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-   -   Russia has invaded Ukraine (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33710768)

jfman 11-06-2022 20:06
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36124997)
A cheap shot unworthy of someone who styles themselves as an ideas man. Also, wilfully ignorant of the historical resources widely available to it. Our own country’s last existential struggle is still, just, within living memory. Perhaps you should spend some time considering that and thinking about Ukraine’s position on its own terms, instead of insisting on seeing everything through the lens of your seething hatred of America.
I fail to see how it's a cheap shot when it perfectly sums up the tone of your post.

As for the Ukraine's position on it's own terms I'm intrigued at how you claim I've dismissed it when you so enthusiastically encompass it exclusively (but unsurprisingly) within American imperialist rhetoric seeking unattainable and unrealistic objectives.

The lessons have not been learned of Iraq or Afghanistan, and we have the latest front line in the battle to reverse increasingly diminishing American (and by proxy British) relevance on a global stage.

I have considered the Ukrainian position and a conscript army funded by US dollars sacrificed to prevent even minimal westward expansion of Russia seems somewhat an undesirable outcome. Widows and children living perpetually as refugees in foreign lands is equally an undesirable outcome. There is no rationale to be absolutely uncompromising, in particular around the already disputed regions which they have denied self-determination to, unless it is being fought on American terms.

I don't have a seething hatred for America, however I simply will not sit here as a keyboard cheerleader as America bankroll another generation of another country fight itself out of existence without questioning what benefit - if any - there will be for them in the long run. This has been a proxy war from the start - hence the decision to separate men of fighting age from women and children with the latter bizarrely welcomed all around Europe despite a supposed migrant crisis.

OLD BOY 11-06-2022 20:45
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36125002)
You should have gone to Specsavers
Chris tried to drag me into it and as you would have seen if you could read I refused to engage

You see the bit where I clearly state that "I am leaving God out of my discussions on the forum"
Then why mention God in the first place? He has nothing to do with Putin’s deranged invasion of Ukraine and the murder and rape of its civilians. That’s down to free will, if I read correctly the usual religious apologies for the madness that carries on in this world.

As for whether God even exists and allows all this to happen, well that’s a different story and for another thread, which I will probably avoid like the plague.

Jaymoss 11-06-2022 20:52
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36125005)
Then why mention God in the first place? He has nothing to do with Putin’s deranged invasion of Ukraine and the murder and rape of its civilians. That’s down to free will, if I read correctly the usual religious apologies for the madness that carries on in this world.

As for whether God even exists and allows all this to happen, well that’s a different story and for another thread, which I will probably avoid like the plague.
Dude you have said more about God than I have. I was getting pushed into it by Chris to which I refused to engage. Nothing to see here

pretty sure you would not avoid it as from what I see you like to stir a turd here and there

OLD BOY 11-06-2022 20:59
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36125007)
Dude you have said more about God than I have. I was getting pushed into it by Chris to which I refused to engage. Nothing to see here

pretty sure you would not avoid it as from what I see you like to stir a turd here and there
Actually, you are the one who first mentioned God. Almost as if he was your secret weapon if anyone disagreed with you.

However, I’m sure that everyone on here will be pleased that you agree we should leave Him out of it.

Jaymoss 11-06-2022 21:00
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Yawn if I did it was just to say I was not gonna discuss it so get off my case

Damien 11-06-2022 21:05
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36125003)
I don't have a seething hatred for America, however I simply will not sit here as a keyboard cheerleader as America bankroll another generation of another country fight itself out of existence without questioning what benefit - if any - there will be for them in the long run. This has been a proxy war from the start - hence the decision to separate men of fighting age from women and children with the latter bizarrely welcomed all around Europe despite a supposed migrant crisis.
It's Ukraine's choice to fight. Their concern isn't that America is funding them but they're not funding them enough.

The ultimate conclusion of your argument is America should stop funding Ukraine so they're forced to surrender on Russian terms and you're trying to portray this as a position of concern.

Chris 11-06-2022 21:22
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36125012)
I saw your popcorn gif

alright for you seeing as you were the one trying to bring religion into it, Hope you enjoy the entertainment instead of stepping up and actually saying yes it was me. Who was it mention cowardice early? Of course I do not mean you are
Thanks … it wouldn’t show up on my browser, I thought it didn’t work. I’ve put it back now.

Incidentally - there’s a certain etiquette about replying to posts that were then deleted. I can also restore my reply to the post you made and removed earlier this afternoon if you like?

Jaymoss 11-06-2022 21:24
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36125014)
Thanks … it wouldn’t show up on my browser, I thought it didn’t work. I’ve put it back now.

Incidentally - there’s a certain etiquette about replying to posts that were then deleted. I can also restore my reply to the post you made and removed earlier this afternoon if you like?
I replied to it before I saw it was deleted as I guess yours was. I did not see the Gif and still can not I traced the url

Still do not see you fessing up.

I guess I will end up in trouble if this continues I guess I best shut up now

Paul 11-06-2022 21:30
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36125014)
Thanks … it wouldn’t show up on my browser, I thought it didn’t work. I’ve put it back now.
It doesnt show up for me either, so Ive removed it as the post just looks blank.

---------- Post added at 21:29 ---------- Previous post was at 21:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36125016)
I guess I will end up in trouble if this continues I guess I best shut up now
Good plan.

---------- Post added at 21:30 ---------- Previous post was at 21:29 ----------

I think its time this got back to the subject instead of pot shots and pointless arguments with each other.

1andrew1 16-06-2022 11:30
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
France taking a hard line position now! Maybe Macron's visit to Ukraine has persuaded him.

From Sophie Pedder, Paris Bureau Chief at The Economist.
Quote:
A French diplomatic source in Kyiv just now:´We are in favour of a total victory with the restoring of the territorial integrity of all territory conquered by Russia, including Crimea’.
https://twitter.com/PedderSophie/sta...36753480146945

Damien 17-06-2022 07:15
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
They say that when pressed or when they're worried they look too weak. Let's see how this translates to policy or if France and Germany are still lukewarm on their support for Ukraine's wish to keep the war going rather than come to an agreement.

Maggy 17-06-2022 08:57
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61829953

Ukraine War: Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov fact-checked

papa smurf 17-06-2022 09:11
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36125523)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61829953

Ukraine War: Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov fact-checked
Lavrov/Putin if their lips are moving they are lying.

Mick 17-06-2022 11:08
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
BREAKING: European Commission recommends Ukraine is given candidate status to join EU. - Adam Parsons, Sky News.

Sephiroth 17-06-2022 11:14
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36125533)
BREAKING: European Commission recommends Ukraine is given candidate status to join EU. - Adam Parsons, Sky News.
I wonder what quid-pro-quo was given by Ukraine. For example, agreeing to a negotiated settlement with Russia (if that's possible) and ceding territory - notwithstanding Macron's utterances.

Quote:
Macron's urging that a Ukrainian victory is necessary came after the French leader has faced a backlash in recent weeks for his rhetoric on the war and Russia. There were some mixed reactions to a speech he delivered Wednesday that urged negotiations between Zelensky and Russian President Vladimir Putin. Dmytro Kuleba, Ukraine's minister for foreign affairs, and some U.S. lawmakers also sharply criticized Macron earlier this month for saying in an interview that Russia should not be humiliated by the end of the war.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-mus...emarks-1716571

jfman 17-06-2022 23:55
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36125011)
It's Ukraine's choice to fight.
But not a choice for the men of fighting age being held hostage while their partners and children flee.

Quote:
Their concern isn't that America is funding them but they're not funding them enough.
Of course if America didn't fund them at all, the threshold for a ceasefire or peace agreement would move.

Quote:
The ultimate conclusion of your argument is America should stop funding Ukraine so they're forced to surrender on Russian terms and you're trying to portray this as a position of concern.
The ultimate conclusion of my argument is there will be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dead and permanently displaced Ukranians who fought further (and for longer) on the basis of Western promises that likely won't be fulfilled longer term.

Something as frivolous as US gasoline prices at the mid-terms for example could result in them being leaned on to make an agreement that was absolutely achievable 70 days ago.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'portraying' concern. My concern for Ukrainians is absolute - however war is rarely a zero sum game. While it might suit some armchair generals out there to watch this play out to apply what they see to hypothetical future combat scenarios that doesn't suit me in the slightest. It's not a price to pay in Ukrainian blood.

Damien 18-06-2022 09:15
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36125596)
But not a choice for the men of fighting age being held hostage while their partners and children flee.
A lot clearly want to fight but that's a war for you. The same happened here in the World Wars. You've faced with a threat to your existence as a nation.

Quote:
Of course if America didn't fund them at all, the threshold for a ceasefire or peace agreement would move.
Of course it would but with less favourable terms to Ukraine. Again, you want to deprive them the money need to defend themselves.


Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'portraying' concern. My concern for Ukrainians is absolute - however war is rarely a zero sum game. While it might suit some armchair generals out there to watch this play out to apply what they see to hypothetical future combat scenarios that doesn't suit me in the slightest. It's not a price to pay in Ukrainian blood.
You're ignoring what Ukraine wants. They want to keep fighting. They don't want to surrender their people and land to the Russians. If they want to come to terms then that's their right and if they want to keep fighting that's their right as well.

If someone invaded the UK would you want to concede parts of it so avoid deaths? It's pacifist nonsense.

Maggy 18-06-2022 09:54
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36125603)
A lot clearly want to fight but that's a war for you. The same happened here in the World Wars. You've faced with a threat to your existence as a nation.



Of course it would but with less favourable terms to Ukraine. Again, you want to deprive them the money need to defend themselves.




You're ignoring what Ukraine wants. They want to keep fighting. They don't want to surrender their people and land to the Russians. If they want to come to terms then that's their right and if they want to keep fighting that's their right as well.

If someone invaded the UK would you want to concede parts of it so avoid deaths? It's pacifist nonsense.
:tu:

Sephiroth 18-06-2022 10:09
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36125603)
A lot clearly want to fight but that's a war for you. The same happened here in the World Wars. You've faced with a threat to your existence as a nation.

Of course it would but with less favourable terms to Ukraine. Again, you want to deprive them the money need to defend themselves.




You're ignoring what Ukraine wants. They want to keep fighting. They don't want to surrender their people and land to the Russians. If they want to come to terms then that's their right and if they want to keep fighting that's their right as well.

If someone invaded the UK would you want to concede parts of it so avoid deaths? It's pacifist nonsense.
If only that emotive question could find a simple answer.

From the armchair, “we would fight them in the beaches, etc”. If you were the one being sent to the front line, leaving behind your dependent family, what would you choose to do? Preservation of life has more than one facet.

On balance, I think the UK people would elect on a majority basis to resist invasion - but unlike Ukraine, the feared event is a very long way from likely.

Jaymoss 18-06-2022 11:28
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
The thing is the UK population on the whole would not have any fight in them so many snowflakes would need a dark room to go lie down in, so yes I would want to concede parts to avoid deaths

jfman 18-06-2022 12:32
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36125607)
If only that emotive question could find a simple answer.
Precisely. Narrowing the scope to discussion of war to such emotive terms denies opportunity to consider reality or what a rational actor would consider a viable outcome.. The outcome of wars is rarely binary with a clear winner or loser. The political settlement afterwards needs to be sustainable to for peace to hold.

I don’t hold Damien’s optimism that many Ukrainian men would stay to fight over seek refuge with their families in Europe. Comparisons with the World Wars are simply invalid because there was simply nowhere to go.

Taf 20-06-2022 17:00
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Tensions are rising, but not in Ukraine.

Quote:
Is Lithuania on the verge of dragging NATO into Ukraine war? Moscow warns it will 'take actions' after alliance member blocks trains carrying goods to Russia's Kaliningrad territory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO1RlvTAE7k

papa smurf 20-06-2022 17:09
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 36125750)
Tensions are rising, but not in Ukraine.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO1RlvTAE7k
They'll have to send it by sea.

Chris 20-06-2022 17:32
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 36125750)
Tensions are rising, but not in Ukraine.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO1RlvTAE7k
Hard to see what “actions” Russia can take here. Obviously it’s not going to do anything military - even if it had the spare manpower and equipment it’s hardly going to move against a NATO member. It’s highly inconvenient for Russia but it can still access Kaliningrad by sea.

Hugh 20-06-2022 17:46
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 36125750)
Tensions are rising, but not in Ukraine.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO1RlvTAE7k
I mooted something similar on the 9th of March…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth View Post
Paul answered before you questioned




I also learnt in my 'early' years, that it can be really really stupid to have a fight against somebody with nothing to lose . . . which, with all the sanctions and things, is getting close to what Putin has . .
That’s Paul’s view, not necessarily NATO’s…

I think the crunch point will come if Putin tries to claim the Suwalki Corridor between Belarus and Kaliningrad* (the bit of Russia on the Baltic between Poland and Lithuania) - he has mentioned this aspiration previously, and if it happened, it would cut off Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia (by land travel) from the rest of Europe.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/03...alki-corridor/

The author of this recent article makes an interesting point about the Ukraine invasion, and why we shouldn’t take it for granted that this is the end-game.

Quote:
Obviously, seizing the Suwalki corridor would entail attacking Lithuania or Poland or both, leading directly to a war between NATO and Russia. This seems illogical or at best strategically unwise for Putin. However, the West’s ability to know and understand Putin’s logic and the rationale behind his decision-making has been obviously constrained by a lack of imagination, quality intelligence, or both.

For instance, some thought it was illogical for Putin to order the full-scale invasion of Ukraine if his objective was simply to keep it out of NATO. The simmering Donbass conflict had effectively achieved this since 2014, since one of the informal requirements for alliance membership is a lack of territorial disputes with neighbors.

Additionally, no authorities in Washington or Brussels were seriously pushing for Ukrainian membership in the alliance, and Russia’s diplomats and its intelligence services surely knew this. Moreover, Putin’s recent rhetoric of grievance against the West is nothing new—these are themes he has espoused for years. So, why invade now? The answer isn’t clear, aside from the conclusion that this war is about something more than just keeping Ukraine out of NATO.

For this reason, trying to discern Putin’s intent going forward is a fool’s errand. The West cannot assume it understands how Putin might react to the cratering of the Russian economy, whether his recent rants on pushing NATO out of Central and Eastern Europe amount to policy directives, or how he might exploit his new, practically colonial relationship with Belarus, which is now hosting tens of thousands of Russian troops.

By the same token, the West therefore cannot assume that Russia won’t make a move against the Suwalki corridor just because it appears illogical. In fact, during last year’s Zapad military exercise, Russian and Belarusian troops reportedly practiced closing the Suwalki corridor by attacking from Belarus in the direction of Kaliningrad.
* home to lots of Russian combat forces, including the Russian Baltic Fleet, advanced air defenses, and mobile nuclear-capable Iskander-M missiles

Chris 20-06-2022 18:53
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I think that piece of analysis has been superseded by the clownfest that was Russia’s attempt to take the whole of Ukraine. It is becoming clearer by the day it can’t even take the entire Donbas. Putin may wish to seize the Suwalki Corridor, but with whose army?

Hugh 20-06-2022 20:12
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36125770)
I think that piece of analysis has been superseded by the clownfest that was Russia’s attempt to take the whole of Ukraine. It is becoming clearer by the day it can’t even take the entire Donbas. Putin may wish to seize the Suwalki Corridor, but with whose army?
Agreed - the video quoted was from three weeks before the invasion…

ianch99 21-06-2022 09:29
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Well I found it funny :)

Quote:
A Russian tank pauses, head to the ground, to listen for the Ukrainian tractor, its natural predator.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVuuT3yU...jpg&name=small

1andrew1 21-06-2022 09:38
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 36125750)
Tensions are rising, but not in Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO1RlvTAE7k
The same kind of action they took when Finland and Sweden applied to join NATO ie none?

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36125752)
They'll have to send it by sea.
Apparently that's too expensive. Oh dear, never mind. :D

Mick 21-06-2022 12:59
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
1 Attachment(s)
Latest UK Intel, not done an update for a while:

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1655812721

Mick 27-06-2022 14:24
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
BREAKING: NATO to dramatically increase forces on high alert to over 300,000 from 40,000 amid Russia threat - Sky News.

https://news.sky.com/story/nato-to-s...hreat-12641191

Sephiroth 27-06-2022 14:55
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
My German source says that the EU (I suspect particularly Germany) is now buying oil from India, which has bought it from Russia and are now charging twice the price India paid!

1andrew1 27-06-2022 15:40
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36126353)
My German source says that the EU (I suspect particularly Germany) is now buying oil from India, which has bought it from Russia and are now charging twice the price India paid!
I suspect India could re-sell oil it's bought from the Middle East safe in the knowledge that it has plenty of cheaper oil from Russia to replace it.

I also see that Ukranian wheat is being taken on a large scale by Russia.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61790625

Mick 27-06-2022 15:40
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
BREAKING: Missiles hit shopping centre containing over 1,000 people in Ukrainian city of Kremenchuk, Zelenskyy says - Sky News https://news.sky.com/story/missiles-...-says-12641299

Hugh 27-06-2022 15:52
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36126353)
My German source says that the EU (I suspect particularly Germany) is now buying oil from India, which has bought it from Russia and are now charging twice the price India paid!
And the U.K., unfortunately…

https://www.theguardian.com/business...or-russian-oil

Quote:
Oleg Ustenko, the chief economic adviser to President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, is more forthright. He told the Guardian: “We call on countries everywhere to show solidarity with Ukraine by rejecting Russia’s blood oil. But let’s be clear, the British and EU energy, shipping and insurance companies who are helping Putin complete this pivot to new markets out of pure greed are complicit in his war crimes.

Mick 28-06-2022 09:55
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
1 Attachment(s)
Latest UK Intel:

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1656406485

Mick 29-06-2022 14:14
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
BREAKING: NATO leaders officially invite Finland and Sweden to become NATO members.

1andrew1 29-06-2022 14:15
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36126525)
BREAKING: NATO leaders officially invite Finland and Sweden to become NATO members.
Great news! Putin will now be an expert on the law of unintended consequences.

Mick 29-06-2022 14:19
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
BREAKING: NATO sends warning to Russia it will defend every inch of its territory.

https://news.sky.com/story/nato-vows...raine-12642490

pip08456 30-06-2022 08:27
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Britain is to commit 1,000 extra troops to Estonia (where there are already 2,000) and a carrier to the defence of NATO borders. The Defence Secretary said "we are going to allocate a brigade" and "dedicate one of the carrier groups to it".

Additionally, more Typhoon jets are expected to be deployed to Cyprus to focus on the Black Sea and the southern border of NATO. Plus, some equipment will also be sent to Estonia in advance so it is ready in the event of any potential Russian invasion.

https://twitter.com/geoallison/statu...08106628878336

Hugh 30-06-2022 10:10
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61987663

Quote:
Russia says its forces have withdrawn from Snake Island in the north-western Black Sea, which was captured at the start of the war

Moscow says it has done so as a "goodwill gesture" but Ukraine says its attacks forced Russian forces to retreat
"goodwill gesture" <snigger>

pip08456 30-06-2022 10:43
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36126576)
The fight over Snake Island reveals something that seems to be a pattern in this war. If the Russians can’t rely on overwhelming artillery firepower, they struggle accomplish anything. In any engagement requiring initiative and adaptability, the Ukrainians seem to prevail.

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/...42281717882880

Kyiv Independent also reports

Ukraine's Operational Command "South” reported on June 30 that Russian troops "hastily evacuated the remnants of its garrison" and “likely left the island” after they were attacked by Ukrainian forces overnight.

TheDaddy 30-06-2022 10:55
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36126578)
The fight over Snake Island reveals something that seems to be a pattern in this war. If the Russians can’t rely on overwhelming artillery firepower, they struggle accomplish anything. In any engagement requiring initiative and adaptability, the Ukrainians seem to prevail.

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/...42281717882880
Why do you think the Ukrainians keep asking for artillery more than anything else? Been saying a while now that the lack of information compared to the early months of the war isn't because people are bored it's because Ukraine is no longer winning and it's forces are suffering every bit as much as Russia's now

pip08456 30-06-2022 11:19
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36126579)
Why do you think the Ukrainians keep asking for artillery more than anything else? Been saying a while now that the lack of information compared to the early months of the war isn't because people are bored it's because Ukraine is no longer winning and it's forces are suffering every bit as much as Russia's now
Russia seems to have a different reason for the withdrawal.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...8&d=1656584217

1andrew1 30-06-2022 12:42
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I think Russia is making a virtue out of a necessity.

Paul 30-06-2022 13:40
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Since when did Russia start making "goodwill" gestures :confused:

Still - heres and idea for one they could make - pull out of Ukraine. :dozey:

1andrew1 30-06-2022 15:26
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36126592)
Since when did Russia start making "goodwill" gestures :confused:

Still - heres and idea for one they could make - pull out of Ukraine. :dozey:
:clap::clap::clap:

pip08456 08-07-2022 19:51
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Lavrov leaves G20 summit due to boycott, - Der Spiegel.

The foreign ministers of the G20 countries at the Indonesian summit decided to ignore Lavrov. First, the diplomats refused to take a photo with him, and then the ministers of the G7 countries missed the official dinner.

https://twitter.com/Flash43191300/st...16656808853504

Mick 11-07-2022 21:46
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
BREAKING: The White House said it believes Russia is turning to Iran to provide it with “hundreds” of unmanned aerial vehicles, including weapons-capable drones, for use in its ongoing invasion of Ukraine. - Associated Press.

Mick 12-07-2022 11:21
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
BREAKING: Russian President Vladimir Putin will visit Iran next week to attend a trilateral meeting with the leaders of Iran and Turkey.

Putin’s planned trip comes amid U.S. concerns that Teheran may provide Moscow with drones for its war on Ukraine. His visit will follow U.S. President Joe Biden’s trip to Israel and Saudi Arabia this week for discussions on Iran’s nuclear ambitions. - Associated Press.

Pierre 13-07-2022 16:29
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36128051)
BREAKING: Russian President Vladimir Putin will visit Iran next week to attend a trilateral meeting with the leaders of Iran and Turkey.

Putin’s planned trip comes amid U.S. concerns that Teheran may provide Moscow with drones for its war on Ukraine. His visit will follow U.S. President Joe Biden’s trip to Israel and Saudi Arabia this week for discussions on Iran’s nuclear ambitions. - Associated Press.
We're sleepwalking into a wider conflict here. NATO supporting and arming Ukraine. Iran, China supporting/ financing Russia.

5 months into the war, with no sign of it ending. This will carry on, possibly, well into next year, maybe beyond that.

jfman 13-07-2022 16:31
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I don’t think NATO are sleepwalking this proxy war is by design although they’d never be open with the public about it. Agree 100% on the rest of your post tho.

pip08456 13-07-2022 18:48
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36128182)
We're sleepwalking into a wider conflict here. NATO supporting and arming Ukraine. Iran, China supporting/ financing Russia.

5 months into the war, with no sign of it ending. This will carry on, possibly, well into next year, maybe beyond that.
There's no sleepwalking happening. Arming Ukraine to win can only happen when Ukrainian troops have been trained to use the weapons they are being supplied with.
Up to 10,000 Ukrainian troops will be trained in the UK on different weaponry and basic training, I should imagine the number in the US is far higher. Other NATO Country's are likely playing their part too.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/firs...-for-training/

Damien 13-07-2022 19:17
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I can't see it extended beyond Ukraine. I also can't see what is it in for China to fund Russia's war when Russia's resources become strained.

---------- Post added at 19:17 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36128183)
I don’t think NATO are sleepwalking this proxy war is by design although they’d never be open with the public about it. Agree 100% on the rest of your post tho.
All Russia need to do to stop this is not invade another country. We're not marching into Russia when this is done. This could all be over if they stopped.

TheDaddy 13-07-2022 19:31
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36128195)
There's no sleepwalking happening. Arming Ukraine to win can only happen when Ukrainian troops have been trained to use the weapons they are being supplied with.
Up to 10,000 Ukrainian troops will be trained in the UK on different weaponry and basic training, I should imagine the number in the US is far higher. Other NATO Country's are likely playing their part too.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/firs...-for-training/
Lets be honest, they stopped them advancing with their own weapons when the west gave them three days max before being overwhelmed, now they've turned it into one of those horrific wars of attrition with the average to low grade weaponary we've supplied, they quite possibly will win when they are given hi grade weapons, bit of a race against time though to get them trained before the Russian terror tactics start working on the population, bomb shopping centres, schools, power plants well out of the way of fighting in the hope enough of the population demand the war stops, it worked in Syria

---------- Post added at 19:31 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36128201)
I can't see it extended beyond Ukraine. I also can't see what is it in for China to fund Russia's war when Russia's resources become strained.
While the world's gaze is away they are up to all sorts, hoovering up all the fish in the pacific, creating islands and claiming territory, not to mention they're seeing if the wests hearts in it, if we can't handle rising energy prices how will we support a war to defend Taiwan

pip08456 13-07-2022 20:12
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36128205)
Lets be honest, they stopped them advancing with their own weapons when the west gave them three days max before being overwhelmed, now they've turned it into one of those horrific wars of attrition with the average to low grade weaponary we've supplied, they quite possibly will win when they are given hi grade weapons, bit of a race against time though to get them trained before the Russian terror tactics start working on the population, bomb shopping centres, schools, power plants well out of the way of fighting in the hope enough of the population demand the war stops, it worked in Syria

---------- Post added at 19:31 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------



While the world's gaze is away they are up to all sorts, hoovering up all the fish in the pacific, creating islands and claiming territory, not to mention they're seeing if the wests hearts in it, if we can't handle rising energy prices how will we support a war to defend Taiwan
Well the US trained HIMARS crews are doing well so far (9 systems) and the crews for the rest are being trained ready for delivery. Don't underestimate what has already been done.

Chris 13-07-2022 20:30
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36128210)
Well the US trained HIMARS crews are doing well so far (9 systems) and the crews for the rest are being trained ready for delivery. Don't underestimate what has already been done.
20 significant, high-value targets destroyed so far (big supply depots mostly), all well behind Russian lines. The Russian war machine depends entirely on the ability to flatten towns and cities with artillery so there’s literally nothing left to defend. But if they’re deprived of artillery shells, they’re stuffed. And some of the explosions you can easily find on YouTube or Twatter represent a *lot* of artillery shells.

Pierre 13-07-2022 22:32
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36128201)
I can't see it extended beyond Ukraine. I also can't see what is it in for China to fund Russia's war when Russia's resources become strained.
Russia is the worlds second biggest supplier of energy. Their resources will not be strained…….as long as they have customers.

China will just dictate terms to Russia, they’ll purchase energy in Renminbi, not dollars or Roubles. They’ll strengthen their currency.

Western economies are under pressure, especially with COVID, Russia and Net Zero. You have pick which battle you want to fight. Never fight a war on two fronts.

Battle Putin, or battle climate change. We need to park Net-Zero, bring power stations back online. Make fuel affordable get the western economies moving, supply chains moving.

We can worry about the debatable issues Climate Change presents later, we need to sort Russia first.

pip08456 15-07-2022 14:51
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Reznikov confident Ukraine will receive more HIMARS, including 300 kilometers-range version.

"We give them (the U.S.) proof that we can use it with precision and sophistication and we get more, and longer range,” Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov told the Financial Times.
Possibility Ukraine is about to commence offensive operations.

Source Kyiv Independant.

Damien 19-07-2022 07:51
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://twitter.com/larisamlbrown/st...79577884790784.

Quote:
Excl: Ukraine is preparing to destroy the Russian navy’s Black Sea fleet with western weapons and take back Crimea, Kyiv’s deputy defence minister tells @thetimes

Jaymoss 19-07-2022 08:22
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
How is it tactical to tell the enemy what you are about to do? blatant propaganda. It is like a boxer telegraphing a punch

1andrew1 19-07-2022 08:27
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36128749)
How is it tactical to tell the enemy what you are about to do? blatant propaganda. It is like a boxer telegraphing a punch
Morale is very important hence statements like this.

Jaymoss 19-07-2022 08:42
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36128750)
Morale is very important hence statements like this.
"Hey Mr Russians I need to cheer our men up so I am going to broadcast our plans. Please ignore"

1andrew1 19-07-2022 08:56
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36128752)
"Hey Mr Russians I need to cheer our men up so I am going to broadcast our plans. Please ignore"
Nope, more about demoralising the Russians.

As a Russian, why sign up with that as a prospect? Shows it's not going to be a temporary special operation where you can make some easy money but a long-term commitment.

Jaymoss 19-07-2022 09:21
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36128753)
Nope, more about demoralising the Russians.

As a Russian, why sign up with that as a prospect? Shows it's not going to be a temporary special operation where you can make some easy money but a long-term commitment.
Dunno why you are arguing with me cuz like I originally said PROPAGANDA

1andrew1 19-07-2022 09:46
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36128756)
Dunno why you are arguing with me cuz like I originally said PROPAGANDA
This is a discussion forum and we're discussing a topic. :)

Stating propaganda in one sentence doesn't mean that I have to agree with all your subsequent posts.

Jaymoss 19-07-2022 09:55
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36128758)
This is a discussion forum and we're discussing a topic. :)

Stating propaganda in one sentence doesn't mean that I have to agree with all your subsequent posts.
But the point is you are agreeing with me you are just arguing semantics and mansplaining the point I had already made by just using one word

I just realised you actually thought I thought they were really giving away their plans. Awww bless

tweetiepooh 19-07-2022 10:23
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
If you want to clear an area of enemy ships so you can get through you could tell them that you now have the weapons to reach them in that area. Doesn't really matter if you can't and long as you can make them think you can. Of course is does help if you can do at least some damage in case they need a bit of encouragement.

pip08456 19-07-2022 10:24
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
It looks like the bottom of the barrel is being scraped.

Quote:
Desperate to reinforce its battered forces in Ukraine, the Kremlin is raising scores of volunteer battalions—and plans to rush them to the front after just 30 days of training.

A month isn’t enough to train an individual recruit in a soldier’s individual tasks—to say nothing of training the battalion as a whole to fight and survive against battle-hardened Ukrainian formations.

“This drive will likely produce ‘soldiers’ of lower quality than the normal conscripts,” the Washington, D.C.-based Institute for the Study of War explained.
Cannon fodder comes to mind.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=2f0e6bb9701b

Mick 25-07-2022 12:29
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
BREAKING: Next year's Eurovision Song Contest will be held in the UK, on behalf of Ukraine, the BBC has confirmed.

1andrew1 25-07-2022 12:46
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36129427)
BREAKING: Next year's Eurovision Song Contest will be held in the UK, on behalf of Ukraine, the BBC has confirmed.
Hopefully, the UK wins it and we can let Ukraine hold it on our behalf in 2024.

mrmistoffelees 25-07-2022 13:25
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
It should be Ukrainian presenters imho

Paul 25-07-2022 17:17
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I dont really care who presents it or where - its a total sham anyway.
The "voting" has been politically based for decades, and Ukraine only won because of the invasion.

ianch99 25-07-2022 17:58
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36129463)
I dont really care who presents it or where - its a total sham anyway.
The "voting" has been politically based for decades, and Ukraine only won because of the invasion.
Of course it is, that's the point. It is just a chance to have fun .. normally at the UK's expense!

pip08456 26-07-2022 22:20
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
At least we can enjoy this at Irelands expense.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/07/2...box=1658836315

Hugh 29-07-2022 10:39
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Interesting article about the effects of sanctions on Russia.

https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/spe...-hit-sanctions

Quote:
Yale study shows Russian economy has been crippled by business retreats and sanctions

Almost six months on from Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, some Western commentators continue to argue that opposition to Putin has cost the united front dearly, while proving less damaging to the ‘resilient’ Russian economy.

However, new research from the Yale School of Management, more specifically from the team responsible for the widely used list of companies leaving Russia (or staying active in the country), proves that the aforementioned narrative is untrue – rather, a reflection of widely held but factually incorrect misunderstandings over how the Russian economy is actually holding up amid international sanctions and the exodus of more than 1,000 global companies.

The authors of the Yale report state that these misunderstandings are perpetuated by the Kremlin’s economic releases, which have become increasingly rose-tinted and propagandic. They add that Vladimir Putin-selected statistics are then picked up by many “well meaning but careless experts” who create economic assessments that are unrealistically favourable to the Kremlin.

Yale’s recent release, by contrast, brings together a large team of experts that use Russian language and unconventional data sources – such as high-frequency consumer data, cross-channel checks, releases from Russia’s international trade partners and data mining of complex shipping data – to provide a highly comprehensive and authoritative take on the state of the Russian economy. The picture they find is bleak.
tl:dr - Russian domestic financial markets, as an indicator of both present conditions and future outlook, are the worst performing markets in the entire world in 2022 despite strict capital controls - Yale concludes that, on its current trajectory, Russia is heading for economic oblivion.

pip08456 04-08-2022 16:59
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
This discussion on Russian TV is priceless especially the last comment.

https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/st...87252401160192

pip08456 29-08-2022 16:18
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
1 Attachment(s)
Ukraine starts ground offensive on Kherson front.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1661784705

1andrew1 01-09-2022 12:31
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Lukoil chair Ravil Maganov dies after fall from hospital window, Russian media report

Oil producer was one of few companies to criticise war in Ukraine

The chair of oil major Lukoil, one of the few Russian companies to criticise the war in Ukraine, has died after a falling out of a hospital window in Moscow, according to Russian media.

Ravil Maganov, one of the longest-serving executives at Russia’s second-largest oil producer, died six months after the company’s board released a statement calling for a speedy end to the conflict.

Russian state media, citing anonymous law enforcement sources, said Maganov’s death was being treated as suicide. Mash, a media outlet with close ties to Russia’s police, said Maganov was being treated for heart problems and had also recently been diagnosed with depression.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www....2-4136b4a4cd5b

papa smurf 01-09-2022 13:06
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Russian state media, citing anonymous law enforcement sources, said Maganov’s death was being treated as suicide. Mash, a media outlet with close ties to Russia’s police, said Maganov was being treated for heart problems and had also recently been diagnosed with depression.

A rough translation of that is [he was murdered].

daveeb 01-09-2022 15:58
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Opening an above ground floor window seems to be quite a high risk occupation in Russia, especially if your political views don't sit well with the authorities.

Sephiroth 01-09-2022 19:37
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36129579)
At least we can enjoy this at Irelands expense.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2022/07/2...box=1658836315
Can't we also enjoy something at France's expense?

pip08456 01-09-2022 21:01
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36132975)
Can't we also enjoy something at France's expense?
I'm sure something will come along in the future.

Mick 06-09-2022 12:58
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
BREAKING: China to start paying for Russian gas deliveries in yuan, rubles instead of US dollars: Gazprom - AFP News Agency

pip08456 08-09-2022 22:45
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Somebody's telling porkies.

Quote:
In a later video, Zelensky said the Armed Forces have liberated over 1,000 square kilometers of Ukrainian land since Sept. 1. The figure includes territories in both Kharkiv and Kherson oblasts.

Meanwhile, the Kremlin claims that its war against Ukraine is going as initially planned, with Russian President Vladimir Putin saying on Sept. 7 that “(Russia) has not lost anything and will not lose anything.”
https://kyivindependent.com/national...kharkiv-oblast

Jaymoss 08-09-2022 22:52
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36133798)
Most likely both of them

Hugh 09-09-2022 00:08
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36133799)
Most likely both of them
Sometimes being a "devil’s advocate’" is indistinguishable from being an "asshole"…

ymmv

Ukraine’s assertions are confirmed by independent sources - Russia’s aren’t .

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...nt-september-7

There’s the difference…

Paul 09-09-2022 02:16
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Well I suppose technically they have not lost anything compared to the start of the war, since none of it was theirs then ...

Hugh 09-09-2022 15:18
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://twitter.com/ozkaterji/status...JyoELBcJZcOmag

Quote:
@OzKaterji

From ‘the second best army in the world’ to the second best army in Ukraine
:D

Jaymoss 09-09-2022 15:31
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36133800)
Sometimes being a "devil’s advocate’" is indistinguishable from being an "asshole"…

ymmv

Ukraine’s assertions are confirmed by independent sources - Russia’s aren’t .

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...nt-september-7

There’s the difference…
There is being seen as a asshole because said person does not blindly believe a propaganda machine and there are those who are just assholes Hugh

The majority of the worlds governments are against Russia so it is not hard to believe we are being manipulated in following the narrative. I see nothing in your link that proves to me I can trust them the same as I can not trust news coming out of Russia.

Maybe if I was to say Baaaaa you would understand

TheDaddy 09-09-2022 16:27
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36133840)
There is being seen as a asshole because said person does not blindly believe a propaganda machine and there are those who are just assholes Hugh

The majority of the worlds governments are against Russia so it is not hard to believe we are being manipulated in following the narrative. I see nothing in your link that proves to me I can trust them the same as I can not trust news coming out of Russia.

Maybe if I was to say Baaaaa you would understand
Big difference between propaganda and a multi nation conspiracy to hide the truth from their citizens, bit insulting to journalists here actually imo

Jaymoss 09-09-2022 16:37
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36133841)
Big difference between propaganda and a multi nation conspiracy to hide the truth from their citizens, bit insulting to journalists here actually imo
I do not understand what point you are making here?

Only a naive person would think we are not being lied to by those in power on a daily basis

Damien 09-09-2022 16:48
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36133842)
I do not understand what point you are making here?

Only a naive person would think we are not being lied to by those in power on a daily basis
If you don't believe anything then what value is there in following or commenting on this story? There is no factual basis to start a discussion.

Hugh 09-09-2022 16:57
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36133840)
There is being seen as a asshole because said person does not blindly believe a propaganda machine and there are those who are just assholes Hugh

The majority of the worlds governments are against Russia so it is not hard to believe we are being manipulated in following the narrative. I see nothing in your link that proves to me I can trust them the same as I can not trust news coming out of Russia.

Maybe if I was to say Baaaaa you would understand
It’s not a Government organisation…

Quote:
Our Mission

The Institute for the Study of War advances an informed understanding of military affairs through reliable research, trusted analysis, and innovative education. We are committed to improving the nation’s ability to execute military operations and respond to emerging threats in order to achieve U.S. strategic objectives. ISW is a non-partisan, non-profit, public policy research organization.
The Ukraine War is also being reported by multiple other OSINT (Open Source Intelligence) source, none of which are Governmental.

https://www.echosec.net/weeklybullet...-post-invasion

https://www.technology.org/2022/08/3...ilitary-bases/

There’s cynicism and there’s bloody-minded blindness to reality…

Jaymoss 09-09-2022 16:57
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36133843)
If you don't believe anything then what value is there in following or commenting on this story? There is no factual basis to start a discussion.
Cuz I want to. Is that ok with you :)

Jaymoss 09-09-2022 17:01
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36133844)
It’s not a Government organisation…



The Ukraine War is also being reported by multiple other OSINT (Open Source Intelligence) source, none of which are Governmental.

https://www.echosec.net/weeklybullet...-post-invasion

https://www.technology.org/2022/08/3...ilitary-bases/

There’s cynicism and there’s bloody-minded blindness to reality…
I find it really amusing that educated intelligent people do not appear to understand how propaganda works. I see the news this thread and the like and get a general idea but maintain an agnostic view on it because I am not there and do not trust anyone

Hugh 09-09-2022 18:04
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Mate, I was actively involved in Intelligence Collection and Analysis when I was in the RAF, working with GCHQ, NSA, and the US Armed Forces - I know how SIGINT/OSINT works, and how propaganda works.

Mistrusting everything isn’t maintaining an agnostic view - it’s blinding yourself to any truthful information, by treating everything as false; research, collect, analyse, verify - the basics of fact-finding…

Maggy 10-09-2022 10:04
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
OKAY,back on topic everyone.

Jaymoss 10-09-2022 10:05
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133885)
I presume that was Ukrainian. Good one.

I remember from an episode of Sharpe when he was called the exact opposite, an “edel Mensch”.

On which note, Ukraine seems to be recapturing ground and Russia has gone all quiet.
I think full scale invasions of any moderate sized country has proven difficult since the end of WWII. When you consider the failures in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan twice. The only real exception that comes to mind is Iraq and I guess that was not that big and had a lot going on against it on the inside with it being a factional country

pip08456 10-09-2022 11:10
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
This is as close to confirmation of the Ukrainian advances as you'll get from Russia.

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/s...10989149605888


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