Previous post was at 00:15 ----------

The biggest lie for me during the referendum wasn't the bus is was Dave lying about the contents of a sixteen year old study on trade with the EU

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=884

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Bags of assumptions there on their political leanings and pretty much all wrong. I've met lots of civil servants. For their sins 90% voted Brexit and said it's the best thing ever to happen to their careers. Umlike most people on the UK. they're probably right. So if anything, their analysis would be pro-Brexit.

---------- Post added at 01:01 ---------- Previous post was at 00:57 ----------

Good news for hardworking Brits - common sense may be on the rise!
https://www.ft.com/content/f4775024-...0-9c0ad2d7c5b5

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Sorry, thought Mr K was replying to

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Rubbish, I, as a proud leave voter, do not in any way feel misled. I would vote leave, again and again and AGAIN!

To feel like we need to be associated with the corrupt EU, is in a more narrow minded way of thinking.

We certainly do not and leave that horrible and crap institution we must.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I sense you're wavering Mick ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

90%? Sorry, but that stretches credibility to the extreme!

A majority of right leaning people choose to go into the private sector. That makes sense, surely?

I was one of a minority on the right of centre who elected to go into public service, and I can tell you it was pretty frustrating at times.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Your senses are way off the mark.

Roll on Brexit. Best thing to happen to this country by a long shot.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It cannot be any clearer, said again today....

Theresa May: "UK will leave Customs Union and negotiate free-trade deal."

Good, as it should be. Leave is not leave when one foot is in still in the door.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think the lady keeps changing her mind, but that's women for you;)

Her cabinet is split and she has to say whatever to please the latest rebel of the day.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

"That's women for you"... That's a very Anti-Feminist remark, Mr K. The pussy wearing hat brigade would not be happy with you. ;)

Leaving the EU is leaving the Single Market and Customs Union. We will not and should not be staying in it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I'm still hoping to be told how I was misled and what it is I was apparently hoping to be led towards.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If you voted leave Russ it was all because of the leave campaign and the red bus the remain campaign didn't mislead or exaggerate in anyway at all and the only realists were on the remain side. We leave voters are all europe hating fantasists that have lost touch with reality that seems to be the general consensus of some on here.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

tbh a lot of Brexit voters don't seem very happy and are complaining all the time. They keep repeating the reasons for their decision almost to convince themselves. Time to celebrate, you 'won' surely , everything is wonderful ! If it and our strong and stable govt are leading you where you and your family want to be, great :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What one or two members as don't stereotype the rest of us Rizzy.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I find this post very strange.

Firstly, no one asks someone to ask a bunch of strangers if they are a racist bigot.

Secondly, everyone knows that people voted leave for a whole spectrum of reasons ranging from a objective assessments based on what evidence there was at the time to hatred of foreigners.

You will find all sorts of reasons people voted Leave so pretending to ask the question: "Am I a racist bigot because I voted leave" is like Ali G responding with the question "Is it because I is Black?" :)

The question is a joke ...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No the question isn't a joke at all there have been many insinuations of racism as a motivation for voting leave and no matter how many people say it wasn't a factor it's ignored and the insinuation continues. This referendum bought out the worst in people on both sides and no one side has a monopoly on arrogance, ignorance, nastiness or naivety it was equally present on both sides.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think the family of Jo Cox might disagree about both sides being equally nasty

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You can't define entire groups by people who live on the extremes. A far-right terrorist is no-where near the same as a normal leave voter. People like the one who murdered Jo Cox are nasty hate-filled murderers obsessed with traitors etc.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You are bang out of order for this comment, how dare you. :afire:

I am not in any way shape in the same league as the group or member of a group who murdered Jo Cox, just because I voted leave.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

One person doesn't represent everyone and violence hasn't been limited to one side either people on both sides have resorted to violence it shouldn't be made a generalisation which leave voters have had a few fired at them. Still doesn't change the fact Russ asked a reasonable question perhaps we should be more concerned that he felt he had to ask that question and what that say's about the state of the UK.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I don't think it was a question that requires much of an answer. It's no obviously. I don't think it was a genuine question either.

People say all sorts of things, don't take it to heart and get offended because someone says something somewhere. You can find people calling Remainers traitors etc, who cares?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There is nothing racist about genuine border controls. I have no issues with foreigners coming here, contributing to our economy and providing a service, collectively, what I am bothered about is totally open borders, as a small island which is what the UK is, we cannot sustain 300,000 immigrants coming here every year, to those who say this is a racist view, is total bullshit.

But to put Brexiteers on par and on same side as the killer of the Labour MP Jo Coxx, is quite frankly appalling and disgusting.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I'm not offended or overly bothered to be honest my skin is thicker then that a quality that seems to be dying out. I had my reasons for voting leave which apart from week 1 which set the standard i never bothered watching the news and thus avoided the complete embarassment that was the referendum campaign of both sides. I am tired of the constant attempts by some to paint leave voters as being influenced by a red bus and other ridiculous things while never accepting that people were swayed by some of the silliness of the remain campaign.

I have no problem with people on the remain side not being happy about the result and if they want another referendum in thirty years I'll support it assuming the EU still exists so democracy can have it's say. I'd just like the constant calls for an immediate rerun and constant attempts to undermine the democratic decision to stop for now and let things settle down. I'd also like some action taken against the media be they supposedly remain or leave leaning as they have played a big part in creating and maintaining the division but that won't happen.

A quick google showed that apparently there is a political party called britain first though from the quick snippets i saw they are just the knuckle dragging bnp under another name and it's easy for me to believe that coward who killed jo cox was a member.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

And the hate cards Polish people were given after the Brexit vote? Not a coincidence. There are more of these curtain twitching nasty cowards around than we like to think.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Those cards have been around for years nothing to do with brexit i get them shoved through my door quite often and have a good laugh with my polish neighbour about them.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Are there racists out there? Yes. Were some Leave voters racist? Yes. Does that mean most Leave voters are racist? No.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I would never suggest that all people who supported leave are murderers of course. I also do not suggest that Thomas Mair represents all leave voters. There is a whole spectrum of opinions and politics that lead to the way people voted and reacted post referendum. However, the febrile environment did lead to a politically motivated murder.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The guy who murdered Jo Cox, was a total Nut Job with a pure murderous intent.

A Nut job tends to do these extreme things beyond the normal rationale of the average voter.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Don't disagree with that, but it has encouraged the nasty element in our society.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That is seen as extreme on both sides of the hard-left (Antifa) and hard-right (Fascists).

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Next week should be interesting as the Coalition of Chaos argues about a potential customs union with the EU. How else to prevent a hard border with Ireland?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/...t-post-brexit/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...-fox-kvp7wlg08

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Talking of Antifa....

https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-ree...event-11234071

The only Fascists there were those masked *******s....

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I didn't really feel the need to ask anything, I just love the standard go-to response many people have towards anyone who voted to leave which usually involved accusations of racism and was hoping to have it explained how that could possibly be pinned on me.

Doesn't matter now though.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

They're about as fascist as mogg imo, they're immature little children that should've been told no more by their parents. Just like that rabble in the Churchill cafe the other day who missed the rather delicious irony that without him they might not have been able to have their little protest at all.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Agreed, their behaviour doesn’t help their cause at all when there are real fascists out there (EDL, Britain First, Football Lads Alliance, etc.) At best, this behaviour dilutes their message. Personally, I find some of of JRMs view horrible but he was elected and there are bigger fish to fry out there.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That Churchill thing in that cafe was disgusting, I would not have sat there like that and listened to crap coming out of their mouths. This just highlights how brainwashed the young easily are.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8193106.html
At least there's one Tory prepared to put the good of country before political ambition.
Don't have a problem with those MPs that campaigned for remain or leave and have been consistent. Those that campaigned for Remain and are now saying we should leave, knowing it's going to damage us, are political opportunists.

Well done Mr Grieve, top Tory.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

But not really because we are still leaving. Thankfully.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You keep talking as though your stating facts which is clearly false and the opportunities for us out of the EU could eclipse the benefit of remaining within the EU and the UK being able to strike deals that benefit the UK is far better then what we currently have. That's putting aside things like a single european military and single european justice system which i and i would guess a great many more would not be happy with. The usual retort to that is "the UK has a veto" and the fact is senior EU figures have made it very clear that your either into all the plans they have or your out there will not be multi layered membership in relation to the grander plans.

Even if there were given how spineless and duplicitous our domestic politicians are they would sign everything including the veto away in future treaties had we stayed in. It's a big wide world out there and because of brexit we can fully engage with it and take advantage of the opportunities that exist.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Most encouraging.
Meanwhile, a lying Brextremist is at it again. Putting his country down by accusing hard-working civil servants of making up the figures. I guess he thinks all of them would be pro-Remain when he knows the country's split on the issue.
In the past, he would have been hung from Traitor's Gate. These days we're a bit more sensitive so I'd settle for Jacob Rees-Mogg to be bunged in the Tower of London instead.
https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-ree...casts-11235091

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

You've read the Brexit Department's analysis. We'll be worse off by leaving the EU even with good trade deals with China, the US, Australia etc.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Those figures are total bollocks, made up by treasury Remainers. I said it too, but I vote we throw you in the tower for being the true person talking the country down and believing lying figures.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

How are you so sure the treasury isn't manipulating figures they do have form in that area and perhaps JRM knows something you don't hard as that is for you to accept as your so certain in your view of things. Every study out there including the pro brexit one's are guesswork simple as that because this hasn't happened before nobody knows anything for certain. Unlike some remain supporters normal people tend not to put much faith into experts that make dire predictions that would immediately happen as a result of a vote to leave that don't then happen in fact experts credibility has been taking a knock for quite a while.

Also just a little aside i thought talk of traitors was not acceptable or is that only the case when it relates to the remain side but it's ok if it's the leave side. I'm sure you can provide verifiable facts to back your constant comments Andrew I'll just sit here and wait for them. Oh and before you try to I'm a fan of his i personally can't stand mogg and disagree with many of his views but much as i dislike it he tends not to make baseless statements.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Why is defending hard-working civil servants talking the country down? It is not. Are you naive enough to believe that the civil service is 100% in favour of Remain? Seriously? That ranks alongside some of the Trump supporters who believe that aliens are in league with the Pope. :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I’d rather be in America right now, a much more thriving economy and bonus pay packets worth thousands of dollars being handed out. But hey ho. Keep on knocking prosperity.

You know what they said there too, if Trump won the Presidency, stock market would collapse and jobs would be lost. Far opposite is happening. Just like you and all the doom mongers will be wrong when we finally leave EU!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

As a patriotic Brit, I'd rather be in the UK.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You don’t have to live in the country to be patriotic, Andrew.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So nothing to backup your constant assertions then Andrew and i doubt MrK will provide anything either and given your constant willingness to accept everything negative about the UK's prospects in the coming years you'll forgive me lmao at you trying to wrap yourself in the flag.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Trump wouldn't let you in Mick, you're an alien. US first remember ? ;) However there's always a home for you in the EU, well for a bit anyway...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I'm not sure what you want from me and the rest of the forum. If you chose to believe that the pro-Brexit Government's analysis and also that provided by every economist except raving Patrick Minford is wrong because it doesn't fit your agenda, then there's little anyone can do to inform you on the laws of trade and economics. Let alone little old me.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The govt. asked for a report, the evidence is there. They don't like the results as it's politically inconvenient, well facts are facts. Should we believe a slogan on the side of a bus more ?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What will we be selling them the day after leaving that we don't sell them right now?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Trump has no issues with immigration that’s legal. You did realise that didn’t you before posting yet another inaccurate insight?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Brexit attacks on civil service ‘are worthy of 1930s Germany’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-1930s-germany

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Oh look an irrelevant article from the grauniad. Well worth reading.... not. :rofl:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

1.It's not irrelevant, it's about Brexit.
2. It's from The Observer not The Guardian.
Nothing seems to be the response on this forum.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You’re seriously coming back at me with this?

The Observer is the sister paper of the grauniad, from same parent company but more crucially, on same liberal political spectrum.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

lol, no harm in accuracy or owning up to a minor mistake. Me pedantic, :erm: sometimes.

---------- Post added at 01:04 ---------- Previous post was at 00:40 ----------

Exactly. A reminder of the Government's analysis:

1. Gains from trade deals - upto plus 0.6%
New trade deals with third countries would not compensate for the loss of growth from Brexit
- Assuming a trade deal with the US would be concluded, it would benefit GDP by about 0.2 per cent in the long term.
- Assuming trade deals with other non-EU countries and blocs, such as China, India, Australia, the Gulf countries, and the nations of Southeast Asia would add, in total, a further 0.1 per cent to 0.4 per cent to GDP over the long term.

2. Loss from Brexit - up to minus 8%
2-8% per cent of growth over 15 years, depending on the hardness of Brexit.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The government requested thirty reports on possible scenarios and they are not all negative but it's funny only the negative one's get leaked or are you seriously suggesting the government only asked for one report. Nearly every government department has had reports commissioned on the effect of brexit but again only the one's that suit the anti brexit agenda get leaked when it comes to brexit this government has drowned themselves in reports at quite an expense so if we are going to have one released to the public lets have all of them not just the one's that suit.