Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Informed Consent when it comes to minors is a tricky bit of case law. Generally kids over the age of 12 are considered old enough to give informed consent unless it is in matters of medical decisions (including mental health). I wrote a paper (2 actually) which cited the relevant case law for informed consent from minors, I will dig them out and add the relevant case law to this post. The papers I wrote were on the Biometric Fingerprinting of School Children scandal and the Teen Screen scandal. Watch this space I will post the details shortly.

OK here we go I will cite directly from my paper on Teen Screen:

"Under British Law children are not deemed as legally competent to give consent unless they can be judged to 'understand' the research; this is known as 'Gillick competence' (also known as Fraser Competence)... In 1985 it was determined by the House of Lords that children could only give consent on matters of health care of medical treatment given the following conditions:

'Children under 16 can truly consent to treatment only if they understand its nature, purpose and hazards'
'To be able to consent, the child should also have an understanding and appreciation of the consequences of: (1) the treatment, (2) a failure of treatment, (3) alternative courses of action and (4) inaction' (Kings College London, 2004)"

To my knowledge this is the only current case law with regards to informed consent and minors, so whereas I am not saying informed consent doesn't count on non medical issues, to my knowledge it has never been tested in case law in the UK.

I have some better information with regards Informed Consent in my Biometric Fingerprinting of School Children paper but unfortunately my original paper was kept by my department for it's merits and the digital copy is on a drive which is not currently plugged in to anything so I can't reference it at this time. Informed Consent was a big issues when the biometric fingerprinting systems were introduced in UK schools because they were being used on children as young as 6. I will try to find some more info later today but I have to go to a meeting shortly.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks. Interesting, I only raised the point because it may have been another line of "attack" - don't spend more time on this unless you think it may help.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You remember that VM's "Internet Product Architect", Fergal Butler, asked for feedback about VM's Phorm webpage?
And then vanished? (He's off work for very good personal reasons.)

Well this morning saw this illuminating comment to the "virginmedia.feedback" newsgroup that made me chuckle:-
Now if *he* doesn't want to know...
:erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yet another companys selling its wares to corporations.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...social-network
"
Advertisers data mine social network sites

Watching the defectives

By Sylvie Barak: Wednesday, 26 March 2008, 5:08 PM



IN AN AGE where nothing is immune to analytics, market research firm, Network Insights, has jumped on the bandwagon by pimping its social network data tracking services to corporate clients.
...
CNET reports that on Wednesday, Networked Insights re-launched its previous Customer Intelligence Platform, which is an interface that big business use to spy on what social not-workers are saying about them.

They can happily use the interface to gather loads of customer feedback on their brands, directly from sites like MySpace and Twitter, without ever having to ask the actual customer what they thought of the products or those of their competitors.

The system can even purportedly measure the direct "influence" of a particular community member.

As if that form of data mining (or spying, rather) wasn’t enough, Network Insights is also building...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You were not alone - I also saw that comment. That was the second thing to bring a broad grin to my face today, the first being Phorms share price at what appears an all time low...

However, in my own experience, the views of engineering staff, no matter how senior, are seldom taken onboard by management.

---------- Post added at 13:01 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

Did you hear that sound just then? - I think it may have been George Orwell turning in his grave...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well Gillick competence is generally used as a test where children wish to make an informed decision independently of their legal guardians (parents mostly). Generally when it comes to minors it is considered that informed consent from their guardians is enough.

I don't agree with this as I stand by the Statement of Ethical Practice for the British Sociological Association (http://www.britsoc.co.uk/equality/St...l+Practice.htm). I don't agree that any decisions should be made for anyone by another person (unless they are not mentally competent) without an attempt to explain the implications of that consent to the person for whom the consent is being given.

It is easy to slide into a groove where we assume we know what our children want despite having never discussed the issue with them, which is dangerous given how many adults in the world rarely understand the implications of giving their consent in the first place. The danger of giving consent as a guardian is that we could potentially be making a decision which has a long term effect on our children that as an adult they might not have consented to in the first place.

Other issues surrounding normalisation of politically or socially dubious issues could lead to a situation where civil rights and liberties are automatically waved by the next generation simply because they have been raised in an environment where this is normal (such as clicking EULAs without reading, agreeing to credit contracts which don't conform with Consumer Credit Act without reading them, Privacy Issues (how many times have you heard the comment 'If you have nothing to hide what are you worried about' in response to privacy issues?)).

So yes informed consent is very important speaking as a sociologist (well hopefully given I graduate in 2 months) but unfortunately guardians are often seen as the legal authority with regards to consent in matters of law.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's a funny one that.

I haven't read the original article, but on the face of it I don't really have a massive problem with that one, as long as all of the data they're collecting is publicly available - it seems to be pretty much an automated equivalent of getting someone to surf myspace/facebook/forums/etc all day to find out what people are saying about your company.

The company creating the software might be on dodgy grounds with regards to copyright I suppose, but I don't have a big moral problem with companies wanting to find out what people are saying about them in public. It gets a bit sinister when they start talking about identifying the influence of individual people, mind.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How very very telling.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just think, since this thread has been going, Phorm has lost 42% of it's share price!

:-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They are still one spot off from the worst mover of the month, so we have work to do yet ;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/...ont-want-phorm

A very stern message to Virgin Media from us - its time they started taking heed and listening.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I looked at all the trades for the last 8 hours - there's a lot of selling going on.

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...&timeframe=480

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No offence intended here but it needs to be better written and should be published as an Open Letter.

Just my opinion and I appreciate someone has worked hard on it but the grammar is not great (and no I am not claiming to be a grammar expert, mine is pretty appalling).

Maybe some english and grammar experts could add their input and maybe refine the article into an Open Letter?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

www.flyertalk.com

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------

Again this is quite interesting as Disney here in the US, not sure about in Paris / ROW use fingerprint technology to manage the risk that multiday passes, season passes and Florida resident discounts (which are pretty sweet) are not used by anyone but the first user of the card. When you pick the card up or go through the gates the first time a RH Index print is scanned and you then need to verify that on subsequent visits.

I consent to that because well instead of $75 a day to visit the parcs the price reduces to as low as $22 a day (part of that what you get in return for giving up private information) but interesting just the same.
http://www.discountthemeparkvacation...FQEGxwodtXc6Rg
2 day ticket $148 ($74/day) / 10 day ticket $218 ($22/day)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is a very sinister side to that as well though. Say for example a child was abducted from the park; the police/FBI would be able to force Disney to give them access to their biometrics. If they can be matched to fingerprints found at the "scene" you are likely to find you are interrogated even if you had nothing to do with it, simply because at some point in the past (maybe not even the same day) you put your hand on a railing or something.

Once the FBI have those biometrics, they are not going to give them up easily.

In the UK it is even more sinister because you will then be "obliged" to give dna when you get questioned, which will then get added automatically to the national DNA register even if you are not charged and it is an absolute nightmare trying to get those dna records expunged.

I am 100% against biometric databases (and DNA database) because of the serious implications they have with regards civil liberties and human rights. People are often wrongly accused of a crime they did not commit, in the case of a child abduction the consequences of such an erroneous accusation could be catastrophic such as suicide or lynch mobbing (resulting in murder or severe physical harm), family breakdowns and divorce, loss of job, damage to your reputation etc.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes - It was hastily written - I've tidied up some of the errors, perhaps you can point out if there should be something added or changed in the article to make it have more 'humph'. If you know what I mean. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you have not seen it in a while Gattaca is worth watching for a dark look at what DNA ID and DNA profiling could be like in the future.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I have seen it a couple of times, a very good prediction on how things are going I think.

I wrote another paper last year on Privacy in the 21st Century which covered a lot of issues relating to us being one of the worlds leading surveillance societies. if you look at Privacy Internationals league table published earlier this year, we have actually got worse since last years results were published. in the 2006 results we scored 1.5 in the 2007 results we scored 1.4. Interestingly enough Scotland score 2.5 in 2007.

Currently the only countries worse than the UK are Russia, China and Malaysia and we are equal 5th from bottom with Singapore. It is a sorry state of affairs.

I dread to think what next year is going to be like with the addition of CCTV networking, gait and facial recognition, biometrics (like the London transport cards, Airport Staff etc.), vehicle tracking, cell phone tracking (as added to RIPA in October 2007), NHS database etc etc etc the list is almost endless.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

CeeDee, before any personal data '*is* sufficiently anonymised' it has to be collected (there it is again) and processed, and so is always inside the scope of the DPA at that point.

and also why Phorm have seen fit to so called 'Gift' the collecting,processing,profiling, and finally anonymising kit/sw to the ISPs.

its a loophole they know they can slip through ,passing the legal/DPA responsibility to the other guy.

flowrebmit,you give your ISP (or any *companys dealing with your personal data) the right to collect, process and export out of the country all your data as a generic term/clause in your T&C, it has to be there, or they dont have any rights to deal with your data, ever.

you can send a registered DPA Notice at any time to override that generic consent term and instruct them how they may or not use your data from that point on.

IF you dont send that DPA Notice, then the ISP will try and use that generic T&C consent you have given them to justify sending any of your potentially personal data to their cash generators including Phorm Kit.

send your DPA Notice instructing them to stop collecting, processing, storing or exporting my personal data, and they must stop.

although sending such a blunt instruction means that they cant then reasonably be expected to process your data to supply and bill you for the service your paying for.

in effect, you terminate the contract and so are subject to REASONABLE termination fees.

however, if you stick to the generic, you will not collect process,store or export my data except in the very strict basic supply and billing of my contracted services, then your not proventing or restricting them from the basic supply or billing
as per contract, and so not terminating the contract, see the fine line?

and that would stop them sending your personal data (remember the EU DC IP is your PD also) to any internal Phorm kit, but its always better to expressly forbid sending to any Phorm or simular profiling electronic device to be sure.

rememeber, the DPA covers all aspects of your personal data, if you dont want your contracted company to do this or that do that to it, tell them in the official registered post DPA Notice.

and they MUST Comply (and send you by return post, the actions they took to comply with said Notice) or face a Non-Compliance action, and potentially have their DPA licence revoked and other sanctions, NO licence, No way to process your electronic bill data.

*any UK (and potentially any EU) company thats collecting processing,storing or exporting your personal data THAT IS NOT EXPLICITLY under a contract with you is stuffed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey and thanks for not taking offence. I have added some stuff to the article below, please feel free to correct grammar and give feedback.



Cable Forum, the largest online Virgin Media community, is now calling on Virgin Media to ditch its deal with Phorm. 95% of the customers polled in our recent survey have furiously insisted they don’t want Phorm. The storm with Phorm is refusing to go away, as more and more broadband customers learn about the serious ramifications this technology poses for privacy, human rights and civil liberties; not excluding the criminal issues surrounding this technology under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA).

By now many will have heard that BT, Talk Talk and Virgin Media have all signed up with Phorm; a company which gathers profiles of customer surfing habits by installing hardware on the Internet Service Provider's (ISP) network between the customer and the Internet. This technology then intercepts all network traffic using the HTTP protocol in and out of the ISP network in order to scan web pages the customer is visiting to build a profile for the purpose of targeting advertising at them via OIX partner web sites.

This interception has been deemed as an unlawful interception by the Foundation for Information Policy Research (FIPR), a leading government advisory organisation on issues of national policy with regards to privacy. Under RIPA it has been pointed out by FIPR that informed consent must be sought from all parties in a communication before an interception is lawful; given that this would require Virgin Media to obtain consent from every single web site their customers visit (a task which would seem to be impossible in real terms) it would seem impossible for Virgin Media to not be in criminal breach of RIPA should they decide to deploy this technology. In fact many web sites already explicitly deny the interception and copying of their web sites for the purpose of profiling for marketing and advertising (examples include BBC and Amazon to name just two).

There is even the risk that by opting in to this technology (although at present it should be noted that customers will be opted in by default) customers who then initiate communication with a web site which explicitly denies consent to interception could be deemed as complicit and therefore criminally liable themselves under RIPA.

Phorm have vigorously defended and promoted their technology through the use of PR agencies, which in turn have registered on forums (including ours) and blogs to paste the PR campaign notices.

The ethical dilemmas raised on how to leverage more revenue from Internet technologies by imposing on the public's statutory rights to privacy, human rights and criminal law; are substantial and such technologies should never be deployed under circumstances where those rights are devolved. Irrespective of whether the data is anonymised or not; explicit informed consent must be sought by law and can not be undermined simply to turn a profit.

No doubt those who have complained to their ISP were told of the protection Phorm’s "Webwise" claims to offer but these "features" are mostly redundant in the present day due to existing features in most operating systems, antivirus and web browser applications; which use the same industry standard blacklists which "Webwise" are trying to promote. To the less than casual observer, it would appear that "Webwise" was bolted on to the technology merely to "sweeten the deal" and distract customers from the sinister profiling aspects of the technology.

Users have reported that when they complained to Virgin Media, they were told of the importance of online protection and the benefits that Phorm’s "Webwise" could offer, some of Virgin Media's staff allegedly did not even know about the revenue building aspects of this technology with regards to profiling and advertising.

It should also be noted that this issue has been heavily featured in the media and press over the last month, yet Virgin Media have remained silent in response to questions. Virgin Media customers feel this is unacceptable and it is a reiterating concern in the thread on our forums on this issue (a thread which has reached a staggering 2000 posts and 100 000 views). It should also concern you that our very forum was featured in the BBC "Click" television program on [need to get the date].

Even the official petition on the Prime Minister's website is approaching 10 000 signatures, which takes it far beyond the limit required for a response from the Prime Minister himself. Furthermore, many of Virgin Media's customers on our forum have written to MPs and MEPs to bring this matter to their urgent attention and requesting they initiate debate on this issue at the highest level.

The publicity has been so negative on this issue that yesterday the Guardian newspaper publicly announced they had dropped their partnership with Phorm's OIX platform with the following explanation for their decision:

"Our decision was in no small part down to the conversations we had internally about how this product sits with the values of our company."

As the busiest website of the UK press the loss of this partner is a serious blow for Phorm and their investors and should serve as a significant warning to Virgin Media as to how this technology could irrevocably damage their brand.

We feel that given the vast publicity this issue has created, the very adamant views of our users (your customers) and the lack of communications from Virgin Media to clarify matters and address your customer's genuine concerns; that we need to make you aware of these issues and attempt to illicit an official response. This open letter will also be published in the "News" section of our website as will any response we receive.


Something like that I think, open to suggestions and comments. Maybe need to include something about Sir Tim Berners-Lee?

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 16:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

brb need coffee ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For a bit of light relief, pilfered and mildly adapted from an Ars Technica forum discussion about Do Not Call registers, years ago, I present:

The Opt-Out: A Play In One Act


Waiter: "Hi, I'll be your waiter tonight."

Customer: "Great! I'd like the soup please."

[Waiter takes out a hammer, thwaps customer on skull]

Customer: "WTF was that for?"

Waiter: "Sir, I'll stop thwapping you on the head as soon as you TELL me to stop."

Customer: "Why the hell would I have to TELL you to stop?"

[Waiter thwaps customer once more]

Customer: "GOD DAMMIT!"

Waiter: "Just say 'Stop,' sir, and this will all be over..."

YE ENDE

Re: Ironkey
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

nice to see Cable Forum makeing the news rather than just posting the news, it showed up on the wire at
"Listen up now, Virgin Media - Your customers don't want Phorm" Cable Forum 13:38
very quick, so make those copy changes PDQ ;)

user's copyright, ‘commercial piracy’ and the ’safe harbor’ question.

did the UK ISPs in question, infact give up their legal protection in EU law as a mear conduit,by freely signing up and agreeing to ‘a general monitoring of the network’ in that contract for profit.

might be some good points to raise as no front page copy has mentioned these yet. :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My contract with VM is up this time next week.

If they want me to continue paying them some of my hard earned they better listen up!

I'm ready to drop VM the first day they start working with these barstards!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They are officially only monitoring one protocol (HTTP) and it is an automated system with no human intervention, so they may have an argument there regarding "safe harbour".

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

By copy - I think that is well written and will use it instead of the hastily written one I did this lunchtime. If you want me to credit you on the news article, I would be happy to.

CF needs more news writers btw. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Credit me if you wish but I am not going to be anal about it, I am passionate about this campaign and I am happy to contribute in any way I can.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 17:12 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------

You guys got an irc channel?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No - We have a flashchat feature though on the forum that is hardly ever used.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/misc.php?do=flashchat

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I noticed that but I am 64bit Linux and don't have a flash plugin. Might be worth setting up an IRC channel on Freenode or something where your users can discuss these issues in real time. Maybe formulate some ideas for direct action and other methods of educating the general public about this issue.

[EDIT]
I have opened an irc channel on the Freenode irc network. To access the channel and discuss this issue in real time please download an irc client ( http://www.silverex.org/download/ is free and Open Source ) and connect to the Freenode network. If you already have an irc client you can connect by typing /server irc.freenode.net from the command line in your irc client. Once you are connected to the server simply type /join #cableforum to enter the chat room.

If you don't want to download 3rd party software, you can access the chatroom via your web browser by going to:

http://www.mibbit.com/

Here is a screenshot of how the form should look on mibbit to enable you to connect to the right channel and server:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/3417/ircbq7.th.png

Just an idea.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 17:28 ---------- Previous post was at 17:17 ----------

Oh my nick on IRC is Paladine by the way, so if a mod wants to message me when they connect I will give them the registration details for the channel. Alternatively message me on these forums.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

lol so you have learn something new every day

and it certainly is quiet in there ( sounds of tumble weed blowing around ;) )

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hope you don't mind me linking to this in the VM 'feedback' newsgroup. It certainly meets the definition of 'feedback' to me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The old cable forum is still active on quakenet still have some VM staff idling.

#cableforum Frank used to come in a lot at one time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh Mick by the way you need to send that open letter to:

Sir Richard Branson
Virgin Management Limited
120 Campden Hill Road
London
W8 7AR

Anyone else who wishes to contact Sir Richard should use the same address. I would suggest it is about time we started a letter writing campaign to that address. It is amazing how quickly organisations start to pay attention when several sacks of mail arrive every morning. There is a real cost involved in handling bulk mail so it is difficult to ignore something which is eating into your departmental budget like that.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 20:25 ----------

Here is a useful contact (amazing what some digging on the web can do):

VIRGIN MANAGEMENT LTD
Joshua Bayliss
120 CAMPDEN HILL ROAD, LONDON, W8 7AR
Department: Group General Counsel.

Position: Responsible for management of legal functions, advising senior executive committee and for VML's role in group-wide legal matters, principally acquisitions, disposals, JVs and other commercial contracts, and litigation. Also responsible for group company secretarial and intellectual property functions, and management of external legal panel.

Education: University of Auckland (BA; LLB Hons).

Career: Qualified in England and Wales and in New Zealand. Judge's Clerk, Court of Appeal (NZ) 1995; Bell Gully (Auckland) 1997; Slaughter and May 1999-2005; VML 2005 to date.

Leisure: Modern literature, wine, sport.

Phone: 020 7313 2000

E-mail: josh.bayliss@virgin.co.uk

Maybe we should be sending letters and phoning him since he is Virgin Group's General Counsel. I might give him a bell tomorrow once I finish my other chores :)

It is also a good example of just how anonymous anonymous data is. Ironic really.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex,

As a number of us have been fobbed off with a standard Phorm is great mail from Virgin when we've sent them a DPA letter, would sending the same letter to Joshua have more effect as he is responsible for the legal functions?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can't really comment on that either way but at the very least I am sure he won't be too happy to receive thousands of emails, letters and phone calls on the issue ;)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------

Don't forget to ask him which Wine he recommends this summer and what literary works he can recommend for us.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...n_phorm_uturn/

"The Guardian" ditches Phorm.

Let's hope it's the start of a trend.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought it might be useful to list a few published 'contact us' e-mail addresses for Virgin Group companies. These might be useful if you feel the need to warn them of the damage Phorm may be doing to their reputation.


info@virginlifecare.co.za
customer.services@fly.virgin.com
support@virgingames.com
reservation.services@virginholidays.co.uk
info@virginmoney.com
customer.relations@virgintrains.co.uk
bookings@virginlimobike.com
sales@virginballoonflights.co.uk
info@virginlimo.com
Virgingalactic@virgin.com
reservations@virginnigeria.com
haveaword@virgin1.co.uk
cruisesales@virginholidays.com
support@virginbroadband.com.au
info@thevirginvoucher.co.uk
info@vfestival.com
italia@virginactive.it
webadmin@virginactive.co.za
info@virgin-books.co.uk
info@virgincomics.com
info@virgingreenfund.com
enquiry.healthcare@virgin.co.uk
customerservices@virginmega.co.uk
manager@virginmega.com
care@virginmobile.in
sortmeout@virginmobile.co.za
theteam@virginmobile.com
expert@au.virginmoney.com
services@virginmoney.co.za
corporatedevelopment@virginradio.com
contact@virginunite.co.uk
services@virginvieathome.com
help@virginwines.com

This below may be a more useful format for some people who want to paste addresses into their e-mail 'To' fields in order to help to warn these companies more quickly, in a single e-mail.

Some people may want to cc: them when e-mailing VM or Phorm, just to keep them up to date.

BUT please be careful what details you are copying to them, as some of these addresses are in countries
that are heavily associated with internet fraud.

info@virginlifecare.co.za; customer.services@fly.virgin.com; support@virgingames.com; reservation.services@virginholidays.co.uk; info@virginmoney.com; customer.relations@virgintrains.co.uk; bookings@virginlimobike.com; sales@virginballoonflights.co.uk; info@virginlimo.com; Virgingalactic@virgin.com; reservations@virginnigeria.com; haveaword@virgin1.co.uk; cruisesales@virginholidays.com; support@virginbroadband.com.au; info@thevirginvoucher.co.uk; info@vfestival.com; italia@virginactive.it; webadmin@virginactive.co.za; info@virgin-books.co.uk; info@virgincomics.com; info@virgingreenfund.com; enquiry.healthcare@virgin.co.uk; customerservices@virginmega.co.uk; manager@virginmega.com; care@virginmobile.in; sortmeout@virginmobile.co.za; theteam@virginmobile.com; expert@au.virginmoney.com; services@virginmoney.co.za; corporatedevelopment@virginradio.com; contact@virginunite.co.uk; services@virginvieathome.com; help@virginwines.com



Added - i've removed the ones that bounce back as undeliverable (only 2).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Before Easter, I sided with VM in their decision not to make a statement regarding the controversy surrounding Phorm. However, I had expected that after Easter they would make some kind of a statement. The continued silence now, even I find rather puzzling,

Thank you Mick & Alexander for all your hard work and the excellent open letter. Virgin Management will soon be inundated with letters and emails. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've been waiting patiently for the focus to move from Phorm to Virgin Media itself. I think we would be better served by concentrating on our ISP which holds the key to stopping this Phorm nonsense before it starts. There are contributors here with the knowledge, skill and expertise to challenge the insidious Phorm proposals and to encourage Virgin to support its customers as The Guardian appears to have so chosen.

Let's keep our challenge real and determined like the excellent Open Letter directed at VM. The Phorm PR Team only show up here once in a while because they are having to battle on too many fronts. They will lose the war if we stick with the tactics of legal challenge.

Well done all, especially the Cable Forum Team for hosting and contributing to this thread.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Grrrrrrrr!

"Privacy Isn’t Phorm’s Biggest Problem" on Gigaom.

It ends, appallingly, with:
"If Phorm doesn’t succeed, it’s not because it violates privacy, but because it’s selling something of questionable value."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Once upon a time, I was saying the same thing about giving credit card numbers out over the internet -- I think I was right, but a lot of good it did me. Google is getting lots of ad dollars -- the ISP's aren't getting squat. Google gets money because the advertisers get results, so they keep buying/bidding on keywords. Relevance is the big deal -- (well) targeted adverts can be a service, if I want them, and if it is a good deal for me. Virgin hasn't answered the most important five words in the language, "What's in it for me?". Possible answers: money (free or cheaper service- maybe pay me to let them look at me :), unobtrusive ads that are more likely to be for something I might want, satisfying me that nobody is watching me in my weaker moments, and letting me be sure that big brother won't (can't) resurrect my browsing history ten years from now when I am a candidate for ?? Can they do all that? If not, this is something with no quid pro quo -- merely doing "to me", with little or nothing "for me". Are they even trying to answer those questions? If this is the potential gold mine that one report I read said that it was, then hey, let's spread the wealth a bit, eh? I can be bought -- I buy on Amazon all the time, and their ability to anticipate what I am going to do next (based on what I have done there in the past) is remarkable -- maybe it should be scary, but it isn't; it makes my life a lot easier. Come on Virgin -- giving me anti-phishing protection just doesn't cut it. Offer me something that EYE will perceive has value to ME.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you think for one minute you will get compensated via monetary terms for allowing the service, you have been heavily misguided, this is not how this will work.

Welcome to the site tho. :welcome:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[EDIT: Ignore all that, years ago]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A very poorly researched article high on ignorance and low on truth. People get over there and put this sadly misguided individual right!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Amen and I just posted my response to there.

EDIT: the share price has gone up 6.52% so far today. Time to post that follow up letter to liberty and then get chores done. Be back later.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

MP's start to apply pressure over Phorm

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...t_westminster/

That should send the shares into a nosedive :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You beat me to it! :) This is good news.

Keep spreading the word!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And there was me thinking the most important five words were "so, your place or mine" and it was the three important words we were all looking for. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While it is good that some MP's think this is something to ask questions about it's hardly the rush to defend constituents that some of us had hoped for. You might have thought that a proposal to wire-tap millions of their voting constituents (so close to an election) might have generated a bit more interest in The House.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Consumers have widespread concerns around privacy and data protection
http://www.ofcomconsumerpanel.org.uk/news/270308.htm

Doesn't specifically mention Phorm, but even so, it's very relevant.

What's the betting that Phorm PR will use this report to support their pro-personal privacy policy as the Phorm software doesn't store personal info (while carefully neglecting to mention that it intercepts, scans, and profiles as much as it can).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ORG and FIPR meet with Phorm:

http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...et-with-phorm/

...
Nothing Richard Clayton and I saw yesterday appeared to contradict the legal analysis issued by FIPR last week, analysis that raised questions as to Phorm’s legality under section 1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. But the Phorm issue is far more likely to be decided upon in the court of public opinion than in a court of law.
...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've been thinking about this random number that they use to aggregate your browsing habits. Surely if this number is allocated to a specific person/browser/account then it is, by definition, "personal data". The fact that it is randomly generated is irrelevant and is perhaps being used as a smoke screen. What, really, is the difference between your PHORM number, IP number or your national insurance number, other than the fact that a person may have multiple PHORM numbers. Indeed, a person may have multiple IP's but they are still considered personal information.

If this is true, and IANAL, then they are, in fact, storing your aggregated browsing history against your personal PHORM number. The only issue may be whether or not a person can be identified by it. Could we make this it public, say by publishing it, and in doing so, cause PHORM to be in breach of the DPA (even more)?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/19/phorm_8020_pi/

But how does that work. You tripwire the servers and only one code base can be used. What happens when the code changes. A full review again?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK but again - engaging with Phorm. I'm getting tired of various organisations clouding the issue. I don't want an explanation of Phorm's technology. No matter how they spin things - IT'S A WIRE TAP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Trust me, it isn't - Echelon is. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep, that's scary...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's Friday so on a brighter note - oop's Phorm seems to have dropped another 100 points in the last half hour

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've been wondering the same thing. Apparently, however, the number they assign you refers to a specific 'ad-channel', which they assign to you based on the keywords in pages you've looked at. You look at gardening websites, they assign you to the gardening ad-channel by giving you that specific ad-channels id number (or a number that identifies a specific selection of ad-channels, based on your browsing).

I'll stand corrected on that one!

My thought though is that no matter how random the number is, it refers to the type of ads they serve to your computer, so It must be personal, if not to you, then certainly to your computer!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've seen a quote from someone in Phorm this week that the cookie number is actually Pseudorandom. I would imagine that in cryptography circles, that particular word gets a hearty laugh, a nudge and a wink.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can understand how you feel but I personally do want an explanation of their technology. I have pushed hard in my confrontations with the PR team on a few blogs for them to come forward and give some real crystal clear technical answers to the technical questions put to them.

Does that mean that I somehow want to find some sort of compromise with Phorm? Hell, no, it doesnt. I want Phorm to go out of business and drag other companies like them over the abyss with them. It just means that at last we will be getting decent answers. Lets remember, to quote a good old fashioned cliche, "the devil is in the details."

If they do actually come forward and stop spinning and give detailed, non-obfuscated answers to the questions posed to them then maybe, just maybe, there will be a smoking gun in there. Something we can use to truly land a killer blow. At the very least, if they do this, hopefully it will mark a change in direction and the end to all this disingeniuos PR spinning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As there is one number assigned per browser per user per ip then the number would refer to your use of a particular browser in a particular account on a given machine. This is surely personal information. Even if a person can have more than one id associated its still personal information, e.g. bank account numbers. The fact that it is linked to several ad streams is the mechanism by which PHORM works to serve up relevant ads.

All computer generated random numbers are pseudorandom due to the fact that computers, being machines, can't actually generate truely random numbers. This is probably more of the smoke screen. In actual fact, its probably a UUID of some sort that they generate. If they used a lottery machine or something then they could generate true random numbers but they wouldn't be guaranteed unique.

But the point is, random, pseudorandom or even sequential, its still a number assigned to you and as such, it could be argued, is personal information.

I might be barking up the wrong tree but hopefully there's some mileage in the argument.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Definitely, Rather than second hand info, awful Pr spin and our guesswork, lets have a proper genuine investigation from someone who knows what they are talking about.

Even if we do win this battle, it doesn't mean the war is over. There's lots of other companies out there who are waiting to step into Phorms boots. The more we find out now, the better prepared we will be in the long term.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have said it before and I will say it again, we need to concentrate on the criminal aspects of this technology under RIPA not least the fact that this technology could criminalise customers if they visit web sites with expressed terms which deny the right to intercept, if they have opted in.

Remember, ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, so whether you are "aware" of RIPA or not is irrelevant; if you initiate a communication with such a website (like Amazon or the BBC) after opting in to Phorm you are opening yourself up to criminal liability because you are complicit.

FIPR have again stated that they feel Phorm is illegal under RIPA (after visiting Phorm) which just reinforces my point. BT, CPW and VM could literally criminalise millions over night if they deploy this. Also, as I have said before, if you have opted in and the ISP can in anyway wriggle out of criminal charges by passing the buck on to you for initiating the communication after opting in, you can be damn sure that is exactly what they are going to do.

Wake up people, opt-in and you risk becoming a criminal, opt-out and your privacy is retained AND you don't risk becoming a criminal. It is an easy option in my opinion.

Sorry I haven't written any other replies today I have been in bed with a migraine.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed and not only that, as you and others have stated, we need to move some of the Phocus (sorry!) from Phorm onto the ISPs.

:clap: Definately agree. I have posted my letter to liberty (am sure its full of grammar mistakes and maybe not the best written ever) and if I get any response I will post it here. I included my email address in the letter in the hope that it would mean a quicker response. Trying to think positive despite the fact there was no response to my earlier email. I got another response from one MEP but it was just to say they were passing on my letter to another MEP who would hopefully be in touch.

Hope you feel better real soon, Alexander. Migraines can be really nasty/ Luckily I only get migraines occasionally. Get some rest.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know, and because it's pseudorandom, it all depends on what they are using as the seed. If it is something traceable back to you, then it isn't secure. For example, if they were daft enough to use your IP address as the seed and the pseudorandom number generator algorithm became known, then it's the work a few moments to decode the 'random' number in the cookie to an IP address. (even they wouldn't be that stupid though. Would they?)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have just created a petition on the PM website demanding that he instruct the Home Office to initiate criminal proceedings under RIPA against BT for their trials in July 2007. I will post the link once (if) the petition is accepted by the PM web team.

Tonight I am also going to write multiple letters to my MP, MEPs and Lords requesting them to increase the severity of the debate on this issue with particular focus on the criminal aspects of this technology under RIPA. I will post the letters here once I have written them so anyone else who wishes to take similar action can use them as templates. They will be up by the end of the weekend.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have also started a new Facebook group to help raise awareness of this issue. You can find the group here:

Anmeldung | Facebook

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...and Phorm is supposed to ;improve' security?

Possible trivial Phorm opt-in "Exploit" discovered - ISPr Forum

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding last years BT trial and any presecution under RIPA, presumably Phorm would also be presecuted as being party to the abuse?

Suppose a BT customer involved in the trial could show that they, for example, signed any Downing Street petition, during the trial. (This would be authenticated, time-stamped and auditable). Could the PM website (or PM!) be implicated in a breach of RIPA?

Just wondering.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap: You are certainly on good form tonight, Alexander (I was going to spell it Phorm but couldnt bring myself to put their name next to the word good). I will definately sign the petition if its accepted and will mention it on any responses on other forums/blogs.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OF1975

I just had a quick peep at the share summary link in your signature. I was greeted with the following advert.

"Short this share with CFD Trading. Low commission: Equity CFDs (trade from £10)."

Perhaps there is something to be said about targeted advertising! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am also interested in filing for an injunction order from the courts to prevent BT, VM and CPW from deploying this technology. If anyone has any information on how to file an injunction order (not something I have ever done) I would appreciate some input.

The main points I intend to lean on for the purpose of the injunction are:

1. Informed Consent of -all- parties under RIPA
2. The risk of criminalising millions of people by making them complicit in criminal breaches of RIPA

I will be relying on the number of popular sites on the internet which already have expressed terms on their site's denying the right to intercept, such as BBC and Amazon. So I am calling upon this community to try and come up with a big list of popular sites which meet this criteria as this list will be important for both point 1 and point 2. If there are a lot of popular sites with similar terms then the risk of a customer becoming complicit rises significantly.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL Shhhhhhhh whisper that quietly lest the phorm PR team start using that quote against ya LOL

The only adverts I would be remotely interested in right now are adverts telling us how to land a "killer blow" against phorm and others like it.

Its good to see that according to the website in my signature the change in Phorms share price over the last month is down by 48.2%. They are definately wounded at the moment.

EDIT: Alexander, I cant tell you much about injunctions. I failed my law A-level back in 2000 because I had hip replacement surgery shortly before the exam and hadnt really been in a frame of mind to revise properly.

I imagine that you would most likely need to apply to the High Court in London in this instance because of the scope of the injunction. In cases with lesser ramifications I believe some magistrates courts can hear cases that would normally need a high court injunction but I doubt that applies here.

One last note... there is one other possibility... if anyone involved in the BT trials last summer reports it to the police and the police refuse to issue a crime reference number or refuse to investigate then they might be able to apply for a judicial review of that decision although I think typically those kinds of cases are very expensive.

Vis-a-vis building a site list you can count me in. I will get looking.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If we manage to get an injunction issued you will be able to watch Phorm's share price break new records for the worst performing stock ever.

I am going to request FIPR submit an Amicus Curiae for the injunction hearing based on their legal opinion of Phorm under RIPA. I also want to investigate if it is possible for multiple persons to be involved in filing for an injunction, because then we have the possibility of getting thousands of people supporting the injunction application and possibly (if people turn up) a very interesting day at court.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thar ye go .. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...orm_documents/

(But put simply - how can Phorm guess what might interest you unless they have intercepted your communications?)

It's not that I want anyone kept in the dark it's just that the more people concentrate on cookies, psuedorandom numbers and other minutiae the easier it is for Phorm and the ISP's to pass this off as something other than a wire-tap. At it's heart, that is the proposal - to intercept your web activities and analyse them.

Phorm are quite happy for us all to be lost in the detail - it's a distraction, a sleight of hand. Worse, anyone coming to this debate without a technical background just sees technical talk and tunes out.

RE : (http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...et-with-phorm/)

The story annoyed me a little simply because the FIPR had already made a statement on Phorm but now seem to be allowing Phorm to add another "this well respected organisation has examined our systems and ... " to it's PR machine. Effectively neutralising the previous FIPR statement.

I agree with AH on this one - we need to concentrate on the legal/moral aspects.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: No.28 is that Flo_le francais by any chance?, iv been lax in keeping track :naughty:

BTW Mick is the board running slow or being overloaded by the influx of PHorm Guests to this thread right now?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Completely agree and that would be awesome.

Again that would be awesome if the FIPR would do so. I think the best chance from the tiny bit of googling I have done is if you applied for an interlocutory injunction which essentially, if granted, would put a freeze on them implementing the systems until a full hearing could be held. Thats just my two penneth worth though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd imagine Chris Williams at El Reg might have an idea who'd be good to approach for advice on a RIPA injunction. (And he's probably still in contact with the original BT Business victim in Weston-super-Mare.)

Or, erm, Privacy International?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

im in the middle of trying to find the/an answer for you Alexander, i suspect a simple small claim might do it, perhaps even the online website version..

not found it yet but this made me LOL
"Anti-Social Behaviour" and explains some basics too.

http://www.communities.gov.uk/docume...ing/pdf/138685
Anti-Social Behaviour

....

5. Injunctions are

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please anyone visiting that link the story is about, please please delete the cookie afterwards or you will have opt in from an image that doesn't show on the page.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's handy then, one of my best friends is a clerk in my local county court :) I will be seeing him either this weekend or early next week too as I have been fixing his laptop for him :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

will sign that as soon as its up

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL, that helps....

dont forget to write up the step by step, all you need now are the names to include in the injunction application (ASBO for the UK's CEO's and COO's LOL)

he will know about useing the small claims track for this too

there ya go , i know id seen some help , i cant find the online Small claim URL ,its in my bookmarks somewere ,but thats way to BIG ....:erm:

i'd be a lot happyer if MrAngry :waving: were to make an appearance, Top Man for this thread direction.

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/11563.htm 7.12

http://search.opsi.gov.uk/search?q=S...psi_collection

http://search.opsi.gov.uk/search?q=S...psi_collection

http://search.opsi.gov.uk/search?q=i...arch_semaphore

http://search.opsi.gov.uk/search?q=%...psi_collection

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great news and definately speak to them about this and get as much in-depth information as you can. I arent sure that a local county court would have the jurisdiction/power to make a ruling on such an important case with such nationwide ramifications but I could be wrong and by all means get your friends advice and input.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

while iv not really looked that hard, all the Uk law seems to refect that
5. Injunctions are

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you do not own me

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Popper, when it comes to injunctions against an individual/individuals then yes a county court most likely would be sufficient. We arent dealing with a case that only involves one or two people. We are talking about a case that would stop the UKs 3 largest Internet Providers from implementing new technology (phorm) that will affect millions of customers.

I arent a lawyer but common sense tells me that most county courts most likely wouldnt have the authority to make a ruling on something that important. For example, taking the case of Judicial Reviews, my understanding is that those have to be heard in the High Court. County courts only deal with civil matters and given that a large part of the arguments underpinning any application for an injunction refer back to RIPA, which is a criminal law not civil, I really think it would have to end up in the High Court or maybe a High Court Judge sitting at a county court?

I really wish we had a lawyer here who could give concrete information and advice to Alexander and the rest of us on this. An injunction would be another great milestone in the fight against Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yes, what you say makes perfect sense as regards RIPA and criminal law, and you may be right on reflection.

i guess its just a frame of mind really, i see companies no matter their size or global footprint as just a bunch of paper in a companies house office.

and its really just the people in these companies that infact get together to plan and profit and admitedly sign big contracts to pay and build the services we pay for.

i see people not companies, and its people that are just like you and me and subject to the exact same rules and laws, they might forget that in their high office, i dont, but perhaps thats just me!.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I arent 100% sure that what I have said above is right and I remain open-minded. Maybe a county court would have the authority and jurisdiction to issue the injunction itself if convinced of the arguments or merits of the case. Its just my gut instinct is telling me otherwise.

All points with merit and I think its pretty clear by their actions (both those of Phorm and the ISPs) that they a) thought they could get away with this because people wouldnt notice and b) those in charge let the ££££ cloud their judgement regarding the legal ramifications of all this.

Phorm, BT, Virgin Media and Carephone Warehouse arent above the law and hopefully, one way or another, they will be brought to book for this.

Time for bed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The European Convention on Human Rights

Section 1 - ARTICLE 8

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

ARTICLE 13

Everyone whose rights and freedoms as set forth in this Convention are violated shall have an effective remedy before a national authority notwithstanding that the violation has been committed by persons acting in an official capacity.


I may be mistaken but (1) does not say "except his Internet correspondence" and I'm pretty sure Phorm do not qualify in the exceptions list (2).

http://www.europaworld.org/issue8/th...ight101100.htm

<...>and gives anyone residing in a Council of Europe member state an ultimate remedy if these fundamental rights are violated: appeal to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.<...>

They have covered issues such as: <...> secret surveillance of correspondence and telephone tapping; <...>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

However Phorm and/or VM are not a 'Public Authority' i.e. a national or local government or agent acting for them. The ECHR and the Human Rights Act are both concerned about ensuring that people are protected from undue interference by governments. They have little or anything to say about what private individuals or organisations can do.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't know. (1) is pretty un-ambiguous in my mind and (2) I read as a clarification of what circumstances allow interference in (1) not an invitation for anyone not specifically listed to interfere.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No, Jem's right. In point 2, you've missed out 4 words from your emphasis: "There shall be no interference by a public authority" - it's spelled out right there.

VM is a private company, so isn't covered by this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except <...>

Which I read as a clarification of where a "public authority" may interfere not that anybody who is not a public authority may interfere at will.

(and it still doesn't negate (1))

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry if I've missed on this

but has anyone posted a sticky note somewhere with the procedure you need to deploy to Opt-out of Phorm ?

I feel the need to do this asap

thanks

RJ

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One way at the moment would be to go to http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=out and accept the OPTED_OUT cookie... or if you use Firefox try the Dephormation add-on from http://www.dephormation.org.uk/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So will I. Perhaps someone could post a link to it in this forum as soon as it apears (if it appears...)

[edit] I've just realized that the first quote didn't appear, and my post might look like I'm saying "I'll sign up to Phorm as soon as it appears." NO!!!! :dunce:

I'm referring to Alexander Hanff's post regarding a second petition on the Prime Minister's website calling on him to take legal action against BT over the secret trials they conducted last year. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Over on the BT Technical Trials thread at BT http://beta.bt.com/bta/forums/thread...t=405&tstart=0
William Nagle points out that webwise.bt.com is hosted in the USA.

And indeed so it is...

SmartWhois:

webwise.bt.com (207.44.186.90)

207.44.128.0 - 207.44.255.255
ThePlanet.com Internet Services, Inc.
315 Capitol
Suite 205
Houston, TX
US

Technical Support
admins@theplanet.com
+1-214-782-7800

He also points out that the IP 207.44.186.90 has in the past appeared on an ad-tracking blocklist as phorm.com:207.44.186.90-207.44.186.90

So, what were those comments about all of the kit being physically located at the host ISP...