re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

*Sigh* I was waiting for this one....

This is how the European Council works! In a number of areas, including, in this case, social security, unanimity is required to pass a vote. Malta has as much sway as Germany in these cases.

The UK exercised the rights of veto to prevent stronger anti dumping tariffs for chinese steel for example. The government pretty much threw the european steel industry under the bus.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Iain Duncan Smith making a speech on this subject now here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36050790

I haven't heard anything new yet but it seems to be concentrating on the negative impact of uncontrolled EU migration so far. More to come no doubt.

His argument aside, he is deeply uninspiring...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Tory party is so screwed after this vote. Unless it's so decisive that the losing side has to retreat then they're going to be at each others throats for years. Anything around 55% to the winning side or less and trouble.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Tory party has always been this way over Europe. It's part of being free within the party to have differing opinions over various aspects. Other parties either comprise of people with more focussed views or it's part of the parties beliefs so you agree when you join.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That really puts into perspective just how rubbish the 'opposition'* is. Where are they in this vital debate? :shrug:

Cameron surely will go, one way or the other, if we vote to leave and the splits amongst the Tories will endure just like they always have.

* gross misnomer

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That'd be worth something if the opposition was credible. As it is, basically we're all screwed regardless of party unless theres some significant leader changes on all sides.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

... and as if by magic, Labour have just launched their latest battle bus.

LABOUR

I N

FOR BRITAIN

I'm sure it'll be just as effective as all the others... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think they forgot two words "got it"

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuPvviEaNWo :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well he made another howler today the said Cameron by commenting at a reception for the Queen's Birthday that two countries were the most corrupt in the world not realising the mics could pick him up. hehe. Cameron OUT. Britain OUT!

---------- Post added at 16:19 ---------- Previous post was at 16:14 ----------

Actually there was a lot of truth in what he said. BBC did the math in Fact Check and proved him right.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Link?

---------- Post added at 16:40 ---------- Previous post was at 16:23 ----------

I used to have lectures in that very room. Go me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is the Reality Check Link but it doesn't seem to be there yet. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum

BBC are running a check on what he said every hour. BBC News Channel.

Scrap that check out this one http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-po...endum-35603388

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That was last updated on the 9th?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

For our undecided friends and those who are voting remain, I've decided to try and help by getting a reality check from the BBC. Hare are the first few.

The claim: 100,000 jobs in north-east England are dependent on EU membership.

Reality Check verdict: The research does not suggest all these jobs are dependent on EU membership, so there is no reason to think they would all disappear if the UK left.

Read the full Reality Check here.

The claim: EU countries buy 44% of everything we sell abroad.

Reality Check verdict: The 44% figure is a bit of an overstatement, but not by more than about two percentage points.

Read the full Reality Check here.



The claim: Leaving the EU would put £250bn of trade at risk, according to Britain Stronger in Europe.

Reality Check: The group has taken a set of figures predicting the benefits of EU membership and used that to reach a figure for the risks of leaving. It would not necessarily work like that. Also, the figures include imports, a fall in which would not necessarily be a bad thing.

Read the full Reality Check here.

The claim: The UK exports five times as much to the EU as it does to the Commonwealth.

Reality Check verdict: Yes we do. The UK's export of goods and services to the Commonwealth in 2014 were worth £47.8bn. The comparable figure for the EU was £228.9bn. It's worth noting that the UK does plenty of business with countries that are part of neither group - for example, we sell twice as much to the USA as we do to our biggest EU partner, Germany.

Read the full Reality Check here.

Or read it all here : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-po...endum-35603388

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

OOPS IS THAT CAMERA RUNNING

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...en-foreign-aid

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's that Gordon moment. :rofl:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

At least he was right, however, unlike Brown. :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't suppose you can see his lips moving though.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Brexit inches ahead of Remain in latest EU referendum poll

The survey, which was conducted by YouGov for The Times, showed that 42 per cent of people supported Leave, as opposed to 41 per cent who supported Remain.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/30/brexit...#ixzz48H3wh7lR


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/30/brexit...#ixzz48H3kT2VI

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just THREE PERCENT Of The BBC’s EU Topic Guests Are Eurosceptic
:rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As usual Breitbart are being misleading.

First of all it doesn't appear to be the 'Institute of Economic Affairs' which has found that out via a 'detailed analysis'. It's a chapter of a book by the IEA arguing for the privatisation of the BBC which is quoting 'News Watch' who are responsible for the statistic quoted in that article.

I am not actually sure who News Watch are. This is their site: http://news-watch.co.uk/contact-us/ since they're actively soliciting complaints about the EU referendum as well as creating a new site called 'BBC Compliants' I am not sure how impartial they are.

However a chapter in a book quoting an external source with no accompanying data is not a detailed analysis.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Staggering hypocrisy from IDS:

Iain Duncan Smith: EU favours 'haves over the have-nots'

Of course, the Tory party isn't the party that "backs the haves rather than the have-nots" is it? The irony ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Personally I loathe IDS and the leave campaign need someone better to present their case many haven't and won't forgive him for what he did while DWP minister. At this point no one on either side should look to the media for reliable information which says it all about the state of national media in the UK. As I've said I'm voting to leave mainly for my kids, a UK totally free to make it's own trade deals, make and implement it's own laws and handle it's own foreign affairs not follow what has already been and what looks set to get worse Eastern expansion by the EU.

Leaving I believe will make the UK a more global outward looking nation not a xenophobic septic little isle as some believe. British people are basically fair and tolerant people with a good sense of justice and fairness and despite the EU those values are still present and strong. I also don't believe any of us truly know the future plans of the EU as they will not be clear or honest about them and leaks are only giving us a glance and that's enough to have me very worried.

Will trade be affected if we leave undoubtedly so, some of our so called European partners will make damn sure of that and for once have been open about it. Will we be at a disadvantage in dealing with the USA no I don't think we will Obama is an outgoing president and his popularity is falling with many Americans unhappy with his approach to the UK amongst many other things. Whoever replaces him I think will be more then happy to have a better relationship with the UK then during Obama's tenure.

For me though whatever consequences there may be with EU trade the rest of the world will be a lot easier to deal with then they currently are and within a short time I believe the UK can forge better and more long lasting trade relations to replace any EU deals we lose. Let's also not forget the UK is not the only nation getting tired of the EU, citizens in many of the western European nations are not happy or satisfied with the current EU situation and if the UK votes out it won't be the last vote on it other nations principally the French and Germans are likely to have to give their citizens a choice.

The unknown is always a bit scary and thats what the in campaign is playing on with ever greater ramping up of dire predictions if we vote out. The UK has, is and will in future be a strong nation we thrived before the EU we can do so again after the EU. I'd rather take our chances on our own then be swallowed up into some mega European state doomed to failure likely with a lot of bloodshed as it dies.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Shall I tell you in one sentence what a remain vote will mean?

The EU will clamp down on the UK and impose more laws and people on the UK thus making things much worse than they are now.

Yes. They will see a remain vote as being happy with the status quo cos there is as much chance of the reform the UK wants as me going to the space station on the next shuttle to replace Tim Peak.

They'll come down on the UK so hard we won't know what's hit us so I advise a Leave vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sounds a bit like 'Project Fear' to me...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So what will they do then?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fear of the known can be just as motivating as fear of the unknown.;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm willing to start a fund to send you :D

Remind me please what you think the EU is? When I last looked we were part of the EU. The EU does need reform like giving more power to the parliament which is after all elected and not appointed.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Totally agree. I don't pretend it will be easy at first as I said with the Scottish referendum but in the long run it will be worth it. The trouble is that people want things yesterday and are not prepared to wait. If you want the benefits, you have to work for them.

You want scaremongering, I'll give you scaremongering.

The EU protects workers rights: Paid holidays, time off and good working conditions. Leaving the EU could put that in jeopardy. The words of David Cameron in his speech on Monday.

Truth: Is he saying he's going to take that all away from our workers if we vote leave? Utter clap trap. Our Government will protect the rights of workers or they will have a revolution on their hands. We won't lose that if we leave the EU, it's pure scare tactics, nothing else.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Erm, he's saying that a future government could, not that he would - I think your fervour is turning into rabid hatred...

Amusingly, you accuse him of scare tactics, but only a couple of posts ago you said

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So how would leaving the EU put any of those rights we have gained over the 30-40+yrs in jeopardy ? unless DC or any future Tory government plan on removing some of those rights what was the point of the statement ?

---------- Post added at 15:19 ---------- Previous post was at 15:16 ----------

Exactly , if we remain in the EU our government will be reduced to a simple council chamber ,by voting to stay in we will be giving EU leaders permission to expand their powers not just keep the status quo

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yup. I think there's every justification, after decades of incontrovertible proof, to fear what the EU has become and where it's clearly intent on going. Even at a time of concurrent major crises, they refuse to change direction or learn from their mistakes. This isn't fear mongering, it's fact. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What the EU is, is not what the people voted for in 1975. So we are part of an organisation we had no say over now. So instead of asking if we want to remain we should be asked if we want to be part of a European Super State.

---------- Post added at 18:04 ---------- Previous post was at 18:02 ----------

Watch this space!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oooooooh - I'm scared! :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's not a scare tactic, it's a statement of fact.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No, it's an opinion..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What I said was indeed an opinion but you watch and see. Do you really think they will just forget about it? Look at the facts:

Vote remain and:

You are saying you are happy with the way things are. Why then should they reform?

Why would the European Parliament then pass what little Cameron achieved? It only takes one country to veto it.

Why should they treat the UK differently to other EU countries? If they do that all countries in the EU will want it.

We already opt out of the bits we don't like so why stay? We won't be able to opt out forever.

Despite what Remain say, the EU IS heading towards an European Super State. Do we really want to be part of that?

It isn't scare tactics, it's an opinion based on simple logic. If you're happy with the way the EU is now and the direction in which it is headed then by all means vote Remain. If, however you believe what I and other leavers say about the direction it's taking then you have to vote Leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is that a fact? :D ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU has a stated aim of ever closer fiscal and political union. It is therefore a fact.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The poster I was replying to disagrees with you on that.. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, if, god forbid, we vote to remain in.....I shall enjoy telling you "I told you so" with annoying regularity :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Brexit then Frexit? French presidential hopeful promises country it’s OWN EU referendum

Bruno Le Maire, a former agriculture minister bidding to become the next French president, has pledged he will hold a national vote on a “radical reorientation of the European project” should he be elected to the Élysée Palace in 12 months time.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-Brexit-Frexit

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And I may reply, with annoying regularity, "get over it, you lost..." ;)''

I still haven't decided how I'm voting yet, but I get irritated by the diatribes from both sides.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

All kicked off today. ITV are going to have a debate between Cameron and Farage and Vote Leave aren't happy. This is fair enough since Cameron has reportedly been intentionally trying to sideline anyone from Vote Leave and promote Farage, he wouldn't debate anyone else. Vote Leave and Remain view Farage as a loose cannon with turns off moderate voters which is largely seen as right so it's obvious what Cameron is doing here. He did the same with Miliband in the election.

Vote Leave though went a bit over the top with their statement especially with this ominous threat at the end:

For all the accusations of Project Fear I think this is the first time there has been an implied threat from the people who would carry out that threat. If Vote Leave as so worried about Farage looking bonkers it's probably best they don't go off the reservation entirely as well.

Meanwhile the Governor of the Bank of England has said Brexit could lead to a recession. I think out of all the 'doom' scenarios the most likely is a recession followed by slow growth as the deals start to finalise. It's hard to imagine that we wouldn't enter a big period of uncertainty once the Leave vote comes in.

The FT did a piece on what to expert from the markets: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/a75fc5ae-1...#axzz48NuU44hq

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well we are already in recession so there goes that threat as it clearly has little to do with in or out. I think people in this referendum really need to follow personal belief and vote that way as neither official side is in my eyes reliable or trustworthy with what they say. I have noticed that real hard facts are getting harder to come by unless you really look and lets be honest most wont really look. While i am not overly impressed with the out campaigns they havent gone full on fear tactic as much as the stay in brigade. This referendum is probably the most important vote many will have in their life and the conduct on both sides has been pathetic highlighting how low our standards in elected officials have become and the trend seems to be heading downward. Take the things that our valuable to you personally and decide which serves them better in or out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No we're not. :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well bits of us are...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36266178

---------- Post added at 21:06 ---------- Previous post was at 21:06 ----------

Good advice. :tu:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

the only company doing well is the one making all the Anderson shelters for ww3, hope mine arrives before 23 june .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think those wanting to remain also need to consider what the EU is going to become not just what it is right now. Anyone who thinks the UK is going to stop the inexorable drive to a single European state and all that involves is naïve IMHO. So vote to stay in by all means but realise what you're actually voting for.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't buy that though. Britain has already opted out of parts of integration it doesn't like (Euro, Schengen) but more crucially will retain the option to leave at a later date. We also still have a Veto within the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Our options have diminshed with every treaty and i dont have faith in future politicians not to burrow us all the way into the federal hole which is the endgame of many in brussels. There is no doubt where the eu is going given enough time and passive populations and its a direction i dont believe in or think will end well.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

BRITISH government votes failed to block a single European Union measure during David Cameron's first five years in office, new research showed yesterday.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...ain-five-years

No 10 rejects Boris Johnson's call for Britain to have EU law veto

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...in-eu-law-veto


Measuring Britain’s influence in the Council of Ministers

http://forbritain.org/measuring_brit..._ministers.pdf

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The whole world' economy is in decline so it has nothing to do with in or out.

---------- Post added at 06:54 ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 ----------

So why not just leave now? You are not going to get reforms. Cameron again mentioned vote to remain in a 'reformed' Europe but it is NOT reformed so how can we vote to remain in what does not exist?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What are you so scared of, Dave? the Prime Minister or his office is trying to choose who should be making the case against him.



David Cameron refused to go head-to-head with Boris Johnson over Brexit
Mr Johnson vowed to debate with ‘anybody’ as he promotes leaving EU
PM only agreed to appear on an EU debate programme with Nigel Farage

Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg added: ‘The Prime Minister is “frit”. Boris is a classically trained debater. The Prime Minister is highly competitive and hates losing. He should screw his courage to the sticking place, take on Boris.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz48VtRO1Gs
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's of course your prerogative. What we've seen over the years is that the EU has, in one way or another, always grabbed more powers. My belief is that leopards don't change their spots and there is precisely no evidence that the EU has any intention of reforming itself or changing course.

Do you really think the things you cited are cast in stone because I don't. We've had bugger all influence in the EU throughout the time we've been in the club and that's a fact.

I see the B of E is a fully paid up member of project fear now, quelle surprise...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He won't though. Boris would eat him for breakfast. Nigel, on the other hand, can only talk about immigration so David sees him as the much easier person to defeat in a debate.

I can understand his dilemma. The Tories are divided enough as it is and he doesn't want to make things worse. As if they can get much worse. If it was a head to head as to which of them would be Prime Minister, I wonder if David would take him on?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Does the EUs stated aim of "ever closer fiscal and political union" not make you worry?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron doesn't want to enter a debate where he can only lose ground. It was the same with the election in 2015 with Miliband, they calculated that by taking part in a 1-on-1 debate it would only elevate Miliband to the determent of Cameron. So he refused to take part. The same goes here, Cameron is still largely seen as moderate, pragmatic and statesman-like whilst Farage is seen but non-UKIPers are a bit loopy. They want voters to have this debate seen as Cameron vs Farage, the sane against the fruitcakes. Last thing they want to do is elevate someone serious who will add gravity and legitimacy to the Leave campaign in the mind of voters.

Vote Leave are right to be upset that Cameron is effectively blackmailing broadcasters to influence who they invite in the debate. It is a calculated and cynical move. However this is how politics works and I think it's a tad rich for senior Tories on the Vote Leave campaign to suddenly take issue with the same tactics which won them a majority. They're also incredibly naive to have thought that Cameron wouldn't put everything he has into this campaign and use every trick in the book when they've put his job on the line, the moment IDS resigned and Boris went to Leave they entered this game.

---------- Post added at 09:09 ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 ----------

No because it's just a symbolic phrase. I think that's what some Eurocrats want but they'll continue to face resistance from the member states and their leaders. Few of whom want that. Our change to the treaty which says 'Britain is exempt from ever closer union' is just as worthwhile as a stated aim.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So just what is it about the last 30 odd years of EU reality that leads you to believe it's just a symbolic phrase? It doesn't look very symbolic from where I'm sitting.

The EU is more than capable of changing the rules, moving the goalposts and coercing other nations to get what it wants. If we stay in what's to stop our own government going along with all that using the referendum vote to justify it. Successive govts. have already done just that without asking the public to vote on it - little by little our status has been eroded and the only way we can rid ourselves of any possibility of being further drawn into the EU quagmire is to leave now and I'm praying that enough people can see sense to enable that to happen.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Anyone with any sense will see that it has nothing to do with the EU. The world economies are slowing down and we are not the only one where growth is slowing or going down. Whether we are in or out of the EU it is going to happen. The B of E are only talking about the short term - a kind of mini recession if you like. We knew this was likely should we vote to leave but it isn't permanent and will only last about 6 months.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's not a symbolic phrase. It's their number one aim! They will not rest until we are completely subsumed by them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Number One Aim Indeed. Whilst researching the history of the EU, it has always been their aim. I'm sure I read somewhere that plans were afoot in 1952 for a closer Political and Fiscal Union. It was all kept from us in 1975 but there is no need for it to be kept from us now given the power of the internet.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Bad choice to say this, Ms Lagarde.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrNK9Hq-OYE

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's about this story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36284200

IMF saying Brexit would have bad economic consequences.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What I find odd is that this morning, the Government sneaked out the results of that FOI request about the number of NI numbers handed out to immigrants - 2.2 million between 2010 and 2015, as it turns out, despite official immigration figures over the same period being under one million - yet the BBC is totally ignoring it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...uth-is-as-wid/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That came out yesterday morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36271390

According to the ONS the difference is because these are people that stay less than a year. https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-...e-number-data/

This is largely what people were saying previous to this report as the reason for the discrepancy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35959949

This one is a bit more of an editoral but still worth a read on why these figures aren't the disaster some papers are claiming: https://next.ft.com/content/0110d2a4...7-a4af20d5575e

So they were not groundbreaking figures released yesterday, even if The Telegraph is trying to make it seem like there was been double the amount of EU migration, and the story was overshadowed by the BBC charter renewal, the Vote Leave debate argument and the Tory expenses.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Will it help leave though?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Where does it say that in any EU documentation?
If joe bloggs decided to do a bit of research so he could make his mind up about which way to vote would his research on the EUs purpose and future plans contain an addendum stating that "the bit about ever closer fiscal and political union is just a symbolic phrase and doesn't really mean anything" or will he take the written word as fact ?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

In reality they haven't got a clue who's coming here or how long they actually stay. The figures are based on questions asked of a small sample of people entering the country. The authorities have no idea whether the people answering their questions are being totally honest or not, they have even less idea how many people who may have come here only intending to stay for a short while yet never returned for whatever reason.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/surveys/infor...engersurveyips

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19646459

Anyone would think HMG doesn't really want accurate immigration figures...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't know, up to Joe Bloggs I guess.

---------- Post added at 16:40 ---------- Previous post was at 16:23 ----------

Well they know who are assigned NI numbers and the discrepancy between those numbers and the 'official' figures was what the story was referencing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Your the one who said it was just a "symbolic phrase" i would be interested where you get that idea from,i assume there is some official EU statement to that effect to set our minds at rest and the last 40 yrs of continuing political and fiscal union and our continuing subjugation to the European parliament has just been "symbolic"

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This article from the Economist may help...

http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...st-explains-20

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

so definitely not a "symbolic phrase" then ,more of a " it's going to happen because that's the whole point" sort of thing

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

... and 'that story' amounts to one tiny piece of the whole in/out argument. None of that alters the fact that we don't have a clue how many people are here, legally or otherwise, and as long as we remain in the EU will be unable to stop migration from within the EU, whether it be from existing member states (including those who may be forced to claim asylum elsewhere then decide to come here) or the new entrants the EU seems intent on courting in spite of the problems we're currently witnessing. Cameron's so called 'negotiation' about free movement lasted about 10 nanoseconds from what I can see, which leads me to believe he had no real desire to tackle the problem but had to go through the motions having failed so miserably to achieve the immigration target he set himself.

---------- Post added at 17:27 ---------- Previous post was at 17:21 ----------

... and the UK clearly isn't going to be able to prevent it from happening.

The only thing which has a chance of stopping this ugly EU behemoth is the UK leaving and a number of other countries then following suit but it's a big ask of net beneficiaries to bite the hand which feeds them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is though the story which Chris posted to which I was replying.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's a bit of a stretch from 'hope'...

I hope I'm going to be rich, handsome, and famous, but I don't think it's going to happen...:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I was referring to the bit that said "ever-closer union” written into the EU's founding treaty"
If something is written as part of a treaty it can hardly be considered a symbolic phrase

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly, a vote for stay is to be subsumed into the EU state project.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly. That's what I've been saying all along. It is the whole bloody point of the EU!
An 'in' vote will set us on the path to eventual total subjugation......and no, I'm not being dramatic.

---------- Post added at 20:02 ---------- Previous post was at 19:58 ----------

No, he said that Euro-enthusiasts 'hope'. The EU machine has it on it's 'to do' list.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, considering the Treaty of Rome was signed in 1958, like most "New World Order" organisations, they're not very timely in doing it, are they...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Considering how many countries they are trying to bring together under one anti-democratric unbrella, they are doing quite well.

---------- Post added at 20:43 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

Brexit: The Movie

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am confused as to if the EU are evil schemers who'll bring about the EU super state or important buffoons that will crash the EU project and bring us all down with it....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Probably both.

Has anyone here read the Five presidents report:Completing Europe's Economic and Monetary Union.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU is not evil it's just what they want. They want a Super State to ensure that WW II and the like doesn't happen again. This can go 2 ways IMO.

1. We vote to stay and the eventual outcome is a European Super State.

2. We vote to leave and the EU is finished.

France and the Netherlands have already had murmurings of a referendum if we vote to leave.

I am against a USE. I'm against more of our powers being given to Brussels. I am for total independence and will vote to leave. Nothing will change my mind on that.

---------- Post added at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------

BREXIT CONTAGION: Now nearly HALF of Europeans want their own EU referendum

In a survey of more than 6,000 people - across Belgium, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Poland, Spain and Sweden - 45 per cent said they wanted their own vote of whether to remain part of the 28-country bloc.

And in news likely to shock Brussels officials, almost half of Italians (48 per cent) and four in ten Frenchmen and Swedes (41 per cent and 39 per cent respectively) said they would vote to leave the EU if they were given the chance.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Brexit the movie. What a load of complete rubbish and I say that after watching all of two minutes.

Basically blame the EU bureaucrats because you cant be bothered to go out and vote.

Oh and by the way what useful contributions has UKIP made at the Eu Parliament? I really would like to know.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Glad you watched it all before making your mind up :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I like the budget Adam Curtis though. The voice is so similar it has to be intentional?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If you cant keep your audience even for more than a minute or so, you need to rethink your strategy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i got as far as if :sleep:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I've not watched it yet but can pretty much guess what's in it. What the undecided want are facts, not opinions.

OK so the IMF and BoE came out with their figures painting as usual a picture of doom and gloom but there is a fact in this. NONE of them have been right since at least 2007.

For every prediction the afore mentioned bring out, there are a group of economists who can just as easily produce a plausible set of figures the other way. The truth is we don't know.

What we do know is there will be a short period of uncertainty after the referendum if we vote to leave. More later.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I suspect that the strategy would be to simply say what you want to hear ;)
I noticed this when I went to the Guardians Brexit debate in London a couple of months ago. When the 'in' camp were speaking everyone in the audience listened attentively, regardless of which side they were on. When the 'out' camp were speaking the remanians in the audience simply started talking loudly amongst themselves or heckling the speakers. Pig ignorant rudeness.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed that tends to happen.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i wasn't commenting on the video

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fair d0's. Was just stating opinion. Undecided want facts there is one in that post.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

at this stage in the process i wouldn't trust the undecided to pick their own underwear in the morning -if they haven't got a clue yet they never will have ,well that's my opinion ;)

---------- Post added at 15:22 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

EXCLUSIVE: Would EU believe it! Sam Cam’s family rakes in MILLIONS from Euro coffers

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) figures hidden from the public but seen by Express.co.uk reveal the PM's father-in-law has received at least £614,577.26 in CAP payments since 2008.

Official figures for the scheme, which has been running in its current format since 1999, do not go back to beyond that, but independent data compiled from Freedom of Information requests by an online watchdog indicate Sir Reginald's companies may have received as much as £2.7million in the last 15 years.

Today an investigation by this website exposes how the 58 billion Euro (£46BN) scheme, which was set up to help impoverished farmers, is now being exploited by Britain's landed elite to bankroll their huge inherited estates.

Amazingly the taxpayer-funded programme is handing over hundreds of millions of pounds of our cash to rich aristocrats, fox hunting associations and local councils.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/670...s-eu-subsidies

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He's gonna worm his way out of that too wait and see. However, we know the truth and if we vote to remain we can at least have the satisfaction further down the line of saying I told you so.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

From the end of the article Got to love all the faux outrage...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I was at that too! I didn't heckle anyone though. That said I think you're overdoing it. The only time I saw real heckling was for the Tory woman. Farage did ok and there was heckling of the In campaign too although I will admit not as much. Where were you sitting? There was one person in the top tier who kept shouting 'rubbish' and 'answer the question' at them? :D