Re: Coronavirus
 

BREAKING: Prime Minister Boris Johnson announces that London, South East and East, areas moved into new Tier 4 with “stay at home” message by law. Christmas bubbles only allowed for Tiers 1 - 3 on Xmas Day only. Previous 5 day relaxation of restrictions has now been revoked for ALL Tiers.

Re: Coronavirus
 

London now paying the price for being in T2 when they never should have been.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well, London/SE, you’re certainly special now

---------- Post added at 16:31 ---------- Previous post was at 16:30 ----------

This !!!!!!! But if I remember rightly from some on here they couldn’t because of transport links

Re: Coronavirus
 

Boris forget the green makeup. :erm:

Luckily we're still in tier 2 so we plan to go to my sister's on Boxing day unless things change.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Greater Manchester has been in a Tier 3 style lockdown for a considerable time, now for the first time, London is now in a higher Tier than Manchester.

---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------

Sorry bud but it has changed, you can only go to your sisters on Christmas day, if you stick to your plans, then you would be breaking the law. There is no longer a 5 day relaxation for any Tier.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Umm unless that’s your support bubble then you’re not meant to, Christmas bubble is now only Christmas Day for tiers 1-3 and not applicable to tier 4

Edit: beaten to it by Mick ��

Re: Coronavirus
 

Unless im wrong you can ONLY meet on on Christmas Day now.

My Christmas is screwed i'm meant to be going to Family in Wales on the 23rd-27th, now i can only do the 25th and that may get cancelled once the Wales government make their rules.

Re: Coronavirus
 

She lives alone and is in our support bubble.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You’re good then :)

Re: Coronavirus
 

There could be quite a lot of people contacting their families tonight l suspect to cancel their planned visits.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yes, i'm meant to be going to Wales near Chester from 23rd-27th and if the Welsh rules mirror England's new rules i can only do that on 25th or possibly not at all, which means i will be all alone over Christmas.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well the law, as they say, is an ass. I won’t be changing any plans.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Thank God you are ok, as others have said I think that plenty of rest is wise.

This new mutation is as creepy as it is scary. It's almost as if covid is a living creature with intelligence and that it's realised that we are trying to stall it's progress with measures like social distancing, masks etc, so it's mutated to make it more likely to infect new hosts by 70%.

---------- Post added at 16:56 ---------- Previous post was at 16:50 ----------

Lots of people on social media are mirroring what you say.

I wonder if they intend/are able to enforce these new rules and if so, how strictly? Will there be road blocks or police cars patrolling to see if one particular property has an unusually high number of cars parked outside?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not creepy at all, every virus, especially corona type mutate over time. It is nothing new.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Viruses mutate, it is a scientific fact, the common cold is a form of virus, the body becomes immune to it, but it is continuously mutating which is why there is no known cure for it, I suspect Covid-19 may be in this realm of non-curability.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yes, that is true, but it's as if it's aware that we are trying to stop it doing what it wants to do, so has taken steps to circumvent the steps that we've taken. It's as if it's trying to preserve itself, which I find creepy because they don't possess intelligence.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Applying strong selective pressure: Masks, spacing etc will drive this process and only the more infectious versions will survive.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Do you know if they always mutate to their advantage? I wonder if any mutate to their detriment.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Metro: Londoners face being arrested if they try and leave city after midnight

https://metro.co.uk/2020/12/19/londo...metrouktwitter

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well, they wouldn't spread well then.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Just the same as the Cold or Flu, why do you think you need a flu jab “every” year?

You’ll just end up probably having a combined annual flu/Covid jab.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The whole of Wales is to be placed under lockdown from midnight with festive plans cancelled for all but Christmas Day.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-55376873

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well we can hope that our bodies 'remember' having a similar virus so it becomes less lethal over time.

At the moment this mutation is not expected to be immune to the vaccine.

---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 17:12 ----------

This is pathetic from the Government though. They knew this same data a few days ago. They keep coming to the same decision that scientists, doctors, SAGE and the other political parties come to just days later.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Welcome back to 1940’s continental Europe. Be prepared to be stopped by shady looking guys in leather trench coats and wire rimmed glasses asking for your “papers”

Re: Coronavirus
 

No. We said they couldn't break up the boroughs because of the transport links. London can be in whatever tier it needs to be but ALL of London has to be in it.

This is sensible for London though, if there has to be a tier 4 then London obviously has to be in it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Now now, we’d never recruit so many people to work for the state nor pay for quality coats.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Trying to work out the precise rules and exemptions.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I would not waste such time doing so, they may change by 10pm and then get walked back on Monday.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Apologies, you argued that because the average across all boroughs was low (despite two boroughs Havering & I can’t remember the other one having higher rates per 100,000 than tier 3 areas) that it shouldn’t be placed into tier 3

In retrospect would you still agree to that ?

Sensible, would have been to go into tier 3 instead of tier 2 your argument simply allowed London to become a Petri dish. And now the exodus will allow transmission across the country

Re: Coronavirus
 

Even harder for me for travelling to Wales.

From what i understand is the whole of Wales will be in tier 4 from midnight, which means no one from the UK can travel into tier 4 from tiers 1,2 or 3 and only then they can only doing it on Christmas Day from those tiers, so no overnight stays.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Knee jerkery of the highest order. I’m afraid Boris has pretty much cashed all of the good will and support he’d built up.

There is no leadership here.

If they capitulate on Brexit that’ll be it for me.

Re: Coronavirus
 

All the Cinderellas will leave the ball before midnight. :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Given U.K. gov handling of COVID, do you expect them to handle Brexit any better ?

(Genuinely interested to get your thoughts/views)

Re: Coronavirus
 

I said that's why we were placed in tier 2. I didn't know if it's right or not. But my point is more that we had to all be in the same tier because it simply not how London functions to treat the boroughs as independent units.

At the time London has the same level of the virus as other tier 2 areas. Manchester had higher and has in tier 3. Liverpool had about the same and was tier 2.

I don't want to have this argument again but I agree with the decision that all of London is treated the same this time as well as we move into tier 4.

I think in retrospect London could have been placed in tier 3 but I also think there is evidence it wouldn't have mattered. Kent has also been bumped up to tier 4 from 3 despite already having been tier 3. All the home countries have been placed in tier 4 despite them having had lower cases than London when they were placed in tier 2.

In other words, I think that whilst London probably should have been in tier 3 I don't think it would have prevented this move into tier 4. Especially if it is because of this 'more transmissible' virus.

And it is what it is. It's disappointing but there is a global pandemic going around and for the first time since the original lockdown it's London which has the highest cases.

---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

It's not even knee jerkery, that would imply they changed it as the numbers changed. Instead, they wait a few days and then do the same thing anyway.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The main factor for the more severe rules is this new variant with the suggestion is spreads more easily.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Italy are doing the a bit of the same over Christmas and New Year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55372491

Re: Coronavirus
 

Lights out at 8pm -slop out at 6am -breakfast [porridge] 07-45 quick turn around the yard 08-30- followed by bang up until slop out 6am..........









HMP UK.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You've got to feel sorry for everyone who made Christmas plans in good faith though, and thought they'd be traveling to stay away from home with family (or receiving family). There are now freezers up and down the land with a turkey that's way too large, and others who have no Christmas dinner in the house at all because they thought they wouldn't need one. The supermarkets are going to be absolute pandemonium this week.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I do, I suspect however that the vast majority of people will say ‘screw you’

Re: Coronavirus
 

Meanwhile, in South America

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/cov...C42IHQQFE7NPM/

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yer, my Christmas plans are now travel to Wales early Christmas Day and travel back to Cambridge in the evening, can't risk breaking the rules when i have to travel so far, so many cameras about!

This could all go tits up though if my area enters Tier 4 before then.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Thankfully we did not make any plans to start with as hopefully when it gets toward the warmer weather next year we will see the rest of our family more then.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Boris Johnson July 2020
Maybe he should do 'thinking' before opening his stupid fat gob again.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Irony alert!!!!!!! :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm not fat ;)

Boris is incredibly thick and slow though, no denying that.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well Boris Johnson did say it would be a wonderful year...;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

I feel sorry for BoJo - the evidence put before him must have been overwhelming, because there is no way he wanted to put London into lockdown or cancel 4 out of the 5 days of Christmas break previously announced.

On a related note, interesting article in the BMJ about the variant.

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4857

Re: Coronavirus
 

If he had acted sooner then it night not have been necessary. Too slow to act at every stage of this pandemic, denying the science until he can't ignore it. His inaction has resulted in the highest number of deaths in Europe.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I assume you therefore lay exactly the same charge at the doors of Mark Drakeford in Wales and Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland, as there’s barely a fag paper’s difference between the decisions they’ve taken and the statistics in each nation.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You could say that about the number of people who broke the rules too, house parties anyone?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Italy has reclaimed the highest death toll in Europe to Covid-19, albeit only just and their population is a lot less than ours.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I mean I would in this case.

I have sympathy with how difficult these decisions are but we seem to constantly be a week or so out from when they need to be taken. Lockdown 1, Lockdown 2 'Circut Breaker' and Lockdown 3 'Cancel Christmas'.

The decision today was being loudly advocated for since the start of the week. Nothing much has changed. Why wait this long?

I think people will be angrier at the late notice, just 3 days after saying they can't cancel it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The situation in Scotland seems slightly more ridiculous with “schools at all costs” forcing some LAs (not all, and to a varying degree) to keep schools in up to 23rd before three households mixing is permitted on 25th.

Yet now there will be an additional week off with online learning for a further week. Other than for key workers pupils will not return to 18th January.

Being proactive before Christmas would have driven the numbers down prior to the risks of the 25th. With most schools not returning until at least 10 days later in any case.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Agreed. The accusation of tardiness has weight to it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Totally agree with that, utter madness to keep them open till the 23rd.

Re: Coronavirus
 

"nothing much has changed"?:confused:

That is what has changed. As that variant is spreading more rapidly, the threshold for an "acceptable" level of infection drops lower. Eg If something spreads twice as easily, then a doubling up of cases quickly escalates.

Re: Coronavirus
 

That was known several days ago but he didn't act. Just carry on as planned was the message. Every day counts with this virus.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Here's the guidelines.

https://gov.wales/alert-level-4-guide

There is no Christmas day relaxation in Wales.

Re: Coronavirus
 

What exactly was known several days ago? The new variant is one thing, but the analysis that it's spreads more rapidly is another. That wouldn't have been known without detailed examination of the figures.
The NEW evidence suggests that where somewhere had R number of X, the new variant increases that R number by 0.4, eg R number of 0.8 becomes 1.2. Decisions would have been previously made on the understanding of the lower R number.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Our head has been fighting with the LA to close the school for well over a week as more and more kids were sent home. She finally got her way on Thursday, but the school had to lose most of S4, 5 and 6 (and some of S1) before the cooncil relented. Our offspring were at home with their new chromebooks on Friday and for the rest of term. But it had to get really, really bad before this was allowed.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I've friends who are teachers and they describe a grim, deteriorating situation. As someone with fond memories of doing no work and watching movies recorded off television on VHS in my last week before Christmas and summer holidays I do have to question if it is worth it vs a week after that would be ramping up work in the new term.

Re: Coronavirus
 

They need to do this


Masks MUST be worn inside, no mask no entry no excuses no exceptions, if your health is that bad shop online or get someone to do it for you.


Masks MUST cover the mouth and Nose, no clear visors on there own.



Security can stop you entering the store, and eject you immediately if you are caught taking the mask off. After all the Health and Safety at work act says the employer has a duty to protect his staff.



The minority cannot be allowed to dictate public health.


I have been called a bully and I should stay at home buy these Covidiots.

Re: Coronavirus
 

One of the problems is with these £10,000 fines for holding a large gathering. So many individuals know they're never going to be asked to pay that, so effectively there is no punishment.
Link

Re: Coronavirus
 

That is already the policy and has been since the start%?

What evidence do you have that visors are ineffective? Masks aren’t for everyone

not all premises have security. Premises already have the power to allow, or not allow, in whoever they wish

They already do, there’s been 173,000 “infections” recorded in the last week, which it’s about people 0.25% of the population, if that isn’t the minority dictating I don’t know what is.

Re: Coronavirus
 

In Greenwich, London - and I assume this applies to the rest of England - it's been central Government that's forced the schools to remain open.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55317971

Re: Coronavirus
 

Link

Re: Coronavirus
 

Priti Patel, not someone known for her love of numbers, shall we say, has had her "embarassing" £10k fine policy cancelled.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...super-23026294

Re: Coronavirus
 

Wales to go into severe lockdown, because all the previous lockdowns have been so successful?

What is the definition of stupidity/ insanity again?

When lockdown doesn’t work, the obvious solution is more lockdown.

Re: Coronavirus
 

They were resumed. Keep up.
Link
Link
A few day later after the suspension of issuing fines.
Link

Re: Coronavirus
 

That’s a misleading headline, they don’t go “through” the shield, they’re not Covid Copperfield viruses.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yup, missus is a primary teacher and amazed at the science that has proven it’s totally safe for teachers, unlike any other adults, to be in a bubble with 20-30 other families.... :erm:

Re: Coronavirus
 

So all of the 136million articles on face shield effectiveness are misleading?:confused:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Lockdown 1 was successful though, it clearly had a halting impact on the virus.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Face mask or plastic face shield, same thing . . . helps to prevent the spread of virus particles in face to face contact.

We use face shields at work, as do many places.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It depends what the goal is.

Governments gave up on/abandoned the idea of eliminating the virus as New Zealand and others have deciding summer holidays and the return of schools would be more beneficial.

So the goal is to reduce the number of cases and therefore hospitalisations and deaths, pushing them to the other side of a vaccine rollout. By this measure, which I don't agree with I think they should have pushed for the former, then lockdowns are a resounding success but only a sticking plaster to buy time.

Re: Coronavirus
 

They don’t go through the visor, the visor is a hard barrier, they may then get around the visor and the effectiveness of that can be addressed, but it cannot go “through” the visor that is a physical impossibility.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Great and comprehensive FullFact repudiatuion of the lockdown sceptics. This is a small excerpt.
https://fullfact.org/health/can-we-b...down-sceptics/

Re: Coronavirus
 

Link

Re: Coronavirus
 

Except lockdowns do work, as linked to above.

Full Fact acknowledges
https://fullfact.org/health/can-we-b...down-sceptics/

Re: Coronavirus
 

Same here, Mrs Daveeb teaches 3 different classes on different days each week as well. I'm amazed she hasn't caught anything yet, thank goodness for that school building conferred immunity.

Re: Coronavirus
 

ha nice link nomadking, can you now recommend where I turn to in order to start legal proceedings against my employers, who so obviously are not providing me (and others) with the adequate protection required to stay open?

let me guess . . . you're an office worker :rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well that's an exciting week. Tier one into tier 3 and into tier 4 in less than 2 days. Good job we had absolutely no plans to meet any family.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yeah, really working for them. The results speak for themselves,

Re: Coronavirus
 

What's the alternative? Let it run wild like Sweden? Those results speak for themselves.

It's somewhat ironic we knocked back the New Zealand option for the sake of international travel when, in all likelihood, international travel restrictions will remain up to and potentially beyond significant amounts of vaccine rollout here. Other sectors like hospitality here have lost out massively, furlough will have undoubtedly cost more.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The New Zealand option was never an option for us. A country of 5 million at the bottom of the world and close to nowhere is no comparison to the UK, which has a massive economy, 12 times the population and a high volume of inbound and outbound travel through one of the busiest international airports in the world. The disruption of a no-deal Brexit will be as nothing compared to the sheer chaos of closing ourselves down completely for long enough to make a difference, yet the mere possibility of No Deal has been raising ever more hysterical objections for many months.

Re: Coronavirus
 

They dont 'need' to do anything.

The minority already are, you just happen to disagree with them.

I've been called lots of things over my life, so have most other people.
We know your view, so now you can stop posting it every chance you get.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I just think we didn’t want to try hard enough and always saw Sweden or the next pipe dream and clung to it. Antibody testing, Operation Moonshot, whatever.

International travel ground to a halt in lockdown 1 and we survived. It remains significantly down now. Measures like testing, screening and quarantine could all be used to reduce risk.

We wouldn’t be closing ourselves entirely down - New Zealand still receives goods from abroad. As would we. It’s the people who are the problem and we’d need to mitigate that. Surely it’d be less economic harm in the long run to get all of our non-travel economy up and running?

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'd love to know how you are going to mitigate people being the problem.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Zoom?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Good luck with that.

Meanwhile.

(my bold)

Link

Re: Coronavirus
 

'sigh' well it comes as no surprise to me that some 'experts' have a different view of this new strain. :rolleyes:

I've had enough of all this, being 'unlucky' enough to not be able to work from home, I've had 9 months of all work and no play - screw this for a lark, if it gets me it gets me, don't give a flying one anymore :mad:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well it stands to reason, our economy didn’t collapse because of no international travel in March.

Processes can be put in place at ports, testing, isolating workers from the rest of the population. New Zealand isn’t some self sustainable wonderland. What have they put in place?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Are you suggesting that it is being hyped up to exert more control over the population? I think I’m going to start wearing a tinfoil hat.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Meanwhile the sales of jackboot polish....

Re: Coronavirus
 

And Hugo Boss trench coats.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I note that both yourself and Pip fail to acknowledge that the data regarding increased transmission capability’s was provided to the government on Friday.

The article Pip is referencing, and your comment is based on has been superseded and is no longer relevant.

Re: Coronavirus
 

As far as I can see tier 4 is just like the first lockdown in March which didn't really impact on my life anyway. As long as the food shops, pharmacies and other essential shops are open we will be fine. I'm sad for those who wanted to see family for Christmas but there will be another time when we can meet up safely. Let's be safe until then. Just check up on family on a regular basis by whatever method suits as long as it's socially distanced.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The article I referenced is dated 19/12/2020. That would be yesterday.

Re: Coronavirus
 

That would be the published date, the first few words give the date of the comments. Which would be Tuesday the 15th December

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

Grant Shapps issues statement saying extra police will be deployed to Tier 4 to enforce travel restrictions.

Source BBC

Re: Coronavirus
 

You think new evidence appeared in 3 days about a strain that has been around for months?

Dr Susan Hopkins (PHE) on impact of new variant: (today on Ridge on Sunday)

-'No signals' of increased mortality in SE.
-No disproportionate admissions to hospital or disproportionate increases in mortality.