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-   -   Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33712196)

mrmistoffelees 05-04-2025 19:07
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45rpm (Post 36193999)
I don't think Israel did break the ceasefire, it came to an end.

There was a ceasefire broken in a most intense, extreme and unprecedented way back in October 23. What do you think about that andrew ???????
Semantics , the ceasefire ended due to Israel’s renewed air strikes.

Using hamas’s heinous actions back in October 2023 to justify Israel’s response is juvenile logic. War in any shape or form has rules regardless of who the combatants are. The Israeli government believe that they can act without impunity and that any challenge or attempt to hold them accountable for their actions is met by unjustified cries of anti semitism.

I’ve got a lot of friends in Tel Aviv & Herzliya and in the time I spent in Israel everyone I met was lovely and just wanted to live in peace.

But, the Israeli government themselves ? I’d get them & Hamas put them somewhere and set lots of hungry animals on them

Pierre 05-04-2025 21:25
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36194007)
Using hamas’s heinous actions back in October 2023 to justify Israel’s response is juvenile logic.
Yet, 100% accurate.

mrmistoffelees 06-04-2025 07:55
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36194028)
Yet, 100% accurate.
And 100% wrong

45rpm 06-04-2025 10:50
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36194007)
Semantics , the ceasefire ended due to Israel’s renewed air strikes.

Using hamas’s heinous actions back in October 2023 to justify Israel’s response is juvenile logic.
OK, so what would you have done in response?

ianch99 06-04-2025 12:28
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45rpm (Post 36194044)
OK, so what would you have done in response?
Not what Israel has done. When you have condemned terrorists for killing 100's of civilians, going on to kill tens of 1000's of civilians, murdering journalists and emergency workers is not a good look.

When you have large numbers of the Israeli population supporting what the IDF is doing and you have the USA actively supporting them plus suppressing any dissent then what controls remain in place? The IDF can literally commit any crime with impunity.

For example,

Majority of Israelis support Trump's Gaza plan, relocation of Palestinians in exclusive 'Post' poll

Quote:
Trump's Gaza plan has large support from Netanyahu, coalition voters • 10% say plan is morally reprehensible, 35% want Jewish state 'from river to sea'

Almost two-thirds of Israelis (65%) support US President Donald Trump’s plan to take over Gaza and believe it is the best solution to end the war in the coastal enclave, a Jerusalem Post poll revealed on Tuesday.
"'from river to sea" - where have I heard that saying before?

Sephiroth 06-04-2025 12:37
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36194048)
Not what Israel has done. When you have condemned terrorists for killing 100's of civilians, going on to kill tens of 1000's of civilians, murdering journalists and emergency workers is not a good look.

When you have large numbers of the Israeli population supporting what the IDF is doing and you have the USA actively supporting them plus suppressing any dissent then what controls remain in place? The IDF can literally commit any crime with impunity.

For example,

Majority of Israelis support Trump's Gaza plan, relocation of Palestinians in exclusive 'Post' poll



"'from river to sea" - where have I heard that saying before?
Disregarding Trump and his ridiculous behaviour, if Hamas had released the cruelly taken hostages, very few Gazan civilians would have died. As I said before, it's on Hamas.

Btw, 'From the river to the sea' says it all. The one Middle East democracy is surrounded by enemies who would wish all Israelis dead.

jfman 06-04-2025 12:42
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194050)
Disregarding Trump and his ridiculous behaviour, if Hamas had released the cruelly taken hostages, very few Gazan civilians would have died. As I said before, it's on Hamas.

Btw, 'From the river to the sea' says it all. The one Middle East democracy is surrounded by enemies who would wish all Israelis dead.
There’s no evidence that Israel wouldn’t have continued its borderline genocidal campaign even if Hamas had released the hostages. The aim is to “eliminate Hamas”; with such a broad definition as to include the destruction of schools, mosques, churches, universities, hospitals, energy infrastructure and turning off the water supply.

It’s a simplistic retort to absolve Israel from blame - nothing more and nothing less.

Even if Israel had stated that as their position - why would anyone trust them not to move the goalposts? Just as we went from “we don’t bomb hospitals” to “we do bomb hospitals”, and “we don’t summarily execute medical workers” to “well, now that there’s a video, maybe we made mistakes”.

ianch99 06-04-2025 12:48
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194050)
Disregarding Trump and his ridiculous behaviour, if Hamas had released the cruelly taken hostages, very few Gazan civilians would have died. As I said before, it's on Hamas.

Btw, 'From the river to the sea' says it all. The one Middle East democracy is surrounded by enemies who would wish all Israelis dead.
The irony. The 'phrase From the river to the sea' does indeed say it all. From the Likud original party charter:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...he-likud-party

Quote:
The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
This gives you some context as to what motivates the current Israeli administrations mindset.

Sephiroth 06-04-2025 12:57
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194051)
There’s no evidence that Israel wouldn’t have continued its borderline genocidal campaign even if Hamas had released the hostages. The aim is to “eliminate Hamas”; with such a broad definition as to include the destruction of schools, mosques, churches, universities, hospitals, energy infrastructure and turning off the water supply.

It’s a simplistic retort to absolve Israel from blame - nothing more and nothing less.

Even if Israel had stated that as their position - why would anyone trust them not to move the goalposts? Just as we went from “we don’t bomb hospitals” to “we do bomb hospitals”, and “we don’t summarily execute medical workers” to “well, now that there’s a video, maybe we made mistakes”.
It's still on Hamas for their October 2023 atrocity. And how else would Israel eliminate Hamas (a necessity imo) other than by military action.

Furthermore, nobody has been able to verify the civilian deaths. Make no mistake, it is sad that civilians (who voted for Hamas on an anti-Israel ticket) have died. But how, other than military action, can Hamas be removed/neutralised.


---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36194052)
The irony. The 'phrase From the river to the sea' does indeed say it all. From the Likud original party charter:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...he-likud-party



This gives you some context as to what motivates the current Israeli administrations mindset.
The existing Israeli government are bad eggs; I think we all agree on that. But even they had to deal with the October 2023 Hamas atrocity.

'From the river to the sea' is the expression used on London's streets promoting the extinction of Israel.

jfman 06-04-2025 13:25
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194053)
It's still on Hamas for their October 2023 atrocity. And how else would Israel eliminate Hamas (a necessity imo) other than by military action.

Furthermore, nobody has been able to verify the civilian deaths. Make no mistake, it is sad that civilians (who voted for Hamas on an anti-Israel ticket) have died. But how, other than military action, can Hamas be removed/neutralised.


---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 ----------



The existing Israeli government are bad eggs; I think we all agree on that. But even they had to deal with the October 2023 Hamas atrocity.

'From the river to the sea' is the expression used on London's streets promoting the extinction of Israel.
We did the 2006 Palestinian election during your sabbatical it didn’t have any credibility then and it doesn’t now.

Sephiroth 06-04-2025 13:32
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194055)
We did the 2006 Palestinian election during your sabbatical it didn’t have any credibility then and it doesn’t now.
Says you. A pure distraction. Hamas are worse eggs than the Israeli government.

pip08456 06-04-2025 15:58
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36194048)
Not what Israel has done. When you have condemned terrorists for killing 100's of civilians, going on to kill tens of 1000's of civilians, murdering journalists and emergency workers is not a good look.

When you have large numbers of the Israeli population supporting what the IDF is doing and you have the USA actively supporting them plus suppressing any dissent then what controls remain in place? The IDF can literally commit any crime with impunity.

For example,

Majority of Israelis support Trump's Gaza plan, relocation of Palestinians in exclusive 'Post' poll



"'from river to sea" - where have I heard that saying before?
Sounds exactly like Russia is doing in Ukraine but I don't hear about you or any others complainig about that.

Sephiroth 06-04-2025 16:03
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
The Russian government isn't a Jewish government.

jfman 06-04-2025 16:23
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36194061)
Sounds exactly like Russia is doing in Ukraine but I don't hear about you or any others complainig about that.
Apart from being an utterly deranged response - you clearly think these things are bad except for when it’s happening to Palestinians - Ian sits just outside the top 10 posters in the Ukraine thread. One of their most steadfast supporters on the forum, generally posting to condemn Russia, Trump, or Europe in the context of not doing enough for the Ukrainian cause.

TheDaddy 06-04-2025 16:38
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45rpm (Post 36194044)
OK, so what would you have done in response?
I probably wouldn't have let my army get away with killing our own hostages that we claim we are doing this for, nor would I have allowed shooting of people clearly surrendering to brushed over either, nor would I have allowed aid workers to be murdered or ignored the backlash from the world when it was non Palestinian aid workers being murdered and if I was waging a righteous operation I wouldn't be targetting journalists and I'd allow foreign journalists in to so my claims that the army is most virtuous could be verified, I'd also make my rules of engagement considerably different so dozens of civilians aren't killed to get one terrorist and what I most certainly wouldn't have done in the very first place is prop hamas up so I didn't have to deal with a Palestinian authority bent on nationhood and I'd have dropped the failed Dahyia doctrine that just makes hatred for my nation worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194053)
Furthermore, nobody has been able to verify the civilian deaths. Make no mistake, it is sad that civilians (who voted for Hamas on an anti-Israel ticket) have died. But how, other than military action, can Hamas be removed/neutralised.
The vast, vast majority killed have been women and children are you really trying to claim they're terrorists? Oh and hamas seized power, they weren't elected as such and iirc a majority of people there weren't old enough to vote in 2006 but yeah blame them

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36194061)
Sounds exactly like Russia is doing in Ukraine but I don't hear about you or any others complainig about that.
I think pretty much everyone spoke in support of Ukraine and complained about Russia, we also complained about Hamas on October 7th

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194063)
The Russian government isn't a Jewish government.
And here ends my participation, if the bar for a nations behaviour is set by a rogue state like Russia its not a conversation worth having, nor is participating in the Israeli government's favourite get out of jail free card which is by claiming if their army and government are held to different standards to others it's in someway antisemitic, unless you want crushing sanctions to be brought on Israel and for them to be treated like an international pariah of course, then you have my interest.

Chris 06-04-2025 16:56
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36194066)
The vast, vast majority killed have been women and children
Are you quite sure about that?

Daily Telegraph paywall-dodging link:

https://archive.ph/Twot0

jfman 06-04-2025 17:02
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36194067)
Are you quite sure about that?

Daily Telegraph paywall-dodging link:

https://archive.ph/Twot0
Quote:
About 72 per cent of fatalities aged 13-55 are men, which is the rough age range of Hamas combatants, Mr Fox said. “We know that Hamas uses child soldiers, and these statistics show clearly that Israel is targeting fighting-aged men.”
I like the way the starting point for this propaganda piece is to exclude some children altogether then justify the execution of other children because they are theoretically old enough to fight. Truly magnificent.

The absence of “independent” figures being used to justify silencing reporting on the figures is a close second.

TheDaddy 06-04-2025 17:08
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36194067)
Are you quite sure about that?

Daily Telegraph paywall-dodging link:

https://archive.ph/Twot0
Pretty sure, was on the BBC late last year or can't they be trusted anymore, iirc the figures were 44% children and 26% women and again iirc it was verified by the UN

Paul 06-04-2025 17:27
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36194036)
And 100% wrong
How is it wrong ?

Whatever peoples views are of what is happening now, the fact is this was all triggered by the attack, by Hamas, on 7th Oct 2023.

I have seen no evidence that anything like the events of now would have happened were it not for what took place on that day.

jfman 06-04-2025 17:32
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36194070)
How is it wrong ?

Whatever peoples views are of what is happening now, the fact is this was all triggered by the attack, by Hamas, on 7th Oct 2023.

I have seen no evidence that anything like the events of now would have happened were it not for what took place on that day.
There’s a difference between that being the sequence of events (of which there were decades of actions on both sides before that) and denying that the IDF have agency to decide not to slaughter paramedics, or generally a free pass to ignore the established norms of warfare by bombing hospitals.

7th October is an entirely arbitrary starting date.

Paul 06-04-2025 17:46
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194071)
7th October is an entirely arbitrary starting date.
I see your desperation to point blame anywhere else is in full force atm.

Still, "Starting" is the important word, as already noted.
Any date is arbitrary, picked by some commander I expect.

Sephiroth 06-04-2025 17:54
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194071)
There’s a difference between that being the sequence of events (of which there were decades of actions on both sides before that) and denying that the IDF have agency to decide not to slaughter paramedics, or generally a free pass to ignore the established norms of warfare by bombing hospitals.

7th October is an entirely arbitrary starting date.
Apart from the abhorrent atrocity of 7th October (which you so callously downplay), we can take it back to 1948 when 3x Arab countries invaded Israel on the day that the UN declared Israel into being. Since then, Al Fatah carried out hideous acts of terrorism which you and at least one other also conveniently ignore.


jfman 06-04-2025 18:07
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36194072)
I see your desperation to point blame anywhere else is in full force atm.

Still, "Starting" is the important word, as already noted.
Any date is arbitrary, picked by some commander I expect.
No desperation here - I’m not trying to point the blame anywhere else. Terrorists are responsible for the attacks they commit. Nation states are responsible for their response and whether they are proportionate (or in this case, not).

Nobody can truly watch the summary execution of paramedics the other day by the IDF and blame Hamas because of an event that happened 18 months ago. To do so is fundamentally to deny them the right to live, and by follow on, the Palestinian people the right to medical treatment for events that had nothing to do with them.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194074)
Apart from the abhorrent atrocity of 7th October (which you so callously downplay), we can take it back to 1948 when 3x Arab countries invaded Israel on the day that the UN declared Israel into being. Since then, Al Fatah carried out hideous acts of terrorism which you and at least one other also conveniently ignore.

The only thing being callously downplayed is the Palestinian right to life and not be subjected to collective punishment at the hands of a military force. Indeed even counting the dead is something that isn’t permitted, and must be caveated at all times by Israeli denials and deflections. A luxury that isn’t afforded to anyone else, anywhere in the world, in normal reporting.

Paul 06-04-2025 18:53
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194075)
Nobody can truly watch the summary execution of paramedics the other day by the IDF and blame Hamas because of an event that happened 18 months ago.
Why not ? This situation is a result of the events on that day.
War is not pretty, and things happen that most definitely should not.

The event you refer to was clearly wrong, and shoud never have happened.
However, that does not change the fact that this whole mess was started by the Hamas attacks & invasion.

To deny that suggests you are living in cloud cookoo land (or Russia).

Had Oct 7th not happened, would we have had 18 months of peace ?
Unlikely I would think - but would we have the current full scale war, death and destruction ? No.

jfman 06-04-2025 19:32
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36194077)
Why not ? This situation is a result of the events on that day.
War is not pretty, and things happen that most definitely should not.

The event you refer to was clearly wrong, and shoud never have happened.
However, that does not change the fact that this whole mess was started by the Hamas attacks & invasion.

To deny that suggests you are living in cloud cookoo land (or Russia).

Had Oct 7th not happened, would we have had 18 months of peace ?
Unlikely I would think - but would we have the current full scale war, death and destruction ? No.
Nobody disputes war isn’t pretty, but it has rules and conventions to protect civilian populations. Applying them is supposed to be what makes ‘civilised’ nations better than rogue states and terror organisations. Which was my original point

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
There’s a difference between that being the sequence of events (of which there were decades of actions on both sides before that) and denying that the IDF have agency to decide not to slaughter paramedics, or generally a free pass to ignore the established norms of warfare by bombing hospitals.
Being a critic of Israel for the choices they make in how they are conducting this response isn’t the same as not blaming Hamas for it’s role in October 7th. I’m also not convinced it makes Israel (or the west in general) safer in the long run.

Appreciate we have done this back and forth before so I’ll leave it there for this evening.

Pierre 06-04-2025 20:12
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194080)
Appreciate we have done this back and forth before so I’ll leave it there for this evening.
This discussion is pretty pointless atm. You’ve the got the pro-Hamas terrorist sycophants crowd such as Ianch99, and you’ve got the Israel has a right to do whatever it takes to destroy Hamas…such as myself.

Nothing is likely to happen to change either’s opinion, anytime soon, if ever.

Sephiroth 06-04-2025 20:33
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194075)
No desperation here - I’m not trying to point the blame anywhere else. Terrorists are responsible for the attacks they commit. Nation states are responsible for their response and whether they are proportionate (or in this case, not).

Nobody can truly watch the summary execution of paramedics the other day by the IDF and blame Hamas because of an event that happened 18 months ago. To do so is fundamentally to deny them the right to live, and by follow on, the Palestinian people the right to medical treatment for events that had nothing to do with them.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:04 ----------



The only thing being callously downplayed is the Palestinian right to life and not be subjected to collective punishment at the hands of a military force. Indeed even counting the dead is something that isn’t permitted, and must be caveated at all times by Israeli denials and deflections. A luxury that isn’t afforded to anyone else, anywhere in the world, in normal reporting.
The Palestinian right to life is best maintained by not firing rockets at Israel, not murdering 1200 of them during the 7th October invasion and not declaring war on Israel.

Hugh 06-04-2025 21:18
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36194081)
This discussion is pretty pointless atm. You’ve the got the pro-Hamas terrorist sycophants crowd such as Ianch99, and you’ve got the Israel has a right to do whatever it takes to destroy Hamas…such as myself.

Nothing is likely to happen to change either’s opinion, anytime soon, if ever.
Never seen Ian post anything that was "poro-Hamas terrorists" - unless you are equating supporting Palestinian rights as pro-Hamas, which, imho, is equally wrong as saying anyone who is pro-Israel's right to exist is a Zionist...

1andrew1 07-04-2025 06:36
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36194081)
This discussion is pretty pointless atm. You’ve the got the pro-Hamas terrorist sycophants crowd such as Ianch99, and you’ve got the Israel has a right to do whatever it takes to destroy Hamas…such as myself.

Nothing is likely to happen to change either’s opinion, anytime soon, if ever.
I read this thread as you've got those who give carte blanche for Netanyahu to ignore international law and the lives of aid workers, civilians and hostages and do whatever it takes to cling to power.

Then you've got everyone else.

Thankfully, I've not read any pro-Hamas posts in this thread.

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 08:44
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Those who kick Israel in this thread do not adequately deprecate Hamas.
Hence the stigma of "pro-Hamas", even if not directly expressed.

None of the anti-Israel contributors offer a solution for removing the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah from the scene. It's a great pity that the Israeli government are such *******s that this clouds the Hamas issue. But Hamas need to be eliminated and they are to blame for all the civilian suffering.

jfman 07-04-2025 09:01
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194100)
Those who kick Israel in this thread do not adequately deprecate Hamas.
Hence the stigma of "pro-Hamas", even if not directly expressed.

None of the anti-Israel contributors offer a solution for removing the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah from the scene. It's a great pity that the Israeli government are such *******s that this clouds the Hamas issue. But Hamas need to be eliminated and they are to blame for all the civilian suffering.
This one was also done in your absence - I certainly don’t accept that criticism of Israel can only be done if every time you preface it with some kind of disclaimer at best framing and at worst justifying their actions in some way.

I don’t have my language policed on any other matter or war, and can judge every action independently on it’s own merits. I don’t see why condemnation of the Israeli state - which it would appear we hold similar regard for - warrants it.

If Israel stayed within the parameters others would find acceptable I’d be more than happy to frame it as such. However I’m not going to imply or infer they didn’t have a choice to do this because they absolutely did. It fails the “what if it was Putin?” test.

---------- Post added at 09:01 ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194083)
The Palestinian right to life is best maintained by not firing rockets at Israel, not murdering 1200 of them during the 7th October invasion and not declaring war on Israel.
The average Palestinian had just as little control over events as Israel did.

ianch99 07-04-2025 10:48
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36194081)
This discussion is pretty pointless atm. You’ve the got the pro-Hamas terrorist sycophants crowd such as Ianch99, and you’ve got the Israel has a right to do whatever it takes to destroy Hamas…such as myself.

Nothing is likely to happen to change either’s opinion, anytime soon, if ever.
You disgust me. I have never said I support Hamas, quite the opposite.

My time here is done ...

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 10:49
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
The average Palestinian is not under the same threat as the Hamas-runn Gazans. The issues are separate in the context of the Israel-Gaza war.

jfman 07-04-2025 11:04
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194110)
The average Palestinian is not under the same threat as the Hamas-runn Gazans. The issues are separate in the context of the Israel-Gaza war.
They are under a greater threat than the average Israeli.

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 11:24
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194112)
They are under a greater threat than the average Israeli.
That might be slightly true because of the disgusting Israeli government. But terrorise from neighbours within Israeli borders, not to mention the 1200, provides the rest of the truth.

However despicable the Israeli government may be, they need to destroy Hamas.

Also, don’t forget how that has spread in one form or another to the UK, including all jihadi type attacks/bombings/murders.


---------- Post added at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36194109)
You disgust me. I have never said I support Hamas, quite the opposite.

My time here is done ...
The appropriate degree of balance is missing from your comments. And please don’t come back and say that 1200 vs alleged 50,000 is disproportionate; all Hamas has to to do is release the hostages that they should never have taken in the first place.

papa smurf 07-04-2025 11:30
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194113)
That might be slightly true because of the disgusting Israeli government. But terrorise from neighbours within Israeli borders, not to mention the 1200, provides the rest of the truth.

However despicable the Israeli government may be, they need to destroy Hamas.

Also, don’t forget how that has spread in one form or another to the UK, including all jihadi type attacks/bombings/murders.


---------- Post added at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------



The appropriate degree of balance is missing from your comments. And please don’t come back and say that 1200 vs alleged 50,000 is disproportionate; all Hamas has to to do is release the hostages that they should never have taken in the first place.

What happens to Gaza if all the hostages are released?

jfman 07-04-2025 11:49
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194113)
That might be slightly true because of the disgusting Israeli government. But terrorise from neighbours within Israeli borders, not to mention the 1200, provides the rest of the truth.

However despicable the Israeli government may be, they need to destroy Hamas.

Also, don’t forget how that has spread in one form or another to the UK, including all jihadi type attacks/bombings/murders.


---------- Post added at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------



The appropriate degree of balance is missing from your comments. And please don’t come back and say that 1200 vs alleged 50,000 is disproportionate; all Hamas has to to do is release the hostages that they should never have taken in the first place.
It’s not “slightly true” - by any measure statistically the average Israeli can go about their day to day activities in safety today. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Palestinians cannot. Nor can they reliably access the services any civilised country would consider essential - like food, employment, education or healthcare.

To imply the deaths of 1200 Israelis is somehow equivalent is to tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths is once again to significantly downplay the Palestinian right to life.

Maggy 07-04-2025 12:24
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194120)
It’s not “slightly true” - by any measure statistically the average Israeli can go about their day to day activities in safety today. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Palestinians cannot. Nor can they reliably access the services any civilised country would consider essential - like food, employment, education or healthcare.

To imply the deaths of 1200 Israelis is somehow equivalent is to tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths is once again to significantly downplay the Palestinian right to life.

1andrew1 07-04-2025 12:41
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194113)
The appropriate degree of balance is missing from your comments. And please don’t come back and say that 1200 vs alleged 50,000 is disproportionate; all Hamas has to to do is release the hostages that they should never have taken in the first place.
Releasing the Israeli hostages, which I would like to see happen, is not going to make the Israeli response proportionate.

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 13:05
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194120)
It’s not “slightly true” - by any measure statistically the average Israeli can go about their day to day activities in safety today. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Palestinians cannot. Nor can they reliably access the services any civilised country would consider essential - like food, employment, education or healthcare.

To imply the deaths of 1200 Israelis is somehow equivalent is to tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths is once again to significantly downplay the Palestinian right to life.
It's convenient for you to lump Gaza into Palestine for the purposes of death equivalences. The Palestinian (West Bank) situation is not the same. The Palestinians of the West Bank are not lobbing rockets into Israel.

Had Hamas not murdered 1200 Israelis, nor kidnapped 200+ people, nor then holding them from release, Gazan deaths would have been reduced/avoided.

jfman 07-04-2025 13:20
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194134)
It's convenient for you to lump Gaza into Palestine for the purposes of death equivalences. The Palestinian (West Bank) situation is not the same. The Palestinians of the West Bank are not lobbing rockets into Israel.

Had Hamas not murdered 1200 Israelis, nor kidnapped 200+ people, nor then holding them from release, Gazan deaths would have been reduced/avoided.
There’s nothing really convenient for me about pointing out slam dunk war crimes and then responding to people that justify it as “oppsie” at best and worthwhile collective punishment at worst.

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 14:32
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194137)
There’s nothing really convenient for me about pointing out slam dunk war crimes and then responding to people that justify it as “oppsie” at best and worthwhile collective punishment at worst.
And Hamas - what have you got to say abouth them?

mrmistoffelees 07-04-2025 14:43
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194140)
And Hamas - what have you got to say abouth them?
Why do we keep circling back to this ? Not one person has sympathised or approved the actions of Hamas to my knowledge in this thread. To my knowledge everyone has condemned them.

It’s not unreasonable nor unjust to question the actions of the IDF without needing to repeatedly denounce Hamas’s horrific actions.

TheDaddy 07-04-2025 15:18
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36194143)
Why do we keep circling back to this ? Not one person has sympathised or approved the actions of Hamas to my knowledge in this thread. To my knowledge everyone has condemned them.

It’s not unreasonable nor unjust to question the actions of the IDF without needing to repeatedly denounce Hamas’s horrific actions.
No one here supports Hamas or what they did on October 7th but that doesn't seem to stop people equating criticism of Israel and their army as support for hamas or antisemitism, it's pathetic and reminds me why I quit this thread long ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36194115)
What happens to Gaza if all the hostages are released?
Someone saw fit not to answer, wonder why :shocked:

jfman 07-04-2025 15:45
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194140)
And Hamas - what have you got to say abouth them?
At this point absolutely nothing, mainly to be obtuse in response to your ludicrous position that Israel can only be criticised once someone has criticised Hamas on every single occasion.

1andrew1 07-04-2025 15:59
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194147)
At this point absolutely nothing, mainly to be obtuse in response to your ludicrous position that Israel can only be criticised once someone has criticised Hamas on every single occasion.
It really reminds me of what some may describe as woke organisations in New Zealand who place an acknowledgment on their website to talk about the traditional owners of the land they are based on.

It seems some people would like us to preface every comment about Israeli actions with something like "Before discussing recent atrocities, I acknowledges that Hamas brutally murdered 1,200 innocent Israel citizens on 7 October 2023 and that they are a terrorist organisation who started it first!"

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 16:30
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36194143)
Why do we keep circling back to this ? Not one person has sympathised or approved the actions of Hamas to my knowledge in this thread. To my knowledge everyone has condemned them.

It’s not unreasonable nor unjust to question the actions of the IDF without needing to repeatedly denounce Hamas’s horrific actions.
Your sentence should properly have read:

It is reasonable and just to question the actions of the IDF whilst at the same time denouncing Hamas’s horrific actions.

Pray answer this: How is Hamas to be eliminated? Or don't you think it should be eliminated?

jfman 07-04-2025 16:45
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Not by committing borderline war crimes? If that’s not possible then containment and mitigation are reasonable expectations to have for now without anyone being condemned as “not thinking Hamas should be eliminated”.

Whether elimination is realistic as you destroy the livelihoods of everyone in Gaza and thereby become a poster for signing up is another question avoided by the other side. Note: in the real world while it’s undesirable for people to join terrorist organisations people routinely do, for reasons they perceive as legitimate. Whether you or I think they are legitimate reasons or not is irrelevant to the reality.

mrmistoffelees 07-04-2025 18:25
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194151)
Your sentence should properly have read:

It is reasonable and just to question the actions of the IDF whilst at the same time denouncing Hamas’s horrific actions.

Pray answer this: How is Hamas to be eliminated? Or don't you think it should be eliminated?
Firstly thank you for correcting my statement I’m sure it was entirely necessary and that without your correction people wouldn’t have understood my point

1. Yes Hamas should be eliminated HOWEVER the Israeli government/IDF should not and do not have the right to do this by any means necessary.
2. Do you think this action will eradicate Hamas? All I see is the potential next generation of Hamas terrorists or whatever they rebrand themselves

Like I said, war has rules

At some point in the future the world’s memory of what happened to the Jewish people will fade & military support and assistance will end. At that point well who knows what will happen

vm_tech 07-04-2025 18:56
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Creation of the "Palestinian people" - the most successful secret operation of the
KGB in the Middle East by Samuel Greenberg is an interesting book. Very short only around 60 pages long available on Kindle Unlimited

jfman 07-04-2025 19:06
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vm_tech (Post 36194163)
Creation of the "Palestinian people" - the most successful secret operation of the
KGB in the Middle East by Samuel Greenberg is an interesting book. Very short only around 60 pages long available on Kindle Unlimited
Seems legit.

Even if we accept this pretty poor attempt to deny the Palestinian people an ethnic identity (one way to avoid accusations of ethnic cleansing I guess) people born there are entitled to live there in peace and have rights under international law.

Also fails the Putin test - there’s no historic Ukrainian identity either but nobody would say it’s therefore impossible for them to be ethnically cleansed. You’d get laughed out of town for saying it.

vm_tech 07-04-2025 19:12
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194165)
Seems legit.

Even if we accept this pretty poor attempt to deny the Palestinian people an ethnic identity (one way to avoid accusations of ethnic cleansing I guess) people born there are entitled to live there in peace and have rights under international law.

Also fails the Putin test - there’s no historic Ukrainian identity either but nobody would say it’s therefore impossible for them to be ethnically cleansed. You’d get laughed out of town for saying it.
You read it quickly

jfman 07-04-2025 19:24
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vm_tech (Post 36194166)
You read it quickly
I relied on the Times of Israel summary, I’d seen enough.

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 19:45
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194154)
Not by committing borderline war crimes? If that’s not possible then containment and mitigation are reasonable expectations to have for now without anyone being condemned as “not thinking Hamas should be eliminated”.

Whether elimination is realistic as you destroy the livelihoods of everyone in Gaza and thereby become a poster for signing up is another question avoided by the other side. Note: in the real world while it’s undesirable for people to join terrorist organisations people routinely do, for reasons they perceive as legitimate. Whether you or I think they are legitimate reasons or not is irrelevant to the reality.
There you go. Struggling and possibly choking on knowing that Hamas needs to be eliminated (see 7th October for details) yet unable to admit same.

jfman 07-04-2025 19:49
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194175)
There you go. Struggling and possibly choking on knowing that Hamas needs to be eliminated (see 7th October for details) yet unable to admit same.
It’s neither a struggle nor something to choke upon the desirability of the outcome.

What is a struggle is to reconcile it with the summary execution of paramedics working in a war zone. Anyone who can watch that video and accept it as a price worth paying is no better than the terrorists themselves.

mrmistoffelees 07-04-2025 19:54
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194176)
It’s neither a struggle nor something to choke upon the desirability of the outcome.

What is a struggle is to reconcile it with the summary execution of paramedics working in a war zone. Anyone who can watch that video and accept it as a price worth paying is no better than the terrorists themselves.
Agreed

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 19:56
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194176)
It’s neither a struggle nor something to choke upon the desirability of the outcome.

What is a struggle is to reconcile it with the summary execution of paramedics working in a war zone. Anyone who can watch that video and accept it as a price worth paying is no better than the terrorists themselves.
As already stated in this thread, war is ugly. Shit happens.
Anyone who has seen the 7th October videos ought to be able to understand what's going.

I'll ask again: Do you think that Hamas must be eliminated?

jfman 07-04-2025 19:58
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194179)
As already stated in this thread, war is ugly. Shit happens.
Anyone who has seen the 7th October videos ought to be able to understand what's going.

I'll ask again: Do you think that Hamas must be eliminated?
I’ve answered many times before, ironically including in the post you quote. The real question is can you make a completely unconditional, unqualified condemnation of Israel for executing paramedics?

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 20:02
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194181)
I’ve answered many times before, ironically including in the post you quote. The real question is can you make a completely unconditional, unqualified condemnation of Israel for executing paramedics?
You've avoided the answer. It's a simple question, requiring a simple answer not weasel words.

Should Hamas be eliminated?

mrmistoffelees 07-04-2025 20:06
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194179)
As already stated in this thread, war is ugly. Shit happens.
Anyone who has seen the 7th October videos ought to be able to understand what's going.

I'll ask again: Do you think that Hamas must be eliminated?
War is ugly , shit happens

So, considering this war between the two sides has been going on for years and years when Hamas attacked Israel back on October 7th could you not argue that that in itself is shit happening ? Or is it only shit happens when it’s the side you want to win commits atrocities ?

jfman 07-04-2025 20:18
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36194184)
War is ugly , shit happens

So, considering this war between the two sides has been going on for years and years when Hamas attacked Israel back on October 7th could you not argue that that in itself is shit happening ? Or is it only shit happens when it’s the side you want to win commits atrocities ?
This is the circle that cannot be squared among Israel’s supporters. Hamas executing Israeli paramedics wouldn’t be “war is ugly”, neither would any state actor carrying out the same act - Iran, Lebanon, Syrians. There would be an outcry.

One minute Hamas are the government of Gaza, making state apparatus like the health infrastructure implicitly a legitimate target, on the other hand Palestinians are denied a legitimate fighting force to carry out “ugly” acts in its name. Or atrocities, as they’d likely be known.

It’s some amount of mental gymnastics at every turn.

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 20:26
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36194184)
War is ugly , shit happens

So, considering this war between the two sides has been going on for years and years when Hamas attacked Israel back on October 7th could you not argue that that in itself is shit happening ? Or is it only shit happens when it’s the side you want to win commits atrocities ?
When you're in the same frame of mind as one or teo others, the your logic leads to your question. Semantically, what you'be posited is valid.

But dig deeper into it, Hamas rockets can be met with Israeli rockets/shells or other military means. But when you do the 7th October thing, "shit" becomes atrocity and Israel has the duty to eliminate Hamas.

mrmistoffelees 07-04-2025 20:35
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194187)
When you're in the same frame of mind as one or teo others, the your logic leads to your question. Semantically, what you'be posited is valid.

But dig deeper into it, Hamas rockets can be met with Israeli rockets/shells or other military means. But when you do the 7th October thing, "shit" becomes atrocity and Israel has the duty to eliminate Hamas.
Dig even deeper & atrocities have been committed by both sides over the entire conflict.

Israel does quite rightly have a right to eliminate Hamas BUT it must do so within the rules of law.

The behavior we’ve seen with regards to the execution of innocent medics and subsequent attempted cover up is not an isolated incident.

The behaviour of both Hamas & the Israeli government is the same the only differnence is the methods used (ultimately when the window dressing is removed the reasoning is pretty much the same)

One is decried and vilified the other is celebrated and vindicated

jfman 07-04-2025 20:47
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Executing innocent people under a national flag is no more right or moral than any ramshackle group of militants with a cause.

Pierre 07-04-2025 20:50
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36194109)

My time here is done ...
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36194129)
Releasing the Israeli hostages, which I would like to see happen, is not going to make the Israeli response proportionate.
Why does the Israeli response have to be “proportionate”?

jfman 07-04-2025 20:52
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36194192)
Why does the Israeli response have to be “proportionate”?
To at least pretend international law isn’t just a white western construct we impose on other people.

Pierre 07-04-2025 20:54
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194194)
To at least pretend international law isn’t just a white western construct we impose on other people.
What law, international or otherwise, says any military response to an act of war needs to be “proportionate”?

jfman 07-04-2025 20:58
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36194195)
What law, international or otherwise, says any military response to an act of war needs to be “proportionate”?
That’s semantics. There’s basic expectations - like not summarily executing paramedics. My list isn’t exhaustive.

Can you - without qualification - criticise this one Israeli action?

mrmistoffelees 07-04-2025 21:00
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36194195)
What law, international or otherwise, says any military response to an act of war needs to be “proportionate”?
The Law of Armed Conflict and International Humanitarian Law

Pierre 07-04-2025 21:39
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194196)
That’s semantics. There’s basic expectations - like not summarily executing paramedics. My list isn’t exhaustive.

Can you - without qualification - criticise this one Israeli action?
The only “law” in war, is to win……..

And a “win” can have many definitions.

Total victory is preferable, but rarely achievable.

Israel, is pursuing total victory, as is their right.

Would I “criticise” Israel, yes..of course. Happy to do so on various fronts. It’s a low bar.

Would i “condemn” them? No.

---------- Post added at 21:39 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36194197)
The Law of Armed Conflict and International Humanitarian Law
I’m sure when HAMAS comply with that law, Israel would be more than happy to.

Or do you think only Israel is bound by that law?

mrmistoffelees 07-04-2025 22:43
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36194201)
The only “law” in war, is to win……..

And a “win” can have many definitions.

Total victory is preferable, but rarely achievable.

Israel, is pursuing total victory, as is their right.

Would I “criticise” Israel, yes..of course. Happy to do so on various fronts. It’s a low bar.

Would i “condemn” them? No.

---------- Post added at 21:39 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------



I’m sure when HAMAS comply with that law, Israel would be more than happy to.

Or do you think only Israel is bound by that law?
Sigh, not this old nonsense again. When it comes to a time of war the actions of one party don’t legally justify the actions of another party

And stop trying to put words into peoples mouths, your modus operandi is easily guessable, tiresome and repetitive

Sephiroth 07-04-2025 22:54
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
What is proportionate to roasting babies?

https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-m...ck-2023-10-12/

Quote:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office also released on social media a picture of a dead infant in a pool of blood and the charred body of a child, part of an apparent effort to stoke global anger against the Gaza militants over Saturday's attack.
The Reuters Tariff Watch newsletter is your daily guide to the latest global trade and tariff news. Sign up here.
Blinken, who flew into Tel Aviv earlier on Thursday, told reporters he was shown photographs and videos of a baby riddled with bullets, soldiers beheaded and young people burned alive in their cars or hideaways.

jfman 08-04-2025 05:13
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194207)
What is proportionate to roasting babies?

https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-m...ck-2023-10-12/
Not roasting more?

Sephiroth 08-04-2025 08:55
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194211)
Not roasting more?
Gotcha! (Don't misunderstand me).

jfman 09-04-2025 23:14
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/04/09/m...tam/index.html

Quote:
Netanyahu met Trump seeking wins on tariffs and Iran. He returns to Israel empty-handed
Sound like the broken clock was right this time.

1andrew1 09-04-2025 23:29
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36194358)
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/04/09/m...tam/index.html

Sound like the broken clock was right this time.
He's had a bit of luck today in that his 17% tariff will now be cut to 10%, in line with everyone else except China. But it must have been a bit of shock not to get special treatment.

Sephiroth 09-04-2025 23:31
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Maybe it was Netanyahu that persuaded Trump to pause the tariffs.

Paul 10-04-2025 01:32
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36194361)
Maybe it was Netanyahu that persuaded Trump to pause the tariffs.
or maybe all the people who finance him, whose fortunes started to take a battering.

jfman 10-04-2025 01:43
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36194370)
or maybe all the people who finance him, whose fortunes started to take a battering.
The problem with 2024 Trump is all the “non-traditional” backers are up there with anyone he can solicit for more.

In many markets there will be more to be made in the next 4 days than the next 4 decades as the gambling goes off the chart.

Chris 09-06-2025 10:40
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
1 Attachment(s)
St Greta of Thundberg has been intercepted by the Israeli navy before getting anywhere near Gaza, as widely predicted. The narcissists activists on board the good ship Madleen had all recorded dramatic ‘in case I don’t make it’ videos which were released after they were arrested and taken to Israel overnight.

The IDF has, however, poured something of a dampener on their dramatic fireworks by releasing a photo of Greta grinning like the school kid she is while being handed a sandwich by one of her ‘captors’.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1749462022

Pierre 09-06-2025 10:47
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Her 5mins were up a long time ago.

Mr K 20-07-2025 20:57
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
BBC News - Israeli forces kill 67 Palestinians seeking aid in northern Gaza
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rp62480r3o

If this was any other country we'd have at least kicked the ambassador out of the UK. Instead we turn a blind eye.

Sephiroth 20-07-2025 21:02
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36199611)
BBC News - Israeli forces kill 67 Palestinians seeking aid in northern Gaza
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rp62480r3o

If this was any other country we'd have at least kicked the ambassador out of the UK. Instead we turn a blind eye.
What - like we kicked the Russian ambassador out of the UK, did we?

Pierre 20-07-2025 21:50
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36199611)
BBC News - Israeli forces kill 67 Palestinians seeking aid in northern Gaza
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rp62480r3o

If this was any other country we'd have at least kicked the ambassador out of the UK. Instead we turn a blind eye.
What your post, intentionally, omits from the headline is…….

Quote:
Hamas-run ministry says
Hamas = ISIS. You are just a Hamas supporter / terrorist sympathiser

If you love Islamist terrorism so much, go over there, and let us know how you get on.

Mr K 20-07-2025 21:59
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36199621)


Hamas = ISIS. You are just a Hamas supporter / terrorist sympathiser

If you love Islamist terrorism so much, go over there, and let us know how you get on.
Read it in the Torygraph if you want old chap.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...tine-hostages/

Even they've seen the light of some of biggest war crimes this century. History is not going to judge those that turned a blind eye well.

1andrew1 20-07-2025 23:58
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36199623)
Read it in the Torygraph if you want old chap.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...tine-hostages/

Even they've seen the light of some of biggest war crimes this century. History is not going to judge those that turned a blind eye well.
I hope no one claims that's the mouthpiece of Isis too! And although The Telegraph has reporters in Israel, it would be unable to take up Pierre's suggestion to Mr K to go to Gaza as reporters are banned.

History won't be kind to those who gave Netanyahu cover. Besides the death, destruction and suffering themselves, they're acting as a powerful recruiting sergeant for terrorists.

Quote:
The UN has documented a rapid increase in the frequency of fanatical social media posts, and an academic paper found “significant peaks in extremism scores” on social media “that correspond to real-life events, such as the IDF’s bombings of al-Quds Hospital and the Jabalia refugee camp”.

All this corroborates what senior Israeli sources told me in February: that terrorist networks are replacing dead Hamas fighters at a rate of five to one. At the time, it sounded a realistic appraisal. Now, after five more months of destruction, I suspect it will prove to be a dire underestimate. A British security source told Reuters that the Gaza war is “likely to become the biggest recruiter for Islamist militants since 2003”. The International Centre for Counter-Terrorism warned that such conditions are “active incubators for the next generation of extremist operatives”.
https://www.thetimes.com/comment/col...pped-7fdp6x0vk

As the paper points out, Israel could have reacted on 8 October 2023 in a restrained manner. Not only would it continued to enjoy global support but it would have led to rapprochement with Saudi Arabia which Iran dreads.

---------- Post added at 23:58 ---------- Previous post was at 23:50 ----------

Looks like Trump is getting fed up with Netanyahu's actions in Syria

Quote:
‘He bombs everything all the time’: US said fuming at ‘madman’ Netanyahu after Syria strikes

White House reportedly views actions as harming Trump peace efforts, calls PM ‘child who just won’t behave’; Jerusalem tried explaining need to defend Druze, Israeli official says

The White House is alarmed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s decisions in Syria, multiple officials in US President Donald Trump’s administration were quoted Sunday as saying, branding the premier a “madman” and “a child who just won’t behave.”

“Bibi acted like a madman. He bombs everything all the time,” a White House official was cited as saying by the Axios news outlet, using the premier’s nickname. “This could undermine what Trump is trying to do.”

Israel began carrying out strikes on Syrian troops rolling into Sweida on Tuesday after local government forces were accused of killing scores of people in the Druze city of Sweida, and on Wednesday the IDF struck key buildings in Damascus.

The feeling is that every day there is something new. What the ****?” said a second senior US official after an Israeli tank shell hit a church in Gaza, killing three people, in what the IDF says was a mistake.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-chil...syria-strikes/

Paul 21-07-2025 02:10
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Reports also noted that
Quote:
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said that it had "fired warning shots" to remove "an immediate threat". It disputed the number of reported deaths.
Surely the point of "Warning Shots" is not to kill anyone ?

1andrew1 21-07-2025 08:09
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36199630)
Reports also noted that

Surely the point of "Warning Shots" is not to kill anyone ?
Indeed. Suggests they were more than warning shots.

thenry 01-08-2025 21:39
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
So Israel is out of ideas so everyone is being sent in to offer assistance.

Iran backed Hamas believe in a cousin of prophet Mohammad whereas the rest of the world believe prophet Mohammad being the last prophet. I'm not all that educated in Islam. I have no idea how Hamas will react to further influence in the area. They already rejected Trumps revolution, that grand theft auto promo lol

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-isra...atest-13398805

I find it embarrassing the desperation. Who is anybody to play God in this situation.

Chris 02-08-2025 00:57
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Hamas are Sunni, which is the majority sect of Islam which does not believe the faith has, or requires, a hereditary spiritual leader. Iran is Shia, which does. But Iran also believes in apocalyptic terms that the West is a decadent force of Satan, which has bankrolled Israel and forced its establishment on lands that rightfully belong to Muslims, and it has funded and trained Hamas to oppose Israel and the West for those reasons.

thenry 02-08-2025 09:19
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Thank you for that. It's strange that Hamas and Iran find common ground when religious beliefs take presidence.

Sephiroth 02-08-2025 09:23
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36200260)
Thank you for that. It's strange that Hamas and Iran find common ground when religious beliefs take presidence.
Iran would say “My enemy’s enemy is my friend”.

BTW, what’s wrong with Hamas releasing the remaining hostages?

thenry 07-08-2025 16:40
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Benjamin Netanyahu says that Israel intends to take control of all of Gaza.

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-late...#liveblog-body
Bye Gaza.

Pierre 08-08-2025 03:10
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Clear them all out, they were given Gaza and screwed it up.

Ship them all over to the West Back.

1andrew1 08-08-2025 06:39
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36200642)
Clear them all out, they were given Gaza and screwed it up.

Ship them all over to the West Back.
I'm afraid that Netanyahu has territorial ambitions for that area too.

Maybe ship them over to Yorkshire? After all, I'm sure none of them will bear a grudge to the West.

Pierre 08-08-2025 08:37
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36200643)

Maybe ship them over to Yorkshire?
Already here. Arriving daily.

Stabbings and sexual assault provided free of charge.

Hugh 08-08-2025 08:55
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36200645)
Already here. Arriving daily.

Stabbings and sexual assault provided free of charge.
There are Palestinians from Gaza arriving daily in Yorkshire?

papa smurf 08-08-2025 09:26
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36200645)
Already here. Arriving daily.

Stabbings and sexual assault provided free of charge.
Yes lots of undocumented fighting age men who's country of origin is unknown

45rpm 08-08-2025 10:25
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36200642)
they were given Gaza and screwed it up.
Absolutely right! About 20 years back, every Israeli was removed by Israel from the Strip. Sort of reverse ethnic cleansing.

They could have used that opportunity to build hotels, farms and factories. Instead they dug tunnels and fired rockets. During that time, they were living in poverty.

Trump spoke about making Gaza into a riviera. They could have done this themselves 2 decades ago.

Carth 08-08-2025 10:55
Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45rpm (Post 36200651)
Absolutely right! About 20 years back, every Israeli was removed by Israel from the Strip. Sort of reverse ethnic cleansing.

They could have used that opportunity to build hotels, farms and factories. Instead they dug tunnels and fired rockets. During that time, they were living in poverty.

Trump spoke about making Gaza into a riviera. They could have done this themselves 2 decades ago.
:clap: :clap:


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