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Damien 06-11-2018 14:48
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969447)
And the ones who really want to leave like me - do not give a shit one way or the other, leaving was not just about money FFS, we just want to get out of that cancerous club.
Ok but a lot of people will feel differently if it's their money that's going. How many people will feel the same when their jobs/income might be hit?

Mick 06-11-2018 16:38
Re: Brexit
 
Sorry don't believe that crap - it's project fear that is just utter garbage.

---------- Post added at 16:38 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35969449)
In the spirit of 'innocent until proven guilty', in what way have we been 'robbed and conned' and what judicial actions have rectified this situation?
Rubbish - it is not in the spirit of anything. They have conned us for many years, and it's easy - we put MORE in than we get out, it's a total con job!!!

Damien 06-11-2018 16:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969462)
Sorry don't believe that crap - it's project fear that is just utter garbage.
Ok but it's not inconceivable that when we leave an institution whose mechanisms we've used as a the basis for many of our cross border trade deals, transport and law that there might be disruption. My point is if everything doesn't just continue as normal then we will see what the actual level of pain the public will be willing to put up with.

denphone 06-11-2018 16:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35969465)
Ok but it's not inconceivable that when we leave an institution whose mechanisms we've used as a the basis for many of our cross border trade deals, transport and law that there might be disruption. My point is if everything doesn't just continue as normal then we will see what the actual level of pain the public will be willing to put up with.
Lets hope the pain does not get too bad but rest assured if it does there will inevitably be a weeping and gnashing of teeth from some of the public and rest assured they will be looking for someone to blame for their pain.

Sephiroth 06-11-2018 17:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx;35969449[COLOR="Red"
]In the spirit of 'innocent until proven guilty'[/COLOR], in what way have we been 'robbed and conned' and what judicial actions have rectified this situation?
Are you real? According the EU the status of "innocent until proven guilty" flies in the face of both the views of 17 million people and the bleedin' obvious.

We've been conned on Fisheries policy, conned on reform of the CAP (Blair), conned on the Working Time Directive to name just three.

The EU are not negotiating in good faith - they just want to screw us over.

Hugh 06-11-2018 17:30
Re: Brexit
 
Conned on the Working Time Directive?

How?

As an employee, you can opt-out of the WTD - the Directive gives the employee the choice, rather than the employer forcing it on someone.

Also, I think it's pretty reasonable not to ask someone to work over 48 hours a week for over 17 weeks - ever heard of work/life balance?

If the following things are being conned, bring it on...

Quote:
a limit to weekly working hours, which must not exceed 48 hours on average, including any overtime
a minimum daily rest period of 11 consecutive hours in every 24
a rest break during working hours if the worker is on duty for longer than 6 hours
a minimum weekly rest period of 24 uninterrupted hours for each 7-day period, in addition to the 11 hours' daily rest
paid annual leave of at least 4 weeks per year
extra protection for night work, e.g. average working hours must not exceed 8 hours per 24-hour period

Sephiroth 06-11-2018 17:46
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35969476)
Conned on the Working Time Directive?

How?

As an employee, you can opt-out of the WTD - the Directive gives the employee the choice, rather than the employer forcing it on someone.

Also, I think it's pretty reasonable not to ask someone to work over 48 hours a week for over 17 weeks - ever heard of work/life balance?

If the following things are being conned, bring it on...
So you could only pull out one of my list that you don't think was a con. Rather telling.

It was a con on two fronts:

1/
When the UK was prepared to veto the WTD, they changed it to a H&S measure that only required a qualified majority.

2/
France was determined to get the WTD through because of its ridiculous labour laws that gave the UK an advantage over France.

OLD BOY 06-11-2018 18:04
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35969450)
Ok but a lot of people will feel differently if it's their money that's going. How many people will feel the same when their jobs/income might be hit?
How do you work out that all these jobs are at risk when we will continue to trade with the EU as well as forge new trade deals, creating even more jobs?

RichardCoulter 06-11-2018 18:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35969476)
Conned on the Working Time Directive?

How?

As an employee, you can opt-out of the WTD - the Directive gives the employee the choice, rather than the employer forcing it on someone.

Also, I think it's pretty reasonable not to ask someone to work over 48 hours a week for over 17 weeks - ever heard of work/life balance?

If the following things are being conned, bring it on...
Most employees don't really have the choice though in the real world, just as they don't regarding Sunday working.

Hugh 06-11-2018 18:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969479)
So you could only pull out one of my list that you don't think was a con. Rather telling.

It was a con on two fronts:

1/
When the UK was prepared to veto the WTD, they changed it to a H&S measure that only required a qualified majority.

2/
France was determined to get the WTD through because of its ridiculous labour laws that gave the UK an advantage over France.
i agreed with you on the other two, but you avoided my question on why the WTD is a bad thing...

The process may not have been ideal, but the outcome was optimal (unless you are an employer who didn’t want to give your employees decent holidays or working hours).

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:12 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35969485)
Most employees don't really have the choice though in the real world, just as they don't regarding Sunday working.
Yes, they do - it’s illegal to force employees to opt out.

---------- Post added at 18:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969484)
How do you work out that all these jobs are at risk when we will continue to trade with the EU as well as forge new trade deals, creating even more jobs?
And who will forge new trade deals with us, when if we take a no deal Brexit and walk away, we show we are not willing to honour deals?

OLD BOY 06-11-2018 18:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35969487)
i agreed with you on the other two, but you avoided my question on why the WTD is a bad thing...

The process may not have been ideal, but the outcome was optimal (unless you are an employer who didn’t want to give your employees decent holidays or working hours).

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:12 ----------

Yes, they do - it’s illegal to force employees to opt out.

---------- Post added at 18:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

And who will forge new trade deals with us, when if we take a no deal Brexit and walk away, we show we are not willing to honour deals?
It is perfectly acceptable under EU rules to give notice of leaving. Article 50.

jonbxx 06-11-2018 19:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969462)
Sorry don't believe that crap - it's project fear that is just utter garbage.

---------- Post added at 16:38 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------



Rubbish - it is not in the spirit of anything. They have conned us for many years, and it's easy - we put MORE in than we get out, it's a total con job!!!
Our successive governments have agreed to do this over many years, it wasn't stolen from us. Were these governments incompetent, negligent or corrupt?

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:03 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969479)
So you could only pull out one of my list that you don't think was a con. Rather telling.

It was a con on two fronts:

1/
When the UK was prepared to veto the WTD, they changed it to a H&S measure that only required a qualified majority.

2/
France was determined to get the WTD through because of its ridiculous labour laws that gave the UK an advantage over France.
Does working long hours affect the health and safety of employees?

1andrew1 06-11-2018 19:20
Re: Brexit
 
I understand that Banks got some bad news today. No wonder Brexiters are trying to discuss anything else.
https://news.sky.com/story/arron-ban...aches-11546121

Mick 06-11-2018 19:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969500)
I understand that Banks got some bad news today. No wonder Brexiters are trying to discuss anything else.
https://news.sky.com/story/arron-ban...aches-11546121
Wtf is this obsession with Banks FFS ?

No wonder nothing.

Banks is a multi millionaire, the fines imposed are small change to him - it's not bad news for him or Brexiteers.

- you keep going on about him but he did not help me make my decision to vote leave and I am damn well sure that goes for millions of others. There is nothing to discuss about Banks.

RichardCoulter 06-11-2018 19:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35969487)
i agreed with you on the other two, but you avoided my question on why the WTD is a bad thing...

The process may not have been ideal, but the outcome was optimal (unless you are an employer who didn’t want to give your employees decent holidays or working hours).

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:12 ----------

Yes, they do - it’s illegal to force employees to opt out.

---------- Post added at 18:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

And who will forge new trade deals with us, when if we take a no deal Brexit and walk away, we show we are not willing to honour deals?
Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. However, force isn't usually used, it's much more subtle than that and it's sometimes the employee who opts out 'voluntarily', even when they don't want to.

In the real world staff are afraid that not doing so when 'encouraged' to could ruin promotion prospects or could make them a primary consideration should redundancies ever become neccessary because they fear not being viewed as a team player or it being suggested that they don't put the company first.

In a worst case scenario, it's not too difficult for employers to find excuses to get rid of somebody.


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