Cable Forum - Russia has invaded Ukraine

Santa Fe was forced to the surface by naval aviation, then strafed, then finally had a missile through its hull that went in one side and out the other, forcing the crew to make for land and abandon ship. It absolutely was destroyed by the RN, even though it didn’t sink immediately. It would be churlish to deny the RN a kill in those circumstances - though I did say ‘destroyed’, not ‘sunk’. Rostov-on-Don was likewise destroyed, but not sunk, being in dry dock at the time.

After surrendering to British forces a skeleton crew, under guard, was ordered to move Santa Fe to a different pier. It sank during that manoeuvre, though nobody drowned (one Argentine sailor was mistakenly shot and killed because his captor believed he might be trying to scuttle it). The Argentines never claimed to have scuttled the boat - they said a hatch had been left open in the confusion leading it to take on water and sink. The harbour was shallow enough that the conning tower remained above the surface.

Apologies Chris, just noticed the nuance in "both destroyed by British" missiles. Don't know how I missed that.

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Hugh	16-09-2023 14:06

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

@jimmyrushton

Quote:

A significant change of stance from the Biden administration, which had previously publicly upheld Ukraine's right to strike targets within Russian borders, but only with weapon systems not provided by the United States.

https://kyivindependent.com/blinken-...vided-weapons/

Quote:

While Washington "does not encourage nor enable" Ukraine to use U.S.-supplied weapon systems outside of the country, it is "fundamentally" Kyiv's decision how to use those weapons, U.S. State Secretary Antony Blinken said at a press conference.

A journalist asked Blinken about the U.S.'s hesitation to provide Ukraine with long-range Army Tactical Missile Systems (ATACMS) allegedly caused by fears Kyiv would use them to strike Russian soil.

"When it comes to how Ukrainians use these systems, the targeting decisions are theirs. They're not ours," the official replied.

"And they (Ukrainians) have to make judgments about what can be most effective in working to regain their full sovereignty, their territorial integrity," added the official.

Chris

16-09-2023 14:17

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Again, the US administration has been dragged kicking and screaming to its present position by facts on the ground.

It’s pretty clear by now that US policy is to wear down Russia but prevent a total collapse of Russia itself. The spectre of the break-up of the USSR still haunts Washington and they don’t want a repeat of it. So Ukraine can win, but not so spectacularly that Mother Russia itself implodes.

Unfortunately for the US, they’re not the only ones with a say in all this. Europe, and especially Eastern Europe which has lively and recent memory of what it’s actually like to live under Moscow’s shadow, has been throwing everything it can into Ukraine. In terms of sheer quantity of kit that might not be as much as the US, but in terms of capability, German-built Leopard tanks and Franco-British Scalp-Storm Shadow cruise missiles represent capabilities the US has attempted to keep out of the theatre. Furthermore the Ukrainians have had an incentive to develop long-range strike capabilities of their own.

And the end result of all this is that none of the long-range strike capability Ukraine now has, is under any sort of political control or influence from Washington. In acknowledging Ukrainian agency in this area, Blinken is really just acknowledging the inevitable failure of a short-sighted policy that has achieved nothing for the US and has cost a lot of Ukrainian lives as the war has ground on when deep-strike capability just might have hastened Russia’s collapse and shortened the conflict.

Pierre

17-09-2023 21:00

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Tell us we’re at war with Russia, without saying we’re at war with Russia.

Chris

17-09-2023 21:25

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36160179)

Tell us we’re at war with Russia, without saying we’re at war with Russia.

In 1982 we were told we were in conflict with Argentina, not at war. In Russia right now they’re still being told a special military operation is underway on the territory of Ukraine. A state of war does not exist, apparently.

Declarations of war went right out of fashion in the middle of the last century. But this walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, and we refrain from calling it a duck only because nobody wants to end up barbecued, crispy and shredded.

jfman

17-09-2023 22:07

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36160179)

Tell us we’re at war with Russia, without saying we’re at war with Russia.

The Zelensky regime is down to conscripting the disabled previously exempt and asking for the EU to return Ukrainian men who don’t want to fight. I give it another 12 months max and they run out of meat for the grinder.

Longer range weapons just makes for good PR to distract from what’s happening on the ground.

Chris

17-09-2023 22:13

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36160182)

I see you’re not even bothering to hide the fact that you’re laundering Russian talking points now :rofl:

jfman

17-09-2023 22:18

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36160183)

I see you’re not even bothering to hide the fact that you’re laundering Russian talking points now :rofl:

Is it true or not? If it’s true I’m not laundering anything.

For someone who predicted the collapse of Russia a mere five posts ago I get a sense of a man in a glass house throwing stones.

Sephiroth

17-09-2023 22:33

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36160182)

Is there any solid evidence for the highlighted assertion?

Chris

17-09-2023 23:05

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36160187)

Is there any solid evidence for the highlighted assertion?

An interesting question, but the real kicker in Jfman’s post is his giveaway use of the phrase ‘Zelensky regime’ - casual delegitimisation of the sort used by Russian trolls, bots, state TV propagandists and anyone else interested in undermining what is after all a democratically elected and internationally recognised government.

Whoever he’s getting his talking points from is ultimately being fed by the Russian propaganda machine and any ‘facts’ he lays down here ought therefore to be treated critically.

Jaymoss

17-09-2023 23:45

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36160188)

He is only power due to a coup in 2014 though. It suited the West to support him at the time. Does that make him legitimate ? I dunno

Hugh	17-09-2023 23:46

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36160187)

Is there any solid evidence for the highlighted assertion?

He probably means this…

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraines...-mobilization/

Quote:

Ukraine's defense ministry has approved an amended list of medical conditions which exempt Ukrainians from military service, the Ukrainian Military Pages reported on Sept. 3.

According to the report, amendments to the law were made on Aug. 18 and entered into force on Aug. 25.

From now on, people with clinically cured tuberculosis, viral hepatitis, slowly progressing blood diseases, thyroid gland diseases with minor functional disorders, and those who are HIV-positive but without symptoms, are considered still fit for military service.

In addition, people suffering from mild mental disorders, neurotic disorders, slowly progressive diseases of the central nervous system and others have been added to the list.

jfman

18-09-2023 00:13

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36160188)

He’s banned opposition parties, trade unions and (as far as I can tell) elections. In no way, shape or form can that be considered democratic. Especially when your number one policy is to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men by conscription.

Both of my claims have been reported in the Ukrainian press.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/21242
https://kyivindependent.com/ukraines...-mobilization/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36160189)

He is only power due to a coup in 2014 though. It suited the West to support him at the time. Does that make him legitimate ? I dunno

:clap:

1andrew1

18-09-2023 00:25

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36160189)

He is only power due to a coup in 2014 though. It suited the West to support him at the time. Does that make him legitimate ? I dunno

Zelensky was elected President in 2019 not 2014.

It was his predecessor Poroshenko who was elected after an uprising overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian government.

jfman

18-09-2023 00:34

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36160194)

Zelensky was elected President in 2019 not 2014.

It was his predecessor Poroshenko who was elected after an uprising overthrew Ukraine's pro-Russian government.

While the coup didn’t directly elect Zelensky it laid the ground work.

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