Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You say that, ignoring the passions stirred up by the Brexit debate! Have you been hibernating already?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

i can see where this thread is going to go quite sharply :D

Long live Democracy and free speech :)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Passions yes which is fine and dandy but add to that you had duplicity , chicanery . lies , deceit call it what you want but it was there in spades from both sides of the argument.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

All part and parcel of another fun year of politics!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

People are passionate about Brexit, politicians not so much.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Perhaps you should watch the parliamentary debates on it, then! Plenty of time devoted to it on PMQs.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Some are passionate about the amount of money they will make once they slide gracefully in their prepared Company Directorships ...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

And some are that passionate they scarper off to foreign climbs while proclaiming their loyalty to this country.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

May be time dedicated to it but not many MPs in attendance, if the Express's photo the other day was accurate! https://www.express.co.uk/ourpaper

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Some interesting conclusions from the National Audit Office in their report released this morning about the government’s planning and spending framework and how to improve it.
.

https://www.nao.org.uk/report/improv...very&utm_term=

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

#strongandstable
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...etters-sent-in

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It’s looking like a no-deal. I’m hoping for a no-deal. I don’t believe the EU, or France or Germany, are going to take this seriously until no-deal is properly on the table. As soon as we establish that we’re heading for no deal, the bluff over the Irish border will be called (we’re not going to install one, there won’t be one unless the Irish decide to do so), and the backstop will be neutralised. It’s fairly obvious that Spain and France are already making plans to use the backstop as a bargaining chip in future trade negotiations. I’d rather they didn’t have the chance.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

We would still need an answer to how we deal with an open border with a country that might have different regulations. The obvious answer is a border in the Irish Sea but the DUP won't have it so...

Also the EU are probably expect the first vote to fail but think we'll either vote again or go the the Norway-for-now option.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

If a hard border is put in place, it will be done by the EU, not us. This backstop stuff is a complete red herring. Solutions are readily available, the EU have just got to stop being so bloody minded. If they did, TM might just get this proposed agreement through the Commons.

If the Withdrawal Agreement is voted down, the best thing would be to have no further votes and just let Article 50 come in naturally. We can then start negotiating the trade deals with the EU and other countries (work on which must be at an advanced stage by now).
Unfortunately, without the Withdrawal Agreement, this will mean some initial costs and disruption, but this will be the price of rejecting Theresa May's proposed deal. I hope people realise that.

---------- Post added at 08:23 ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 ----------

The thing is, Damien, at the point of our withdrawal, all our regulations will be the same as with the EU. So no need for a border. The trade deal we are seeking with the EU should avoid problems down the line. The EU have already said they don't want tariffs applied.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

What solutions?

---------- Post added at 08:31 ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 ----------

At the start I can see a fudge being fine, i.e we just ignore the problem and hope WTO rules don't cause a problem, but when regulatory standard diverge then you need customs checks. Unless the deal with the EU is a customs union or better.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But, Damien, TM is proposing a common rulebook and no tariffs with the EU. So what is this obsession with the border?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Regulatory alignment is the solution to the border and the common rulebook got her into trouble with her backbenches. If we're in 'a' customs union, preferably the EEA, then fine. This deal also prevents that.

But if we're not going for the deal and want a Free trade agreement only with the EU then the border will be an issue. People keep saying it won't be but never explain why. Two markets with different regulatory regimes have customs checks, custom checks require borders/infrastructure....

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I thought the whole idea was that we would have regulatory alignment with the EU!

Your proposal that we have a customs union, however, won't work, will it? That would prevent us from making trade deals of our own, which is the chief economic advantage of leaving the EU.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I know what would and does work, but you won't like it... ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

How can you do trade deals if you have regulatory alignment for most, if not all, goods? A key aspect of trade deals is the aligning and changing of regulations for the various products/industries/whatever with the country you're doing the deal with.

The only reason not to have a customs union if you already have regulatory alignment is either because it isn't full regulatory alignment (which means check for some things) or you want to diverge from that later. Both would require a customs border.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes, but regulatory alignment in the main types of goods flowing to and from the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (mainly agricultural) should not pose a big problem. For the small percentage of other goods involved, the arrangements already put forward by the UK would suffice.

---------- Post added at 09:14 ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 ----------

Nor would most people in this country, it seems...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well only about a quarter actually, probably less than that now.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think this Brexit will go on forever, Wish they would just get us out and let us get on with what comes next, These politicians are a back stabbers .

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So do I, but we are deviating ourselves really, because this is not even the Brexit thread!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

EU net migration to UK falls to lowest level in almost six years.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...most-six-years

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But, but, but...

How can we blame the EU for non-EU migration steadily rising?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No doubt somebody will..;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

We're way beyond logic I am afraid. We will blame whoever we're told to blame. It's worked for the last 40 years so no reason to change things.

The joke is of course the ones who control the agenda will continue to do so ...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

This is usually the level of incompetence and recklessness one would find in some Labour councils.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-by-government

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-money.html

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Conservatives were once the party of sound money but after the ERM issue they lost a bit of credibility. They've since lost more with Boris's vanity projects and Brexit.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Ah, yes, the ERM! Yet another failed EU project!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The honourable Nigel Lawson did not think so..;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

And as you can tell from his pronouncements in more recent times, he has been very sceptical of the EU project ever since.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So sceptical of the EU project he's applied for residency France ! A typical hypocritical Brexiter.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

There are quite a few hypocrites like James Dyson, Jacob Rees-Mogg , John Redwood and Lord Ashcroft all moving their investments abroad to escape the shock of a no-deal Brexit.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Only you would connect the two and draw the wrong conclusion!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Theresa May says she’s staying put, even after Brexit

https://metro.co.uk/2018/12/01/there...sZm9aq2WzOeJtg

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

l doubt it if the vote goes very badly as there are enemies within her own party who are likely to see it as their great chance to get rid of her.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

What? Only I would connect what Nigel Lawson says, to what Nigel Lawson does ! Surely not ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

He is a hypocrite pure and simple as there are plenty who can talk the talk but when it comes down to it l like people who say what they mean rather then those who come out with false insincerity.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Whatever we might say about Theresa May's Government, The Conservatives are still ahead in the opinion polls - 40% v 35% Labour.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...bour-35-26-27-

---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

A competitive, thriving country made possible by EU membership attracts global talent.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

l think that tells you about the current state of the Labour party who quite clearly has the wrong leader in charge but that does not mean the Conservatives are any cop either because they ain't as they are too far right wing currently and there are many moderate conservatives who are not enamoured with the way their party is going currently..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The Tories are better at papering over the cracks. There is a fundamental schism visible between the moderates & RW Tories but they will pull together somehow.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

In what way do you think they are too 'right-wing', Den?

Margaret Thatcher was right-wing but Theresa May is a teddy bear compared with her.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Too many policies l disagree with like the NHS , education , transport policy , too much privatisation and outsourcing of government contracts awarded to private companies where profits come before the customers interests on every occasion as its gone too far that way for my liking but that does not excuse Labour and its PFI fiasco either, a tax system that favours the big multinationals companies too much while smaller businesses have to cope with a archaic unfair business rate system , A lack of any sustainable affordable housing which helps people get on the properly ladder , etc, etc , etc.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

What we have really had in government since 1979 is Tory or Tory lite.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Wow! We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one!

I'm surprised that you should be unhappy with the government's policy on the NHS. It was certainly not in safe hands when patients resorted to drinking out of vases to keep hydrated in Labour's day. The Conservatives put more money into the NHS than Labour would have done, they are now working to improve mental health services which have long been the Cinderella service of the NHS, they have stopped the appalling waste of money on poor value for money contracts and they've just announced another £20 bn for the NHS.

Which of those policies do you disagree with? You know very well that Labour would not do better, I am sure.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Having been a frequent user of the NHS these last 20 years l would say l am more qualified then some on the state of the NHS and it has deteriorated a fair bit in these last 6 plus years in terms of the many facets of the NHS.


There are many reasons of course and this is a reasonable explanation on where we are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42572110

https://fullfact.org/health/is-nhs-in-crisis/

---------- Post added at 05:05 ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 ----------

Mental health services have been severely underfunded for far too long IMO as a persons mental health is just as important as their physical health as politician's talk the talk about mental health services and improving it but thus so far that is all it is talk and talk is cheap.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-mental-health

https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2018-12...mental-health/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...y-productivity

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Interesting to read about the lower increases in NHS spending under recent non-Labour governments, Den. Thanks for sharing.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

There are many policies l disagree with as the Conservatives are in government currently and its up to them to come out with coherent well thought out policies but thus so far they have been too deeply obsessed with Brexit and not much else and that is not good enough for many voters.

We are not talking about Labour as that seems to be your usual default position when a forum member questions the government of the day as the Conservatives are in government , They are in charge of government policies so the buck stops with them end of...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That form of non-debate has an official name "Whataboutism". It was popularised by the Trump campaign who suggested the use of "What about her emails?" when faced with difficult questions. (Her being Hillary Clinton.)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes, but when it comes to the vote, you have to make a decision about the performance of parties in government, don't you?

It's no good voting for Labour because you think the Conservatives could have done more for the NHS when it is obvious that Labour would do less, based on their record.

That is why I make the comparison.

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 ----------

It's not, Andrew. You can complain as much as you like about the current government, but when you compare them with the last Labour government and the state of the Corbyn Labour Party now, it puts matters in context.

Of course, the diehards don't like such comparisons because it shows their party in a bad light. That's why they don't want to engage in such arguments.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Denphone and I are not diehards who support any one party, as far as I know. ;) There's threads to discuss the Labour Party's issues but I for one don't think any party has a monopoly on policies or talent.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Spot on Andrew but alas any constructive criticism of some of the incumbent governments policies and its the usual predictable flag waving default response from him.

l will criticise a policy whichever party it is if l think there is a problem with that policy but the Conservatives are the incumbent sitting government so the buck stops with them as its their policies that are playing out in the country currently.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That makes any argument one-sided, but if that's how you like to run your arguments, at least now we know.

I mean, blaming the Conservatives for actions they had to take to save the economy from Labour's overspending is rather a good wheeze for those on the other side of the argument, isn't it?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

l will criticise any other party which l have before quite a few times if you open your pretty blinkered mind and as for one sided arguments well you are pretty much the expert at that as you praise government policy after policy without any hint of criticism for any of their policies..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I have voted both Conservative and Labour previously, so not as 'one-sided' as you claim. I am not an apologist for the Conservatives, but they are the most credible party of all of them right now.

All I am saying is that all arguments should be in context.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

l am not calling you this or that OB but just pointing out to you my thoughts on the governments policies but that does not mean l am happy with some of the oppositions policies either as remember all of us are individuals and each individual will have his own rational reasons where he or she puts their vote at the end of the day and they should not be lambasted for that.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So now what?

Looks like the DUP will vote against the government all the time but for confidence and supply motions ensuring they can't do anything but also we can't elect a new one.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

We are pretty much in uncharted waters to where we go from here as your guess is as good as mine as to what will happen in these coming weeks and months.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Tories suspend 14 members over alleged Islamophobia.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...lamophobia#_=_

It seems the Conservatives have just as much a problem with Islamophobia as Labour has with Antisemitism.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

However the difference is that it is the followers of Islam that keep trying to kill us.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The whole nation, including the Labour Party, has a problem with Islam because of its association with Al Queda and ISIS. It wasn't like this until the Twin Towers incident changed everything.

If you have an enemy, the tendency is for people to hate the religion or philosophy that caused it, even though this might be a blunt instrument.

Incidentally, just to make clear, it is not Islam that is the problem but the perverse interpretation of it by extremists. They are the real enemy.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Maybe the real problem is the politicians and the media who are happy to scapegoat then give platforms to the loudest right wing idiots to dog whistle from?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Here are the latest statistics regarding Terrorism in Great Britain.

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...3/CBP-7613.pdf

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Labour holds on to Newport West seat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-47786885

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...h-jones-brexit

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Poor show from UKIP, despite a high profile candidate.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

When it comes down to the nitty gritty voters shy away from their extreme policies.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Difficult to crunch the numbers in any meaningful way given the poor turnout but it represents a 2.4% swing to the Tories, which ain’t half bad given the extended panto season underway at the Palace of Westminster.

Having said that, Labour and Tory both lost vote share; it just happens that Labour lost a lot more (which again, is kind of notable given that so many card-carrying Labour Party members still think Jezza is the messiah).

UKIP’s votes, had they gone to the Tory, would have made this a Conservative win last night. Something Tory strategists should be thinking very carefully about if an election occurs before Brexit does.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You’re not a very good analyst of election results are you?

They increased their vote share. beat Liberal Democrat’s. Green Party. PC. Who are all Anti-Brexit. Enough said.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But down 4,111 votes from 2015 - not much of a resurgence...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Personally l think it would be rather dangerous to read too much into one by-election.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think May voting time will find some people are so disgusted they will not vote,

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes it would not surprise me if there was a low turnout nash given many peoples disgust with the whole political system.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well that's the usual situation in any election. Too many apathetic,disaffected and disenfranchised who can't be bothered.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

What do you do when all options aren't acceptable to you?

I only vote for something I want and believe in, a choice of 4 different size coconuts is no choice at all.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

People have come to recognise that voting is worthless,as soon as a winner is declared they just do as they please.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

or a winner is declared that doesn't actually win ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You only have to look at the broken promises since the election compared to the manifesto's they all espoused truthfully to the voters at election time and not much stands up to scrutiny if you look at those manifesto's now.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

This was a by-election not a Main Election - I cannot treat your argument seriously enough, except laugh at the pathetic subdiffusion attempt that it is.

UKIP now to UKIP then, in 2015, far different, not led by Nigel Farage but their vote share has risen again since 2017, so your argument is largely, invalid.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The problem is when a group of mp's try to stick to the manifesto promises they are labelled Extremist or Brextremist.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

UKIP doesn't have a prayer under the current electoral system. If there was PR they and the LibDems would do a lot better. However it's how the 2 main parties like it for obvious reasons.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

UKIP doesn’t have to have a prayer of holding any parliamentary seats. They have only to keep their vote share high enough to disrupt a few victories here and there for one side or the other. UKIP’s erosion of the Tory vote was a significant factor in Cameron’s decision to go for a referendum in 2016.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

what happens if nobody but the 'die hards' ( aka my dad & grandad voted for them so I will) vote for the 2 main parties?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So UKIPs main threat is to damage the Tories and let Labour in? They and the ERGs plans have a habit of backfiring. Lions led by donkeys? Or donkeys led by donkeys?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

There are likely to damage Labour just as much if not more.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

More likely to affect the Tories though. Corbyn has been crafty in keeping his heartlands sweet.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

l am not convinced by your chain of thought there Mr K.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

There are a lot of angry (to say the least) Tory Brexiteers, and they only have one way to turn.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

UKIP :D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

We don’t do proportional representation.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

UKIP's alignment with Tommy Robinson, is a legitimate concern. It's why Farage has distanced himself massively from UKIP. Leave.EU group now endorses Nigel's new political party, The Brexit Party.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

What about the angry labour brexiteers?

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:11 ----------

i Can see a pint glass atop the dispatch box in the near future ;)

---------- Post added at 15:13 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

Or democracy.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

8th time lucky, eh? ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

In Chinese culture 8 is a lucky number.


I can see the speaker shouting order order and the reply being a pint of old speckled todger please.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I thought you didn’t want other cultures over here?

Anyway, Nige was born in the year of the Dragon, so his lucky numbers are (weren’t) 1, 6, and 7 - 8 is one of his unlucky numbers...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

One of my adopted sisters is of Chinese descent ,so i wouldn't say that.

my only worry is the influx of unskilled labor into the UK taking all the unskilled jobs .

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Not direct democracy. Representative democracy.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Representing their own interests :(