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denphone 03-09-2019 06:17
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008525)
Point of order.

Boris Johnson cannot call a General Election/dissolve Parliament - not his decision. It requires (at least) one Commons vote, and needs 2/3rds of MPs approval.

:D
Actually teacher l know l am not one of the brightest lads in the class but l did know that it needed 2/3rds of MP's approval.

:D

Mick 03-09-2019 07:45
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36008533)
Credit where it's due, that's quite a cunning move from his constituency party. I wonder if other constituency parties will follow suit?
That meeting was planned way in advance. The one where it’s members were not allowed to attend. Doesn’t matter. Remainiac Hammond, would still face Whip being withdrawn.

---------- Post added at 06:45 ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008525)
Point of order.

Boris Johnson cannot call a General Election/dissolve Parliament - not his decision. It requires (at least) one Commons vote, and needs 2/3rds of MPs approval.

:D

btw, not sure of the logic process that seems to believe if a majority vote for the bill (which has now been published by Hilary Benn) which would force the PM to request a Brexit delay to 31 January 2020 unless MPs had approved a new deal, the same majority would then vote for a dissolution of Parliament/General Election which would cause a No Deal Brexit to happen...
That’s not a valid point of order. It doesn’t need two thirds vote to revoke the fixed term parliament act altogether.

1andrew1 03-09-2019 09:35
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Looks like Hammond and allies believe they have enough numbers so the unelected Australian Cummings v democratically-elected British Parliament battle is on!

denphone 03-09-2019 09:42
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36008547)
Looks like Hammond and allies believe they have enough numbers so the unelected Australian Cummings v democratically-elected British Parliament battle is on!
We are not even up to mid morning yet and both sides have started already with Gavin Barwell calling the government’s Brexit negotiations a sham and Dominic Raab saying that attempts to block a no-deal Brexit is a deeply reckless and irresponsible piece of legislation.

pip08456 03-09-2019 10:29
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
1 Attachment(s)
Justine Greening will not be standing for the Conservatives at the next election.

denphone 03-09-2019 11:26
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36008550)
Justine Greening will not be standing for the Conservatives at the next election.
Keith Simpson, the MP for Broadland in Norfolk is another one who is standing down at the next general election as well.

Quote:
Keith Simpson, the MP for Broadland in Norfolk, has joined Justine Greening in announcing he will step down at the next general election on Radio Norfolk. Simpson said he made the decision “months ago” but now feels like “the first officer to man the lifeboats on the Titanic”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...al-brexit-live

Chris 03-09-2019 11:41
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
An interesting piece of speculation from the BBC’s Norman Smith this morning. If, as is sounding increasingly likely, the no-no-deal bill passes and Labour then refuses to support Boris’ call for a general election, Boris could go to the European Council on 17 October and, as mandated, ask for an extension to Art.50. Then, as a member of the European Council, he could veto the granting of an extension. :rofl:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-49557734

Hugh 03-09-2019 11:46
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Just beat me to it- interesting approach.

Quote:
No 10 has warned the prime minister would push for a general election on 14 October if MPs successfully vote to block a no-deal Brexit.

But to trigger an election Boris Johnson would need the backing of two-thirds of MPs - including some opposition MPs.

BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith says there is a growing indication Labour would not support Mr Johnson's attempts to call an early general election because they fear he could then delay the polling date until after the UK has left the EU without a deal.

So what would be Mr Johnson's options then?

Firstly he could table a motion of no confidence in his own government to trigger an election. This avenue only requires a simple majority but there is still no guarantee it would get the required support.

Secondly, Mr Johnson could simply sit on the no-deal legislation passed in the Commons to prevent it from gaining royal assent and becoming law. However, MPs would almost certainly take him to court over this and seek a judicial review, which they would most likely win.

The last option would be for Mr Johnson to go to the EU summit on 17 October with Parliament asking him to seek a delay - but then veto this. To secure a delay would require the support of all 28 members of the EU. As the UK is still a member, Mr Johnson could - however bizarre this might sound - veto his own government's position.

Chris 03-09-2019 11:52
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
I wonder whether Norm came up with that idea himself, or if he’s being fed by a No.10 source. The latter, I suspect. There are a lot of mind games being played this morning, seemingly to underscore the futility of opposing Boris on this. He was quite emphatic that he wouldn’t ask for an article 50 extension yesterday ... politicians are rarely so explicit. Yet it is still much, much easier for Boris in the immediate term if the bill falls and there isn’t an election before 31 October. The government clearly wants rebels to see the pointlessness and futility of sacrificing their careers on a gesture that ultimately won’t change anything.

Hugh 03-09-2019 12:45
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-49557734 @11:03
Quote:
Claims that Boris Johnson's top adviser does not believe in a new withdrawal agreement could be "the most damaging leak" for the prime minister, the BBC's Andrew Marr has said.

The Daily Telegraph reports today that Dominic Cummings said in internal strategy meetings he considered fresh negotiations with the EU to be a "sham".

The comments directly contradict what Mr Johnson has previously said about wanting to secure a new deal with Brussels.
From the Telegraph, BJ's/Brexit's biggest supporter.

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status...itics-49557734

Quote:
EXC: Inside Brexit War Cabinet:

- Dominic Cummings described EU negotiation as "a sham" in internal strategy meetings, per two highly placed sources.

- AG Cox warned Johnson it was "complete fantasy" to think EU would bin backstop

https://t.co/jU8TkvAtow?amp=1

At the heart of this story is the question as to whether:

a) the Johnson administration is sincere about getting a new deal with the EU

b) if they seriously trying, having not yet presented any substantive proposals

In that meeting Sherpa David Frost made presentation entitled “Approach to engagement with the EU on renegotiation” - in which the repeated idea was to "run down the clock". That was adopted as 'formal policy'.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDfaXt0X...g&name=900x900

denphone 03-09-2019 13:00
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
According to Sky's Sam Coates.

Quote:
No 10 says Boris Johnson would not change proposed election date.
Quote:
Pressed on whether he would obey any rebel legislation passed this week on an extension

“He will not ask for an extension. If we do lose control of order paper and those negs undermined then he would seek an early election”
Quote:
Governments always abide by purdah rules.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky?ref...al-brexit-live

nomadking 03-09-2019 13:07
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008558)
I think you'll find that it is and always has been, the EU that are conducting sham negotiations. If the EU are steadfastly refusing to remove the backstop, then there is nothing more to negotiate about. Even membership of the EU had a get-out clause, ie Article 50. The backstop doesn't.

BenMcr 03-09-2019 13:53
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36008560)
Even membership of the EU had a get-out clause, ie Article 50. The backstop doesn't.
Yes, it does. The get-out clause to the backstop is the 'alternative arrangements' that Boris says he already has but apparently hasn't told the EU what they are.

Chris 03-09-2019 14:21
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36008563)
Yes, it does. The get-out clause to the backstop is the 'alternative arrangements' that Boris says he already has but apparently hasn't told the EU what they are.
Not sure if you’re wilfully misunderstanding the point, but Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty can be triggered unilaterally by any EU member state. The backstop provisions of the withdrawal treaty state that the backstop may only be exited by agreement of both the UK and the EU.

If the backstop were triggered, it would be entirely possible for the UK to be kept in a form of associate membership of the EU, yet without voting privileges or representation, simply by the EU’s refusal to allow us to leave. Given that these circumstances would most likely transpire in the middle of trade deal negotiations, there is a very clear and obvious incentive for the EU to hold the backstop over the UK government as a means of extracting concessions.

The backstop is absolutely absurd and intolerable to any sovereign democratic state.

nomadking 03-09-2019 14:26
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 36008563)
Yes, it does. The get-out clause to the backstop is the 'alternative arrangements' that Boris says he already has but apparently hasn't told the EU what they are.
But the EU has to agree to anything and everything. There is no ability to unilaterally stop it.
Withdrawal Agreement pages 305&308

Quote:
but that this
Protocol is based on the third scenario of maintaining full alignment with those rules of the Union's
internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support North-South
cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement, to apply unless and
until an alternative arrangement implementing another scenario is agreed,
...

4. The objective of the Withdrawal Agreement is not to establish a permanent relationship
between the Union and the United Kingdom. The provisions of this Protocol are therefore intended
to apply only temporarily, taking into account the commitments of the Parties set out in Article
2(1). The provisions of this Protocol shall apply unless and until they are superseded, in whole or in
part, by a subsequent agreement.

Hugh 03-09-2019 14:55
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36008544)
That meeting was planned way in advance. The one where it’s members were not allowed to attend. Doesn’t matter. Remainiac Hammond, would still face Whip being withdrawn.

---------- Post added at 06:45 ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 ----------



That’s not a valid point of order. It doesn’t need two thirds vote to revoke the fixed term parliament act altogether.
However, 3 problems.

1) The government doesn't really have a majority, especially if it removes the whip from rebels - they've got nothing to lose if they're going to be de-selected (bit of an own-goal, that one...)
2) Any bill to revoke the FTPA would be amendable.
3) It would have to go through the Lords, so it might take some time to call an election.

Of course, it could be done by government calling a vote of no confidence in the government. It’s "you couldn’t make it up territory"...

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2019/09/1.jpg

BenMcr 03-09-2019 15:08
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36008566)
Not sure if you’re wilfully misunderstanding the point, but Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty can be triggered unilaterally by any EU member state. The backstop provisions of the withdrawal treaty state that the backstop may only be exited by agreement of both the UK and the EU
I wasn't making comment on how the get-out clause works, I was pointing out that one exists.

However, the EU have been quite clear that they don't want the backstop, but for them it has to exist to protect the integrity of their single market and customs union. The alternative is a hard border that all other 3rd party countries have with the EU where an agreement does not exist, and that then violates the Good Friday Agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36008567)
But the EU has to agree to anything and everything. There is no ability to unilaterally stop it.
Withdrawal Agreement pages 305&308
Correct. It would not be the backstop without that, and would require the hard border instead in order to protect the single market and customs union.

Chris 03-09-2019 15:36
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008570)
However, 3 problems.

1) The government doesn't really have a majority, especially if it removes the whip from rebels - they've got nothing to lose if they're going to be de-selected (bit of an own-goal, that one...)
2) Any bill to revoke the FTPA would be amendable.
3) It would have to go through the Lords, so it might take some time to call an election.

Of course, it could be done by government calling a vote of no confidence in the government. It’s "you couldn’t make it up territory"...
If Labour presents as its reason for not supporting a general election, the fact that once parliament is dissolved the date of the election is in Boris’ gift, and they don’t trust him to call it before 1 November, then it is possible to both bypass the FTPA and write the date of the legislation into law with a simple bill that states that the provisions of the FTPA are temporarily set aside in order to hold an election on X date.

The objection about the date sounds like little more than a convenient excuse. A General Election (2019) Bill would smoke them out. It would also require only a simple majority to pass.

Damien 03-09-2019 16:20
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
You have to be careful with setting the date in law as then Parliament can’t change it. The reason the PM has the power to change it is in case there is an emergency. Such as a terrorist attack, and so it would be better to delay a week or so.

Dave42 03-09-2019 16:40
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Lewis Goodall

@lewis_goodall
·
1m


BREAKING: Philip Lee crosses the floor and joins the Lib Dems.

The government now has a majority of -1.

denphone 03-09-2019 17:16
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36008581)
Lewis Goodall

@lewis_goodall
·
1m


BREAKING: Philip Lee crosses the floor and joins the Lib Dems.

The government now has a majority of -1.
Here is part of the statement from Phillip Lee explaining his defection to the Lib Dems.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...al-brexit-live

Quote:
After a great deal of thought, I have reached the conclusion that it is not possible to serve my constituents’ and country’s best interests as a Conservative member of parliament.

Quote:
I am dismayed at what the Conservative party has become, the role that it has played in feeding division and populism, in squandering a hard-won reputation for sound stewardship, and the blinkered direction in which it has set our country. Those are not my values. I will not implicitly condone these things by being party to them.

Quote:
That is why today I am joining Jo Swinson and the Liberal Democrats. I believe the Liberal Democrats are best placed to build the unifying and inspiring political force needed to heal our divisions, unleash our talents, equip us to take the opportunities and overcome the challenges that we face as a society - and leave our country and our world in a better place for the next generations.

Chris 03-09-2019 17:19
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Brexit really is the gift that keeps on giving, isn’t it. There’s been enough this year to last a political anorak a lifetime, and it’s not over yet.

jfman 03-09-2019 17:31
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
It's compelling viewing. That and a recession house price collapse is all good news for anyone that enjoys chaos.

ianch99 03-09-2019 17:44
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36008585)
Here is part of the statement from Phillip Lee explaining his defection to the Lib Dems.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...al-brexit-live
He has seen the rise of Blue Momentum and has had enough. Good on him.

So we have Red Momentum on one side and Blue Momentum on the other. Johnson is pushing through the demise of the Tory party as was so there is an up side to all of this. In the same way, the Labour of old was taken over by radicals & activists, the Tory party has gone the same way.

We just need someone with a modest amount of talent and no baggage to sweep up the vacant centre ground. It is a political open goal at the moment.

.. orders more popcorn ...

Pierre 03-09-2019 17:44
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
I think an election is absolutely inevitable and now necessary.

Then all those conservatives that don't wish to stand under Johnson, and his Brexit manifesto, can do the honourable thing and decline to stand and al those that defected to Lib-Dems or as independents can stand again against a new conservative candidate, and put their case to the electorate.

Corbyn has done nothing but demand another election since 2017, so if one was offered it would be amazing if he didn't back it.

denphone 03-09-2019 17:49
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36008593)
He has seen the rise of Blue Momentum and has had enough. Good on him.

So we have Red Momentum on one side and Blue Momentum on the other. Johnson is pushing through the demise of the Tory party as was so there is an up side to all of this. In the same way, the Labour of old was taken over by radicals & activists, the Tory party has gone the same way.

We just need someone with a modest amount of talent and no baggage to sweep up the vacant centre ground. It is a political open goal at the moment.

.. orders more popcorn ...
So here we have it on one side If we do get this general election which seems increasingly likely then its Boris Johnson thugs against Jeremy Corbyn and his thugs , What a impossibly poor choice to have to make!!!!

Chris 03-09-2019 17:53
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36008589)
It's compelling viewing. That and a recession house price collapse is all good news for anyone that enjoys chaos.
A house price collapse is unavoidable at some point. Houses are meant for living in, not investments. As the Boomer influence at the ballot box wanes, so will the imperative to chase the votes of those with the most capital tied up in housing.

As far as chaos goes, well so far the chaos has spread no further than the Westminster bubble, and they’re quite welcome to it. For most of the last 20 years our politics has been anodyne and centrist, managerial in nature and lacking in conviction. We at last have new dividing lines that have forced our politicians to decide which side of the house they’re on and we have a very clear choice between Corbyn and Johnson.

All other predictions of chaos are, and remain until proven otherwise, nothing more than the wet dreams of remainers who still don’t accept they lost the referendum.

---------- Post added at 16:53 ---------- Previous post was at 16:50 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36008593)
He has seen the rise of Blue Momentum and has had enough. Good on him.

So we have Red Momentum on one side and Blue Momentum on the other.
These sound like supermarket own-brand caffeine/energy drinks :hyper: At a guess, the blue one’s in Sainsbury’s and the red one is in Morrisons.

Hugh 03-09-2019 17:55
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008594)
I think an election is absolutely inevitable and now necessary.

Then all those conservatives that don't wish to stand under Johnson, and his Brexit manifesto, can do the honourable thing and decline to stand and al those that defected to Lib-Dems or as independents can stand again against a new conservative candidate, and put their case to the electorate.

Corbyn has done nothing but demand another election since 2017, so if one was offered it would be amazing if he didn't back it.
So that should apply to the ERG and those who voted against May?

Dave42 03-09-2019 18:06
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008599)
So that should apply to the ERG and those who voted against May?
exactly total hypocrites the lot of them

nomadking 03-09-2019 18:20
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008594)
I think an election is absolutely inevitable and now necessary.

Then all those conservatives that don't wish to stand under Johnson, and his Brexit manifesto, can do the honourable thing and decline to stand and al those that defected to Lib-Dems or as independents can stand again against a new conservative candidate, and put their case to the electorate.

Corbyn has done nothing but demand another election since 2017, so if one was offered it would be amazing if he didn't back it.
It would seem any democratic votes are fair game to be ignored and overturned. Or does that depend on how the vote goes? People voted NO to Remain.

There ISN'T a deal on the table to accept or refuse. At most is a DELAY of just over a year. Anything that is supposed to happen on Nov 1st 2019, would happen anyway on Jan 1st 2021.

The hypocrites are the ones that say "no to no deal" when there isn't a deal as an alternative, and even said no to the Withdrawal Agreement.

How on earth can you say "no to no X", when there is no X? Just not possible.

Pierre 03-09-2019 18:40
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008599)
So that should apply to the ERG and those who voted against May?
Is May currently the PM? Did May call a GE? keep drinking the cool aid.

IIRC many of the ERG including JRM, did eventually compromise and reluctantly vote for May's deal.

If there is an election, there will be a manifesto. Depending what is in that manifesto, Tory candidates can decide if they want to stand up for it.

---------- Post added at 17:30 ---------- Previous post was at 17:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36008604)
It would seem any democratic votes are fair game to be ignored and overturned. Or does that depend on how the vote goes? People voted NO to Remain.

There ISN'T a deal on the table to accept or refuse. At most is a DELAY of just over a year. Anything that is supposed to happen on Nov 1st 2019, would happen anyway on Jan 1st 2021.

The hypocrites are the ones that say "no to no deal" when there isn't a deal as an alternative, and even said no to the Withdrawal Agreement.

How on earth can you say "no to no X", when there is no X? Just not possible.
No to No deal is a complete Red Herring.

It is Remain, an extension means nothing.

The Withdrawl Agreement has been comprehensively rejected by Parliament, no other deal is on offer.

An election is required in order to return a government that has a majority and united under a manifesto that promises to Leave with or without a deal.

It is a massive risk, another hung parliament is very probable.

The difference this time around however is.

a) the Brexit Party
b) a resurgent Lib Dems

---------- Post added at 17:40 ---------- Previous post was at 17:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36008529)
Philip Hammonds constituency have just 'confirmed his reselection'. So Tory HQ will have to override his constituency party and force someone else into the seat to deselect him (which I believe they have to power to do)
Just been confirmed on Sky news that if Hammond, or anyone, votes against the government they will lose the whip and will not be allowed to stand as a conservative candidate in an election, regardless.

jfman 03-09-2019 19:23
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36008596)
A house price collapse is unavoidable at some point. Houses are meant for living in, not investments. As the Boomer influence at the ballot box wanes, so will the imperative to chase the votes of those with the most capital tied up in housing.

As far as chaos goes, well so far the chaos has spread no further than the Westminster bubble, and they’re quite welcome to it. For most of the last 20 years our politics has been anodyne and centrist, managerial in nature and lacking in conviction. We at last have new dividing lines that have forced our politicians to decide which side of the house they’re on and we have a very clear choice between Corbyn and Johnson.

All other predictions of chaos are, and remain until proven otherwise, nothing more than the wet dreams of remainers who still don’t accept they lost the referendum.

---------- Post added at 16:53 ---------- Previous post was at 16:50 ----------



These sound like supermarket own-brand caffeine/energy drinks :hyper: At a guess, the blue one’s in Sainsbury’s and the red one is in Morrisons.
I'd say the currency collapse is a reality, not a wet dream.

Hugh 03-09-2019 20:23
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
1 Attachment(s)
Interesting...

jfman 03-09-2019 20:33
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008618)
Interesting...
But they’re true believers, Hugh. 75% of May’s team were remainers ;)

Pierre 03-09-2019 20:46
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008618)
Interesting...
Not really.

If you know what you want and what your prepared give, you only need a team of 1.

Damien 03-09-2019 21:47
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008605)
No to No deal is a complete Red Herring.

It is Remain, an extension means nothing.

The Withdrawl Agreement has been comprehensively rejected by Parliament, no other deal is on offer.
With this though....

I am a Remainer and I wanted May's Deal to pass. It wasn't perfect at all and much of it left me unhappy. It wasn't EEA for example.

But it wasn't No Deal. It gave us a two year period to get something else in place, and we'll eventually have to deal with the EU first anyway, and it gave some degree of confidence to the country. It helps us move on a bit too.

I hope Boris Johnson gets some, even cosmetic, details on the backstop that gets the deal though.

Hugh 03-09-2019 21:49
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008622)
Not really.

If you know what you want and what your prepared give, you only need a team of 1.
Only if you intend to fail...


Not been part of major multi-billion negotiations, have you?

It’s not like asking for 10% discount for cash in Currys...

Damien 03-09-2019 21:54
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008622)
Not really.

If you know what you want and what your prepared give, you only need a team of 1.
There was also the story from The Telegraph, hardly a Remainer paper, saying that Cummings said the talks are 'a sham'. Denied by No 10 but then why would The Telegraph of all papers lie about this and they claim to have multiple sources? It fits with the story about reducing the team and in the end if they had another idea for the backstop they could tell us.

They don't have another idea. Because there isn't one. If you don't have a customs union or agreement of some sort then there has to be a border with another country. That's it. There isn't any technological solution out there yet. People can say 'blockchain', 'AI' and 'the cloud' as much as they like but none of that tells us how you get around the prospect of regulatory divergence in a region there you want products to flow back and forth unchecked.

Therefore the Government must, just has to have, one of the following planned:
  1. A Deal before October 31st or be 'forced' into an extention
  2. A border in Ireland
  3. A border in the Irish Sea
  4. An unchecked border which would be a customs union essentally

Pierre 03-09-2019 22:10
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36008635)
With this though....

I am a Remainer and I wanted May's Deal to pass. It wasn't perfect at all and much of it left me unhappy. It wasn't EEA for example.

But it wasn't No Deal. It gave us a two year period to get something else in place, and we'll eventually have to deal with the EU first anyway, and it gave some degree of confidence to the country. It helps us move on a bit too.

I hope Boris Johnson gets some, even cosmetic, details on the backstop that gets the deal though.
The problem is though, that the backstop (IIRC) isn’t what Labour objected to in the deal.

Even if Boris navigates around the Backstop his problem is that Labour, if they revert to type, will just block anything that is put before them.

The only way Brexit happens is with a Government with a majority and a membership fully behind them. The only way of getting that is a GE. No guarantees though.

The funny thing is though the 2017 election, May tried to make about Brexit, but Labour made it about other issues and stole the initiative.

However, this election - if it happens will be squarely about Brexit.

---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008636)
Only if you intend to fail...
Not been part of major multi-billion negotiations, have you?
How many in your career of IT project management have you overseen?

Quote:
It’s not like asking for 10% discount for cash in Currys...
It’s not, your right. However, if I took in - I dunno- 50,000 friends and committed to buying 50,000 UHD tv’s, IPads, and PS4’ demanded 40% discount, and said if we don’t get it I’ll go to another retailer............I reckon i’d Get a dialogue going.

1andrew1 03-09-2019 22:54
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008618)
Interesting...
Pretty clear that BoJo's only plan is no deal, because solving the Irish border situation has proved impossible.

Hugh 03-09-2019 22:56
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008640)
The problem is though, that the backstop (IIRC) isn’t what Labour objected to in the deal.

Even if Boris navigates around the Backstop his problem is that Labour, if they revert to type, will just block anything that is put before them.

The only way Brexit happens is with a Government with a majority and a membership fully behind them. The only way of getting that is a GE. No guarantees though.

The funny thing is though the 2017 election, May tried to make about Brexit, but Labour made it about other issues and stole the initiative.

However, this election - if it happens will be squarely about Brexit.

---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------



How many in your career of IT project management have you overseen?



It’s not, your right. However, if I took in - I dunno- 50,000 friends and committed to buying 50,000 UHD tv’s, IPads, and PS4’ demanded 40% discount, and said if we don’t get it I’ll go to another retailer............I reckon i’d Get a dialogue going.
IT Project Management was part of my career - I have been an IT Director, IT Programme Manager, Head of Programme Management , Head of Portfolio Management, and Head of Technology for a multi-billion pound company, and have been an active part of the negotiations for programmes that were 10s of millions of pounds; these had teams involved in the negotiations of dozens of people, supported by Subject Matter Experts and teams.

The complexity involved in negotiating deals for thousands of different tracks that Brexit involves would be vastly more than any I was involved in, and I recognise this - you think it could be done by 1 person.

How many negotiations involving 10s of millions have you been involved?

Re your iPad example - Apple don’t discount on new iPads; they don’t need to (speaking as someone who bought 3000 in one go for a University, using our Procurement professionals); they can sell as many as they want at full price, they don’t need to discount.

1andrew1 03-09-2019 23:00
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36008612)
I'd say the currency collapse is a reality, not a wet dream.
Correct.

Damien 03-09-2019 23:02
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
There is a chance that Dominic Cummings' approach to politics doesn't work when it comes to campaigns based on a group that needs to exist past a single election. The withdrawing of the whip and the aggressive approach to the party.

This is from Tim Shipman who is a Times Political Reporter and one of the best reporters on Brexit having written two authoritive books on the referendum and the subsequent May-called election: https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/...38852200976384

Quote:
The mood has certainly shifted in Westminster. I’ve had three texts from Team May contacts today who appear to be enjoying the corner into which the prime minister has backed himself. Two weeks ago they were looking enviously at a government with a plan bossing the news agenda
Don't forget today Boris Johnson has lost his majority and it about to expel up to a dozen MPs. I might, likely am, wrong here but remember a referendum over a couple of months is an entirely different proposition to managing party politics.

Dave42 03-09-2019 23:12
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
government loses vote by majority of 27

Damien 03-09-2019 23:15
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
More rebels than expected.

---------- Post added at 22:15 ---------- Previous post was at 22:13 ----------

Labour looks to be refusing to allow the election until the No Deal bill goes though

Pierre 03-09-2019 23:21
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008645)
IT Project Management was part of my career - I have been an IT Director, IT Programme Manager, Head of Programme Management , Head of Portfolio Management, and Head of Technology for a multi-billion pound company, and have been an active part of the negotiations for programmes that were 10s of millions of pounds; these had teams involved in the negotiations of dozens of people, supported by Subject Matter Experts and teams.
whooo! Get you. This is Cable Forum, not Linked In, did you copy and post that?

I’d give you a job. Make sure post something inspirational too.

Quote:
The complexity involved in negotiating deals for thousands of different tracks that Brexit involves would be vastly more than any I was involved in, and I recognise this - you think it could be done by 1 person.
Ok I was being facetious, but May’s team was ineffective.

In my humble career, I have been involved in several negotiations, admittedly only worth millions not billions. I am not a negotiator, I am one of the SME’s that you mention. But in each case the whole team has been no bigger 4-5, and that consisted of the negotiator, the SME, the Lawyer and 2no. Money men.

Quote:
How many negotiations involving 10s of millions have you been involved?
As above, not 10’s of millions no. Just a few million at best.

Best one was a mediation, to avoid a court situation and that involved just 3 of us. SME, Lawyer and Accountant. Settled for a few million. Sorry if that’s not big enough in the trouser dept for you.

Quote:
Re your iPad example - Apple don’t discount on new iPads;
like that was part of my point.

For a multi-million pound negotiator- you don’t come across as that switched on - if you don’t mind me saying.

jfman 03-09-2019 23:26
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Pierre has had enough of experts!

Damien 03-09-2019 23:30
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
The following Tory MPs look no longer to be Tory MPs:

- Guto Bebb
- Richard Benyon
- Steve Brine
- Alistair Burt
- Greg Clarke
- Ken Clarke
- David Gauke
- Justine Greening
- Dominic Grieve
- Sam Gymiah
- Philip Hammond
- Stephen Hammond
- Richard Harrington
- Margot James
- Oliver Letwin
- Anne Milton
- Caroline Noakes
- Antionette Sandbach
- Sir Nicholas Soames
- Rory Stewart
- Ed Vaizey

Pierre 03-09-2019 23:33
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36008660)
Pierre has had enough of experts!
I think i’m Going to put myself out there, as one.

Damien 03-09-2019 23:34
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Although now looks like they'll Remain? Leadsom has said they can stay if they vote for an election. Looks like they called Boris' bluff.

Pierre 03-09-2019 23:36
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36008661)
The following Tory MPs look no longer to be Tory MPs:

- Guto Bebb
- Richard Benyon
- Steve Brine
- Alistair Burt
- Greg Clarke
- Ken Clarke
- David Gauke
- Justine Greening
- Dominic Grieve
- Sam Gymiah
- Philip Hammond
- Stephen Hammond
- Richard Harrington
- Margot James
- Oliver Letwin
- Anne Milton
- Caroline Noakes
- Antionette Sandbach
- Sir Nicholas Soames
- Rory Stewart
- Ed Vaizey
Election required.

If Corbyn doesn’t go for it, he’s a jockey of the order of the knob.

But why would that surprise you?

Chris 03-09-2019 23:40
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008668)
Election required.

If Corbyn doesn’t go for it, he’s a jockey of the order of the knob.

But why would that surprise you?
I’m surprised you still require evidence before admitting Jezza to that ancient and noble order.

Damien 03-09-2019 23:44
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
It's tactics in the end. He knows as well as anyway that these are the circumstances in which Boris Johnson wants to call an election. He is probably wary of that.

---------- Post added at 22:44 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

No 10 confirms those MPs will have the whip withdrawn. Philip Hammond, Ken Clarke, Nicholas Soames, Rory Stewart and Oliver Letwin are no longer Tory MPs along with 16 more.

Chris 03-09-2019 23:52
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
The absurd dog’s breakfast that is the Fixed Term Parliament Act has got to go. In any other time, a defeat like this (or the sudden loss of a working majority) would rightly have been construed as a confidence issue and any previous PM would have been perfectly correct to call an immediate election. Amidst all the breathless claims about the death of democracy, the democrats seem to have forgotten that just about the oldest convention of them all is that parliament lets the government govern. It does not attempt to control the normal process of government via statute and it does not attempt to keep a government in place that can no longer function.

Carth 04-09-2019 00:20
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
I don't 'do' politics, so freely admit that much of the aforementioned stuff is well over my head and beyond comprehension.

What I do understand though, is that they're all backstabbing and shuffling about forming cliques instead of sitting down and discussing how to get the deal they all want so much . .

I'll go as far as saying it's akin to trade unions of the 70's :shocked:

Hom3r 04-09-2019 08:17
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
The trouble is most MPs don't want a deal because they want to remain. So the also reject the default no deal.

They also don't want a GE as they know full well we will routed from parliament.

ianch99 04-09-2019 09:20
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008657)
In my humble career, I have been involved in several negotiations, admittedly only worth millions not billions. I am not a negotiator, I am one of the SME’s that you mention. But in each case the whole team has been no bigger 4-5, and that consisted of the negotiator, the SME, the Lawyer and 2no. Money men.


As above, not 10’s of millions no. Just a few million at best.

Best one was a mediation, to avoid a court situation and that involved just 3 of us. SME, Lawyer and Accountant. Settled for a few million. Sorry if that’s not big enough in the trouser dept for you.

like that was part of my point.

For a multi-million pound negotiator- you don’t come across as that switched on - if you don’t mind me saying.
I've negotiated some money off my utility bills, does this count? :)

jfman 04-09-2019 09:30
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36008685)
I've negotiated some money off my utility bills, does this count? :)
A success story of the one man negotiating team, only because you believed in what was possible.

ianch99 04-09-2019 09:33
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
From BBC's Nick Robinson:

Quote:
Not long ago @jeremycorbyn faced a crisis trapped between Remainers & Leavers and was shunned by other opposition parties. Now he’s able to stand up for democracy, work with a cross-party alliance & appear statesmanlike. Is that what people mean by No 10’s new strategic genius?
Johnson is making Corbyn look good! Says it all really .. The new Tory Momentum-esque playbook they have stolen from Labour is not working out too well from them so far. At this rate, they will be rebranding themselves as New UKIP :)

I applaud the 21 Tory MP's who put Country before Party. I thought the age of principles in politics had passed. They went through the due diligence and asked Johnson face-to-face if he had anything to offer as a deal and if he had made any progress in the backstop alternative and they concluded, correctly as Cummins himself confirmed, the whole negotiation line is a sham.

What this does imply is that unless Johnson does the No Deal election pact with the devil (Farage), the Tories will be very vulnerable in seats where Tory voters are more moderately aligned. If you then throw in possible opposition party collaboration then a Tory majority is not assured.

---------- Post added at 08:33 ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36008690)
A success story of the one man negotiating team, only because you believed in what was possible.
Nah, I did it because I am half Scottish .. :)

Pierre 04-09-2019 09:39
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36008685)
I've negotiated some money off my utility bills, does this count? :)
Absolutely

denphone 04-09-2019 10:07
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36008692)
.

What this does imply is that unless Johnson does the No Deal election pact with the devil (Farage), the Tories will be very vulnerable in seats where Tory voters are more moderately aligned. If you then throw in possible opposition party collaboration then a Tory majority is not assured.
Nothing is ever sure about any result of a general election , Just ask Winston Churchill who is Britains most popular leader ever who won the war but could not win the hearts and minds of the electorate.

OLD BOY 04-09-2019 10:31
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36008635)
With this though....

I am a Remainer and I wanted May's Deal to pass. It wasn't perfect at all and much of it left me unhappy. It wasn't EEA for example.

But it wasn't No Deal. It gave us a two year period to get something else in place, and we'll eventually have to deal with the EU first anyway, and it gave some degree of confidence to the country. It helps us move on a bit too.

I hope Boris Johnson gets some, even cosmetic, details on the backstop that gets the deal though.
That's right, and it was on the basis that after those two years we would have a trade deal more to our liking that I supported it - until the backstop reared it's ugly head as the 'solution' to a manufactured problem.

I am not too concerned about the opposition getting a law through to ban a no deal because I fully expect Boris to be able to win the election with a comfortable majority. He is a popular politician and will win over a significant number of voters who would not have voted for the last two Tory leaders.

Assuming he does get in with a workable majority and no turncoats in his number, he will be able to withdraw the 'no to no deal' legislation with his new found majority.

pip08456 04-09-2019 11:23
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Scottish court decision.

The prorogation of parliament by the Prime Minister is not a matter for the courts.

jfman 04-09-2019 11:30
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
It was always going to be appealed either way.

Chris 04-09-2019 11:31
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Of course it isn’t. It’s a matter for the Queen, on advice from her Prime Minister, whose judgement is itself judged by those who support him in parliament, whose judgement is in turn judged by the electorate.

Not that I expect the self-important lot who brought the action to leave it there. It is going to end up in the Supreme Court no matter what.

pip08456 04-09-2019 11:33
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36008713)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Of course it isn’t. It’s a matter for the Queen, on advice from her Prime Minister, whose judgement is itself judged by those who support him in parliament, whose judgement is in turn judged by the electorate.

Not that I expect the self-important lot who brought the action to leave it there. It is going to end up in the Supreme Court no matter what.
Maybe but the answer will be the same.

Chris 04-09-2019 11:37
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36008714)
Maybe but the answer will be the same.
I suspect so. The case was heard by the most senior judge in Scotland, not some jobbing circuit Recorder, anxious to just get it off his desk ASAP.

His judgement is that it is a question for the electorate, and also that the government has not broken any law.

nomadking 04-09-2019 15:21
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
North Korea will soon announce of new system of full democracy. Voters can vote what ever way they want, but if North Korean leader Kim Jong-un doesn't agree with the result, it is overturned and not allowed. In the US the Democrats seem to also want that system.

Pierre 04-09-2019 16:12
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36008734)
North Korea will soon announce of new system of full democracy. Voters can vote what ever way they want, but if North Korean leader Kim Jong-un doesn't agree with the result, it is overturned and not allowed. In the US the Democrats seem to also want that system.
It is quite amazing that we are now virtually a tin pot dictatorship.

And all those dictators that were demanding democracy and an election 5 mins ago, now no longer wish to give one to us.

1andrew1 04-09-2019 17:27
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36008734)
North Korea will soon announce of new system of full democracy. Voters can vote what ever way they want, but if North Korean leader Kim Jong-un doesn't agree with the result, it is overturned and not allowed. In the US the Democrats seem to also want that system.
Don't give Cummings any ideas. ;)

Gavin78 04-09-2019 17:59
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
I'm waiting for the general election when boris gets back in and then the crazy people can all stand up in arms and protest that it wasn't a fair result and they want another one because it's not what they voted for.

nomadking 04-09-2019 18:03
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36008742)
Don't give Cummings any ideas. ;)
He's not the one determined to overthrrow the democratic referendum vote.

Dave42 04-09-2019 18:23
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Theo Usherwood

@theousherwood
·
48s


Legislation to force Boris Johnson back to Brussels to delay Brexit until January 31st clears second reading:

Ayes: 329

Noes: 300

Rebel majority: 29

Another Conservative MP rebels? If so, somebody else can expect to lose the whip.

denphone 04-09-2019 18:27
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36008750)
Theo Usherwood

@theousherwood
·
48s


Legislation to force Boris Johnson back to Brussels to delay Brexit until January 31st clears second reading:

Ayes: 329

Noes: 300

Rebel majority: 29

Another Conservative MP rebels? If so, somebody else can expect to lose the whip.

Caroline Spelman, who voted with the government yesterday...

pip08456 04-09-2019 18:37
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Bank of England: No-deal Brexit not as bad as we predicted

Quote:
While he warned that there would still be an economic impact, with food bills likely to rise, Mr Carney said preparations for no-deal since the end of last year had informed the improved picture.

These include work undertaken at Dover and Calais to reduce disruption to cross-Channel trade, the government's proposed tariff regime, and work to reduce disruption in the financial markets.

Chris 04-09-2019 18:41
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
In other words, now it looks like it’s going to happen and there’s little point continuing Project Fear, they want to try to put on record a prediction that’s probably closer to the truth, in the hope that everyone remembers that prediction and not the blood-curdling nonsense they’ve been putting out for the last 3 years.

jfman 04-09-2019 19:43
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Boris proposed to the 1922 Committee an all Ireland agrifood zone. Haha.

richard s 04-09-2019 20:18
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
I think the title of this thread should be changed: Boris Forms a Government... Ha, Ha, Ha.

Hugh 04-09-2019 20:23
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36008755)
Quote:
Governor Mark Carney told the Treasury select committee that the Bank now believes GDP will fall by 5.5% in the worst-case scenario following a no-deal Brexit - less than the 8% contraction it predicted last November.

The Bank's revised assessment also says unemployment could increase by 7% and inflation may peak at 5.25% if the UK leaves the European Union without a deal.
Good news!!!

pip08456 04-09-2019 20:25
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008763)
Good news!!!
Yes it is and note those figures are worst case scenario.

Carth 04-09-2019 20:39
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Given the way they calculate how many (few) hours a week you need to work in order to qualify as 'employed', I doubt very much that the unemployment figures will rise to anything that comes remotely near 7% . . . unless they decide to move the goalposts again for . . . reasons :rolleyes:


oh, and two words to note in one of the quotes above are: MAY and PEAK . . . which actually leaves a big area below that

pip08456 04-09-2019 20:47
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36008772)
Given the way they calculate how many (few) hours a week you need to work in order to qualify as 'employed', I doubt very much that the unemployment figures will rise to anything that comes remotely near 7% . . . unless they decide to move the goalposts again for . . . reasons :rolleyes:


oh, and two words to note in one of the quotes above are: MAY and PEAK . . . which actually leaves a big area below that
You missed out COULD.

nomadking 04-09-2019 20:51
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36008772)
Given the way they calculate how many (few) hours a week you need to work in order to qualify as 'employed', I doubt very much that the unemployment figures will rise to anything that comes remotely near 7% . . . unless they decide to move the goalposts again for . . . reasons :rolleyes:


oh, and two words to note in one of the quotes above are: MAY and PEAK . . . which actually leaves a big area below that
The unemployment figures are calculated using international standards.
Link

Quote:
This approach has wide international acceptance, including by the International Labour Organisation (ILO).
Quit with the fake news.

Hugh 04-09-2019 20:54
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36008776)
The unemployment figures are calculated using international standards.
Link

Quit with the fake news.
From your link.
Quote:
3. Employment

The number of people in employment in the UK is measured by the Labour Force Survey (LFS) and consists of people aged 16 years and over who did one hour or more of paid work per week

Carth 04-09-2019 20:56
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Thankyou Hugh ;)

nomadking 04-09-2019 21:07
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008777)
From your link.
Because otherwise they are meant to be in education. Labour raised the normal school leaving age to 18. So they would rarely be included in the unemployment figures, which is what Carth had been whinging about.
Link
Quote:
England
You can leave school on the last Friday in June if you’ll be 16 by the end of the summer holidays.
You must then do one of the following until you’re 18:
  • stay in full-time education, for example at a college
  • start an apprenticeship or traineeship
  • spend 20 hours or more a week working or volunteering, while in part-time education or training

1andrew1 04-09-2019 21:09
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36008777)
From your link.
Pretty sure that the one hour a week definition is to make sure those like Rees-Mogg get included as employed. :D
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49578400

Pierre 04-09-2019 21:10
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Well Parliament have killed any negotiations for any kind of deal.

No doubt they’ll decline a General Election too.

Which achieves what, exactly?

Proof that Parliament is arrogant and believes it is above the people from which it garners its executive power.

Whenever the election is, the forgotten 17.4 million people that have been ignored, will speak again, no doubt.

Carth 04-09-2019 21:13
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36008780)
Because otherwise they are meant to be in education. Labour raised the normal school leaving age to 18. So they would rarely be included in the unemployment figures, which is what Carth had been whinging about.
Link

hmm, I'm pretty sure . . no I'm definite . . that that wasn't what I was 'whinging' about

but you carry on mate :p:

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008783)
Whenever the election is, the forgotten 17.4 million people that have been ignored, will speak again, no doubt.
especially those in strong 'leave' areas who have just been shafted by their local (labour) representative :D

nomadking 04-09-2019 21:21
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36008772)
Given the way they calculate how many (few) hours a week you need to work in order to qualify as 'employed', I doubt very much that the unemployment figures will rise to anything that comes remotely near 7% . . . unless they decide to move the goalposts again for . . . reasons :rolleyes:


oh, and two words to note in one of the quotes above are: MAY and PEAK . . . which actually leaves a big area below that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36008784)
hmm, I'm pretty sure . . no I'm definite . . that that wasn't what I was 'whinging' about

but you carry on mate :p:

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------



especially those in strong 'leave' areas who have just been shafted by their local (labour) representative :D
Uses the same rules and criteria as around the world.

Carth 04-09-2019 21:27
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Go on then, post the figures relating to zero hour contracts :rolleyes:

1andrew1 04-09-2019 21:35
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36008783)
Well Parliament have killed any negotiations for any kind of deal.

No doubt they’ll decline a General Election too.

Which achieves what, exactly?

Proof that Parliament is arrogant and believes it is above the people from which it garners its executive power.

Whenever the election is, the forgotten 17.4 million people that have been ignored, will speak again, no doubt.
The 17.4 million didn't vote for no-deal, as Michael Gove reminded us. They voted for a deal so now it's time Boris re-employed all the deal-makers he laid off and finally starts making an effort to get a deal and not looking for others to blame for a change.

Carth 04-09-2019 21:40
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36008790)
The 17.4 million didn't vote for no-deal . .
Speculation again, but if that's what it takes then there will be quite a few happy to accept it ;)

Pierre 04-09-2019 21:42
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36008790)
The 17.4 million didn't vote for no-deal
Go and put your head in the fridge.

We’ll see what the nation think of this, as when we get an election. I doubt it will be pretty.


Quote:
as Michael Gove reminded us. They voted for a deal so now it's time Boris re-employed all the deal-makers he laid off and finally starts making an effort to get a deal and not looking for others to blame for a change.
Why, totally pointless. If I was Boris if there is to be no election, i’d Go on holiday until Jan 30th.

nomadking 04-09-2019 21:43
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36008789)
Go on then, post the figures relating to zero hour contracts :rolleyes:
Zero hour contracts started under Labour, after the minimum wage laws, and were effectively there in a different form before then. It was called casual work.
Central to it all is:- Link

Quote:
This definition is used by most other countries, by the Statistical Office of the European Union (Eurostat), and by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.
The rules haven't changed, and aren't going to change. Your suggestion that any post-brexit rise in unemployment would end up being hidden, is completely baseless and false.

Carth 04-09-2019 21:48
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36008793)
Your suggestion that any post-brexit rise in unemployment would end up being hidden, is completely baseless and false.

nope, not what I suggested either.

Feel free to keep guessing though :D

nomadking 04-09-2019 21:52
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36008790)
The 17.4 million didn't vote for no-deal, as Michael Gove reminded us. They voted for a deal so now it's time Boris re-employed all the deal-makers he laid off and finally starts making an effort to get a deal and not looking for others to blame for a change.
They definitely didn't vote for Remain. That cannot be denied.

There isn't a deal on the table, and why should we simply be forced to accept whatever the EU decides to offer us?


Imagine a trade union dispute, where the union says to the employer "we'll accept whatever you choose to offer", and the reply comes back "what about a 20% pay cut", and the union is forced to say yes to that. Then also imagine that prior to the dispute the union said that they would never go on strike or work to rule or anything like that. That is effectively what May and the Remainers have said to the EU. That is why the EU is being obstructive. They know the Remainers are on their side.

1andrew1 04-09-2019 21:53
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36008791)
Speculation again, but if that's what it takes then there will be quite a few happy to accept it ;)
Not speculating, am quoting Government Minister Michael Gove.
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-02/...en-from-space/

Pierre 04-09-2019 21:56
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36008797)

Imagine a trade union dispute, where the union says to the employer "we'll accept whatever you choose to offer", and the reply comes back "what about a 20% pay cut", and the union is forced to say yes to that. Then also imagine that prior to the dispute the union said that they would never go on strike or work to rule or anything like that. That is effectively what May and the Remainers have said to the EU. That is why the EU is being obstructive. They know the Remainers are on their side.
Indeed, it’s a joke.

I hope BoJo finds a way to circumnavigate this undemocratic and handicapping half arsed legislation.

nomadking 04-09-2019 21:58
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36008795)
nope, not what I suggested either.

Feel free to keep guessing though :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36008772)
Given the way they calculate how many (few) hours a week you need to work in order to qualify as 'employed', I doubt very much that the unemployment figures will rise to anything that comes remotely near 7% . . . unless they decide to move the goalposts again for . . . reasons :rolleyes:


oh, and two words to note in one of the quotes above are: MAY and PEAK . . . which actually leaves a big area below that
So what else is the highlighted bit referring to? Especially the :rolleyes: at the end. You are clearly suggesting that the unemployment figures won't rise to "remotely near 7%", because the figures will be fiddled(ie " they decide to move the goalposts").


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