Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Not everyone. However, what do you think of the many I spoke to who were voting in purely because brexit would put their job at risk or cost them money?
What about those who thought that it was a good thing the the european court had precedence over our high court? How about those who were unconcerned that Junker could basically tell the UK what to do and we had to do it. Unpatriotic?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

People have mortgages and families to support. It's not a surprise that they would place that above something like the CJEU which is mostly going to be an abstract thing in their day to day lives. Calling them Unpatriotic because they placed their home or their families above their feelings about the EU is unfair.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

British. Both parents Latvian immigrants (displaced persons after WW2)

---------- Post added at 11:43 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------

These are very well off people I'm talking about. Putting self interest above their country. I think my accusation is fair.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

They were unconcerned as they know it's absolutely nonsense! Speak to many informed people in Europe and they're always concerned about the UK's huge EU influence, not the other way round. But we're going to lose that influence because people didn't take the time to establish the facts and voted on misinformation like £350m a week to the NHS and voted unpatriotically for a poorer and less powerful country. A decision that our patriotic Brits in Gibraltar are very nervous about.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If they voted 'in' they voted for the UK to cease to exist as a political entity because the EU was in the process of consuming it (and the rest of the European countries)
As for your comment about Obama, I assume you are joking.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The UK would not need to lose its political entity and you provide no evidence for that. Last time I checked Obama was the leader of the Free World though doubtless some will argue that it's Kim Kardashian or Katie Hopkins. :D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What's unpatriotic about not wanting the country to be poorer? You're talking about your own costs, what about those who may suffer during this five years of rough times who can't afford to lose half a million quid?

We pool our sovereignty in various ways with various bodies, from the WTO down.

The idea that one man can tell the UK what to do is absurd. Juncker has no power over the UK at all. Without the agreement of Council of Ministers and EU Parliament nothing is imposed on the UK.

For your comments on sovereignty and patriotism it's pretty obvious you have a strong dislike of the EU, describing its influence as malevolent, and the claim we were going to be consumed somehow is paranoia.

Joining a European superstate would've required a referendum. We rejected the Euro and Schengen, why would we suddenly agree to become part of a federalist EU?

Other EU nations voluntarily joined the Euro and Schengen, fully aware it was part of an ongoing integration process. We abstained, and any attempts to cede further powers require a referendum.

It was accepted that ever-closer union didn't suit the UK before this referendum. Obviously not an issue now.

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------

We co-founded the European Court of Human Rights and are subject to it. We are subject to, amongst other things, the International Criminal Court.

Your concept of patriotism is a fantasy that hasn't existed in decades.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The reason that it hasn't existed for decades is because of the influence of the EU and it's left wing fellow travellers.
I'm amazed that you still can't see that the ultimate aim of the EU is to do away with the concept of national sovereignty and the implemantation of complete fiscal and political control of all the constituent countries.....at which point they cease to exist as indendent entities. Voting to stay in the EU, knowing all that, is an unpatriotic act. :shrug:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Tell the 96% of residents in Gibraltar who voted to remain that they're unpatriotic and I think they'll convince you otherwise!
As others have done their best to explain to you - the UK would not have to join a more integrated EU. We opted out of the Euro, we said no to the Shengen agreement. Knowing that, why on earth would anyone suggest that it is unpatriotic to remain in the EU?
Remember, leaving the EU means a poorer country with less money to spend on our armed forces, schools and hospitals.
And, in opening up the markets in areas like unbundling of phone exchanges, the EU is definitely not left wing, it's a free market philosophy.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Because in the EU we have no ultimate control over our affairs. Have you forgotten how little Cameron managed to extract from the EU when he went over there cap in hand? :shrug:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

So the EU forced us to take the Euro? It forced us to go to war in Iraq, Syria and Libya? It forced us to build Hinckley Point? It forced us to introduce the bedroom tax? :erm: No.
Hopefully these examples will open your eyes to the fact that we do have control.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

A democratic vote was won by the leave campaign; arguing the toss is becoming increasingly moot.

CF is becoming more dysfunctional than the EU.

For the record, patriotic, unselfish British people voted to leave. Those who lack vision with no courage for making decisions voted to remain.

Whingers :sleep:.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Do you think people in similar positions to your parents would still be allowed to come here in the coming years?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Why ever not? They came here, worked hard and brought up a family that includes a successful and articulate son. Immigration won't be stopped; people who do want to come here will benefit from British way of life and Government.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It did indeed seem like very little. Then I spoke to a constitutional lawyer who explained to me in the context of the treaties just how much of a concession Cameron was given.

The idea we had no ultimate control over our affairs within the EU is absurd.

---------- Post added at 16:03 ---------- Previous post was at 16:02 ----------

The EU is clearly a bit of a chimera given those on the left criticise it for being neo-conservative and corporatist.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Well, lest there is any doubt, the British people have made sure who is calling the shots in future. There is no 'Remain' campaign, no EU Directives and no more bank-rolling failures.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

No one's arguing the toss. We're just arguing with misinformation. Calling hard-working patriotic Brits in Gibraltar, Northern Ireland, Scotland, London and elsewhere who voted to stay in Europe as having no courage for making decisions indicates that you don't have a reasoned counter-argument.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

There is no misinformation to compare with the nonsense of Project Fear.

A counter-argument for an event now over is superfluous.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think you need to do your research. We're still bank-rolling RBS. Although saving our banks was nothing to do with the EU last time I checked! We're still in the EU and we haven't enacted Article 50. That mention of no EU directives? That's wrong too.

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:25 ----------

Misinformation is misinformation and I'm happy to provide information when people provide opinions that are at odds with the facts. No one is providing a counter-argument to any events that are over.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Oh please. The context is the EU not RBS.

Yes, we're still in the EU; your continued lack of vision is preventing you from seeing beyond Article 50.

The EU are good at minutiae so some of their 'rules' will be retained. It's the big decisions they are no good at.

No you want to prolong 'old' when 'new' beckons. You lost the vote; get over it.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Fears mount in Ireland over post-Brexit ‘hard border

https://www.ft.com/content/56f62810-...7-e7ada1d123b1

---------- Post added at 16:45 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------

If people post information that I believe is wrong then I will endeavour to correct them. That's absolutely nothing to do with referendum results I can assure you. If they prove me wrong great.
I get that you don't like me pointing out the fact that we still have to enact EU legislation. I get that you don't like me stating that bailing out the banks was a UK initiative. But those are the facts so please move on.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It is your prerogative to post what you please but a debilitating mindset will not help our future. I don't know why you have mentioned the banks but hey ho.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Because one of the core tenets of Brexit was to reduce and limit immigration. This is especially true for people, I assume, like your parents who had no offer of employment when they arrived in the UK.

I am happy to hear that your brother is successful and articulate but I am not sure that is relevant to this debate ..

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What? are you serious ? The president of the USA may have influence and power but he is absolutely not the leader of the free world



With those opt outs and all the others we have what's the point of being in the EU .It's absolutely ridiculous being in the EU and opting out of everything that makes the EU

Really ? and you know this how

---------- Post added at 16:59 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ----------

Reducing and limiting immigration does not mean stopping it .This idea that remainers have that people will be kicked out and immigration set at zero is just more scaremongering imo

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Control immigration not stop it. My brother? - we are no relation. My support for Ramrod is because he talks sense.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

OK, there's nothing in writing to say that but as the most powerful nation in the free world I argue that he leads it. I get that this is subjective.

No one ever suggested the UK opted out of everything unless they meant Brexit. Free trade and the chance to influence standards that govern its industries are two great reasons for a country to be in the EU and not outside it.

On Monday we became the sixth largest economy falling behind France; on Sunday we were the fifth largest and ahead of France. So we're poorer already. Anyone taking a trip abroad will notice this.
The increase in costs of imported goods will start to impact our spending power next year when the existing currency hedges run out. The more that May talks about a hard Brexit, the poorer the country becomes as the Pound falls. We've already seen hefty prices rises from the likes of Apple and Hotpoint and more are on their way.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The vote means we leave the EU but that is really all that was on the ballot and there is nothing stopping Remain voters from advocating for the terms they would rather have and a Britain they would rather see. Brexit was not a mandate for everything you've ever wanted. You can see part of the problem with this in the tension in the Brexit camp with different versions of what it entails. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ne...axes-q0nqrbwtk

Even without that there are 48% of the electorate who didn't vote for this and won't suddenly disappear.

---------- Post added at 17:23 ---------- Previous post was at 17:20 ----------

The government talking as if foreign-born doctors can stay 'for now' and companies have to publish the numbers of foreign workers doesn't suggest a country that simply want to control immigration but one which wants to get of them. If qualified doctors who are here already aren't safe then you can't really say this is about low-skilled migration or uncontrolled migration - it's about getting rid of foreigners.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

... and of course the Euro will never fall when the banking crisis inevitably erupts good and proper in Italy for example. Right now the focus is inevitably on the UK, that won't last forever and the Euro will sooner of later reflect the fundamental
problems within the Eurozone. When it does the Euro will fall relative to Sterling and the situation will be reversed. No doubt at that time the threat to the UK will suddenly become the relatively high value of Sterling. :spin:

We're all aware that the UK faces problems but your argument re the relative prosperity of the UK v. EU fails to acknowledge the massive problems facing the EU which aren't going away any time soon and which will have a greater impact on us inside the EU than outside.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

So do you think, with the Brexit mandate to "control" immigration, migrants from Latvia would be allowed to live here if they so desired?

I just don't understand the contradiction. Ramrod seems to support a position that it seems would have prohibited his parents settling here in the UK in the first place.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Up to now we have opted out of the Schengen area,the Euro ,the Economic and Monetary Union ,we have opt outs from justice and home affairs legislation(130 in total) and the Fundamental Charter of Human Rights .

a la carte membership is really getting up the EU nose

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I was not comparing the UK to the EU. I was asked for evidence that the country was poorer and I supplied it - we've fallen to the sixth largest economy. As a patriotic Brit I'm saddened by that.
I wasn't answering a question on problems in the Eurozone. Interestingly, it did once look as if the Euro would implode but now it looks as if the worst is behind it. I'm no fan of the Euro project and I've been surprised that it has survived but survive it has and I can't see it imploding. But then if there's anything the last few months have shown, anything can happen! :D

---------- Post added at 17:46 ---------- Previous post was at 17:40 ----------

Yes, that's not everything. It does appear as if we've got the best possible deal right now within the EU. That's one of the ironies of the situation.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

yeah i read your link from the other day and got a very different impression than you .I got that we will train more of our own doctors relying less and less on foreign born doctors.Also making the doctors work for he NHS for at least 4 years as repayment for the free training

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Why when I said, quite clearly,

do you transpose this into:

You need to come to accept that the debate on Brexit is still ongoing: what it means in terms of implementation and how/when it plays out.

Just because you "won" the binary referendum vote does not mean that the complexity of our relationship with the EU is resolved.

Let me make this point: for the decades when this country was part of the Common Market/EU, did you accept this as a fait accompli and shut up? You do not need to answer that :)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

in 5 yrs time we could very easily be back to number 4 when the eurozone collapses which is being predicted by just about every financial institution on the planet

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You were saying that the UK will be worse off as a result of Brexit and the resulting fall in the value of Sterling:

... and I'm saying that staying in the EU would not really have changed that in the longer term for a number of reasons. If you look back our position in the league table of largest economies has changed before due to currency fluctuations - it goes both ways and has pros and cons.

The worst is certainly not behind the Euro, there's plenty more to come but I guess we'll have to differ on that. Time will tell one way or the other but I think we can agree we're in uncharted territory and that's why Sterling is suffering - uncertainty.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yes, worse off than it was before, not benchmarking it to the EU.

Agreed we're in uncharted territory. Trying to agree with you but it's not just uncertainty that has knocked the pound down - the markets have judged that the UK will be weaker outside the EU and have priced in a reduction to the £ accordingly.

---------- Post added at 18:02 ---------- Previous post was at 18:01 ----------

Any links?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm pretty sure we flip flop fairly regularly with France on the 5th - 6th richest actually, this is nothing new.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

because you posted the highlighted section ,it just seems that some sections of the remain camp have gone to extremes re immigration .There will be no forced repatriation (with the exception of criminals i hope) and i would say that in reality after Brexit immigration will stay largely unchanged for the first few years until policies take effect

---------- Post added at 18:06 ---------- Previous post was at 18:03 ----------

Can't you see though that piecemeal membership simply does not work it never has since we joined the EEC ,we have always been at odds with the fundamental ideals of the EU hence the numerous opt outs

---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:06 ----------

http://uk.businessinsider.com/joseph...he-euro-2016-8

https://www.ft.com/content/5726e610-...d-0dfe89910bd6

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...oseph-Stiglitz

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-warns-moodys/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...s-french-bank/

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...oros-investors

There's pages and pages of predictions of the collapse of the EU and the euro

---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:26 ----------


I'm not sure how reliable the IMF is but you seem to approve of their predictions so i'll leave this for you

https://www.theguardian.com/business...nd-brexit-vote

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

They were dispossessed refugees from a war, the same as my grandmother was and some of those legitimate people in calais, are they coming here like our ancestors did?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think you are putting words in people mouths here. Can you stick to what people actually said?

My point is that Brexit, as understood by a large number of peoiple who voted for it, *mandates* controlled immigration:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/10/22.jpg

This policy would preclude the ability for European (and other) migrants to come here without some employment prerequisite.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We don't - this is something entirely new unfortunately.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's been new in the past few months IIRC. Back and forth because of sterling I think.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Pre the EEC we struggled with inefficiency, strikes and high unemployment. We've now got record low unemployment and culturally and sportswise we're doing well and punching above our weight.
But I get why it doesn't feel that everyone has enjoyed the country's success. The austerity measures have meant cutbacks left right and centre whilst at the same time our schools have been filling up with children from eastern Europe whose parents are eager to be part of an open, tolerant and successful country. And those in some professions have felt the pressure from Latvian lorry drivers and Slovakian secretaries. So, whilst the UK has been performing well in many ways, I appreciate that you may not feel that everyone has shared in its success.

---------- Post added at 21:18 ---------- Previous post was at 21:16 ----------

I've never expressed an opinion on the IMF's predictions.

---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:18 ----------

It's a 30-year low against the dollar that has caused the UK to fall to sixth place. We've been consistently ahead of France until now.

---------- Post added at 21:23 ---------- Previous post was at 21:21 ----------

I appreciate your time in compiling these links. Thank you, I will take a look.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Possibly. Ask not what our country can do for them - ask what they can do for our country (apologies to JFK).

Not necessarily. Europe is a safe enough sanctuary.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

So was Europe after the war, didn't stop our relatives coming here

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Perhaps some will come. I dunno!

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

fair to point out that many advertised jobs are fake ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

They came 70 years ago, both Ramrod and my families had connections to the SS back then as well incidentally.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

True and have been there and done that but the key is not give up on your first application.

as the article was quoting vacancies as per ONS and not monster.co.uk I think we can assume it's there or thereabouts ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Reviewed the links. Thank you again. Interesting to see that George Soros and Joseph Stiglitz predict it which give it gravitas in my book. Less surprising was the appearance of Mervyn King along with a book to sell.
Could only find one financial institution that predicts the end of the Eurozone (Moody's) so no evidence has been supplied that virtually every financial institution on the planet has has predicted it. Doesn't mean it won't happen. Logically, I don't think institutions would predict such an event as they would suffer from it so I was very surprised to see your assertion that virtually every financial institution on the planet is predicting it. They aren't.

---------- Post added at 08:50 ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 ----------

So economic migrants then, not refugees? At times it can be a bit of a blurred line.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

As genuine refugees, fleeing communist persecution, probably yes.
Then again, since socialism/communism is effectively taking over by stealth in lots of places, possibly not!

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Where is this happening? I wonder what exactly you define as socialism/communism. I think you lump general authoritarianism with communism but sometimes you also chuck liberals in there when liberalism is the opposite of it. You can't be a liberal communist, it makes no sense.

Look at Russia these days. They're not really advocating socialism anymore but they are still very authoritarian and feed into the alternative right-wing that exists in the West, not because it's right-wing, but because they're against the liberal Western establishment. It's certainly not as simple as left/right anymore and the extremes of either side seem to have more in common.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Sounds ominous, but it might be that your family was well-to-do rather than murderous. The well-heeled tend to be attracted by power.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

"in the context of the treaties"......and we still got bugger all. Nuff said......

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's really not something 'entirely new' at all.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a7101361.html

Currency rates can fluctuate wildly and quickly for all sorts of reasons* and nobody is claiming that these movements aren't important or potentially damaging but they do result in GDP league table changes and they often have little to do with the fundamentals of the economies in question. The French economy hasn't been transformed over night any more than ours has and the next hit of really bad news from the EU will see the Euro fall.

* Remember George Soros and the ERM crisis?

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

Yup! :tu: Bugger all movement was possible and even the very real threat of one of the EU's largest economies and net contributors leaving, didn't force a rethink. That sums up the EU nicely for me too.

I'd always thought the EU has long been engaged in kicking a can down the road but IIRC George Soros is on record as saying it's more like kicking a ball up a hill...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Of course it hasn't especially given the time frame involved - it does, however make a great soundbite to pronounce woe to all.

I'm unclear why the remainers still think we all want t don black jackboots and start closing everything down. No one I know does, yes I'd like to restrict immigration to something manageable, even the most zealous left wing luvvie must recognise circa 300,00 annually - that we know of is a bit... crappy really.

I don't think it's all fluffy unicorn farts to the sunset either, I fully acknowledge it will be difficult and not 'instant great' In the long run though I think we'll be better off, especially if Europe falls.

I'm especially thankfully that we at least have the chance to do something for us, without the handicaps or advantages the EU gave us, I suspect if we had left it another 5 years or so, there would have been enough 'tactical' voters in Scotland and 'people of foreign origins' in London & other big cities to thoroughly put the kibosh on that idea forever.

We're masters of our own destiny now, and how we work towards that will determine how we end up - it would be nice if we all worked towards that goal to ensure that the best possible outcome arises.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Well hopefully... :erm:

Yes that would be the sensible thing to do wouldn't it. If they decision is made, as we've been promised, there's little point in going over what would have been etc. We need to get on with determining what will be and panicking, talking ourselves down or whatever serves no purpose other than to harm our chances of arriving at the best possible outcome whatever that turns out to be. No there's no room for complacency about the UK's prospects or the problems ahead but we can't afford to be defeatist now because that could well turn out to create a self fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

This is an article from a supporter of Brexit who also thinks May has taken the worst possible message from the vote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-illiberal-br/

---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

And another one: http://www.andrewlilico.com/2016/10/...foreigner-one/

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Opinions are going to vary and change on all of this as it's highly contentious and a massive step. I don't feel concerned about the message being given re immigration and neither does my wife and she's an immigrant too BTW albeit not one who had the right to just come, live and get benefits here - NO RECOURSE TO PUBLIC FUNDS was stamped in her passport.

What we mustn't forget is that things are changing in the EU too, largely not for the better IMHO and not due solely to Brexit (e.g. migration, banking crises, austerity, unemployment etc.). It's perfectly likely that the EU is going to turn into a worse place than it currently is and not necessarily remain something we'd want to be a part of. Over the decades it's proved virtually impossible for the UK to really change the EU much so I don't really think if we'd stayed in we'd have been able to influence these matters, prevented the rise of the right wing parties or avoided the impact of Eurozone woes on the UK. The political reaction we're seeing across Europe is the direct result of the unwillingness of the Eurocrats to listen and change course.

The EU is a behemoth which clearly can't keep up with its own problems let alone the fast changing world events which are the cause of some of them. IMHO it's had its time and we're, regretfully, better off out of it but will never be immune to the problems it faces.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKCN1260NG



---------- Post added at 13:49 ---------- Previous post was at 13:44 ----------

The context of the treaties is that there are prexisting commitments, agreed by 28 states, and varying them unilaterally to accommodate one wasn't going to happen. Not that the treaties meant that they could give us whatever we asked for.

It kinda summed up the UK's entire relationship with the EU in a nutshell. Keeping heads down and abiding by some of the rules religiously, while demanding many opt-outs from others and periodically demanding others be changed for our benefit exclusively every so often.

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:49 ----------

That's actually very perceptive.

---------- Post added at 13:58 ---------- Previous post was at 13:54 ----------

Canada, Australia and many others take in more per head.

Canada, population 35 million, are taking in between 280,000 and 305,000 this year, plus refugees, Australia 190,000 permanent economic migrants alone on a population of 23.1 million.

That we can't handle less than 0.5% is a bit... crappy really.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We are also significantly less in landmass size than either Canada or Australia, plus we've been taking in those numbers for a long time now. In addition to that, we take in anyone with 2 arms or legs, you can't say the same for the other Countries, Australia in particular is vigorous in their system - if you're of no use to them, you ain't stopping.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We have no shortage of land for development. There's more land given over to golf and grazing horses than housing. Much of those countries hardly anyone wants to live in - the vast majority of Canada's population reside in a fraction of the land mass, same for Australia. Nunavut is not a hot spot for migration.

I know Canada better than Australia and can assure you they've been taking in people in far higher quantities than us for longer. They were taking in over 200,000 skilled workers a year at the back end of last century.

So it's not actually the numbers you have a problem with, it's who? Just FYI Canada took in 25,000 Syrian refugees in a 3 month period end of last year / early this one. That on top of the families and other refugees coming to the country. Canada has plenty of migrants doing unskilled or semi-skilled work.

Never been anything stopping us controlling numbers from the Indian sub-continent. You know, a couple of countries immediately come to mind from around there whose unemployment rates are 50%+ higher than native Britons, and who when they are working earn significantly less.

Easier to blame EU migrants who have a higher employment rate and claim less welfare per head than those born here than ask the government why it did nothing about them I guess.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Correct - yet another important point which is often overlooked. The UK simply cannot continue to absorb migrants at anything like the rate over the last decade. The only question is when we act and I'd prefer we were able to excercise full control as soon as possible so that we can admit the people we really need, give work permits etc. but not continue to confer citizenship rights etc. The idea that we need more migrants to look after an ageing population is self-fulfilling unless we can control who comes here and how long they are allowed to remain.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That's just a giant Ponzi scheme and we all know that they end in tears for the majority.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What now?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Pretty much means Mark Carney is gone. If foreigners can't advise on Brexit then his job must be untenable as head of the BoE? They've gone as far as dual nationality as well.

Liam Fox (i think) said that we would get the best trade negotiators from around the world to help and advise. I guess he didn't clear that with May.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Sorry Chris, will not do that in future but it does make it harder to respond to points in a long post.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet
We have no shortage of land for development. There's more land given over to golf and grazing horses than housing. Much of those countries hardly anyone wants to live in - the vast majority of Canada's population reside in a fraction of the land mass, same for Australia. Nunavut is not a hot spot for migration.

Neither is Ilkley Moor nor Saddleworth Moor.

I know Canada better than Australia and can assure you they've been taking in people in far higher quantities than us for longer. They were taking in over 200,000 skilled workers a year at the back end of last century.

I'm glad you qualified this with the word "Skilled". Both Canada and Australia were relatvely "young" countries recently released from the yolk of Empire. Both had a shortage of "Skilled" workers to expand the economy of their respective countries.

So it's not actually the numbers you have a problem with, it's who? Just FYI Canada took in 25,000 Syrian refugees in a 3 month period end of last year / early this one. That on top of the families and other refugees coming to the country. Canada has plenty of migrants doing unskilled or semi-skilled work.

I don't care about "who" FYI in 1972 the UK took in 27, 200 refugees (within the same period) from Uganda alone. I care more about the fact we no longer have the infrastructre to support those already here and our own citizens. That is what I care about.

Never been anything stopping us controlling numbers from the Indian sub-continent. You know, a couple of countries immediately come to mind from around there whose unemployment rates are 50%+ higher than native Britons, and who when they are working earn significantly less.

Unfortunately that is a legacy of "Empire" Many from last century were citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies which gave them a right to come here at the time (we'd raped their countries after all).

Easier to blame EU migrants who have a higher employment rate and claim less welfare per head than those born here than ask the government why it did nothing about them I guess.

I have no problem with anyone from the EU (or anywhere else) that has the skills to do a job that someone from this country doesn't have.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You could just wrap quote tags round each individual piece of text you want to quote pip, it's the speech bubble icon

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Ta for that TD.

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Meantime back in Eurolalaland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37586587

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Linky

More trouble for EU la la land. Strengthens our hand considerably IMHO.

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Maybe we ought to consider setting up our own trading bloc with dissatified EU and non-EU countries alike.

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what ! trade outside of the EU ? what about all the negative consequences and the fear of leaving mumys teat ? how can we possibly survive without orders from over there ,its almost like taking back control of our lives and our country :shocked: ooh i feel faint .surely there's an EU rule against standing on your own ......

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I think the Eurocrats have let power go to their heads.

If this turns out to have any mileage it makes you wonder how the so called 'experts' who're widely quoted on the subject of Brexit, don't seem to have picked up on this possibility beforehand. :shrug:

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What should we do about the EU migrants already living here?

http://cableforum.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33703753

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Nothing

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Possibly nothing. Nothing just yet.

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This has the potential to explode out of control.

It seems we have the current government following ideology rather than common sense, and the EU leaders acting like children who want to be hard on us out of spite.

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Pah it's what was voted for, who cares if it costs the country 66 billion quid a year, they're probably telling lies anyway, poxy experts we're sick of them to apparently

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-single-market

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Absolutely, we got our country back!!*


*albeit with loss status, 66 billion a year, Financial passport, my eu passport to go anywhere I want in Europe , my freedom to work anywhere in EU, freedom to live anywhere in Europe

but hey we can now get rid of those pesky EU foreigners that we blame from housing shortage, job shortage, cheap labour, cheap meat, the plague, eh?

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just leave, clean break. hard Brexit then negotiate, if we covet the customs union then the EU think they have leverage over us.

If they want to slap tariffs on our exports, we can slap tariffs on theirs I'm sure they'd love their Audis, BMWs, VWs, Champagne, prosecco, cava, cheese to be more expensive against cars from the far east, sparkling chardonnay from the US and Australia.

In regards to this latest headline. you must always read the detail.

That's possible prediction 15years into the future. Nobody can predict 15years into the future. Most forecasts rarely go beyond 3 years.

More scaremongering from the remaining remainers.

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:clap::clap:

They'll only be cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

Remember that the source of this report is the treasury that is stuffed to the gunwales with frustrated remainers. What else would they say?

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Can you explain something to me?

Can you tell me why when someone forecasts something that you don't agree with you poo poo it. Yet you firmly believe that 'they'll only be cutting their noses off' ?

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Until people understand the impact of the single market goes beyond tariff-free trade then everyone will assume it will be easy/simple.

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What is it about being controlled by an unelected, anti-democratic beurocracy that you remainers like so much? :confused:

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Don't ask me, I would have voted to abolish the Lords.

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I have absolute zero trust in our supposed politicians who have time and time again screwed people over to benefit only themselves. I wouldn't trust them to feed my dog never mind run a country.

Personally, and as I've stated before whilst the EU is not without it's faults. It has given us many positives.

What makes you think that we will be better off out?

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Yup, it's not as though the EU is currently a model for success is it. It's lurched from grotesque wine lakes and butter mountains to appalling austerity, huge unemployment, social unrest, out of control migration and serious cross border antagonism all exacerbated by institutionalised dogma, dithering and in-fighting along the way.

I'd have some sympathy with the remain standpoint if the EU was actually working but it's never been more divided IMHO and what lies ahead doesn't look good to me. Why would anyone want to be tethered to all that? :confused:

I think a lot of remainers are in denial about just how bad things are over there when the constant flow of EU migrants into the UK* ought to suggest the clear answer. The EU isn't what it could and should have been. It clearly isn't capable of reform and therefore, regretfully, we need to get out and have made the right decision and at least we can vote our failed policymakers out if we decide to.

* and further afield

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These are exactly my thoughts.:tu:

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The main issue isn't what the EU has or hasn't given us (there are pros and cons), it's is the EU going to survive and prosper? Given what's going on (and has been for quite a few years now) what signs are there that the Eurocrats have learned anything and/or that the EU has finally turned the corner? Sadly, I don't see any... :shrug:

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I wouldn't want to predict anything like 15 years ahead, europe (or the EU) may not even exist, at least we'll be clear of it prior to that, and already set up.

I doubt the current status quo we have would be the same in 15 years in any case.

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And that's the EU's fault because........

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And it's not the EU's fault because?....

These issues have been discussed here many many times and there's really no point going over them again. Admitting Greece into the Eurozone would be a very good start but there are many other reasons and the EU's one size fits all economic policy would be the biggest.

The problems the EU is facing aren't conjecture, they're happening. If massive, long term, unemployment in Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, France etc. etc. isn't the EU's fault or even its responsibility what on Earth is the EU for? :spin:

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Would you like to answer the question?

I can find no evidence supporting what you're saying. If you have some, please present it.

Again, you seem to be not fully reading posts. No one is saying that the EU is not without problems, some significant. BUT people who are calling for 'hard brexit' and 'people will want to trade with us' is the stuff of pure conjecture. Only a tactically naive/inept individual makes a decision without having at least some firm evidence as to what the alternative is.

Fault and responsibility are two completely different things. Whilst the EU may have to take it's share of responsibility for long term unemployment rates in the countries you have specified it is not necessarily the EU's fault that they have occurred.

'Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread'

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Try again.

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If you're sole aim is in being petty and one upmanship then I'll just leave it there.. however, if you're actually interested in having a reasonable intelligent conversation then lets continue.

Over to you...

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I have read what you said.

If you cannot see that the EU's economic policy is directly responsible for creating unemployment in the Southern European states (in particular) to the benefit of Germany then I'm afraid nothing I can say will change that. Their policy failure has created and/or exacerbated these problems and I'd say that means it's their fault. Who would you blame?...

There's an entire thread on the Eurozone and all the arguments and evidence is there ad nauseam but the adverse effects of having no capacity to vary internal interest rates or devalue your own currency in times of need is undeniable.

---------- Post added at 11:40 ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 ----------

Petty? I was referring to you reading my original post again as I'd added information in the time between our posts.

You talked about reading posts remember. ;)

If you want a debate on the failure of the EU's economic policy and my feelings on it you can search the Eurozone thread. There's no point going over it all again here so I've said all I need to and given you a starter for ten.

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OK, so, we have a slight change in your original statement. The EU is directly responsible for economic failure in southern member states. not as a whole as per your original post.

Would you agree that not only Germany has benefitted from this?

Also, have you considered what happens IF as a country we got it wrong? whilst we have disagreed on many things on these forums, I don't doubt your intelligence. As such I can't believe that you haven't thought about what could happen IF the exit goes wrong

So i guess it comes down to a few things.

1) Do you believe our politicians our competent enough (and i see no evidence to support that they are) to be able to manage this situation.
2) What is your plan for IF it goes horribly wrong?

As a remainer, if and when the sun comes out I'm prepared to take it on the chin and say 'You know what I got it wrong'

If it all goes horribly pear shaped what will you say?