Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Hostility based on his refusal to bake a cake on his religious beliefs. I will stick to what I originally said thanks.

They can refuse to serve anybody they choose - They can close early, shut their doors if they desire and refuse entry, so yes they can refuse service, there is a ways and means.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

He doesn't seem to have used those means though. We'll have to see what happens now. I am not sure how far he can push the religious beliefs defence, if it gets you off from discrimination against transgender people then you can use it for anything.

All sides seem to be wanting this fight though. They picked him intentionally, he knew refusing to bake it would go down this road. They're willing participants in a culture war.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I think this is something the Supreme court need to rule on.

I am non-religious but I respect anyone else's belief and would not expect anyone to do anything they objected to on religious grounds.

Personally I have many friends in the LGBT community and treat them no different than any of my other friends, quite often enjoying a laugh at each other's expense.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

But the question is how far can religious belief be used to deny others service? Also who decides if something is a legitimate religious issue? For example I didn’t really think that transgender issues were that much of an issue in Christianity.

It might be an idea for this guy to stop baking custom cakes anyway if he has this many issues with it. This issue has always been a bit of an outlier since it involves the creation of something through.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

FAKE NEWS CNN thinks it has every right to the names and addresses of the Manafort Jurors. They have filed a lawsuit against government for their details.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/17/...anafort-jurors

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Not just CNN - I think they’re all wrong in doing this..

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Juries don't tend to be anonymous in the US. The idea being that everyone should be able to seen justice being done including those who decide. In this case there is an exception because of the high-profile nature of the case and threats being directed at the judge and jury. I think the media are trying to get a compromise so they can see the names.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

After the case has been concluded, ordinarily!

Not while the trial is active / in deliberation of all phases.

You then get into Jury nullification / intimidation etc combined with tampering with the pool etc (depending on status of sequestration etc).

Media screwed up, yet again.

Also when they come forward, they waive their own anonymity of their own volition, not because they were outed!!!

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

In this case there is a real danger to the jurors. The media (in particular the bloc that coordinated with the Clinton campaign through Podesta) have raised the level of political vitriol to a level I have never seen before. Add in a little social media insanity, season with self righteous "investigative reporting" and you've got the recipe for disaster. Even though this trial really has nothing to do with Trump the media has dragged it into that cesspool and the participants are at risk.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

There is nothing to say the Judge wouldn't have named them after the trial was finished had he accepted the motion.

https://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-la...juror-names-an

https://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-la...entifying-jury

It's not uncommon.

This was a routine attempt to make the list known and the judge rejected on security fears. If you Google around you see the media has many examples of these petitions which sometimes are granted and sometimes not.

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------

It wasn't the left who caused a guy to walk into a pizza place with a gun because of conspiracies he saw. The internet is full of nasty, angry people irrespective of the political divide they are on.

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------

It wasn't the left who caused a guy to walk into a pizza place with a gun because of conspiracies he saw. The internet is full of nasty, angry people irrespective of the political divide they are on.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

The Ronald Reagan appointed Judge in the Manafort trial, T.S Ellis has received death threats, this is how far and unhinged some have become on the left - this case has absolutely nothing to do with Russian collusion, Manafort is being tried on some historical alleged tax fraud crimes... and he the Judge in the case is getting threats to the point he is now requiring Federal protection. This is utterly bloody sad.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I can’t find any sources that say the threats to the judge are from the ‘left’- do you have any links, please?

All the (numerous) links I have found just say "threats", with no specific group mentioned.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/17/judg...hreatened.html

https://nypost.com/2018/08/17/manafo...-jurors-names/

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...hreats-n901731

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...over-case.html

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Exactly - after! He chose not through the trial and what did the media do? Try find out, anyway.

That is disgraceful.

It's not uncommon to request the information. It is to refuse the answer being "no".

Oh totally - but once the request has been rejected that is usually it. He was correct to refuse the request (or at least it was totally his prerogative), the press and everyone else need to respect that instead of putting more pressure on the judge / jurors etc.

If, (and only if ) the judge decides to unseal at the end of the trial that is his prerogative. That is all there is to it unless upon appeal the information is disclosed. Juror's are free to do as they please at the end of the trial.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

What? He said no after they made the motion.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

They're still digging to get what they can though...they can't seem to leave it alone for whatever reason. I don't even see the point - they're (the jury that is) going to come back with guilty verdicts.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Come on Hugh - this is the Clinton News Networks in America (Predominantly left leaning) they are not going to blame their own side for the threats now are they.

The Conservatives on the right, are not going to threaten a Conservative Judge.

Some of the left have shown themselves to be psychotic... they are capable of such a thing.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

All we have is what the Judge says which have been reported by a wide range of outlets.

It's also feasible that Trump fans who believe this is rigged would send threats to the judge just as it's feasible anti-Trump people will threaten him on the risk Manafort is not guilt. Some on the right have shown themselves to be psychotic too.

We just don't know. We might as well wait to see if we ever do.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I didn't say it was "the left". I said it was the media. Granted, a lot of the media leans politically to the left but what we are seeing is the result of a media (social as well as broadcast) driven political frenzy.

We've got a lot of people today who are drawn to media like moths to a flame. The can't get enough of the intrigue and drama that's being spread. That happens on both sides. Media figured out a long time ago that appeals to emotion draw viewers and their advertisers tend to like viewer numbers. Therefore we have "news" media that spends less time telling the story and more time telling stories about the story.

The problem is that some people can't handle the drama. They get overwhelmed and do horrible things. Sometimes they shoot up a pizza parlor and sometimes they shoot up a congressional baseball practice. The jurors in this case are at risk from fanatics from both political ideologies.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

So a few days ago, Peter Strzok was fired by the FBI (just like McCabe) and even though this is not "materially" relevant to the 2016 election probe (as he had been re-assigned before hand) I think that it is pertinent to show a clear pattern of bad behavior from those investigating...in fact his behavior pre dates the issue of counsel in fact. Clearly Muller will be disappointed ; he has a very tight ship but somehow / some way along the line his professionalism has come under fire from the presence of the likes of Strzok etc.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45173015

There is some dispute as to whether or not the agency followed protocol or not:

Now clearly his own attorney is not an unbiased enough source ; he is clearly going to side with strzok but this does break rank with Christopher Wray's statement upon confirmation regarding personnel matters. (Regular order etc)

Of course the main ethical issue at hand (and most notable case) in the public eye, was of course his affair with Lisa Page, seen here:


https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/08/12.jpg

The texts between the two and their apparent conspiring in trying to stop Trump is what the death nail was for well...Peter anyway:
Page has subsequently been sent elsewhere since McCabe was fired so that is now adding to the tally of folks with bad behavior through the probe. (And what has been revealed as a consequence).

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Fox News is left leaning?

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------

Strange how no one focuses on the Republican bias in the New York FBI office when active and retired FBI officers which fed Guilani information leading up to the election.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1JE2ZH

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Let's not forget the prime originator of this environment. Trump, with his social media narrative of alternative truth and media condemnation sets the scene for the new levels of vitriol as you put it.

If you put out a narrative that ignores and twists reality then you will end up with a new set of rules.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

That proves nothing. The Democrats are the ones here, who colluded with Russian folk via Fusion GPS and Steele. The Corrupted DNC and Crooked Hillary paid for the Fake Russian Dossier. Then the Obama DOJ tried to stop a Trump Presidency, with Strzok’s ‘insurance policy’ and ‘we’ll stop him.” text when asked by his lover if Trump will ever become President.

President Obama appears to lie on national tv, saying he does not speak to the FBI on any pending cases. period, yet there is text messages, from Strzok saying he wants to know everything he’s doing.

A second special prosecutor is required and the current one investigating the DNC Hoax and political witch hunt, needs to be fired.

And you know exactly what news organisations are left leaning that I was on about. I stand by my assertion that it’s folk on the left who are threatening the Judge.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Mick if Trump ever did commit crimes how would you ever know since you’re angry when either the media or the justice system ever investigates him or his allies? Whilst at the same time want to investigate his political opponents and sue media organisations that are perceived to be hostile to him. It’s tinpot dictator stuff this.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Investigations that have so far indicated Trump in absolute no indication of Collusion with the Russians. It is a witch hunt manufactured by the Fake News Media and Hillary and the DNC, evidence exists of their wrong doing, why are they not being investigated?

This is not tin pot dictator stuff - it's very easy to dismiss the potential crimes, Hillary has partaken in here when you wanted her to be the President. She was cleared when obvious statutes were violated, any other person would have been incarcerated, with just half the stuff she's got away with.

Classified emails being found on the laptop of her aides husband, is this tin pot stuff ?

No it is not. That is mishandling of classified material which is federal crime, the buck stops with Crooked Hillary, as to why those emails were found to be in possession of an unauthorised person. Several Statutes violated here...

Meanwhile, a Navy Sailor takes photos of classified areas of a submarine and is indicted on unlawful retention of national defense information. In May 2016, he pleaded guilty to the crime. In August 2016, U.S. District Judge Stefan Underhill sentenced Kristian Saucier to one year in federal prison. He was discharged from the Navy, was released from prison last year, but his criminal conviction remained, he was unable to rejoin the Navy because of this and he lost benefits he would have been entitled to.

He committed a stupid act, but was dealt with harshly, that's when President Trump came along and saw the total pathetic injustice or lack of, of Crooked Hillary and her classified emails being unlawfully retained by an unauthorised person but getting away with it and just being labelled careless, and decided to issue a Full Pardon to Saucier.

By the way - In July 2018 Saucier has filed a lawsuit against former President Barack Obama, former FBI Director James Comey, former Attorney General Loretta Lynch, former FBI Director Andrew McCabe, and others. Saucier alleges that other sailors committed violations similar to his, but weren't criminally charged or discharged from service. He also claims that a double standard exists that protected Crooked Hillary Clinton in her email controversy, but not him. Saucier is seeking $20 million in damages. He is representing himself in this lawsuit.

Good for him. No-one is above the law, including the Clintons.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

We don’t decide guilt based on what we’ve read in the papers or Twitter. If Trump hasn’t done anything wrong then there will be no charges, Manafort might well be found not guilty given the time the jury is taking.

However it’s for investigators and courts to decide these things.

Also what’s with the crooked Hiliary stuff again?

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I haven't read the information on twitter or the papers, this is information in Testimonies of Congressional Sessions and or in official reports.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

None of the media reports state who or where the threats came from.

Claiming it's left or right is just guessing.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Sorry, I had no clue that this was even an issue. All that being said, the article is over 2 months old and I am yet to hear anything on it all. (Quick search showed nothing).

Let's say worse case scenario they leaked info to Rudy...no way is that as bad as Page and Strzok, given that they are both (at the time) active career FBI agents and Rudy had retired.

Also even if they had been feeding him info no way were they trying to change the outcome the way those two tried.

Oh, and one other thing....the guy heading up that office at the time was none other than this guy:

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/08/14.jpg
If there were leaks coming out of that office, we all know who is to blame. Guess who fired him Hugh?

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

It’s mooted that the reason Comey stated, just before the election, that the Clinton email case was being re-opened, was due to the fact the NY agents (active and retired) were going to leak the information about the emails on Weiner’s laptop, and if he hadn’t said anything, Comey would have been accused of suppressing information that could have impacted the election (and of course, having a press conference less than two weeks before the election had no impact whatsoever...)

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

In some ways I think Comey was screwed either way, but in that sense he is one of the best FBI directors in history IMO.

The one thing that is forever forgotten is the fact that the reason the entire thing was re-opened was because Anthony Weiner is a sex offender hooking up with underage girls!

None of that was Comey's fault and re-opening the investigation made not one iota of difference to the outcome.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I think we’ll have to agree to differ on that last point...

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Possibly - I will never back off the fact that Comey / the re-opening of the case had anything to do with the result.

This was the prediction (on those said WN states) that Trump carried:

www.elite-politics.com/showthread.php?403-Quinnipiac-poll-numbers-is-Trump-set-to-rise-to-the-finish-line

I haven't got it in me to go through every single chart and graphic that I cited but Quinnipiac had the result (every state), pegged accurately...months before the vote. Months before Comey.

In fact, WI was not even included in the poll as it was such slam dunk for Trump. That all had nothing to do with Comey / re-opening the investigation / Weiner etc.

Hillary lost on the merits and see as blaming Comey has been fruitless, she now blames Russia.

The only time I goaded a nationalist within the time frame of Comey's re-opening of the case was this:

http://www.elite-politics.com/showth...ull=1#post7578

This is what I wrote:

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I did some quick research and there are a number of articles that provide persuasive evidence that you are not correct on this. Here's one:

4 pieces of evidence showing FBI Director James Comey cost Clinton the election

There are other articles that disagree (as you do) but from what I have read, I think Comey did indeed make the crucial difference.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

From Jim Wright @stonekettlestation

Supporting info

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...anafort-guilty

http://thehill.com/regulation/admini...ederal-charges MAGA - My Attorney Got Arrested

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Manafort found guilty on 8 charges, jury failed to reach a decision on another 10.

But that news lasted less an a hour since Cohen has plead guilty to breaking campaign finance laws and said he acted ‘at the request of the candidate’. He has thrown Trump under the bus there: https://twitter.com/h_alexander/stat...10904249028609

---------- Post added at 23:02 ---------- Previous post was at 22:54 ----------

I wonder if Trump knew this was coming since the talk of firing Muller has been louder recently.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

No, look I don't agree with this one bit purely because the polls I cited carried all the way through election day and predated all the Comey hysteria.

What I predicted, was about 2 months before Comey - based on polling from May ; what Comey did was a week out from the election yet the results were exactly what the polling suggested. Comey had no effect.

There isn't one thing that anyone can say that will ever convince me that James Comey swung this election. I can't stand Anthony Weiner but I wouldn't even go as far as to say that he had anything to do with it - but if it was somebody's fault that the case was re-opened (which in no way effected the race) then the logical step would be to look at the convicted sex offender, no?

James Comey had nothing to do with this election, in any way shape or form.

Nor did the sex offender in Weiner.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Interesting times. Trump's pigeons are certainly coming home to roost.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I need to explain about that "gay whoring" comment in a bit more detail. I'll go find the post and make a reply - explain the other half of the reason that I took a month+ off the site. It wasn't fair to use such abrasive language, just to make a point (just because I knew that I was correct - I could have used more conciliatory language which was much easier explained with legal definitions) and I used a more "in your face" sort of rhetoric. (As I already knew that I was correct).

In regards to this specific case I could go back through Hugh's posts and what not and reply but I feel like Luther would do a much better (and objective job) to explain whereas I am much more inclined to take the firebrand approach. :)

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

It won't be touching him at all - If Mueller's report reaches congress and articles of impeachment are invoked - the votes won't be there or in the Senate.

U.S would be in peril with major riots if Trump is "illegitimately" removed from office. His base remains very solid, it would be civil war.

Why should Trump feel the wrath, when Crooked Hillary has got away with so much, including the real collusion with the Russians/Steele and the fake Russian dossier that she and the corrupt DNC paid for?!?!

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Omarosa must feel like someone stole her ability to seek attention for the day by taking the headlines. All of this stuff is pretty serious (3 to 5 for Cohen is a joke) but again Trump has nominated one of the most qualified SC picks in history so let me conveniently overlook all until Kavanaugh is confirmed. :)

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

If the Democrats won control of Congress in November, could Trump be impeached? I appreciate he can't be indicted whilst in office but he has been directly implicated in a federal crime by his former personal lawyer.
Sorry. Two wrongs never make a right.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Maybe Cohen has been 'helpful' although no plea bargain....

---------- Post added at 06:30 ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 ----------

I've heard suggestions, just random internet speculation, that Mueller could keep anything under wraps until Trump is no longer President to avoid him pardoning himself or otherwise using the office to hinder it. Not sure how possible that is.

---------- Post added at 06:40 ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 ----------

Here is Ben Shapiro, a right wing commentator who is a lawyer, saying it's not 'the end' for Trump but he has to be careful: https://twitchy.com/jacobb-38/2018/0...-pardon-cohen/

and that pardoning Cohen won't work.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I honestly don't think this going to make any difference to Trumps core nutters. He could murder babies live on air and they still follow him/ have an excuse.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

The diehards will always defend the inexcusable and indefensible Mr K whether its Trump , Corbyn , etc , etc..

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Mueller will not be allowed to carry this investigation on and on. By now, Trump should rightly use his constitutional power as President and fire Mueller because it’s very obvious this was a setup from the very beginning, bent officials that had ties to funding from the Crooked Clinton’s or folk with close connections to them.

The illegitimate FISA warrant(s) with unverified sources.

The one sided liberal media who are believed to have been involved in the exposure of the Fake Dossier. It was the media which was used as an attempt to verify sources in the FISA warrant, big no no.

Mueller was tasked to investigate possible links in the Trump campaign with the Russians hacking the DNC. He hasn’t found that evidence, so as his unlimited scope is now looking for any potential crimes, even petty crimes that are being blown up to be impeachable crimes.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Agreed. These are serious crimes that cannot be brushed under the carpet so I suspect the usual media conspiracies and Mueller-must-turn-a-blind-eye-to-tax-evasion excuses to be recycled.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Do you how awful it's going to look if he fires Mueller not only after he files charges against people but some of those have been tested in court and convinced a jury? If Trump hasn't done anything wrong firing Mueller would be a huge mistake.

Trump calls it's a witch hunt but the point of those is they never found witches. A criminal investigation is a better term.



He was but his scope allowed him to investigate matters that arose from the investigation too. It essentially allows him to uncover criminality as long as that criminality arose as part of the investigation into Russia and that's what happened to Manafort. Cohen he actually referred to a different prosecutor. Even if Mueller was fired today that investigation into campaign finance could continue unabated. You would need to fire the New York Attorney's office people too.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Serious crimes?

Not.

Campaign finance violations are common.

President Obama’s campaign in 2008, was fined by for campaign finance violations. Was he impeached?

They can be dressed up as a petty crimes but to say they are serious is very far fetched.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

It wasn't a reporting violation though it was breaking the law. What Obama seemed to do is break FEC rules for how you report on donations for which the publishment is a fine. Cohen seemed to make illegal campaign contributions.

It's like saying filing late tax returns and tax evasion are 'tax violations' - one lands you with a fine the other is illegal.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

But seriously, it’s cost $20 Million + to find this petty crime?

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

If this were the sole focus then it would be a bit mad but this crime has just found during the main investigation, as I said it wasn't even prosecuted by Mueller.

Mueller's investigation has had Flynn, Manafort and Papadopoulos have pled or been found guilty for a variety of crimes.

In the end if Mueller finds nothing on Trump then fair enough. It's not a failed investigation because an investigation doesn't have to end with a conviction if nothing was found.

Put it this way if Mueller ends his investigation with Trump being in the clear surely that's better for him in 2020 than if he were to fire Mueller and have the question over his head.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Cohen did get a plea bargain.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...ml#document/p1

She tried her best yesterday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/u...rump-tape.html

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

A crime is still a crime no matter how big or small. Also that was not what the actual investigation was looking for. they just happened to find it during investigating other things,

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Great tweet

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...47043992023040

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Tax evasion is what they "get" you on in the states when they can't find anything else. ;)

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Well, they got Al Capone on that didn't they.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

What's weird is if you have committed crimes you would rather not be found out then why get involved in a US Presidential Campaign? You're exposing yourself to massive risk and people will start sniffing around. As we can see the moment any investigation happens then it all comes out. You think you would keep your head down and hope nobody looks too closely at your bank accounts and tax returns wouldn't it? Not step into a massive x-ray machine that is the US Presidency.

Same thing happened with the Clintons. They weren't even looking at the affairs when Clinton perjured himself.

---------- Post added at 16:31 ---------- Previous post was at 16:25 ----------

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45270339

Not great if your lawyer has turned into a informant! Although he isn't going to get a plea deal unless he actually has anything to offer them.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

As I already showed he already has a plea deal. 3-5yrs instead of 30yrs.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I thought that a plea in the sense that if he pleads guilty he gets a lower sentence, not a deal in the sense that if he gives up info on other crimes by other people he gets a (further) reduced sentence?

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Just to clarify - his (ex-)personal lawyer, who worked for him for 12 years, who was a Vice-President of the Trump Organisation and was his Special Counsel, is so stupid and ignorant of the law that he pled guilty to stuff that isn't even a crime?

You have to ask what kind of person would even hire a lawyer like that?

And how dumb is the Federal Judge who found Cohen guilty of something that isn’t a crime?

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Have you actually read the plea deal that I linked to signed by both him and his attourney? He has got a reduced sentence.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 17:58 ----------

What non crime did he plead guilty to?

The Federal Judge didn't find him guilty of anything, he and his attourney signed the plea agreement on the basis he was in fact guilty.

I suggest you also read the plea deal I linked to earlier. Especially paragraph 2 page 6.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Well, yeah he was some pathetic little taxi firm owner who was playing the "I am lawyer card". To such an extent that even Trump called him a "fixer". He was nothing more than some little jackboot who ran his mouth and through the race for President, insulted everyone.

Now ever Republican will remember every name that he called them.

The same kind of guy who hired someone like Omar...ahh forget it.

He didn't, he accepted a guilty plea. Totally different.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

To be clear, the judge didn't find Cohen guilty of anything. He merely accepted a plea between Cohen and the prosecution.

---------- Post added at 18:44 ---------- Previous post was at 18:36 ----------

His plea doesn't exactly mean he's guilty. Plea agreements are made all the time for reasons other than guilt. The most common reason for accepting a plea is to limit the potential for a more harsh sentence.

In this particular case the plea has all the hallmarks of a political ploy.

Cohen was likely up to his eyeballs in tax problems and looking at 60 years just on those. If the deal was that he'd get the reduced sentence as long as he confessed to something they might be able to use against Trump (and wouldn't have to prosecute) then the prosecution got what they were looking for.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

If you fire the guy investigating your campaign there is such a possible conflict of interest that it would almost instantly warrant and OoJ charge. (Probably rightly so).

Given the questions surrounding Kavanaugh's work on the Starr counsel the last thing we need at confirmation are questions on the termination of an independent counsel.

Trump is not the target, though. Then again, a blue dress and cigar were not fundamental to the target of Whitewater though, were they? This is what happens with IC's. They start off with one thing and go end up God only know where.

They are defined as being the civilian / law enforcement equivalent of mission creep.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Yeah but that’s just an agreement that he pleads guilty for a reduced sentence. Not for giving information to help with another case as far as I can see?

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

The thing is, those jurors were clear on the (obvious) guilt of Manafort on the charges that they found guilt on almost instantly...the delay was on the ones determined to be deadlocked which they had a mistrial over.

Basically the way that juries end up is that they get hardened beyond all reason and just hunker down in their positions.

There is no budging at that point, on the rest.

The government should re-try the counts and then comes the second trial. If sentences run concurrent (assuming that he is found guilty in the second trial) this will put him away for the rest of his life.

There is no indication that Trump would pardon him yet.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Yeah I've say on a jury before and hated it. Judge wanted a unanimous decision there too.

I don't think the government will retry the other cases. They got enough to put him to jail for life and there is another, more serious, case to come.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Trump is ABSOLUTELY the target of these investigations. Neither Manafort nor Cohen would have been approached if not for their association with Trump. From the very beginning this has been a political prosecution couched in a ridiculously thinly guised "criminal" investigation.

Trump is not a member of the political class in the US and the political class wants nothing to do with him. He's the ultimate party crasher and they want him gone no matter what lengths they feel they have to go.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

But it takes a "High crime or Misdemeanor" for a president to be impeached as per the Constitution, it's not a campaign finance violation when Trump reimbursed Cohen and that's coming from even the Federal Elections Commission.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Yeah but if this drags on some, it gets past the midterms and if the counsel still is ongoing then a much weaker house (if the GOP even retain control) will make it easier for Mueller to maneuver. Trump won't be able to issue pardons, as long as the IC / SP remain at the helm. Judges tend to stick to just the case itself, as they should - if they chose to play politics with it all then in situations like this they would drag it all out - not look for a quick verdict by pressuring jurors etc.

The problem is that with DJ, they decide to forgo any possible attempt to re-try at a later date then so they may as well take it now. Add on as many charges as possible, in the hope of an original sentence being long enough, case the second judge makes the sentences concurrent, not consecutive. (We are all pretty much accepting that he will be found guilty at this point).

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Mueller is almost certainly going to go quiet around the mid-terms I think.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

This is the worst scenario, Several public figures go to prison. But the main culprit goes scot free.

I have said before that Trump has covered his tracks lovely.

And l think that someone will come along and say - l will tell all, and plead not to go to prison. And then see how quick Trump will say that 'they' are liars.

See money doesn't buy you everything. Even if he lost the Presidency. He will go back to his lavish lifestyle in Trump Tower. And his wife will divorce him

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

You also said before Trump would be shot in his first few months of office.... :rolleyes:

You are not always right - Arthur - just like now.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Yeah, Arthur I don't understand your post all...it doesn't even make comprehensive sense.

What are you even trying to say? That third line is just seizure inducing.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

It depends on his allocution. We'll have to wait for that.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Pretty much spot on, on the former. No matter how much Cohen squeals though, it is up to the discretion of the judge as to whether he will take the co-operation of Cohen (with SP / counsel) into any farther consideration. The latter (if executed upon) could lead to the government appealing Cohen's sentence to an appellate court (which they are perfectly entitled to do) and it would or could lead to an entirely new sentence. Perfectly plausible if the government feels that it is warranted. Though that varies from jurisdiction to level / type of crime etc. (Sentence is too lenient, at the federal level, for example etc). BoP could release early which king of complicates things, too.

The other thing to bear in mind is that some crimes do have mandatory minimum sentences (like with sex crimes for example) so a judge is bound by statute. The problem becomes, that at the point of wanting an early release, "co-operation" will go in a defendants favor ; so in the case of Cohen if he were to ask for Parole then perhaps the board will look at his behavior favorably. (That is why some sex offenders plead guilty and take the 25 to life in the hope of getting out after 25).

The issue of his flipping on Trump though, will have nothing to do with this sentence. That was referred to the SDNY's office and the US attorney's office there was the one that filed and charged. It was just a referral from Bob Muller through discovery of a crime. It has nothing to do with the Russia probe so like with all other relevant crimes (at the federal level) it is passed on to the relevant office for prosecution.

Now the prosecutors may have privately told Cohen (more than likely) that if he just says what he knows, they will recommend a lesser sentence to the judge, which is the most likely outcome. However, and this is the important part : the judge is in no way bound by their recommendation and in some cases will have his hands tied in the case of a MM. I think the judge (in this instance) will be lenient if he gives anything less than 60 months and Cohen will be very lucky ; he deserves a much longer sentence IMO.

He is one passive aggressive POS, too - saying that he would not appeal anything up to 63 months. His backhanded way of telling the judge "I'll go away quietly if you go easy on me". This is why (among everything else), Cohen is also a terrible lawyer himself. I hope the judge throws the book at the little weasel.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

I'm starting to think Cohen got wrapped up in more than he should have.

Lanny Davis, Cohen's attorney, was on CNN just a little while ago kind of walking back a lot of stuff he'd said. For example, he walked back the idea that Cohen had evidence related to the Trump Tower meeting.

This is just me shooting from the hip but I think Cohen knew he was screwed when it came to the tax evasion stuff. He was looking at decades of jail just for that. Then Lanny Davis came along to "save" him. Davis is a well known Clinton devotee. Davis probably discussed the possibility of Cohen dropping some kind of dirt that could be used against Trump in exchange for lenience in the tax matters. Cohen, unfortunately for him, didn't have much to say about Trump. The best they could come up with was campaign finance violations...and that was pushing it.

The prosecutors, however, loved the idea of the campaign finance stuff. Their whole reason for going after Cohen had been to get an inroad to Trump. Anyway, the deal was made and Cohen had his name in the papers as a potential savior of the nation if he could say something to put Trump away. So he opened up in the court room and let his big secret out...Trump had ordered all the payments and was the mastermind behind the whole thing.

It was a lie.

The tape Davis and Cohen released where they discuss the McDougal payment indicates that, contrary to Cohen's courtroom assertion, Trump was unaware that a payment was to be made until that call. Furthermore, the tape reveals Cohen saying how he arranged things with someone named Alan Weiselberg regarding how to "set the whole thing up". That's definitely not Trump telling him to make the deal. That's Cohen working with others to set up the payment and all he's doing is letting Trump know a payment will need to be made.

Cohen made one heck of an assertion in court and will likely need a whole lot of supporting documentation to prove his assertion if the Democrats that are pushing for impeachment try to use this thing. It's all political showmanship and, like most other things purported to portend Trump's demise, lacking desperately in substance.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

You goofed on that one Hugh - the joke has been going around some time but the MAGA acronym would be better suited to "my attorney got arraigned" given that the proceeding was an arraignment. /rasp

Luther is pretty much spot on in everything that he said in the post above btw...Cohen tried to talk big (as if he was some big power player) but now that Lanny is correcting the record all that is doing is suggesting that Cohen lied to the judge, too.

If anything, Cohen trying to be cute should probably whack on a few more charges. (Lying under oath / perjury etc). He tried to whack on some stuff onto Trump and in the process just admitted his own guilt some more. Tried to show that Trump colluded, it fell flat on its ass. (Like he did).

Luther's point is exactly correct - Lanny is a long time Clinton whore and the Clintons are playing Cohen like a bitch. As it is, Cohen deleted a few tweets...one specifically:

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...on-with-prison

Whoops!

What an idiot.

I am not saying this to absolve Trump but there is and has never ever been a shred of proof of any collusion. Yes I want Brett to be confirmed as the next AJ but even if he wasn't nominated to an open seat I can't see a single reason to suspect Trump of collusion. There is just no proof of it. Cohen is, has and always will be an idiot. None of what he said holds weight though. Like Luther said, it is a lie.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

So you have a Clinton Lawyer, Lanny and a Judge presiding over Cohen's case, Kimba Wood, who almost became President Clinton's Attorney General.... How convenient... :rolleyes:

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Mick, there's a whole lot of "interesting" surrounding the anti-Trump crowd. The more I watch this thing the more corrupt and abusive it looks. These people HATE Trump. I'm not talking about merely having political or sociological differences of opinion. I'm talking drunk mother-in-law who never flushes the toilet kind of hate. They are clinging to every potentially damaging tidbit they can find and building massive conspiracies around those tidbits. They were so heavily vested in the "Russia" thing that they HAVE to find something to hang around Trump's neck. It's simply incomprehensible to them that it was their own attitudes and their own tendencies to arbitrarily dismiss anyone they disagreed with that put Trump in office. They simply can't look in the mirror and find even a smidgen of fault in themselves. To them it MUST be some conspiracy that crushed their dreams and Trump MUST be at the center of that conspiracy. Frankly, it' a bit frightning to watch up close.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Not even close. The most often (trap) of a scenario is that have done very little wrong but they get you anyway because you lied about it. It is the known DC "not the crime, but the cover up" adage. It happens time and time again. For example, they will nail you on OoJ or Perjury charges, over and over again. The original issue was either a non issue or inconsequential ; your lie to hide it or cover it up is what will land you into trouble.

The tax aspect is just to nab serial liars like Cohen who screw every single thing up - bombastic assholes with not a cent to their name. All making it up as they go along on a ponzi pyramid scheme. Falsifying applications / loans / returns / income etc etc etc. Not only is Cohen one grandiose liar, but he is financially worthless and nothing but a lackey for Trump.

When Trump was done with him he turfed him and Cohen turned into a source / snitch for counsel.

Just like Comical Ali (after the fall of Baghdad) US authorities wanted none of it ; Mueller did not advocate that he get a lesser sentence nor was any of his information even worth anything. He passed it on to the SDNY's office so even as a petty criminal Cohen is a nobody. What a pathetic waste of space.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Speculation continues that Trump could paradon Manafort. I can’t think why he would do that, especially since the crimes for which he has been convicted predate his association with Trump.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Speculation is being packaged up by the Media, Trump has stated earlier in week he has not considered it.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Apparantly, Trump told his Fox interviewer he is :

Trump said he is considering a pardon for Paul Manafort, Fox's Ainsley Earhardt says after interview

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

So Trump now contradicting himself yet again.

It was no I didn't know about any money or pay outs to oh yeah the money came from me.

What a total idiot.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

#media conspiracy #crookedhillary #nocollusion

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Oh here we go with the usual, I am on the edge of my fecking seat discussion, "Trump's an idiot".

YAWN ZZZZ. :zzz:

He has a right to keep information that may have happened to him as a private citizen 12 years ago, we know he likes his women, has been divorced multiple times - that is his business, what he did in his own bloody time is no ones business whatsoever.

At least he has not engaged in sexual activities, in the oval office, like a certain 42nd President did and then lied about it.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Well if he had nothing to hide why lie about it all.

The truth always comes out in the end.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Surely it's the issue of paying someone off and not disclosing it properly that's the issue.

---------- Post added at 13:27 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

Habit?

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

It's only a bloody issue to the haters who want Trump gone.

Yet the U.S economy is in overdrive, Jobs up, GDP up.

Selfish, hateful people want all that disrupted and the economy would take a dive if Trump was removed - the U.S Market reacted badly to the revelations on Tuesday.

Meanwhile across the pond - Russia is laughing it's ass off at the disruption it's caused and all the goings on in the U.S, making the world quite vulnerable during that process, their mission complete.

Do people really think removing a sitting President will be a walk in the park ?

Wake the hell up. It would cause massive civil unrest and quite possibly not just in the U.S - Trump's HUGE base will not stand for it and they have their guns. The Constitution allows it's citizens to strike at the government during tyranny and "illegitimately" removing a sitting President would come under this "Tyranny" remit.

The 2nd Amendment was written solely for the people to strike back at tyranny in the Federal Government.

The Second Amendment provides U.S. citizens the right to bear arms. Ratified in December 1791, the amendment says: ... Having just used guns and other arms to ward off the English, and also there to give U.S citizens the opportunity to fight back against a tyrannical federal government.

The division in America is already huge - it would get worse if Trump was removed from office, illegitimately. So while one side may celebrate, the other side will rebel and it could get very nasty. Riots, you name it, massive civil unrest and it potentially could spill out across the world.

Yet in Russia, Putin is rubbing his hands in glee - thinking "job done."

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Still, be quite funny wouldn't it?

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

Sorry Mick, the 2nd amendment can only be invoked if the security of the state is at risk.

If the removal of Trump caused a rebellion of citizens of a state then the state government could raise a militia to put down the rebellion. The civil war you speak of would initially be confined within the state.

The only time a state can raise a militia against the federal government is if the federal government threatened the states security. The removal of Trump per se does not do that.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45285585

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

He is right in one respect because the market does fluctuate to world wide events - a Presidential removal is unprecedented, it's never happened before and as I already said, the market did suffer losses on Tuesday when Cohen and Manafort's legal troubles came to light.

People need to calm down about impeachment - it is not happening any time soon, if at all.

---------- Post added at 16:07 ---------- Previous post was at 16:04 ----------

Not true - People can take arms against their government if they feel it has become a Tyranny of oppression - the whole idea of the U.S Constitution was to prevent a Tyranny of oppression in the Federal Government.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

It would have happened had Nixon not resigned to avoid it though. He simply jumped before he was pushed.

I agree it won't happen though. For a start neither the Republicans nor Democrats seem to want it. At the moment the Democrats probably prefer him to stay in place.

The idea that a Militia could seriously challenge the power of the U.S government these days is a bit unbelievable though. I am also skeptical that many would take up arms to the cost life imprisonment/death to defend Trump from impeachment, especially if the impeachment is coming from illegality being discovered. No one took up arms to defend Nixon or Clinton from impeachment.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

You're forgetting, the President is the Commander and chief of the army. He could order them to stand down, are they obliged to obey?

What's the actual process to physically removing the President from the White House/Power.... ?

Are the Secret Service ordered to stand down, who gives them that order ?

With Nixon resigning, so impeachment did not apply. He also lost extensive support.

Clinton was cleared by the Senate, so full impeachment was not fulfilled. Clinton survived.

There was no need for some kind of civil unrest in either case because the removal process never actually took place.

So while Clinton was Impeached in House of Representatives, he was acquitted in the Senate because of the two-thirds of the Senate — 67 votes needed — is a very high threshold that’s almost never achieved on any matter that’s remotely partisan, which is why Trump is in no danger, even if Democrats take ALL 10 Republican Senate Seats up for re-election after the Mid-terms, the numbers just are not there, there would have to be very damning evidence of a high crime for Trump to lose Republican Senators support.

The Founding Fathers did not make it easy for Congress to remove a democratically elected president from power. Bill Clinton's Impeachment proceedings showed that, even after he was technically guilty of lying of having his affair.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

First, if it should ever happen (which I doubt) would the removal of Trump be Tyranny of oppression? If he were to be removed there would have to be sufficient legal grounds for it.

Second you have to consider how the removal would affect the security of the state. It can if it wishes secede from the union with an overwhelming citizen vote and then may have a security of the state issue if the union objected and were willing to enforce it.

Third it would have to be the state government which perceived the security of the state to be at risk and raise the militia to defend the state.

That is the reality of the 2nd amendment.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

The Senate Trial isn't like a court of legal proceedings - there is evidence based facts sharing, however, it's the votes that matter and it's purely political - a president can be completely innocent of the charges being levied against him, it's not like a criminal trial where once convicted, there is an appeal.

---------- Post added at 17:53 ---------- Previous post was at 17:46 ----------

Hearing on grapevine Special Counsel, Mueller could be about to claim Donald Trump Jnr lied to Congress. Not being reported on any news outlet yet...

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

From Day 1 of the Trump Russian Collusion Investigation, he had been tipped as the person in the Trump family most likely to be charged, so that is plausible.

Re: President Trump & U.S Election 2016 Investigation
 

To be clear I don't think impeachment should happen here unless a serious crime in proven. I think it's a dangerous tool which should only be used in extraordinary circumstances otherwise we're going to have impeachment being used every few years against every President.

I don't actually know the answers to your questions here, I am guessing the details will be fuzzy. Like our system they seem to sometimes work on the assumption of people doing what is right.

However impeachment is the proper way to remove a President. If Trump refused to leave and attempted to use the army to enforce that then we've entered a failed American democracy, Trump will be the tinpot despot people fear.