Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

British Intelligence Update:

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1652001814

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Any "Breaking" news posted by me or anyone else should be subject to confirmation. Good to see not one has been proved wrong though. (in regards to the situation in Ukraine).

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Putin’s victory day speech has passed without him declaring war on anyone. Though the most notable thing might be the cancellation of the air show. They blamed poor weather, though observers say that’s hard to believe. I wonder if Putin feared an attack of some sort, or whether he simply no longer has enough operational jets to spare.

---------- Post added at 09:59 ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 ----------

Russian EPGs have been hacked this morning. Programme descriptions on all channels were changed to read “On your hands is the blood of thousands of Ukrainians and their hundreds of murdered children. TV and the authorities are lying. No to war”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Light rain and gentle showers in Moscow at the moment. :D
https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/524901

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Indeed - better than this time last year, when the fly-past went ahead as scheduled. Seeing as the aircraft were all available for rehearsal, I suspect they feared an attack. Just one stinger missile smuggled into the suburbs could have made quite a mess.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I think Putin's lost the plot.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/05...ies-old-values

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

NEW: U.S. believes that Ukraine destroyed a Russian pontoon bridge across the Donetsk river near the town of Popasna in the Donbas: senior U.S. defense official

The U.S. believes Russia has built "several" bridges across the Donetsk River. - Jack Detsch, Foreign Policy.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Thanks to Heero for spotting this!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/185166...ade-boat-bomb/

[EXTRACT]

VLADIMIR Putin’s parade boat which he uses to inspect his fleet was obliterated with a bomb launched from a drone, it has been claimed.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Ha, ha, thanks for sharing too! :tu:

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

A big loss by Russia
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...b41349604bbdaf

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

And a first-hand account from the army engineer who scouted (and correctly identified) the probable location Russia would try to cross the river and briefed the local forces on what to watch out for:

https://twitter.com/kms_d4k/status/1...rGo50dKj1ErehA

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Only if he foresaw this particular risky-free transaction 3 years ahead of time … his twitter feed is pretty consistent.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Russia is dropping white phosphorous on the besieged Azovstal plant in Mariupol.
This is a banned weapon, and each incendiary element burns at 5000 degrees Fahrenheit. Melting flesh, they continue to burn fiercely until deprived of oxygen.

There are 600 wounded trapped inside.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

In intercepted phone call, Russian soldier confirms use of forbidden weapons.

"Phosphorous bombs, cluster munitions – they have allowed us to use everything that is banned," a Russian serviceman says to a friend. The recording was published by the Ukrainian Security Service.
Kyiv Inependent.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Finland officially announces that it will apply for NATO membership.

Finnish President Sauli Niinisto and Prime Minister Sanna Marin made the announcement at a joint news conference.

kyiv Independent.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...3&d=1652656398

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...4&d=1652656398

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1652656398

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Swedish Social Democratic Party took a historic decision to say yes to apply for a membership in the NATO defence alliance. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has deteriorated the security situation for Sweden and Europe as a whole.

Source Ann Linde, Sweden's Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Putin seems to be achieving the exact opposite of what he had planned. He should give up now and accept that he's lost his touch. Or maybe his mind.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Latest British intelligence:

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1652717574

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1652780726

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-n...-city-12541713

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

The Ukrainians are collecting the shipments in Poland and driving them over the border themselves. So if the Russians have successfully hit a shipment - and that is itself doubtful as they have shown little ability to hit moving targets from a distance so far - then they haven’t directly hit any NATO personnel. Not ones any NATO country would acknowledge were there, anyway.

I think there’s no doubt the Russians fired a missile at something they identified as an arms shipment. Whether it was an arms shipment, and whether their missile landed within 50 yards of it, is another matter entirely.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

SKY don't seem to have got the story quite right yet (although that's what the Kremlin may be saying).

From what I have gathered from the several verified Ukrainian reporters I follow (as well as other strategists etc) is this.

250+ Azov casualties had been ordered to surrender so they could be evaquated as a prisoner swap deal had been arranged.

53 of the casualties needed urgent medical attention and taken where they can recieve it.

The remainder of the Azov regiment (and others) remain in place as negotiations for their evacuation, possibly to a third Country for the remainder of the conflict, continue.

As always in a conflict zone there are always mixed messages from either side for different reasons. We'll know in a few days.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

BREAKING: Russian gymnast gets 1-year ban for displaying 'Z' on podium.

Ivan Kuliak was seen wearing a taped "Z," Russia's war symbol used by those supporting the invasion of Ukraine, while standing near a Ukrainian athlete on March 6 at the world cup in Qatar. - Kyiv Independent.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

A little more but still confusion about what's happening at Azovstol via Kyiv Independent.

Volodymyr Zelensky Addresses Cannes Film Festival.

https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/sta...48094578655239

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...2&d=1652877786

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Putin unleashes bog buster bomb.

VLADIMIR Putin's consolidation of the Russian hold on the Donbas has hit yet another snag, just as Russian forces are humiliated in a mistaken strike on a beach toilet in Odesa.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...-donbas-update

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

A great story

Ukrainian man drives 3,700km to be reunited with parents and fiancee – who live just 10km away
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...just-10km-away

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Good, sounds like he was being deliberately antagonistic and trying to upset the Ukranian athlete to put them off.

There again, he might have been instructed to do it by Putins gang.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I read an interesting article in the FT - "Military briefing: Ukraine seeks way to break Russia’s Black Sea blockade"

It reminded us that Russia's navy has enjoyed a far more successful war than its army has, despite the well-publicised loss of the Moskva.

The recent missiile fired on Lviv that destroyed weapons donated by the West was fired by the Russian navy. And the navy quickly took control of the Black Sea and closed off the Sea of Azov at the start of the war. Ukraine has a tiny navy since Russia took over the Crimea.

Russia has been able to impose a naval blockade that has ended Ukraine's ability to export grain, its main export. Military strategists call this “sea blindness” — the inability to see the crucial role that naval power plays in a country’s security and economy.

Subscriber link:
https://www.ft.com/content/8151ba97-...9-234c532b2481

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

So how likely do you think it is that Russia will attack the UK with Nuclear weopons and should we be worried?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Extremely unlikely. No rational actor would initiate a nuclear first strike because of the absolute certainty of devastating retaliation. Even if Putin isn’t rational, plenty of the people who would actually be asked to carry out the nuclear order are.

As for worry, well an ongoing interest in world affairs is healthy, but don’t worry.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Seems some Russians are finally waking up to reality.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...raine-invasion

Here's the statement.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1653339155

Also this may be worth a read re-Russian Air Forces.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...kraine/629803/

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Thanks for the links pip. Very interesting. Just hope Mr Bondarev doesn't have a nasty accident. He's a very brave man to speak out so publically against Putin.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

You're joglynne. I wonder if Mr Bondarev will be confident in returning home or if he will seek refuge in another Country

I'm also surprised no Senior Air Force Commanders have yet been suspended and replaced.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I suspect he may have family still in Russia who can be used to force him to return. Whether he, or they, will ever be seen again is, I think, highly unlikely.

If Senior Commanders of any of Putins armed forces were to be suspended /replaced I suspect it would drive a wedge between the remaining upper military echelon and Putin which he would find impossible to overcome. Fingers crossed, somethings got to happen to get rid of the man.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

First, my post should have said "you're welcome". ;)

Now,

What of the above is entirely true? Who knows. I tend to think it is.

I'll leave you with this from Jennifer Cafarella, a brilliant Chief of Staff & National Security Fellow from the ISW (Institue for the Study or War.).


It may be from about 2 weeks ago but melds with the Ukraine mindset.
Take note of the comment "not to publish". at about 3.05.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

BREAKING: The United States is preparing to send long-range rocket systems to Ukraine
In a potentially significant development, the US is reportedly preparing to send advanced, long-range rocket systems to Ukraine. News of what would be a notable step-change in the kind of weapons the Biden adminisration is providing follows pleas from President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for such systems, which can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of miles.

However, there are concerns in some quarters that they could be used to strike targets inside Russia and risk escalation. The Biden administration is believed to be leaning toward sending the weapons as part of a package that could be announced as soon as next week, - CNN

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Latest UK Intel update.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1653646529

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Great news, I know Zelensky has been pleading for these types of weapons.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

While I’m all for Ukraine gaining some upper ground, this is potentially very dangerous. If Ukraine starts firing long range missiles in to Russia, Putin may escalate and respond with nuclear confrontation.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Agreed.

My belief is Zelensky can be trusted on this and it will speed up the end of the invasion.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

The Ukrainians are unlikely to start lobbing missiles at Russia just because they can. They understand the need to keep the West onside - it’s the West that’s giving them the kit they need to stay in the fight. The talk is now about long-range attritional warfare over the summer, so they are going to need every long-range missile they can get just for that purpose. For Ukraine to stop the Russian advance, and have any hope of pushing it back, they need to destroy as much Russian war material as they can. That will get harder to do as the Russian ability to advance is worn down and it is no longer possible to simply pick off tanks with MLAWS and Javelins at short range. To get at them once they’re dug in, long-range equipment is needed.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Agreed it’s unlikely, but I’m only echoing the concern other folk are pointing out.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Don't know if this is true but I hope it is, a Russian climber just reached the summit of Everest and the flag she unfurled wasn't Russian, it was Ukrainian!

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

TRUE

https://www.newsweek.com/russian-cli...kraine-1713693

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Probably best for her to stay in Nepal and not bother with the home flight.....

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

BREAKING: Local Russian Media are reporting two British men and a Moroccan man who were fighting for Ukraine have been sentenced to death by a Russian-backed court in the 'Donetsk People's Republic' in Eastern Ukraine.

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-w...-says-12630854

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Worrying reports that Ukraine is starting to run out of (Artillery) ammunition and needs the West to ramp up supplies. Let's hope they can in time.

Lets hope this whole thing dies off before it gets worse!!

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

There is a Russian side to the story that I am starting to see trickle through (without me going looking) Like how the democratic government of Ukraine was over thrown 2014 and the current leadership simply a puppet for right wing overlords. On top of that severe racist mistreatment of Russians promoted by said leaders.

Not expressing any opinion but like I said right from the start we are seeing a hell of a lot of anti Russian propaganda and I personally have been treating all the news on it pretty much as such

2 sides to every story and war I guess and we are only hearing one side

---------- Post added at 15:53 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

in fact if you look Ukraine has been incredibly unstable for a very long time

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

None of Ukraine’s difficulties over the past 20 years compare to being invaded by a despot and having their civilian population raped and then shot dead.

‘Putin the Russian nationalist with justifiable concerns that must be taken account of’ is the line the FSB has been dripping in to western media for years, precisely so that we would be minded to let him get on with it. The view you’re expressing is perilously close to Neville Chamberlain’s argument that it was reasonable for Hitler to invade the Sudetenland (which was sovereign Czechoslovakian territory) because its inhabitants were German-speaking.

Hitler took Chamberlain’s appeasement for the weakness that it was, and he therefore didn’t stop with the Sudetenland. Chamberlain ultimately only declared war because the UK was treaty-bound to come to Poland’s aid, and he continued to argue for a negotiated peace with Hitler until after Dunkirk, by which time Churchill was PM and insisting on continuing the fight (and Chamberlain was at death’s door with cancer).

Decades of accommodating Putin’s world view has brought us here. Ukraine is a sovereign, independent country, recognised by the United Nations and not under censure by any resolution. There really are not two sides to this - Russia’s ‘side’ is a chimera, the work of years of propaganda aimed at people who like to think they’re free thinking and even handed.

Don’t do the FSB’s work for it.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

There may be two sides to every story, but when one of those sides repeatedly invades and illegally seizes land from another country and sets up puppet regimes, perhaps it's salient not to fully not trust that side's story...

You may find this of interest - it's from Al Jazeera, not renowned for it's pro-Western bias.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...ndence-in-1991

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I had to get as far as Al Jazeera to realise you didn’t mean the Americans.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Is it salient to trust either sides story though?

As I said anyway I have no opinion on it just do not believe everything I read from both sides

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

I am not going to say that is not happening I am simply going to say I am not going to believe it just because we are being told it

You really truly think what we are getting fed is not propaganda also? seriously?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Problem with sitting on the fence is that the Russians will probably annex it… ;)

Look at what has happened so far - if Russia just wanted to ‘protect Russian speakers’, why are they flattening the towns they live in? Why did they try to take Kyiv?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

That’s a perfectly reasonable position to take.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

With propaganda then look at how it's actually pretty difficult for Russia to effectively enforce it in their home country. They've had to kick out or shut down independent stations and block social networks. If Russia were so confident in their 'side' they would not need to be doing this.

You might have a point that we're being fed propaganda too but it's not just the U.K media here is it? You have the United States as well. If you think they're in cahoots then look at the media from Europe. Hugh has linked you to Al Jazeera. This is a pretty broad amount of reporting from countries that aren't all geopolitically aligned.

What happened in 2014 is well-documented by several independent outlets which you can go read. There are also explanations of the 'Nazi problem' in Ukraine in Western outlets.

And so yes you can say you don't believe everything you read but I don't really see how that gets us anywhere. That could be said of 95% of the things that are happening in this world. At some point you're allowed to believe something to be true, it's not ruling out what you understand to be true can change when giving new information.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

May I ask you where you think believing things gets us anyway? what do you think anyone here can do about it?

I know I am allowed to believe what I will same as I am allowed to distrust anything I want also.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Believe/trust in gravity.

It doesn’t care if you believe in it or not, the end result is the same.

Scepticism is fine, but if you are stating that the weight of evidence coming from multiple disparate sources, including many States, media organisations, tech companies (like the privately owned satellite companies providing info about this conflict), and individuals sending back uncensored photos & media from the conflict, is balanced by that coming from a repressive State who are trying to justify their illegal actions and whose Government has passed laws making it illegal to doubt the Russian Government line on the conflict in The Ukraine, you’re not being sceptical…

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Hugh just accept you are you and I am me I will be how I want that ok with you bud?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I don’t think diversity is the problem here.

The problem is that simply observing there are two sides in a conflict isn’t enough. In fact, stopping there is at its worst moral cowardice. Note I’m not accusing you of that - I suspect you’re declining to post what you really think is going on because you may think there’s a theological dimension to it you’d rather not get into, and that’s fair enough. I’m trying not to get drawn into deep discussion of military tactics on other forums for similar reasons.

That said, if possible, it would be interesting to get your take on what really is happening. Who is the aggressor? Who is the victim? If there’s a plague on both their houses, why?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Tell me Chris what exactly are you doing about the war? besides posting about it on a forum?

As for my take on it I simply do not know. On one hand there is a country invaded for whatever reason then on the other hand you have a once great nation slowly being surrounded by their ideological enemies.

Trust me I am no friend of the Russians. They imprison my fellow believers and have banned our faith

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Our Ukrainian guest comes from Dnipro where she lived with her son. When the nearby bridges & army camps were hit, she felt she had no choice but to leave. Her son remains behind. I also met a lady, a couple of days ago, who is 8 months pregnant and she fled from Sumy, near the Russian border, to Moldova and then to Romania. She is on her own here, her husband remains to fight.

Both are Russian speaking Ukrainians and they, and all the people they know, hate Putin with a passion. Yes, Ukraine was/is flawed: there is corruption, similar to other ex-Soviet regions but it is their country, not Putin's and they will never give in.

Don't be fooled, Putin is a facist and he does not care how many innocents he kills. He is evil by anyone's definition. It really is that simple.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

In fairness, we don’t care how many he kills either. That’s why we have taken the women and children over here and are leaving the men to be fodder in a proxy war with second hand weapons. The military industrial complex profits go up as NATO rearms itself replacing the weapons donated to Ukraine.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

So are those in Ukraine who trade in Children.

This is my whole point we are getting drummed into us Russia Bad Ukraine Good and it just is not as simple as that

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

My favourite piece of propaganda was the so-called “Ghost of Kyiv”, lapped up and regurgitated by western media and it turns out didn’t exist at all. A complete myth.

I think you’re definitely right to hold a healthy scepticism for western media lines - media who have demonstrated themselves to be effective state apparatus by peddling misinformation under the guise of “journalism”.

In the 1970s you’d have found many parroting the benefits of arming the mujahadeeen in Afghanistan. It’s no surprise given there’s no appetite for the spilling of western blood following the embarrassment of surrendering Afghanistan that the USA are now outsourcing it’s wars to unsavoury groups.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

It’s rarely helpful to talk in moral absolutes, however I’m not convinced that’s what we’re seeing happen here. There is much talk of innocent Ukraine and wicked Russia, but to infer these are absolute judgments on their societies is absurd.

Ukraine is a democratic country with a government and borders recognised by the UN and by the entire world, with the recent exception of Russia. It has the right to have its territorial integrity respected and its civilian population has the right to life, even in the event of enemy invasion. These are matters of international law to which Russia is a signatory. Yet Russia has invaded and is ravaging great swathes of the country with no regard for the civilian population.

Unless you’re prepared to stand up and say that Russia is God’s chosen instrument for the judgment of a wicked society, then pointing to Ukraine’s moral failings as an attempt to sound even handed in debate is equivocation of the worst kind.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

A harsh & cynical take. We (as in the UK populace) do care how many he kills. Also, we are not leaving the men behind, the Ukrainians decide who can leave and who has to stay.

The reasons behind the choice of weapons sent are complex: the risk of sending the latest tech is self-evident plus the training prereq for the more advanced weaponry is also a barrier.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

You are incredibly judgemental for a man of your position Chris.

Ukraine had a democratic government that had alliances with Russia overthrown and replaced with a democratic government with alliances with the west and now the West are backing them against Russia. Funny that so you not think?

You only have to do a little search to see what has gone on in Ukraine people trafficking and child sex trafficking and the right wing aspects to see it is not as clean a nation as the West are making it out to be.

I am leaving God out of my discussions on the forum due to how you treated me last time Chris so please do not try to draw me into conversations on such matters

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Actually I think a lot of the myths are being generated by Ukraine itself. Zelensky recognised quite early on that Western nations wouldn’t pour their weapons into the country just for them to be captured by Russia. Ukraine has fought an epic propaganda war to show itself worth betting on. Western media laps it up because that’s just what it does.

We live in a society conditioned by blockbuster sci fi and superhero films where it’s difficult for the masses to think in terms more complex than ‘hero’ and ‘villain’. That means we tend to extend the black-and-white judgment far further than we ought to. Ukrainians aren’t angels just because they’ve been invaded. The simple matter is that the rules-based international order that has held more-or-less steady since 1945 relies on countries not doing what Russia is doing right now. Coffee house debates over the relative moral standing of the two nations involved in this war shouldn’t be allowed to obfuscate that.

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 ----------

Jay … seriously, don’t post on a discussion forum if you don’t want your views challenged. Debate and wise judgment is healthy, but it also requires a willingness to be disagreed with. Jfman is about to disagree with me. That’s fine. Frustrating at times, but fine. This is just how it works.

As for sex trafficiking, well Russia isn’t the sex trafficking police so far as I’m aware. There are ways of dealing with such things; flattening Mariupol with artillery and raping women in Bucha after shooting their husbands in the head aren’t it.

The rights and wrongs of this war have nothing to to with the moral state of either country. Ukraine’s borders should be respected.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

It gets us to the same place you think we're being led with propaganda. What information forms our understanding of the world is important as that's what leads us all to make the decisions we make.

Ultimately what you and I believe on this isn't important in the grand scheme of things but I am talking of the wider principle that when there are conflicting narratives of an event it isn't wrong to come to your own understanding of what is happening in the world. It's possible for example to believe Ukraine has far-right elements within it, no one is disputing that, but that has very little to do with the Russian invasion of a democratic nation.

Yes? But you're posting on a forum so we're debating it.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Chris seriously where did I say anything about not challenging my views. I simply asked you not to try and draw me into religious discussions as I do not wish to discuss such matters with you after last time.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

TBH I know I have no influence on what goes on in the grand scheme of things so am quite happy to go on oblivious to most things and just get on with my life. Works pretty well for me. TBH if it was not for the tech side of things and the entertainment section of this forum I would not be posting on here at all and to be quite honest I wish I could go back and not have posted what I did about the 2 sides the other day

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

:tu:

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Cough cough Iraq

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

The origin of the myths are irrelevant if the Western media is complicit in spreading them. You pass this off as “just what it does” as if it’s an innocent bypasser when throughout history Western media is often complicit with Western governments in pushing comfortable narratives and wartime agendas as the basis for intervention.

This case is no different.

The rules based international order doesn’t count for much if the rules only apply to those who aren’t allied to the United States position, and it’s absolute hypocrisy to pretend it should. Tab it up on the agenda for the coffee houses because it’s entirely hypothetical.

In the real world the United States and it’s allies have acted with impunity throughout the world, intervening in civil wars, toppling democratically elected governments and manufacturing evidence along the way so long as it suits it’s own economic ends. The failures of the last couple of decades have emboldened Russia, and likely China. But to fall back on a self-righteous narrative of being the good guys and asking everyone to play nicely under a pretence of meaningful international law isn’t going to work.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Here:

You’re trying to get me to stop challenging you by accusing me of being ‘judgmental’, which, let’s face it, is an attempt to appeal to the Bible and therefore hard to understand if you really don’t want to open a religious dimension to this discussion.

We all make judgments every day about all sorts of things. Not being judgmental in a Biblical sense has a particular meaning and application. Telling someone on a discussion forum you think they’re wrong about something probably isn’t it.

---------- Post added at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

A fair comment, and our interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan must be seen as part of the overall backdrop to this. When history is written I expect they will be.

Nevertheless, whataboutery won’t get us anywhere while the war is raging in Ukraine. Russia’s sense of emboldenment does not mean Ukraine should submit, nor does it mean Western nations should not support it.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I’m not sure how being consistently on the wrong side of history can be considered whataboutery as NATO sacrifice the young men of Ukraine fighting a proxy war.

As for getting us anywhere - unless someone has an active military role I'm unaware of - this is just noise on the internet.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

It’s whataboutery if a past wrong is being used to justify or excuse a present wrong. Ukraine should not be invaded. That’s still international law regardless of anything that has happened before. Past wrongs may help explain and understand present wrongs but they do not justify them.

I think you’re doing down the internet a bit though. As we live in a democracy, open spaces where we can discuss the things our government does in our name are a good thing, even if they’re open to abuse.

As for the motivations of Western governments in supporting Ukraine, well sure, it’s awfully convenient for them to see Russia’s entire army being gradually blown to pieces in the Donbas. It’s likewise convenient for them to see how their equipment, and Russia’s, behaves in the field. This might just be the biggest alliance of convenience in history. But even if it is, does Ukraine have the right to repel an invasion and live securely within its borders, or does it not?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

You’re ignoring points where the “past wrong” was being portrayed as the “past right”. This requires us to trust our governments who in the past have taken the approach the ends justified the means and put out disinformation in the process to carry public opinion. But of course this time is always different because <insert reason>. It was forever thus.

If you can point to a meaningful time any contributor of the CF Current Affairs section changed public policy (or even the mind of another member) I’d like to see it. That said I’m in no way criticising open discussion - I’m merely not under the illusion that any insight offered here is meaningful in the long run or will get “us” anywhere. It’d be delusions of grandeur in the extreme to believe that.

No more and no less than the rights of people in the disputed areas to have self-determination without interference from Kyiv or NATO. This is the classic western dilemma - it supports the rights of some people but not others on the basis of it’s own interests.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I believe in the public more than you, might have something to do with going on a march some years ago when a million plus others felt strongly enough to get of their backsides and make their voices heard, these liars and charlatans get caught out and seen through in the end, I wonder how long Blair would have been in charge without that decision and how everytime he opens his mouth he's rightly imo treated with contempt

If you can point to anyone in Russia having conversations like this I'd like to see it

I remember having that discussion with Hugh when Russia annexed South Ossetia, about the right of the people that lived there to decide their future, if we'd acted then we may not be here now, Hitler and the Sudetenland spring to mind.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Or Russia…

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

It’s somewhat depressing to see the FSB’s ‘lines to take’ being peddled so uncritically.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Likewise the USA’s.

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:49 ----------

Indeed, but there’s others out there to peddle the USA friendly lines on such matters. Jaymoss initially joined the discussion simply to state he believed there to be more to it and that we shouldn’t necessarily trust the dynamic being peddled to us by our politicians or our media. He’s almost certainly right unless this is the first time in history (no laughing at the back) the USA have sought to intervene in a war that it didn’t have ulterior motives and turn into a proxy war for its own long term interests.

Prolonging the war almost certainly benefits the USA. Less so the future Ukrainian widows in the west for whom a peace agreement and returning home to reunite their families would be a good starting point.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Ending the war prematurely rewards Russia, and punishes the people and the democratically elected Government of The Ukraine.

Spin it however you want, The Ukraine didn’t invade Russia or bombard innocent civilians in Russia.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I’ve never contested those points (there’s some facts and those are indeed two of them).

However your absolutist view on ending the war “prematurely” and the disadvantages of doing so depend on the price people are willing to pay.

Chris very eloquently reflects USA’s interests in a long term battle. Bogging Russia down in a Vietnam on it’s own doorstep. At what point do Ukrainians cease fighting primarily for their own interests and start fighting in America’s? America can keep flooding in dollars and weapons until Ukraine is razed to the ground, I doubt the dead or displaced who could never return home would see that as a win.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Ukraine get to decide when they want to look to end the war by making concessions. They'll have support to do so because countries like France and Germany are clearly equivocating on their outright support for Ukraine as energy prices mount. I even imagine the UK and USA wouldn't be too against lifting of energy sanctions either.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

As it should be.

I hope Zelensky doesn’t get too cocky with US weapons and US money when considering what’s a credible outcome for both parties.

With Karzai trousering CIA money throughout his leadership and Afganistan state assets being robbed to fund compensation for Saudi backed crimes on US soil, one doesn’t have to look far to see US long term commitments aren’t credible once their strategic objectives achieved and political will exhausted. Failure to learn those lessons will leave a high price to be paid exclusively by the Ukrainian people.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61767191



---------- Post added at 17:53 ---------- Previous post was at 17:49 ----------

Pretty sure giving up additional territory to Russia, or letting them get off scot free* after they’ve killed thousands of Ukrainians, displaced 13 million people, and pulverised most of their cities, wouldn’t be seen as "credible" by Zelenskyy or the Ukrainian people…

*Putin’s stated aims

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I’m wondering if you’ve given even a moment’s thought for the civilians being raped and murdered in occupied territory, or whether for you this war is just a very good day to fulminate agains the USA.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

The UK and US got away with their war over weapons of mass destruction that killed plenty so getting away with war crimes is kinda like in their purview. Blair is now even a Knight

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I’m not convinced more war will result in less rape and less murder, in fairness.

I acknowledged the high price the Ukrainian people are paying and would pay in a prolonged war above. To be more clear yes, I meant more than a financial price when I stated that.

You yourself acknowledged above the benefits to the USA:

This isn’t toy soldiers. There’s real people out there getting killed every day. For every death there are reprisals. The unpleasant reality of war.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Have you seen thi first hand or just going on what you have been told? I am not saying this is not happening but it is typically the type of thing regularly used in propaganda

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I did indeed acknowledge there are great strategic benefits (to all of NATO, in fact, and not just the USA), but it doesn’t matter how self-interested you think America is, an alignment of interests between NATO and Ukraine doesn’t lessen Ukraine’s right to defend itself in any way, any more than the Western allies’ cause was less just in WW2 for having made a pact with Stalin.

Based on what was discovered in the briefly occupied territories in the north and northeast, Ukraine has every reason to suppose that long-term occupation of the south and southeast would be equally intolerable for Ukrainian citizens there. It is quite at liberty, given the events of 2014 and since, to believe that ceding territory to Russia will not only impoverish those trapped beyond the line of control but give Russia a new start line for its next military action against Kyiv, even if that action is another 10-15 years down the line.

Ukraine clearly - justifiably in my view - sees itself as in an existential struggle, and if it is able, via diplomacy or outright propaganda, to skin Western nations for $billions worth of weapons in order to pursue that struggle as far as it possibly can - even to the complete liberation of its internationally-recognised borders, if possible - then it is free to do so. And no foreign policy aim expressed by the USA or its allies this century changes Ukraine’s basic right to act as it has.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

You don't sound that bothered about the raped, murdered or men of fighting age banned from leaving Ukraine as much once you get on your American imperialist soap box to be fair.

They sound more like fodder at the front line.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

A cheap shot unworthy of someone who styles themselves as an ideas man. Also, wilfully ignorant of the historical resources widely available to it. Our own country’s last existential struggle is still, just, within living memory. Perhaps you should spend some time considering that and thinking about Ukraine’s position on its own terms, instead of insisting on seeing everything through the lens of your seething hatred of America.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Got rid of a horrid dictator and his sons... yes the price was high ... note the first Gulf war.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

If you took all the above to be true - and I'm not sure being a Russian-speaker makes someone Russian - would that be sufficient justification in your book for Russia to invade Ukraine?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I’m sorry, Jaymoss, but if you are seriously bringing religion into this to justify your argument, just don’t’nbother.

We have seen enough evidence of Russian cruelty in this conflict to know that Putin has not got an an ounce of humanity in him. No religious scriptures can excuse him for what he has done. He has invaded his neighbour. That is not on - Ukraine was no threat to him.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

You should have gone to Specsavers
Chris tried to drag me into it and as you would have seen if you could read I refused to engage

You see the bit where I clearly state that "I am leaving God out of my discussions on the forum"