Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Except for the fact that Israel imposed a blockade on the Gaza Strip since 2007, with the entry of goods only allowed for basic needs and humanitarian relief…

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Was that before or after the rockets started shooting over towards Israel?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

US has no plans to recognise a Palestinian state

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

What’s that got to do with the original point of which you thought was

Israel immediately imposed a blockade when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip in 2007, so there was no opportunity to build hotels, farms, and factories…

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I'm sorry but Hugh's called this one right.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Nope. Nice fantasy but without substantial funds and reliable connections to the outside World like airports, they were on a hiding to nothing.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

How exactly ?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Have Hamas always been self funding then?

Didn't they have any friends anywhere nearby that would give them a helping hand and offer resources to get on with what they wanted to do?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

If you can't get building materials in due to a blockade, you can't build up the infrastructure and the region is condemned to poverty. Praying in aid to an earlier erroneous post does not win your point with Paul.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

"hey, you Hamas guys, now you've taken over in Gaza do you need cash and building materials? "

"Nah mate, but if you can chuck us some guns, bullets, and bombs we have a plan"

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

500km of concrete lined excavated tunnels, 5,700 shafts.

Would seem to be at odds with that point of view.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

If/when that’s independently verified you make a very valid point

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

No, it didnt, but of course no one actually expected you to answer it, as usual.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I think there was a network of tunnels before Hamas 'moved in', built by the previous regime to facilitate the ease of certain resources being imported.

I also think Hamas may have extensively added to that network.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

The Gazans clearly had funds, resources, manpower, etc after Israel vacated the Strip. The proof is: they managed to construct more mileage of tunnels compared to the London underground. They also developed and built rockets that they have been constantly firing.
BUT. as I said above, they could have used their energy and funds to create a tourist oasis - it would have been much less demanding (as the Americans say) - you do the math!

Credit to them for their hardwork it's a shame (for them) that they didn't channel it to something easier and more rewarding.

---------- Post added at 18:46 ---------- Previous post was at 18:40 ----------


---------- Post added at 18:51 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

I'm sure Liam and Noel, would corroborate.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

How would the tourists manage to get into Gaza with the Israel’s blockade in place?

I think these Israeli actions may have diminished any ability to create a "tourist paradise"…

https://web.archive.org/web/20181004...ticle27196.htm

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Why would there be a blockade if it was explicitly evidenced that the Gazans were willing to live in peace in their own state, side by side, and become a tourist economy.


It’s sort of the whole point of this particular arm of the discussion.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Whatever the motives of Israel, be they territorial or otherwise, preventing Gaza from developing a tourist economy has been the approach they've taken. A successful economy is not a good breeding ground for militants; a bad economy is.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I think you mean Hamas. An independent Gaza, evidently peaceful towards Israel, and recognising Israel as a legitimate Jewish state from the off, could have achieved anything they wanted.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I strongly suspect that, when Hamas took control of Gaza, Israel (and most of the western World) gave a little shudder and thought "shit, this won't end well"

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I imagine the World thought that.

---------- Post added at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 ----------

Wishful thinking as Hugh's telegram evidences. I appreciate that life is easier when we can label countries as goodies and baddies but the evidence doesn't support this.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Any elections held in Gaza will probably be the 'gun at the head' variety

or at best "if you vote for us you'll be given some dry bread and watery soup"

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Anyway, that’s enough about Israel’s intentions…

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I actually took it as that silly humour we all often subscribe to, he just forgot the smiley face on the end.

Apologies to Hugh if I got that wrong, but yes I had a silly giggle at it

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Yes they did, and Israel were entitled to strike back, and were largely supported in doing so.

However, they have since lost the plot, and gone completely off the rails, losing most of that support.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

If you actively believe the above then you’re more radicalised than the imaginary radicalised army you believe are invading the UK

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

No blinkers over my eyes at all. However, to return to topic Israel have as Paul said gone totally ott on their response. This is no longer anymore about removing Hamas , as members of the Israeli cabinet have said they want the Palestinians out of Gaza so they can have it for themselves

IMHO the Israeli governments intentions are now on par with the Nazis

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I doubt there's anyone on this Forum who doesn't want that to happen.

Given a choice of saving the lives of the innocent hostages or his position in power, Netanyahu has gone for the latter, ignoring the advices of the IDF and pleas from families of the hostages.

Hopefully they won't.

But if Israeli settlers are evicting Palestinians from their farms in the West Bank and Palestinians are dying in their thousands from malnutrition, bombing and gun fire in Gaza, you don't need to be a genius to understand why support for more radical parties like Hamas may be growing. You just need to be objective and not naively assume that one country is always in the right.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Not mine!

---------- Post added at 00:38 ---------- Previous post was at 00:35 ----------

The last paragraph seemed accurate

---------- Post added at 00:40 ---------- Previous post was at 00:38 ----------

Utter bollocks

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Of course, as the saying goes - "There's always one".

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

How so?

You and I both know there have been multiple politicians in Israeli governments who have stated they want Palestinians wiped out. Earlier this year a member of the israeli government stated that all adult Gaza men should be executed and that the Palestinians were sub human and no one wanted them.

Israel is on the verge of becoming a pariah state. They’ve proved that even with backing and significant military they can’t eradicate Hamas , they’ve little to zero care for civilian casualties, they’ve pushed pretty much the entire population into starvation by placing a stranglehold on aid getting into the country. iIRC less than 5% of farmable land is available for use.

This is now a war against Hamas in name only.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I’ll make it easy, Show me the industrialised slaughter of Palestinians.

Show me trains, buses, wagons of civilians being brought into holding camps and killed, and then tossed into mass graves after having all their valuables taken from them.

Show me Palestinians bring lined up on the edge of mass graves and being machine gunned, to fall on top of the previous line up that aren’t all already dead.


Israel is nothing like Nazi Germany, to suggest so is, I repeat, utter bollocks.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

So because the methods aren’t the same the intent isn’t ?

You know very well the stance of multiple members of the Israeli government past and present. Don’t try to suggest otherwise.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I don't believe there are now any hostages, just bodies (unless they've been shipped out to Iran or somewhere)

Hands up all those who think Israel stopping the fighting and allowing Gaza (Hamas) to rebuild will lead to peace and harmony between the two for a period of . . . hmm . . lets say 10 years

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Not good enough just to change the Government in Israel, Gaza also needs better than Hamas to make it work.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

What Carth said...

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Correct it’s not the same, not by a long long way,

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Agreed

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

https://honestreporting.com/the-star...vation-photos/

Yes, I remember when the Jews staged all those photos from Auschwitz ……………..

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

The solution to accurate reporting in Gaza is simple: Let journalists into Gaza, and when they're there, don't kill them.

https://news.sky.com/story/who-were-...-gaza-13409997

https://www.ft.com/content/1bd1e23c-...8-f740f7a28282

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Don’t be a HAMAS affiliate then, and maybe you won’t be killed.

https://honestreporting.com/gaza-jou...-the-evidence/

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Your blind loyalty to that Netanyahu-loving website is touching.

But you've failed to address the ban on allowing journalists into Gaza.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

So is yours to HAMAS apologist main stream media.

You show me a conflict were journalists have had had unfettered access to front line war.

Journalists have been allowed in Gaza under IDF escort, as is normal in front line war zones.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

War reporters can also be embedded elsewhere in a conflict. The reason they're allowed in 'under IDF escort' is because the IDF then controls what they see, where they go and who they talk to. They don't even like reporters recording over Gaza as they fly because of the devastation they've levelled upon it.

https://news.sky.com/story/israels-b...stand-13385627

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

We don't look to Hamas to enforce journalistic freedom. If Hamas are banning journalists from Gaza then we can condemn them too. Still, at the moment, it's Israel preventing access to the conflict so there cannot be independent reporting on what they're doing, rather than being dependent on IDF press releases.

Hamas are a brutal terrorist organisation. We're all agreed on that. It would be better for everyone involved if they were to disappear forever. That doesn't even give Israel carte blanche to kill tens of thousands of Palestinians, 18,000 of whom are children.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Freedom of information should not be derided as an obsession. It's what our values are built upon. Not only are we starved of news about Gaza but any remaining reporters there are being starved.

---------- Post added at 09:29 ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 ----------

Mainstream media is not Hamas apologist. That's a preposterous thing to say and you supply no evidence to back up the claim.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Starving hostages? Net's got you covered here too.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

No, but the lack of access allows Israel to obfuscate what is happening. We can post news, death figures from Gaza and Israel will deny it. News organisations ask for access so they can see, Israel says No.

Look at the story a few months ago where medics responding to a casualty were themselves killed. They denied it, not knowing someone had recorded it. Then it was a 'mistake'. https://news.sky.com/video/phone-foo...rkers-13342941

We get the truth when there is verification from independent sources.


Again, I don't care if Hamas should have thought it because I am not expecting much morality and concern for life from a terrorist organisation that targets innocent civilians at a music festival. Again, what Hamas did is not a justification for what Israel is doing now to innocent civilians.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

This is all getting to be the same as those strikes on the nuclear centrifuges.

One side says they're destroyed, the other side says pfft you didn't even scratch us.

Did we ever find out by independent 'boots on the ground' or did it just fade because better stories came along?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Yes reporters can be "embedded" but that does not give them unfettered access, and they will go were the unit they are embedded with go, and they will do exactly what the soldiers tell them to do, and if the soldiers tell them to stay where they are, they will stay where they are and they will see what the soldiers around them want them to see.

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 ----------

anybody that takes the word of the Hamas Ministry of Health as Gospel is treated with suspicion.

And you only have to listen to the many, many reports given by Jeremy Bowen to know which side he's on.

---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

That's a very naive view.

Reporters were embedded with UK and US troops and they were shown exactly what they needed to be shown and the UK and US control the narrative.

The difference is if you embedded reporters with the IDF, regardless, no one would believe the reporting unless it showed the cold blooded murder of Palestinians. Israel would be on a hiding to nothing, so why bother in the first place.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

The embedded reporters are those on the front-line reporting on that effort. It's not the entirety of reporting on war. For example, in the 2003 Iraq War, there were reporters embedded with front-line troops and reporters in Baghdad. In the Syrian Civil War, there were reporters based in Damascus.

There are still reporters in Kyiv and Moscow right now, even as Kyiv is being bombed.

The only difference is that none of these conflicts had one participant who could control access to the entire country/zone. Since Israel controls the Gaza Strip they do, and they're using this to limit any independent reporting of what is happening there.

Reporters embedded with the troops in Iraq were only getting roughly what the UK/US wanted to see. But they were actually embedded, not taken on guided tours, so their access was greater. I somehow doubt the IDF would let an independent journalist be with them all the time on the front line.

And as mentioned, reporters were elsewhere in Iraq.

Well, what can it hurt if there is not a lot of killing of innocent civilians? As mentioned with the medics who were killed Israel just denied it until there was actual video and they had to admit to 'a mistake'.

You call me naive, but you're defending a system where the only information that comes out of Gaza is controlled by the IDF. Might as well just repost IDF press releases on here instead of arguing about it.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Indeed, we're seeing more projection there than at your average Odeon on a Saturday night!
You may jest, but we've seen that with re-posting of stories from a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group and the criticism of objective sources based on their being 'mainstream'.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Whilst we're all focused on the starvation and bombings in Gaza, an Israeli Minister is focused on territorial expansion.

https://www.ft.com/content/7a2c37ae-...5-9f2a28321579

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Let’s face it though, if Hamas had the muscle they’d do exactly the same thing to Israel. It’s because Hamas believed they could bounce Iran and then others in the region into action that they went on the rampage on Oct.7 in the first place.

You do know what ‘from the River to the Sea’ means, don’t you?

A plague on both their houses.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

They would, but they're a terrorist organisation. We expect more of democratic governments, especially ones that are our allies.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Are they our allies? Those days might be over. Their PM is wanted by the the International Criminal court.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu
If he came to the UK he'd be arrested.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

This sounds like an argument against frying a wasp’s nest just because the wasp that stung you is only doing what you expect a wasp to do.

Hamas might be behaving as predicted but they don’t deserve any slack for it. I appreciate you were demanding high standards of Israel rather than apologising for low standards from Hamas, but if you set uneven expectations it ends up the same, whichever end of the see-saw you look at.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I am fine with frying the wasp nest, but this is bombing the neighbourhood where the wasp nest is located and everybody in it. I appreciate that there is collateral damage in war, especially when you have terrorists like Hamas who embed themselves in a civilian population, but this is now indiscriminate. Levelling entire population centres and limiting aid.

I don't think it does. I expect higher standards from the police than from criminals, I expect higher standards of Western-aligned governments than I do of terrorist groups.

I used to defend Israel by saying that if Hamas had all the power, they would destroy Israel, whereas if Israel had all the power, they would just want to live in peace. I feel pretty stupid about that now.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

No, you expect “less”, you expect Israel to capitulate to the terrorist organisation.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

The problem is, Damien, that if Hamas is not eliminated, this will never end. What would be your solution? Hamas is committed to destroying Israel and nothing is going to change that mindset.

The civilian casualty rate is higher than it needs to be because Hamas is using civilians as human shields, so you can blame Hamas for that!

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Just remind me how that’s worked for conflict against opponents as

Viet Cong
iRA
Taliban


Also, if you think every single woman and child was killed because they were being used as a human shield then you’re even more off your trolley with your responses than usual

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

cough cough

Not to mention the Irgun Zvai Leumi, and the Lohamey Heruth Israel (aka Stern Gang)

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Oh yes, I remember them, revered in Israel for cutting the balls off British soldiers and murdering civilians...

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

You mean like the words some have chosen to describe Palestinians ?

How deliciously ironic.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

He didn’t say that…

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Just ignore him, I do. 20 years ago he was probably calling our own ambassador anti semetic because he called for the cancellation of the pro irgun commemoration of The King David Hotel bombing, which Netanyahu attended incidentally and agreed with their stupid plaques that blamed the British for failing to evaluate the hotel and believed their claims of regret and dismay that 91 people were killed, 80 years on and their country's government is still parroting that line, only difference now is that instead of tens of people murdered its tens of thousands :(

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I think there’s a few on this thread they take the position of the quote attributed to Stalin “One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.”

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

History won't judge us kindly if we don't solve this humanitarian crisis.*

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-late...hamas-13415481

* Just to confirm, I condemn Hamas as terrorists and their 7 October 2023 attack on innocent citizens.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

The problem is that those of use who care about this crisis are in a minority

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Aid is going in, but not getting to the people that need it.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08...-along-routes/

How do you overcome this situation?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

They should do assuming they're alive. But that won't stop the famine.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

i think you're the only one that believes that

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Just a question, not a statement of my position on the subject. What is the real difference between Germanys actions in ww2 in Polands gettos , and Israelis in gaza?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Unless Hamas and Israel strike an agreement, releasing any remaining hostages won't stop the invasion or blocking of aid.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I’ll counter that with

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...id-2025-07-25/

And if what you say held a degree of merit , let’s not pretend for one second that there’s anywhere near enough aid getting into Gaza.

And if your response is ‘well Hamas would just steal it all’ then the Israelis haven’t really done as good a job of extinguishing the Hamas threat as they say they have. Or, maybe they were lying about that too….

---------- Post added at 19:47 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------

The Israeli government are just as evil as Hamas , they are two sides of the coin. More and more of the rest of the world are seeing this at a rapidly increasing pace.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Perhaps, but right now, I struggle to see any advantage for Hamas to keep the hostages, it obviously hasn’t deterred any Israeli military action, it gives Israel an ‘excuse’ for what is happening, I fail to see any good reason to keep them.

Hypothetically suppose that Hamas announce that they will release all of their surviving hostages, and the bodies of those who have died, tomorrow - unconditionally, we just need to know who to release them to and how, safely!

At a stroke it removes a major plank in Israel’s government's justification for pursuing the war. It does, however, create more pressure on Netanyahu to come to some sort of arrangement.

Now there is the obvious claim that this is simply not in his interest, that he needs this to continue to stay in power rather than face possible legal action against him. If the hostages were released and Israel does nothing to reciprocate, then this just reinforces this idea.

Following the Hamas attacks, Isreal had an enormous amount of of international sympathy and support - they have gone from that to a virtual pariah state, arguably because of one persons desire to cling to power.

Hypothetically, in the midst of the IRA’s bombing campaign against British civilian targets, we had retaliated by nuking Dublin to ‘wipe out the IRA commanders’ once and for all'? How would history have regarded that?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

If you have to ask that question, you are very ignorant. Do your research there is enough material out there.

---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:35 ----------

Invaision?

Also, Who is stealing and appropriating the aid………….it’s not Israel.

There’s plenty of aid being provided, evidently it’s not getting there. Perhaps ask the Gazan health ministry what the issue is, as all mainstream media sources seem to accept their word as gospel.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Mrmistoffeles has posted a reliable source that shows Hamas are not appropriating the aid. Maybe there'a a non-mainstream website out there that says aliens are stealing it?

Plenty of aid may be provided but as we know, Israel is not allowing enough of it into Gaza.