Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

If you deem it to be insulting or if it causes you distress then yes, it is.

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The facts (and indeed the law) say different.

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

but there is no way on the face of the earth I would get a conviction out of it is there?

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

I'm not sure what a statistical analysis of prosecutions is supposed to prove? At the heart of this issue remains definitions of terms such as 'reasonable' (used in the legislation) and 'verbal abuse or insults' (used in the Civitas document).

How high, exactly, do the courts place the bar on this? At what point does 'reasonable' commentary become 'verbal abuse'?

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

Why not? It's a prosecutable offence.

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When the person on the receiving end of it deems it to be distressful, abusive or insulting to them.

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

Thanks for info Mr A

The Law really is an ass but I should not say in case the law gets upset and does me lol

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

Oh come on ... that won't do at all and I'm pretty sure you know it. ;)

You're proposing a situation where this happens:

Complainant: I feel insulted.
Defendant: My comments were a reasonable expression of my personal feelings.
Complainant: But I feel insulted.
Beak: Guilty as charged.

Section 5(1) of the Act creates an offence, but 5(3)(c) creates a defence. If the defence is valid, you can't just go round in a circle and trump it by re-stating the offence.

Now, once again, I ask out of genuine interest for the views of one who is knowledgeable in these things: where do the courts generally set the bar, beyond which a defence of 'reasonable' comment is no longer acceptable? What makes the comment 'unreasonable'?

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

(3)It is a defence for the accused to prove—

(a)that he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress, or
(b)that he was inside a dwelling and had no reason to believe that the words or behaviour used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation displayed, would be heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling, or
(c)that his conduct was reasonable.

That seems to show that intent is required

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

The perception / interpretation of the court as to what is "reasonable" in the context of society - racism and homophobia most certainly are not.

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Marty, What you think it "seems" to say and what it actually says are two very different things - that's the beauty of the law.

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

But you're still skirting around the issue rather than tackling it head-on. There is a level at which it cannot be a crime for a person to express a personal view about homosexuality (it happens, for example, in church pulpits).

Were the application as absolute as you are suggesting, it would be an offence to print the Bible or to read certain passages of it aloud in public. Yet clearly Christian ministers are not being rounded up and prosecuted en masse. I mention Christianity as it's an example I'm familiar with. I daresay there are others.

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

no i'm pretty sure that it means intent must be shown,i would be curious as to what your interpretation of it is

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

Personally I would think there has to be intention to cause offence.

Stating clearly and calmly "I don't like gays" wouldn't earn you many friends but wouldn't get you a night in the cells.
Screaming "You're a *bleeping* *bleep* and I think you should all burn in hell" will almost certainly get you a pair of shiny bracelets linked in the middle and a night in one or her majesties finest B&B establishments for the evening.

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

Context Chris, context.

The christian minister / church analogy is a perfectly defensible (as such - non prosecutable) scenario in that those doing as you posit are quoting the "word" of a third party in the context of their job.

They could, arguably, offer the defence that they are exercising their religious freedom (which is also protected under the Public Order Act).

Marty

Section 5 of the Public Order Act "Harassment, alarm or distress" makes no mention of "intent". The offences stated are prosecutable under that particular section whether intentional or not.

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

It is a defence ,as stated in the act ,that a person has no reason to believe that someone is likely to be caused harassment,alarm or distress ,in other words ..did not intend offence to anyone .It also has to be noted that to cause distress or harassment by saying something like "i don't like gays" has to be directed to someone ,simply stating an opinion in general cannot cause either .If a person says "i don't like you because you are gay"you may have a point especially if it is said in a threatening manner

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

Again, Section 5 of the Public Order Act "Harassment, alarm or distress" makes no mention of "intent".

Additionally it is not a defence for a defendant to "state" that he or she had "no reason to believe that someone is likely to be caused harassment,alarm or distress" the defence requires the defendant to prove that to be the case.

"(3)It is a defence for the accused to prove"

As such the opinion of the defendant as to whether his / her statements were insulting or causing distress - whether directed at an individual or not - is irrelevant.

Re: Gay couple claim they were ejected from pub for kissing
 

I agree completely - this is the point I have been trying to make. Karrington asserted earlier that making certain statements was simply 'unlawful', without any qualification at all. My position is that it plainly is not unlawful in any absolute sense. There is a defence, explicitly stated in the Act right alongside the offence itself.

It is for the courts to weigh up the defence in each case, but a defence there most certainly is, and I am quite sure it is not limited to preachers with Bibles (or any other religious text for that matter).