Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

But, as you say yourself "you find people of all races there". In other cities there are high densities of Italians, Jews, Chinese, Asians or whatever in certain areas, but nobody seems to think that *they* are a threat to our society.

No, but yet again I point out that some people are still talking as if *every* Muslim should be a suspected terrorist.
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No, it means stopping people when you have *reasonable grounds* for stopping them.

It does *NOT* simply mean that you stop them because they match a certain description (Middle Eastern, Muslim, Beard, Robes, Funny Hat, whatever) but because you have *some* evidence that they may be up to no good.

And *HOW* are you going to tell the innocent people from the "fanatics"? Stop and question them all? Suspect *everyone* who has been seen in the company of a "fanatic"? Hassle anyone who dresses in a certain way?

This is not "reasonable" this is ridiculous.

A "form" of intelligence? Yes.

Short sighted, bigotted, prejudiced, narrow minded and insensitive, but, yes, it's definitely a "form" of intelligence :rolleyes:

Let's say that a certain person who uses the alias timewarrior2001 was arrested for being a suspected terrorist. Then the Police discover that he messages on Cable Forum. Since he's swapped messages with all those people the Police decide to bring in all the members of Cable Forum for questioning "just to be on the safe side".

Wow, what an "intelligent" and "reasonable" use of resources... :rolleyes:

You are free to believe whatever you want. I am also free to ignore ridiculous comments like this that add nothing to the debate and do not give extra credibility to your arguments.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

If the policing was intelligence led I don't they'd be getting yer average Plod to do stop and search.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Back then British society was not at all tolerant, and the 'immigrants' had no other choice than to integrate into British society, rather than importing their own variation of it.

So that situation cannot be compared to that of today, where any notion that Britain has any kind of indigenous culture that deserves preserving, is always subsumed by the need for acceptance of alien cultures.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Please quit with your disrespectful comments, it's a Kufie not a "funny hat"


It's called questioning a suspect Graham, part of the legal process, it does not assume guilt.

Rather than mocking the post Graham, why not actually explain why you feel that way about the idea of questioning people who support Abu Hamza and his terrorist supporting views?

Firstly, until they found out sufficient evidence to suggest that TW was a terrorist, they wouldn't expand their investigation to this forum.
However, if they had sufficient evidence then they could aquire a warrent to find out if TW had been exchanging terrorist related PM's with anyone.
If he had, then those people would be put under survealance, not dragged in for questioning.

Again with the mocking...

------


Now, getting back to the matter at hand and I guess I should specifically state I am not directing this at graham, one of the issues with the asian community is their banding together.
If an asian has broken the law there is likely to be a wall of silence while the suspect is rushed out of the country.
It happens a lot in rape/murder cases.
Several of the Muslims I work with have commented that the intelligence services will find it hard to recruit Muslims in the war against terror because it is seen as betraying your brother to turn them in.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I agree, and even if the question was considered valid, the answer would probably have to be 'all 4'.

What this would mean is that 'targetting terrorists' cannot include stop & search, because it might lead to more Muslims being stopped than anyone else?

Admittedly, it's a blunt tool, because it relies on 'luck' in catching a terrorist. If, however, a police officer has suspicion of any individual, he should not have to worry himself about their cultural ethnicity before making a decision to stop & search.
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Wonder who would be safest?

Lots of people around Britain would welcome a visible police presence to deter crime and anti-social behaviour.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1160846.stm

Seems that maybe they're not as accomodating as we're expected to be.

But where is the intelligence going to come from? It is quite clear that to some Muslims the fact that we're talking about Islamic terrorists means that they've got problems informing on them.
Can't see a lot of intelligence turning up from that quarter.

Someone said something about Snarks and how repetition proves nothing?

I don't believe support for this is driven by selfishness - simply if it doesn't directly affect someone, then they're hardly going to have a strong opinion against it.

Maybe, maybe not. Like in most of these situations we don't have enough facts to determine why it happened the way it did.

If the government had intended to arrest these people, it would have sent the police after them, not the SAS.
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Maybe not, but they'd certainly start looking at everyone he'd communicated with to see what had passed between them. And then if anything didn't look right, they might start looking at others more closely, even bring them in, just to be on the safe side.

This is suspicion by association, and I'd consider it rather incompetent if the police did not examine closely the activities of associates of suspected terrorists.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Tiime to calm down people - and lets have a few less personal digs at people who don't agree with your views. It is not the person who shouts loudest who is right. We don't like closing topics, but this one is heading that way if things don't improve. :cool:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

This is a very important point in this debate, since it goes directly against the expectation that some seem to have of the support we might get (or risk losing) from the Muslim community.

If they put Islam before justice or the safety of their (host) nation, then they have alienated themselves from us already.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Ya know I was interested in this thread till I read some of the disrespectful comments on it. Thnkafully none have been aimed at me yet so I guess really I shouldn't try defending any of you. The mere fact that there is some islamaphobia in here and that we are using that as an excuse to trun on one anotherr shows how much things have degraded.

Firstly, Muslims are people, just like you and I. The vast majority of them are not terrorists. The belief that some, including myself, are perpertrating is that they do not deserve to be stopped anymore than Joe Blogs does. Just becasue a small minority of those practising Islam are fanatical doesn't mean that each and every one of them are. NEither are they all middle Eastern or of Asian or Indian appearnacve. The stereotype in this thread is that all Muslims must have beards and wear identifiable clothing, strangely just like most from the Mid East and other Asian countries do. As I have pointed out before most Muslims are of very different appearance. If we are targeting one small section because they allegedly have more fanatical beliefs then in the interest of fairness we should be targeting Mr Smith from up the road who has converted to Islam.

Opinions are fine. It's when it gets to thread bashing or reply bashing things aren't fine. You are debting opinions not how one of you responds to posts or how that post is worded. I reckon all of you are as bad as one another !!

Sian

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

There is no islamophobia on my part.
I'd feel the same if the threat was from Scotland.....or much more likely, Wales :D

But in all seriousness, isnt this the point, people are using the fact thats its Islam to intimidate others into keeping quiet or we'll call you racist?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Some posts have been considered, others less so and there has definitely been more than a hint of Islamophobia in some.

I do not think that those who have argued against this measure on both practical and moral grounds have acted 'because it's Islam' and threatened to call people racist. If someone makes a post on this or any other thread which makes sweeping generalisations or pours opprobrium on people because they are of a different race, religion or culture, or because that poster has no understanding of, or interest in understanding a different race, religion or culture, then it may be legitimate to point out they are being racist ( and my own rule is always to be wary of a post beginning "I'm no racist but...." ;)

Personally though, I think this debate has run its course as little in the way of fresh ideas are being brought to the table from either side.


EDIT: Can't give you a greeny again I'm afraid Seti!

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

OOoooOOO just cos we beat the Scots over the weekend !!! :LOL: Anyway my mates call me the Welsh Terrorist. I dunno why though :angel:

and its ok Andy i will give you one


um um a greenie i mean. Um I can't they say I have to spread meself around :D

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Nice to see things have changed so much (at least in regard to Muslims)!

Why did they have "no other choice"? Or was it that, as the next generation came along, they *became* part of British Society?

So what *is* "British indigenous culture"?
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1) I wasn't aware of the name, thank you for the information.

2) The only "disrespect" there is directed at those who *would* stop someone because they match a certain description and I doubt very much whether they would know or even *care* what the hat was called.

There is also a part of the legal process called "reasonable grounds for suspicion".

The quote that was in response to was "They are looking for a threat from islamic fanatics," now do you assume that *everyone* who looks and dresses a certain way is a potential fanatic? Well, you'd have to if you're going to question them and consider them a suspect...!!!

Whoops, there goes a fast one...! Catch it, quick...!!!

Your statement above is *exactly* the sort of thing that I "feel that way", because you are making an *ASSUMPTION* that these people "support Abu Hamza and his terrorist supporting views" without any *EVIDENCE*!!!

How do *YOU* know? Are you a member of the Security Services??

But, but...!!! Hang on! This is from the same person who in response to "And *HOW* are you going to tell the innocent people from the "fanatics"? " replied:

So now you're saying that they *wouldn't* be questioned, but that the Police would expend even *more* manpower and resources keeping them under surveillance???

No, stating an opinion about those comments

And you don't grass your mates up to the Police, teacher, whoever, no matter whether you're black, white, asian or anything else.

Don't try to imply that this is *exclusive* to Muslims.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Think there's some confusion about 'integration' which enables cultural traditions to be maintained within a wider society, and 'assimilation' which requires effective renunciation of cultural heritage. The Scots, for example, may be assertively Scottish and yet integrated within English society.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Ah, I wondered how long it would take to mention that old chestnut "Islamophobia". Do you think Andy is showing "Policephobia" when he mentions the SUS laws (which I do remember)? Or am I guilty of "Liberalphobia" by disagreeing with him? Ye Gods, you'll be shouting "racist" next.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

It seems pretty damn accommodating to me.

I have answered this one several times already. We have to develop policies where the Muslim community would consider it to be worthwhile providing information instead of alienating them.

There is a difference between simply saying something again and again and a reasonable extrapolation based on known facts.

A Stop and Search policy directed against Muslims or Blacks or Irish people isn't going to directly affect me, yet *I* have a strong opinion against it because *I* can see that such things, if allowed to run unchecked will eventually affect *everyone*!

I agree. But there is a difference between "examining activities" and bringing them in for questioning simply because of their association with someone which is the point I'm trying to make.
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So does that make them "fair game"?

Or does it mean that we should rethink our policies to try and get them back onto *our* side?
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I thought it was that people were using the fact that someone being Islamic is seemingly enough to suspect them of being a potential terrorist...