Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sounds more like Nationalism than patriotism - Papa must have used you to calibrate his radar… ;)

I think this sums it up….

Nationalism is a zero-sum game, where the only way to feel better is to show that others are worse, whereas Patriotism is being proud of your country whilst acknowledging it’s successes and it’s faults, and understanding that other countries feel the same way.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I've been giving some thought to the issues of trades and border control (retired, too much time on my hands, you know the story)

Anyway, what we need to do is get rid of all the incompetent nut jobs in Whitehall and put it into the hands of the real experts, the ones who seem to have little or no problem at all getting drugs, guns and people from one country to another :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's kind of like virtual signalling then on a countrywide scale

I thought you were going to come out with the uber capitalist mantra of privatisation where the only ones they're interested in saving money for or earning it for are themselves but I like this idea, poachers make the best game keepers, it'll tackle the crime rate at the same time

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Says something when you have to look up the definition of patriotism on the internet:dozey:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Says something when you think that’s what I did…. :dozey:

I looked up a suitable example to contrast nationalism and patriotism for others (as some people seem to confuse/conflate the two), and then put my own interpretation at the beginning and the end of the post.

I’m not the one accusing others of being less than patriotic just because they don’t agree with me…

---------- Post added at 19:32 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

V.amusing you accusing someone of binary thinking…

Oh, the strong, hard magnetic silvery-grey metal, atomic number 26y :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

To my mind, leaving the EU was simply in our best interests. Nothing to do with patriotism or nationalism.

However, what is clear to us all by now is that the people who constantly side with the EU rather than the UK are certainly not patriots - they are wreckers. They want to see this country come to harm, and simply because that will give them a better platform to diss the government come the next election with the hope that will bring Labour back to power.

That, I’m afraid, is the enormity of the desperation they face post-Corbyn.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Bozo and his chums don't need any help wrecking anything, it's about the only thing they're any good at, that and cheating on partners, filling their and their chums/ donors boots with public money, being racist can't believe Jacob Rees Smugg earlier warning of the yellow peril and if the opposition were up to anything they'd be all over it but Sir Kier would rather self isolate that tackle this stuff, still we get the politicians we deserve

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So, I wonder how long the poorly thought out 'sign anything to help us leave' policy of our Government will continue to throw up (expensive) reminders that you should always read and understand what you're signing.

Car repair bills could rise under new EU rules.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This despite the opening paragraphs of the article basically stating the opposite. Indeed, one should read things carefully. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So from the second paragraph you selected to quote it looks like the default position is the rules apply hence the lack of outright denial. The CMA and public consultation are just smoke and mirrors. I'm sure you knew that though having read it so carefully ;).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, I don't - you are making, in my opinion, nationalist statements (attacking other countries), but I am not stating you are not patriotic.

You say You apparently have me confused with BoJo, Lord Frost, and the rest of the Tory Party who rushed through this farrago and caused these difficulties... :erm:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nice try, but no. I’m aware that the default position is that the rules change. The point is that there is no obligation for them to change, which is very much the angle the report wants to take. Because there is no obligation, regardless of the default position, it will be entirely down to the British government if they do change; it will not be the EU’s fault and it will not be an unforeseen consequence of Brexit.

Governments do indeed often use “consultation” as a fig leaf - that is besides the point in this case.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Brexit means Brexit? :confused:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1889502.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes, it does. But you cannot change history (statue deniers take note).

If an EU grant was given and the condition is that an EU symbol or flag should acknowledge it, then we fly the flag.

It’s no different from Boris wanting UK funded schemes in Scotland acknowledged. Except, of course, that the EU was using our contribution to the EU to fund their grants to us!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Giving the full story isn’t "changing history" - history deniers take note_… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It is history if the grant money was given previously. I assume the grants were approved while we were still in the EU.

I didn’t read the whole article because that blasted advert made a hell of a noise and I couldn’t turn it off!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

from the article . .

No idea how much all this 'EU flag' stuff will cost to implement, seems yet another waste of money to me . . . though I should be used to it by now :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Thank you for that, Carth. As I thought, the grant is possible through our previous EU membership. That’s why I uttered the word ‘history’.

I’m sure Hugh knew that, though! :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Stop the bus. Brexit benefit finally found!
https://www.ft.com/content/c63a1c21-...e-cf3ab98d6463

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The ‘history’ I was referring to was your comment about statues… :erm:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm not sure what a statue denier is, is that a reference to BoJo ignoring legislation he's signed up to? :confused:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's a statute-denier

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I thought that was those groups who want to remove 3s likenesses of old colonial types and such.
--
Ah sorry, those are STATUE deniers not STATUTE deniers.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Looks like BoJo needs to severely improve relations with the EU or Farage will be breathing down his neck about migrants! Don't forget, due to Brexit, the UK is no longer part of the EU's Dublin Agreement so can no longer repatriate migrants to the first safe country they arrive in.
https://www.ft.com/content/4de3b1bc-...6-3f7fc5c43dba

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The answer is simple . . . intercept the boats before they reach our waters, and tow them back to France.

They might also then come into contact with the French navy towing the buggers our way too :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

put them on the Eurostar and send them back.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I guess once you get a taste for rejecting international agreements you don't like, you can't stop. The 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees would have an 'optional' feel for some.

What should we do next? I would like us to reject the 1967 Space Treaty and take the Moon in the name of the Queen.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The British electorate voted to lose this right in 2016 so we can no longer do this.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Simple answer 1a (which is almost identical to the previous simple answer)

Stop them arriving :D


Anyway, why do they think they'll be safe here . . .

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Post #1734 links to the treaty which we signed which means we can't do this.

If they're fleeing persecution, then there's less chance of this happening in the UK than in an unstable country like Syria or Afghanistan.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

. . . or Germany/France/Italy/Spain

Unless you think they're unstable countries too :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If they're EU citizens from those countries then they would enter through the usual channels rather than risk their lives in small boats at sea.
They're likely non-EU citizens who've come via those countries.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You (unsurprisingly) didn't answer the question regarding Germany, France, Italy, Spain being considered unstable countries.

No rush, take your time :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think they're not drastically different from the UK although Italy's political structure makes it perhaps the weaker of the pack and Germany's makes it the stronger. All have their issues from time to time, as does the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Right OK, so they're fundamentally the same as the UK, and therefore stable enough to be a safe haven for the migrants previously discussed.

I wonder why said migrants come skipping through to reach the UK then?

Could it be because, now we've left the EU, they consider us to be the best bet in a political and economical sense, with much better future prospects long term?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I read somewhere that it's because the french treat them like they are sub human,and make it known they are not welcome.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Most migrants don't end up in the UK. Those that do come here do so for a variety of reasons including existing communities and language.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Explaining the situation is not condoning or condemning one side or the other.
In this instance, I'm pointing out the squeeze that BoJo is in - the only realistic solution to this type of migration is better relationships with the EU member states. This is an approach he's not taking at the moment due to his desire to engage in perfidious behaviour around the Withdrawal Agreement.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not this utter utter drivel again, well established fact that both Germany & France take in more than we do.

I expected better from you Sephi

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe a nicely worded letter from Boris to that nice Mr Macaroni in France isn't such a bad idea.

Something along the lines of mentioning our good relationships over the years - well apart from a few hiccups in the middle ages - and helpfully pointing out that WW2 ended quite a while ago, and there really is no need to recreate the Dunkirk evacuations using rubber dinghy's and migrants. Oh and while we're at it, your cheese stinks

That should do it :D


Actually, it may be better if that Pretty Pratty woman sent it ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Knowing bozo he'll tell them we'll recreate Mers el Kebir...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In your explanation are you asserting they cannot be returned to France because under the Dublin agreement France would be the first safe country they arrived in and we are no longer part of that agreement.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My understanding is that the following ended with Brexit
"The Dublin III Regulation enabled the UK to return some asylum seekers to EU Member States without considering their asylum claims."
Per: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...ings/cbp-9031/

---------- Post added at 20:55 ---------- Previous post was at 20:51 ----------

It sounds like you're agreeing with me. In essence, Farage has got BoJo where the opposition is currently unable to get him - by the short and curlies.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As predicted, the EU is not at all keen to poison the UK-EU trade deal, now it’s becoming clear that HMG isn’t going to implement it as written or back down in the face of legal threats.

It has used the UK’s latest proposals as an excuse to “pause” the legal proceedings it commenced in March. It is now creating diplomatic wriggle-room for itself, indicating it is prepared to consider solutions that respect the “principle” of the deal, even while it loudly protests that it won’t renegotiate. Of course, a renegotiation was never really necessary, had the EU been prepared to countenance a measure of trust, good faith and common sense, instead of trying to use the blood of every victim of the Troubles to force the UK to capitulate.

I suspect the EU Commission has been instructed to wind its corporate neck in by one or more well-placed sources inside some of the principal member state governments. And I predict that once heads have cooled, we might be surprised just how much the EU decides actually remains within the spirit of good relations upon which the legal text is predicated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57986307

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Someone had to act like a responsible adult here and that was unlikely to be BoJo.

Maybe the EU felt sory for us? Since December 2019, the UK's economy has contracted by 11.3% with a budget deficit of 14.3% whilst the Eurozone economy has contracted by 6.9% with a deficit spending of 7.2%. The UK has by far the lowest growth rate of the G7.
https://tradingeconomics.com/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

On the contrary … the UK government’s refusal to accept unprecedented interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state has forced the petulant ideologues of the EU to start behaving like adults. About time too.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:Yes: Acting like 5 yr olds who have lost their comfort blanket :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So it didn't mean 1st safe country they entered then as you first posted. Make your mind up what it is!

---------- Post added at 00:46 ---------- Previous post was at 00:44 ----------

Your love of the EU is reaching the point of overflowing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

BoJo is behaving like a badly-behaved kid at the supermarket. Having agreed with his mother that he will get a KitKat if he behaves himself, he has thrown all his toys out of the trolley and is trying to fill it with more sweets everytime he passes some. He's even threatening to start eating them now if his poor mother trys to take hem off him.

NI's sovereignty is intrinsically different from Great Britain's. The Good Friday Agreement puts this in black and white yet David Frost is now calling his own agreement an afront to sovereignty. However, despite many on this forum and elsewhere applauding the last-minute Brexit deal, wiser folk recalled the saying "act in haste and repent at your leisure".

Brussels has done the adut thing by postponing legal action and hopefully BoJo will mature over the summer.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hopefully, we can agree that BoJo signed a deal that he did not intend to honour, his being of a perfidious disposition.

Will he sort it out or will he kick the can down the road and leave it for Gove or Starmer to sort out?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You know this bojo stuff is a big part in letting him off the hook, this infantilisation of him calling him boris, bojo etc just plays to his bumbling child act, he's an adult and needs to start being held accountable, for instance boris doesn't do detail, wtf, if it was johnson doesn't do detail people would be on the streets demanding he does or else and rightly so imo

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I've always been under the impression that all the work, preparation and finer details are done by those around the PM, and he's just the one that appears on TV and the photo shoots.

A bit like a marionette really, you see him performing but you know it's really someone else pulling the strings. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah I get the feeling he thought that's what the jobs all about to, must have come as a mighty shock when he realised it isn't, like when he was expected to work weekends

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wonders if Boris is following the Zaphod BeebleBrox Presidential Policy? After all the function isn't to wield power but to distract attention from those that do?


More seriously you wouldn't expect any PM to know all the "details", that's what ministers and the civil service are for. I wouldn't say someone else is controlling him but he is the public face for a load of faceless bureaucrats. Trouble for him though is that if it fails then it's his fault but if it all works it's the hard work of those on the ground.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

According to reports Boris is wealthy but cash-poor and that is a problem and why he ends up in trouble over funding "personal" things that really aren't that much of a problem at all. I think he is doing alright and hope he stays in place for some time.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'd rather have Boris rather than "Mr hindsight" Kier Starmer.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Actually on the very serious issues I do expect him or any PM for that matter to have more than a passing acquaintance with the subject, it's to important not to, other politicians can manage it but then perhaps they take the job more seriously

The chicken feed? Thing is if he is displaced who replaces him? I don't like the cut of any of their jibs and sometimes it's better the bozo you know

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

I think I would to

John Deadwood isn't the answer I'm afraid, that ship sailed

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't think there's really any point putting forward our suggestions for the next PM, unless of course it was a public vote (which would end up as a tie between Jeremy Clarkson and some boobjob from 'Love Island')

The Conservatives (if still in power) will elect their own leader, and I doubt honesty and integrity will play as much part as 'mates & chums' in the decision ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Another non story from an analyst on an American news site.

oh, and the figures quoted regarding 'legal services' are peanuts compared to things that really matter ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You might want to have a word with your peanut supplier about their pricing… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Thing is these peanuts add up to, I see people saying well those fishermen only contribute blah or I don't care about those ex pats forced to come back because I could never do it etc but all these things represent people and there situations add up, I wonder if we'll ever say the cost isn't worth it

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The legal sector employs 350,000 people in the UK so that's not peanuts by any stretch of the imagination. But as you say, all the other peanuts like small companies ending exporting or fishermen throwing in the towel all add up.

The main point of my post was however to illustrate a lever the EU has on us which is not immediately apparent to most people. There will doubtless be other levers as well.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm sure you'll do your best in finding them for our appraisal :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The UK has provided the EU with plenty of excuses not to approve its re-admission. The situation suits the EU especially as Johnson and Frost are acting a bit rogue at the moment. Another example of the UK not holding all the cards.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Which is why quite a few of us wanted a new deck to play with, and not the one we have now with thumbnail marks on the aces :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not really, the Lugano Convention aids the functioning of the Single Market. Only one country has joined the convention that wasn't part of the Single Market - Poland. At that was part of the process of joining the EU.

The thinking is Single Market - Lugano Convention, third countries - Hague 2005 and 2019 Conventions

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The country elected Johnson as a new PM but he inherited May's place at the table and at her hand as well.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This is an interesting piece on the Lugano Convention. I'm sure that leavers will be falling over themselves to agree with its statement "The EU's pretence that the UK is a third-country like any other is a misrepresentation of reality."

To me, it shows the time is ripe to ditch Frost and replace him with someone who genuinely wants to build a strong relationship with the EU.
https://euobserver.com/opinion/152521

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's just another 'opinion piece', this one by a former Labour MEP and a former Italian diplomat.

We all have opinions, I doubt mine would make it to print ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

By adopting a non-perfidious approach.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

From which side?

in before Sephiroth :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We all have opinions but people are more interested in hearing the opinions of those who have worked in the area than us randoms plucked from the internet. ;)

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

Seph cited "we" presumably meaning the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's called fantasy politics. :D

In the current situation, honesty and good communication with EU and with the UK electorate is key. Hence the need for a trustworthy, fresh face at the negotiating table.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You really want someone honest & trustworthy facing the EU across the negotiating table?

I think a second hand car salesman would be a better option . . they'd be more aware of the clever wording of the small print :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That’s not a problem, as I’m sure any deal would undergo suitable extensive Parliamentary scrutiny, with plenty of time to spot any ‘gotchas’…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:D

Parliamentary people who are prone to leaving classified documents on park benches or the back seat of a taxi wouldn't notice small print if it was written on the inside of their eyelids ;)

A second hand care salesman however, knows exactly the contents and whereabouts of those 'oh so important' documents . . . right up until the cheque clears, after which he's unavailable for further comment on why the paint ran in the car wash, the brakes squeal, and why the headlights have started acting like indicators. That's the man to negotiate for us :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's for a deft negotiator to sort out but they are the larger entity. What cards do we hold?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'll get in before my good friend Carth!

Your answer is very clear: There is little chance of even a deft negotiator improving relations with the EU to the extent that the EU does not then call the shots.

If you know that, why would you suggest that we improve relations with the EU? Why would you settle for the EU calling the shots in any "improved" relationship?

How are you going to wriggle out of this one?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You need to own your decision to vote for Johnson and Brexit and not try and push the responsibility for sorting the situation out onto others.

Your MP may be worth consulting - after all it was he who said 'Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards.'

But having a new negotiator will engender much-needed trust so that's one piece of advice I can give you.