Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think the bigger issue with loss of single-market membership is pan-European business. Not everything is a product entirely made here, or Europe, and then shipped back or forth for an exchange of cash. A lot of it will be income generated by a business working across borders as if it were one nation, i.e a single market, which may suddenly become more prohibitive. Say a French lawyer working in Germany on behalf of a British firm. Situations such as that are way people say free movement of people is part of the single market because you can't have people applying for work permits for that to work. Instead companies can set up in Europe knowing they're able to address the European market as if it were a single entity with everything from their employees to the regulations they need to abide by.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Indeed. A simple example is that if people look at things as mundane as some supermarket own brand products they'll see that they came from Belgium, the Netherlands or similar. On WTO rules those carry pretty sizeable tariffs.

A more complex example is our car industry. We assemble the vehicles here using parts imported from Europe. Without the single market there are potentially tariffs to pay on those parts. Even if there are no tariffs there are issues with point of origin, non-tariff barriers are a big problem.

It's an unenviable list of challenges wanting to disentangle the UK completely from the EU in one fell swoop. Let's hope our politicians are up to it, there's certainly little indication thusfar that they are.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Teresa May has said this:

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/783195009550024704

What the hell is going on? Why shouldn't they be able to stay if they want? They're bloody Doctors. If they're already here legally are we revoking that? This has to be either a misquote or a badly worded sentence.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Can't see that anywhere else in the media,especially the BBC where it is supposed to have been said.

However, this is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37546360


There's nothing in the BBC's rolling coverage of the Conference.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-37539156

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

A bit of an aside but I've just seen a well known actor (whose name escapes me) being interviewed on TV (The Wright Stuff) who was going on about how strange it is that people might not be happy with the EU when, in his words, there are signs everywhere saying funded by the EU or words to that effect.

I get it, maybe if we had signs on every publicly funded building, infrastructure project or whatever, saying 'Not funded by the EU' that'd put things into better perspective and redress the balance. The fact is that the EU simply gives us back some of the money it takes from us and one of the main arguments in support of Brexit is/was to take back the power to spend all of the money saved how we, via our elected leaders, choose to rather than having Brussels bureaucrats dictate it then erect signs telling us how generous they've been...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's a weak argument certainly.

I can see a case to be made that the EU has focused spending in areas traditionally neglected by Westminster, Wales being an example, and these areas voted Leave. These areas are not having the subsequent shortfall in EU money safeguarded from Westminster either despite suggestions they would during the campaign (from the magical £350 million).

I didn't like this argument as a defense of the EU though because at best it's an argument that Westminster government is so poor that we need the EU to override it which isn't a great place from which to start.

The arguments I believed in and continue to believe in is that the economic benefit of the single market outweighs the downside and certainly wipes out the £350 million a week. Although I don't see the point of starting that debate again. ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If these matters are handled properly there's no reason why the economic benefit of enhanced trade with the rest of the world won't in turn dwarf anything lost directly (if indeed that winds up happening) as a result of a different relationship with the EU. As the EU carries on into decline and chaos, membership of that club is looking less appealing and we need to remember that when we negotiate because if the situations were reversed they'd be letting us know in no uncertain terms that they need us less than we need them.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

There are a bunch of reasons why, at least in the short and medium terms, there is no way that's going to be the case.

Not least because there's every indication matters aren't being handled properly and economic policy is taking a back seat to immigration.

We currently have trade agreements with the EU 27 + 53 other nations. March 2019 we'll have trade agreements with zero.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual...tion_agreement need establishing even where there's no free trade in progress.

We need to get our schedules with the WTO sorted, which includes our shares of quotas, requiring agreement from the EU 27 and every other WTO member. That or become a 'bastion of free trade' with no restrictions to trade at all and watch as bits of our economy are wiped out by those who can produce comparable products for a fraction of the cost - even with tariffs.

The idea that we're going to roll smoothly out of the EU and into a panacea of prosperity is beyond comedy and the government aren't helping with a string of anti-business policies.

Hopefully of course the current rhetoric is just that and a decent solution that protects British businesses can be found. The Conservative Party Conference has sounded more like a UKIP conference.

Can't accuse them of being corporatist though, just yet anyway. That comes with a bonfire of workers' rights later.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The worry for me is why the EU is so keen to get the UK to invoke Article 50.

I'm wondering if the recent referendum in Hungary knocking back quotas and the recent German elections showing gains by the anti-EU parties is causing concern in the EU ranks.

Is it a case of a desire for damage limitation or is the EU looking forward to pounding the UK so that it can proceed with those policies opposed by the UK?

Must be confusing for the EU particularly as some UK MPs are wanting a quick Brexit and others not and some want a hard Brexit and others a softer version, plus the varying comments by Fox, Johnson and May. Are these designed to catch the EU off balance or are they a general indication of the government confusion over Brexit?

There's also the variations in British industries' requirements with some wanting the single market and others happy to work outside it.

It'll be interesting to hear what other news we hear in the run-up to Brexit because Theresa May strikes me as a careful planner, who, unlike Cameron, will definitely have a plan B and probably a plan C, plan D, plan E etc.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The language is getting really worrying IMO

They are acting like it was a clear majority, 48% did vote for no change they may want think about that.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

48% didn't vote for no change, they voted not to leave. Many Remainers accept the EU was/is in dire need of change, indeed one of their main arguments was that the UK should stay in the club in order to help direct that change...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I honestly think they just want us gone so that they can get on with business going forward. This is going to be using a whole bunch of time that could be better spent working on issues.

In other news the PM seems to have moderated her mind a little after her UKIP impersonation on Sunday. Wonder if the feedback, Sterling hitting a 35 year low amongst other things, gave her a moment of pause?

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-ma...slump-10605390

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Point corrected but sentiment remains, 52% does not represent a clear majority mandate to do what they like

This is too big an issue to get wrong

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yes, well, not our problem anymore. 52% didn't vote for leaving the EEA, pre-vote 2/3rds of the population said they would be okay with EFTA, but we are where we are.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Why is she saying she wants UK firms to operate inside the single market after saying we're leaving the single market. The desired deal seems to change rather drastically...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

EU criminals facing deportation and UK ban for up to 10 years
http://news.sky.com/story/eu-crimina...years-10605190

You see this is the rub for me, it was portrayed you couldn't do anything regarding criminals whilst in the EU and now they suddenly announce that you can do things now, but obviously people will connect this to the vote

No point crying over spoilt milk but if the government acted on powers it already had e.g. half of net migration from non EU then I would have more sympathy to the rhectoric of taking back control

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Totally agree with you - I too believed that such criminals still had the right to remain here and I agree that people will connect it to the referendum result and think we did it now because the EU can't do anything about it.

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

It's here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b056365584ba42

Video here: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...ef=theresa-may

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We couldn't

because we voted to leave or have you missed the last 100 days .

There is no point in waiting for 2 years to start introducing changes we are leaving so start making changes ,it's simple

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We could and in the last 100 days we haven't left yet

In a speech that echoed Theresa May's commitment to tackling immigration, Ms Rudd said: "While we are still members of the EU, there are things we can get on with immediately.

"We are going to overhaul our legislation to toughen our approach to deporting EU criminals and those who abuse our laws.

"We will make clear what our courts must take into account when considering the deportation of EU criminals, aligning their fortunes more closely with those from outside the EU.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Jeremy Hunt said this

Also doctors will have to work for the NHS for a minimum of 4 yrs as payback for the free training

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think we need more clarity on how we can kick people out before Brexit. Does she mean well legislate in preparation for Brexit, do we not care about consequences from the EU or was this always a possibility we simply didn't use until now.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Basically what she is saying is that because we are leaving the EU we might as well get on and start changing things now .Pointless sticking rigidly to EU rules that are no longer applicable.You will find a lot of things that we couldn't do before we will be doing now

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think there's two reasons. Firstly, those countries want some certainty. Secondly, the sooner that Britain goes down the Brexit route, the more chance that future investment for Europe will be made on the Continent and not in Britain.

It will be darkly interesting to see where the next Nissan Qashqai is made. In its existing Sunderland plant, Nissan's Barcelona factory or in France by sister company Renault. This will set the tone for the success or failure of Brexit in many peoples' eyes in a way that weaker exchange rates and higher shop prices and utility bills will not.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You will also find we could have done alot of things already without leaving

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's likely that we'll all be a nation of hoteliers and other service industries post-Brexit, according to Brexit economist Patrick Minford. https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/po...and-even-brie/ But I've heard in Europe that the Cool Britania image was damaged by the increase in racist attacks post-Brexit and sales of British brands have suffered.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

No reason why we can't boot them out now .We deport plenty of criminals back to their original country but stopping them returning has always been an issue simply because they are EU citizens and can move freely around the EU

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Agreed. Europe would intervene tomorrow if we went against EU legislation.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

and do what ,threaten to kick us out .

To be clear we have always deported criminals back to EU countries but we cannot stop them returning after they serve their time while we are still in the EU .Now we can and there is no reason why we shouldn't give new guide lines to the courts immediately

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I don't know if it's a case of:
1) You tell people different messages according to what they want to hear and hope no one compares your messages.
2) You realise that being outside the European single market is seen by the markets as a poor idea...so you apply a swift handbrake turn.
3) You realise that being outside the European single market is seen by the markets as a poor idea...so you pretend to Sky News that you don't want to leave the single market knowing that a week is a long time in politics let alone 2.5 months!

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 18:57 ----------

We certainly don't want to annoy EU member states if we want them to agree our Brexit conditions and future trade terms.

That's incorrect. Since David Cameron's negotiations we can prevent anyone who's a threat from a threat from returning and I link to an independent fact-checking website to show this.
I don't know what the agreement states for not complying with EU legislation. Presumably there's a sliding scale starting with fines. and ending with expulsion. David Cameron's deal made it far easier to deport EU criminals and to prevent anyone who was a threat from returning to the UK. .https://fullfact.org/europe/explaini...eu-immigrants/

---------- Post added at 19:16 ---------- Previous post was at 19:05 ----------

That's a UKIP myth, see above post.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

David Camerons negotiations mean didley squat.He only negotiated them early this year and besides that we voted to leave so now his supposed better deal is meaningless

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:24 ----------

What is ?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We're still in the EU till March 2019 so it's only common sense that we implement them which is what we're doing.
The myth that we can't prevent EU criminals from returning to the UK. Per the independent fact-checking website I linked to https://fullfact.org/immigration/imm...ecific-groups/

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's not common sense at all it's ridiculous to keep implementing rules we are going to ditch .Think of how many of our criminals we can jail if we kick out the thousands of foreign criminals we jail.

If we couldn't prevent EU criminals from returning to the UK why did Cameron make such a big play of trying to get the ability to prevent EU criminals entering the UK . To be clear ,EU citizens have the right to live and work in any EU member state ,full stop ,it's the very basis of the single market and the European Union.Camerons supposed negotiations giving us all these changes to our membership was all hot air and so full of holes as to sink at the first test ,that's why we voted out

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm confused. If we implement Cameron's agreement then we can repatriate these EU criminals. If we don't, we can't. And as I explained earlier, we need to keep the EU member states on board if we're to get a good settlement with them and trade deals afterwards. It's called diplomacy or common sense.

If you can grab a couple of minutes to read that fact-checking website you should find it useful. It concludes "These changes don’t deliver on the Prime Minister’s previous proposals for “tougher and longer” re-entry bans for foreign rough sleepers, beggars and fraudsters. But they do qualify as “stronger powers to deport criminals and stop them coming back”.
I'm afraid that fact-checking websites are rather dry and less of an interesting read than UKIP tabloids like the Daily Express. But their findings are accurate and that's what's important...whatever your opinion of EU membership.

---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:38 ----------

Britain slips down to become the sixth-largest economy in the World.
https://www.ft.com/content/7508bf1e-...7-e7ada1d123b1

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

More people didn't vote for it than did in other words

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We aren't a Donald Trump business, there are consequences to unilaterally breaking treaties that go well beyond our relationship with the EU.

Until we leave our businesses and people continue to have the same privileges while we have the same responsibilities. Really not worth threatening our economy for the sake of something so minor. We start leaving diplomacy behind we basically force the EU to retaliate and everyone loses even more. A bad exit deal will cost many jobs and tens of billions to the economy.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

FFS..... your right you are confused

Camerons agreement doesn't mean a thing ,we have voted to leave so all of his supposed deals are useless and meaningless,the choice we had was to vote to leave or remain with a renegotiated deal with the EU we chose the former because the latter didn't happen and apart from that even if we had voted to stay he ONLY NEGOTIATED IT THIS YEAR so that means for years previously we have had trouble deporting criminals and powerless to prevent them entering the UK.The biggest criticism Cameron got after his return from the negotiating table was that his deal was ineffective and meaningless ,that is one reason why we voted to leave

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Put Cameron deal to one side

We already have the power to deport criminals regardless of nationality

As we are not part of schengen, we have control to restrict who comes in if we feel the need to on good reasons such as strong criminal record, we show a passport leaving/entry

That is available today regardless of leaving EU, and despite what others have said

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

None of which has anything to do with kicking criminals out of the country.We get to dictate our terms now not Brussels

---------- Post added at 21:48 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------


I know ,i said that earlier ,we have always deported criminals back to EU countries it's stopping them getting into the UK that's the problem because we cannot stop EU citizens entering the UK and those good reasons you speak of are so complicated and heavily conditioned as to be pointless.Even the 'special deal' Cameron negotiated was riddled with conditions and caveats

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

A useful analysis here regarding the exchange rate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...-fall-further/

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

As I and others have tried our very best to explain - the UK can't suddenly decide to stop complying with EU legislation. So, nothing to be lost putting into effect the concessions that Cameron won.

Agree with you except that we have not been totally powerless to prevent them re-entering the UK. Our powers in this area have been strengthened by Cameron's negotiations as the Factchecking article showed, which incidentally is worth a read when you get a chance.

Agreed, that was the biggest criticism he got. It wasn't valid criticism but Cameron failed in presentation by showing his hand first, a mistake Theresa May is keen not to make.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Some of it we can and should ,for example criminals,and i'm fairly certain the EU couldn't give 2 hoots how many criminals we refuse entry to or deport ,not now we are leaving anyway .

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Meanwhile, UKIP's leader manages not even to last as long as Sam Allardyce's stint as England manager!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37558485

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

There's a separate thread for that and it's already been posted.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ne...kers-gw20ndp5x

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I cannot express enough how disappointing I am with the way this is going, this is fuelled by perception rather than reality and wouldn't blame any foreign company deciding not to invest in Britain.

Christ we might as well go the whole hog and ask all Migrants to wear a yellow star

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Hopefully companies resist. I am surprised how anti-foreigner the Tories have been this conference when the whole Brexit vote was portrayed as against the EU and not against foreigners but instead they've hinted at foreign doctors having to leave, not assured EU citizens they can stay and now want companies to provide lists of foreigners.

In retrospect it probably would have been better if Boris had become leader. May seems like she is drastically over-compensating for being a Remainer by putting the boot in as much as possible.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I agree Damien, I see Dr Fox been pouring his mouth off regarding EU citizens in this country, for the record Liam my fiancé is not a bargaining chip

Real sad feel of right wing nationalism spreading across Europe, it's not just us

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Looks like it's dawned on them what they were actually considering and they're backtracking:
https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/statu...67142302212096

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I don't know what to feel, careless talk like this doesn't help and does real damage to reputation. Leaving the EU was based on cutting red tape not create more

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The trouble is - like the GPs, they say one thing to the Conservative Party Conference and another to everyone else. Which is correct?

---------- Post added at 09:50 ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 ----------

Commonwealth fears grow over impact of Brexit vote. Commonwealth nations have commissioned a report which highlights four issues, based mainly on the weakened pound.
- Commonwealth Exports. Weakened Pound threatens Commonwealth exports to the UK. Six states, in particular — Botswana, Belize, Seychelles, Mauritius, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka — might suffer “a big hit” from a fall in the pound because the UK accounts for more than 10 per cent of their total exports. Imports from Canada, South Africa, India and Sri Lanka might also be affected.
- Commonwealth Tourism. Sterling's devaluation could impact British tourism among member states. Some 60 per cent of Commonwealth nations are small states and tourism is the main income earner for these countries. For most, the UK is in the top three countries from which tourists travel.
- Remittances to Commonwealth Countries. The falling pound might reduce remittances from Commonwealth citizens living in Britain back to their home countries. In 2012, migrants in the UK sent $12bn of remittances to families back home.
- Reduced EU aid to the Commonwealth. The UK contributes 10% of its aid budget to EU institutions and this is at risk of reduction after Britain leaves the EU.
https://www.ft.com/content/ec5a4cfe-...7-e7ada1d123b1

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Not until we've actually left.

You may not care about an £18-36 billion a year hole in the economy with £8-10 billion a year less tax for schools and hospitals as a result of a WTO deal on financial services for the sake of 'sovereignty', I would hope HMG do.

---------- Post added at 09:58 ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 ----------

None of it we can, or should. The country is signed up to the EU treaties until Brexit day.

I'm fairly certain the EU would be quite bothered if we started tearing up the treaties early. They would have no choice politically but to retaliate, probably by withdrawing our access to the Single Market early. I appreciate this is something you'd love to happen but those who live and trade in a bigger world really don't.

I have no idea whether you negotiate anything or are purely a manual worker, but as a general rule upsetting people before you negotiate with them isn't a great way to get a good result.

The attitude you seem to want to take towards the EU, basically ''eff it and 'eff them' terrifies UK businesses for good reasons. Between that and the government deciding it wants to start controlling the economy more, that'll be the bastion of free trade stuff kicking in, we quickly become an even less attractive location for investment.

We aren't entitled to investment from abroad. We keep sending out these signals about making it harder for them to do business here all the corporation tax cuts in the world won't help us, shell companies don't tend to employ many staff or pay that much tax.

---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 ----------

Sounds great, but how does it help the UK longer term when assets, and the income they generate, are being sent abroad on what is, to them, the cheap?

Also ignores the impact on inflation which will be filtering through more and more. People's wages aren't going to suddenly start going up, so what about real wages and living standards?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

There's been plenty of inflammatory talk emanating from the EU so let's not run away with the idea that it's the sole preserve of the Tory govt. or UKIP. This is all part of the bargaining process, it's to be expected at this stage.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The Government's pronouncements are nothing to do with the bargaining process and everything to do with winning the hand of UKIP voters and the right ring of the Party.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Inflammatory talk whoever it spouts from is a sad reflection of our times sadly and the sooner we get rid of it and have a mature adult reasoned debate the better IMO.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I disagree - the two are not mutually exclusive. Just like the inflammatory nonsense being issued by French govt. ministers (for example), from time to time when they also need to appease one faction or another.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's amusing how interventionist and protectionist the government is becoming when these were apparently the big concerns over Miliband.

Most of the time I suspect you could swap the party names on the manifestos and the same people would forcefully advocate how bad Labour/Tories are. What was then dangerous Marxist interventionism will become sensible conservatism sticking up for ordinary people against corporate interests whilst those advocating for it a year and a half ago will warn us of the cost to business and jobs. :disturbd:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Unless you're incompetent, if you're about to start important negotiations you don't do so by winding the other side up. I give the Government the benefit of the doubt that they're not incompetent and they're internal messages.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Really? So that must mean all the bluster from the EU about what the UK can have and what it can't is all incompetence then? Was Obama incompetent when he told the UK it'd go to the back of the queue? Tough negotiations often start with seemingly unreasonable positions being stated and then compromised on until the solution is found then it's back to 'normal' service...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's a tad different from stating that EU citizens are bargaining chips to accurately warning a country that trade negotiations with it are not a priority. And Brexiters have woken up to this fact. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7345581.html

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

https://twitter.com/Ed_Miliband/stat...98959222718464

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/10/23.png

UKIP seem to be happy, though.

https://twitter.com/oflynnmep/status/783313098505584641

Lastly and most ridiculously perhaps Arron Banks, he of bankrolling UKIP and Leave.EU fame, commenting earlier this year that he was in favour of remaining in the EEA and considered it a 'pragmatic step'.

Such views are now it seems bordering on traitorous.

https://twitter.com/rolandmcs/status/752164986730971136

---------- Post added at 12:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 ----------

The comments on doctors are genius. 'Dear highly trained and qualified professionals, we'd like to kick you all out in the next decade, so please hang around in the interim while we hope to train your replacements.'

The link is to an article noting medical degrees ended up in clearing. Weirdly enough treating a profession like something on your shoe puts people off wanting to spend years training to do it.

Presume we'll also produces nurses out of thin area given the government has cut their bursaries.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You have to remember a lot of these people are experts.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The low value pound has seemed to attract a lot of those pesky foreigners. York has been invaded by the Chinese; it's a disgrace.:rolleyes:

Its going to be years before the consequences of Brexit will be fully felt. I suspect a lot of people will regret being hoodwinked.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Doubtless, they will say these things would have happened anyway.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Heh.

It's their going after our companies while they're relatively cheap that worries more. I doubt they'll stop at ARM.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/10/22.png

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:30 ----------

This from the news editor of that well-known liberal lefty pro-remain blog, Guido Fawkes.

The FT writer Alan Beattie had these thoughts:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Wow!! What an expert Alan Beattie is!

I have never been a Liberal.

I have never been a Leaver.

I have since the 70's been "I don't want this ****"

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

His comments aren't aimed at you - they're aimed at the liberal-minded leavers who didn't think the Government would intervene in business affairs in the ways which it is suggesting eg details of foreign employees, price controls on utility companies.

---------- Post added at 14:26 ---------- Previous post was at 14:16 ----------

It's not a case of taking back control, it's a case of losing control. Alongside ARM, post-Brexit we've lost UK ownership of to Cath Kidston (Hong Kong), Odeon (China via AMC USA), and Poundland (South Africa).
Of course, the difficulty in all of these takeovers is whether they would have happened without Brexit anyway. Only long-terms stats will give us that informatioin.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Rather that than left wing internationalism :(

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's becoming the same thing now.

The right used to support NATO, Free-markets and Capitalism. All of which saw living standards in the West rise considerably and brought about the fall of the Berlin wall. Now all abandoned for a nationalistic and protectionist mindset. The far-left is more than happy with a lot of it. They hate NATO, they hate free trade, they hate capitalism. When it comes to foreign policy and international trade where really do the likes of Le Pen really differ from Corbyn? The main thing would be immigration but they, and Trump for that matter, are surprisingly united on many things.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Interesting points. I think it's hard to have a single left-right axis for politics these days. It's a lot more complicated than that.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Indeed. The classic example that comes to mind is Dan Hannan. He spent a while waxing lyrical about free markets and is in his own words an 'old whig' so pretty libertarian, and as a libertarian should be is perfectly relaxed about freedom of movement.

Going by this conference what he's getting instead is more market intervention than New Labour carried out, illiberal migration control and a bunch of extra red tape.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The clearer and scarier axis for me now is the veering towards authoritarianism. Worse still as long as people like the sound of the aims of the authoritarianism they don't seem bothered.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That's a very jobsworth attitude you have there .Mustn't whatever we do upset those pesky Eurocrats :rolleyes:



Why ? what could possibly be so important to Brussels about deporting a few scummy criminals and not letting them back .We've always been allowed to do it the only reason we don't more often is Brussels makes it so bloody hard.

---------- Post added at 18:06 ---------- Previous post was at 18:01 ----------

Why ,when we have left the EU those companies will not be able to employ foreign workers at lower wages and lower conditions ,instead they will have employ some of 2 million sitting on dole and pay a living wage

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's currently illegal to employ workers from different countries on different sets of conditions, no ifs or buts. That's called discrimination.

Paying a living wage is either up to the generosity of the employer or being compelled to by legislation.

It's really unclear as to what immigration we'll get post-Brexit. Some ministers have promised that construction, housing, agriculture, financial services and the NHS will all have unlimited immigration allowed. London has asked for unlimited immigration as well. Other ministers have said off the record that we'll be in the EEA so pretty much the same immigration as we have at the moment. Only time will tell.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Correct and according to this article http://www.tradingeconomics.com/unit.../job-vacancies there is currently around 746,000 available so those two million can start applying as they are available today, no ifs no buts

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

My 'jobsworth' attitude is about not throwing two fingers up to the rest of the world by breaking treaties.

Your world may end at our borders and the closest you get to doing business outside the UK working with resident foreigners here or paying for a drink in a bar while on holiday, mine doesn't. My financial wellbeing, along with many others, is dependent on the UK and European economies alongside, to a lesser extent, the rest of the world.

The less antagonism during this process the better for all concerned and something as petty as that isn't worth the hassle. When we're done with Brexit we can go door to door with deportation squads to our hearts' content if we so choose, and going by the way the BlueKIP rhetoric is ratcheting up shouldn't be long before that's on the table.

As far as all those foreigners stealing jobs at lower wages and accepting poorer conditions goes doesn't look like it.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/10/23.jpg

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

Theresa May's attitude over the past days has already gone down like a pile of vomit with the EU. We've been repeatedly told that we'll get a great trade because Germany want to sell us their goods, meanwhile the EU has repeatedly informed that we aren't getting any special treatment without accepting the four freedoms.

Much as our three stooges and others like to blow sunshine up our hindmost we clearly very badly underestimate what the EU means to at least some other members. Just as we're happy to put immigration ahead of economy looks as though they're happy to put solidarity ahead of economy.

Not just the politicians either.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rexit-trade-uk

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-brexit-stance

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

"Merkel appealed to German firms to show a united front with EU governments"

That's what's known as political posturing, only to be expected before negotiations of any kind. Same as May has done.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I don't think so! May is getting it in the neck from British industry at the moment!

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Believe it or not, I didn't vote for brexit expecting the economy to boom. I'm expecting to lose a considerable amount of money in the medium term (up to half a million). I voted out because I didn't want Great Britain to be controlled by an anti-democratic unelected cabal.
We will have to accept the consequences of our vote. The country will pull through but it will probably take 5+ years to get through the worst of it and once we have done that we will be prosperous once again and free of the EU's malevolent influence.
I voted out for purely patriotic reasons, which is ironic since I'm not even English but this country took my countrymen and parents in, gave them a place to live and jobs.
Are you English? If you are then it's ironic as it seems that I'm more loyal to this country than you are. If that is the case then shame on you.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yeah ,well you'd better tell that to all the companies employing foreign workers because they are cheaper .Building companies do it ,farmers do it and your local kebab shop is probably doing it .

One thing that is clear post brexit is that there will be no unlimited immigration ,we need to be getting the lazy slobs from in front of Jeremy Kyle and out to work ,get them picking fruit or digging holes instead of bringing thousands of immigrants in to do the work

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Why wait till post brexit, they can do it today, pre brexit , no ifs, no buts, no excuse

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Difference of course being Merkel received their support, and it was volunteered before she'd even openly spoken to them, while May's and Rudd's comments...

http://order-order.com/2016/10/05/bu...n-mays-speech/

In yet more evidence the government doesn't know arse from elbow and seems to think it can say whatever it wants in one setting and something completely different, and considerably more sane, in another:

https://www.ft.com/content/cc84f9ee-...7-e7ada1d123b1

Note, claiming direct quotes and no use of quotations to provide ambiguity.

---------- Post added at 21:33 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

Indeed! All those Bulgarians working in kebab shops, all those Poles picking fruit all year round. Get the lot of them gone.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Shame on you ,don't you know that doing that has caused the rest of the world to hate us and not want to sell their tellies and cornflakes to us

---------- Post added at 22:18 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

Seeing as you know all about what's going on in the deepest recesses of government i'm surprised you aren't running brexit yourself ,after all reading your posts you got all the answers and know exactly what needs to done .

In 5 yrs time when the UK is independent and still chugging along quite nicely i'm going to remind you of all the negative,scaremongering you've been doing of late

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That's a trap. The Japanese companies for example have talked previously about a transitional deal but not to 'await a trade agreement' but to slowly move operations to Europe. It's costly and disruptive for them to do so in the space of a year or two so they want a long goodbye.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

So everyone who voted to remain isn't loyal to the nation, is unpatriotic and should be ashamed. Gotcha.

Might want to tell the population of Gibraltar, who voted 95% to remain and just told the Spanish where to stick proposed shared sovereignty that would allow them to stay in the EU.

http://news.sky.com/story/gibraltar-...itain-10606648

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Does it ever strike you that his belief Brexit is going to cause economic damage and that the UK might actually be less wealthy outside the EU is just as genuine as your belief it will be fine?

What possible reason would he, after the vote, have to continue to scaremonger and lie? It's because he (we) aren't and it's a honestly held belief. Just as it was before the vote.

There is no need for that kind of talk and certainly when he hasn't directed any animosity towards you. You wouldn't like it if he talked to you like that.

People need to calm down here. The last page of posts has gotten quite personal.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'd turn the job down even if it were offered. In common with many I have no interest in it.

I do nothing special beyond reading things that don't confirm my own biases. It was doing such things that made me change my mind about the whole thing from being vehemently Brexit.

It even taught me some stuff about WTO membership, trade deals, most favoured nation status, etc, so I know why businesses are so concerned.

Maybe give it a shot some time.

Pretty funny seeing you comment on how the UK will be fine in 5 years, suggesting you expect no negative impact at all, while the post you quoted above mine was a guy expecting the pain to last 5+ years and potentially cost him personally half a million. Divergent opinions are always more interesting.

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:31 ----------

I wouldn't be surprised, but do you really see that much of a choice? Trade deals, even covering just goods, will take years. Financial services equivalence requires the EU's agreement, passporting Single Market access.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Actually, I'm British.

I was born in Scotland, but have spent the best part of the last 40 odd years in England (apart from a lot of the the time I spent as a member of HM Armed Forces, but obviously I am not loyal to my country because I voted to remain).

Simplistic divisive statements from any part of the spectrum don't help progress a solution to a very complex issue.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm sorry Damien but you seriously need to read his posts ,all he does is belittle anyone with a different idea to his own ,it's what he does

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You call it belittling, I call it having a constructive mature debate

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I assume you're British or a citizen of the commonwealth otherwise you wouldn't have been able to vote? :confused:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I know that I agree with him more than I do with you...but I genuinely don't think he's belittling anyone. It always helps in debate to provide links to information otherwise facts can be disputed which in not constructive. Ignitinonet provides links in bucketloads.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I do ,all the time ,trouble is you don't approve of the stuff i and others read so you constantly belittle our opinions


I have never said that at all ,i have no idea what negative impact their may or may not be and neither do you ,it may well be that Brexit proves to be the best thing UKplc has ever done or the good old USofA will once again send the world into the biggest recession it's ever seen ,you don't know and i don't know but rest assured the best thing we can do is react to what we do know and that is that the EU is failing and failing fast

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

How does anyone except you know what you read? If anyone knows that then they're probably working for GCHQ and not participating on internet forums! :)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yes ignit is good with links he provided many to support his leave position when he truly believed in that until a few days before the vote when he changed and became a remain supporter and some of the links and info he puts forward now he rubbished before so being honest i don't know how to take him or what he truly believes in. Brexit is happening there is no going back and the process isn't going to be reversed so it's time to make the best of it and yes there will be difficult times ahead but lets not pretend that being a member of the EU was all roses and unicorns because there were more then a few difficult times when we were a member.

In the mid to longterm i believe the UK will prosper more out of the EU then in it and i don't think the EU has much of a longterm future I'd be stunned if it still exists in thirty years. We are far from the only nation with big concerns about the EU or it's direction and those concerns are systematically ignored by brussels and the EU leadership with nothing more then hot air given to the subject of reform but never doing anything meaningful that's why many in the UK voted to leave.

End of the day no one on here knows exactly whats going on or what one side or the other really knows or even how the negotiations will go it's all a load of hot air till things start. Some of us may be right some of us may be wrong i think it's more likely the real situation will be a mix of good and bad on both sides with neither getting everything they want.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Millions of patriots voted to remain. They voted for the UK to continue punching above its weight in Europe. They voted for the UK to continue to veto matters they disagreed with like a single European army. They voted for the UK to continue to influence legislation that will impact it whether in or out of Europe. They voted to listen to NATO when they said that Europe was safer with the UK in the EU. They listened to the leader of the free world, President Obama, when he said as a loyal friend of the UK that the US would prefer us to remain in the EU championing our shared values.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'll be stunned if it still exists in 10 yrs!

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Never say never, things can always change, after all you voted for change

We are where we are, I don't agree with it, but I certainly don't want it to be worse

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

:rofl:is it 1st of April ?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

When? The last time you tried providing 'evidence' to me it was from a campaign group and quite literally included nothing negative to the campaign. Other than that from things like the obsession with being in the EEA preventing our trading outside it to a bunch of other things I feel like everyone is just far too entrenched.

---------- Post added at 08:31 ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 ----------

Glad you agree that there's no guarantee. I doubt I'll be on here in 5 years going by my planned schedule. Certainly not enough to be concerning myself with Current Affairs :)

---------- Post added at 08:33 ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 ----------

Every day is the 1st of April in Express-land.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I thought it was yesterday when I heard Amber Rudd's speech. Then I listened to this. https://www.facebook.com/LBC/videos/...8/?pnref=story