Re: Britain outside the EU
 

no they got 1 billion of tax payers money to stay

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or a "DUP bribe" as it's called in modern parlance.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

British produce to rot in the fields, with demands filled by imports. How can this situation be turned around? Mechanisation? A campaign to get people to work in agriculture? Or should we focus on more value-added industries?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...tead-dxsmbg2rw [subscription]

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I highly doubt he was relying on Eastern European labour in 1983. The Cold War was a little fraught around then.

Regardless, one of the many dodgy consequences of free movement has been the ready availability of cheap, mobile, flexible labour from unaligned, less advanced economies that workers whose livelihoods are rooted in the UK simply cannot compete with. Some British businesses have become hooked on it, and frankly Mr Clarke’s complaints ought to be viewed in a similar way to those of a smackhead moaning that he can’t get his next fix. The solution for our economy is a combination of economic methodone or cold turkey, as befits each case. But he and others need to understand that the exploitable labour tap has been turned off.

Those who survive will be those who find ways to mechanise, or to create sustainable work patterns for primarily British workers, with seasonal migrants plugging gaps, not undercutting locals.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is this the Tony Benn appreciation thread? Margaret Thatcher would be spinning in her grave to hear such words uttered!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There’s several miles of clear blue water between Margaret Thatcher and Tony Benn when it comes to what they believed was necessary to best protect the economy. Benn believed in State ownership of just about everything and he wasn’t against the idea of price controls. Thatcher believed the economy did best when fully exposed to market forces. She sold industries that had been state owned and only introduced significant regulation in instances where that left consumers vulnerable to lack of competition.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Pea pulling, spud picking, sprouts, strawberries, flowers etc etc . . .

Plenty of so called 'casual' work used to be done by students in need of a few bob . . and I bet a few of you can remember local women (and kids) being bused out to farms to do picking ;)

Time moves on though and students, women, and kids now have no time to spare during their daily time consuming mix of daytime TV, Facebook, online shopping etc etc ;)

The really sad part about the story though, is that the idiot jumped into bed with the supermarkets and is probably now finding that it's a lumpy bed that squeaks and rattles loudly, costing more than it's worth :Yes:


edit: Of course, it didn't help when the Govt. and HMRC took away the fun of cash in hand payments too :erm:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If kids are told that if they don't work hard at school, they will end up doing menial work and therefore somehow a failure, you can't really blame them for not being overexcited at the prospect of doing said menial work. See also cooks, cleaners, waiting staff, etc.

The only ways out of that vicious cycle is to either remove the stigma of doing said work, raise wages to make the work more attractive or the easy route used up until now which is immigrant labour

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Could always think about reducing their benefits if they refuse a job.

Many would probably still get some benefits even in a low paid job, but I guess actually having to do something for the money probably contravenes one of the many 'rights' people think they have.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sanctions, as they known already occur. Not just from refusing work either, they can be implemented for failing to provide supporting evidence that they are looking for work. (minimum amount of job searches per day etc.)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

oh come on . . it probably takes people 30 minutes on their £800 smart phone to prove they've been applying for 20 jobs they know they wouldn't have the skill set required to get. :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not how it works…

My wife worked at DWP, and a few of her friends worked at the JobCentre+ - they review the jobs applied for, check they match the "client’s" skillset, and then do random checks to employers.

But don’t let facts get in the way of your opinions…;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That used to be the predominant case but they have tightened it now, the Guvmin has just dished out a contract to REED (who have then subcontracted to multiple others) to get the long term receivers of UC (over 6 months) who are fit and capable of work back into work. Said third parties are also directly capable of implementing sanctions (via DWP) on those people who refuse to attend training, employment coaching, refuse to perform job searches at centres, refuse to attend interviews.


source: SWMBO who is an Ops director for one of these companies.

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 ----------

TBF it USED to be they could get away with that... as i said, significantly tightened now.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If i start using 'perfidious' shoot me ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Strange then, how we have companies moaning they can't get staff yet there are hundreds of Govt. and private establishments that are doing their very best to get those vacancies filled, and applying sanctions to those that refuse employment ;)

Obviously the 'sanctions' are of little concern to the recipients thereof :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Perhaps the jobs offered don’t match the applicants skillset, and the employers don’t want to train them?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If the the jobs offered don’t match the applicants skillset, that would be down to a mistake on the part of the person sending you for the job ;)

However, I freely admit the skillset & training required to pick peas/flowers from a field, or stack boxes of frozen fish fingers onto a pallet, feed freshly plucked chickens into a gutting machine, or even restock shelves in a supermarket are well beyond the capabilities of many :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Location issues too. The jobs may be based where people can't afford to live/perceive they can't afford to live or they have caring responsibilities that tie them to a restricted geography.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why would anyone with a modicum of intelligence offer a pea picking job in Lincolnshire to an unemployed person in Aberdeen or Central London?

Surely the staff behind the desks analyse the data they have before offering a job to someone :shrug: :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Pretty sure we've had this or a very similar conversation before. People in residential areas who are on lower incomes perhaps don't have access to cars and there's a lack of suitable public transport to agricultural areas.

One of the components of the new REED program is that some participants will have driving lessons/tests paid for. I'm unsure what the qualifying criteria are however

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But unemployed who live in agricultural areas probably will have some means of transport.

Those unemployed who live in residential areas will most probably have a means of transport to the factories/shops in their area.

Strange how the unemployed that engage in various illegal substance activities always seem to have transport at hand ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

All this investment we are seeing leave the UK since Brexit, Oh................

https://news.sky.com/story/ellesmere...-vans-12349750

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm sure there will be public transport to locations available, the issue is if it's available at the times needed for shift start/ends

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If people want a job they'll find a way, if they don't want to work . . . they'll find an excuse ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's very easy to people to spout 'word salad' such as the above. The reality is somewhat different.

If someone lives ten miles away from say a veg picking job, Their shift starts at 06:00 but the first public transport doesnt get them there until 07:00 (let's add in a twenty minute walk from where the bus stop is to the actual location of the work)

How would you find a way? Long term UC claimant, little money, can't afford to buy or run a car.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's not always true either.

In many cities and towns to travel across areas is not actually that easy as a lot of transport is aimed at funnelling people from the suburbs into the centre.

So depending where you work it can take hours to travel relatively small distances, and because of the fragmentation of public transport also may take multiple duplicate passes.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Fine, you've persuaded me that getting an unskilled job in the UK is very difficult and almost impossible under some circumstances.

I guess the best thing we can do is allow lots of foreign workers into the country so they can do them.

Oh hang on, wouldn't those same foreigners encounter exactly the same problems you've highlighted?

:p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The applicants apply for the jobs, not the JobCentre+…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

*cough*

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They review the jobs the applicants said they applied for (after they had applied for them) - it is a post hoc review, not a preview (otherwise the jobs would be out of date, as JC+ visits are fortnightly).

*cough cough*

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why not answer the question I've asked you?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sorry, must have missed that during all the excitement

*How would you find a way? Long term UC claimant, little money, can't afford to buy or run a car.*

A) I'd walk, like I did when I was younger, 3 miles there and back until I had enough money for . .

B) A cheap pushbike, no need for a full bells n whistles £600 one, just a simple bike that gets you from home to work and back.

C) Car sharing, after the first week there's bound to be someone living fairly local (screw covid, it's a job)


of course, all of the answers above are irrelevant as we've now proven the foreigners can do it so much better can't they :rolleyes:

edit: oh, and the walking to work bit, I did that when married with a 1 yr old child and a mortgage, just so you don't think it only applies to single people living in a bedsit. :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's a story I brought to this very forum some time ago. I work with people from all over the EU in my local office. One of the managers, a Hungarian lady had her 18 year old brother come over to the UK ostensibly to improve his English.

While here, he worked in a number of causal jobs - building site labourer, washing up in a restaurant, pot man in a pub and a cleaner. If he didn't like a job, he moved and got a different one in a day or so, he was almost never out of work. His opinion of long term unemployed people, especially young people with no commitments wasn't great! He could not understand how anyone could be out of work.

He was Norman Tebbits dream, he got on his bike and found work.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:tu: I was trying so very hard not to mention Norman Tebbit :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ha, I just came in here to post this. :D

There’s no doubt though, Brexit will destroy our automotive industry. :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Car factory remains open? Hardly a spectacular Brexit success story is it ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

“Car factory remains open” is always a good economy/industry story. Whenever a model comes to the end of its life and a new one is designed, the whole factory has to be re-tooled and the workforce trained to build it. In this multinational era of car manufacturing this is always a vulnerable time for a factory because it’s an opportunity for governments in other countries (or indeed, international organisations with ‘regional development funds’ to dish out) to tempt them to install their new tools and train new workers in a shiny new factory somewhere the wages are low.

So the recent Nissan and Vauxhall stories are great news on their own terms because their survival was never a given. They are further notable, however, because the referendum remain campaign seemed so sure that Britain could never retain its car industry outside of the EU. Clearly they were wrong. Again.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As opposed to closing, which is what remainers said would happen.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hopefully, at least for the Nissan deal, the fact that the French Government, own 6.4% of the company should sweeten the deal from that side (Renault own 43% of Nissan and the French Government own 15% of Renault)

Vauxhall being owned by a Dutch company can't hurt either

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Reality: The plant's owner said its future was threatened by no-deal...something which many on this Forum were keen advocates of. Fortunately, BoJo negotiated a deal.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/29/vauxh...oney-10479097/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Did the Metro (news . . . but not as you know it) also write stories about house prices crashing? ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Daily Express doing its best to clutch at straws.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...orts-latest-vn

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Been a while since we had a post in here, let's try this one . .

EU unveils sweeping climate change plan

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57833807

I believe Australia aren't too happy about it either, and India make a lot of (cheap) steel :erm:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

With 50 dead in Belgium and Germany from flooding, you can understand why they are looking at such plans.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-57853014

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I doubt their 'plans' are going to change anything, there are much larger countries in the World ripping forests up and/or still using coal to provide energy.

For every step taken to solve Climate Change, there are two steps taken in the other direction by those who's economy relies on harmful practices.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm not sure that's a valid argument for not trying.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm not saying they shouldn't try. I have no problem with people trying, in fact I'm getting to quite enjoy watching people waste their time on lost causes . . of which there seems to be an abundance

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The EU aren't all that happy with things going on in Hungary either . . it's all starting to kick off :Yes:

Decided to add a link . . . just an opinion piece on Aljazeera, but it's a very good read with some classy touches about some reactions from the toothless EU :D

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2...y-break-the-eu

*orders extra popcorn

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well, I think it’s worth making an effort for my children and grandchildren…

---------- Post added at 21:56 ---------- Previous post was at 21:54 ----------

Well, since Poland and Hungary are the two biggest recipients of EU money, win-win…;)

(nearly 17 billion Euros per year)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Pretty sure saving 17 billion euros a year will adversely affect Poland and Hungary more than the EU saving that amount…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sadly, I fear that if you substitute UK for EU then you will be closer to being on the money.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A potential saving of 17 Billion Euros a year would be a nice windfall for the EU . . but only if they can remove Hungary & Poland from it.

A snippet from my link in a post above, it's quite funny in a way, and the part in bold is like icing on the cake ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As long as we all implode it's fine

Is 17 billion a lot for a country, I suppose it is really, even one bloc sized, probably 10% of the budget freed up to spaff up the wall as bozo so eloquently put it

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Slightly under the radar but it seems like Steve Barclay stated in parliament yesterday that we might be looking to opt back in to Horizon (scientific research), Copernicus (GPS for Europe) and Euratom (nuclear regulation) with the UK making a 'proportionate contribution'

See here at 15:30

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It was just the government being puritanical and not pragmatic that ended our membership of these bodies. As I said to Seph, our relationship with the EU will grow closer by necessity, it's not a binary relationship and Steve Barclay's statement further underlines that point.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

On the contrary - the negotiations, particularly around our involvement in Copernicus, became bogged down in the wider context of the treaty defining the UK’s future relationship with the EU. The EU believed our continuing access to the military-grade data generated by the system, a significant chunk of which was developed and paid for in the UK, was strategically so important to us that we would be desperate to retain it and that they could therefore use it to exact concessions. The UK negotiators therefore simply took it off the table and invested in OneWeb, in order to demonstrate the seriousness of its resolve.

Now the treaty is signed these issues can be addressed on their own terms, without those idiots in Brussels attempting to make European security contingent on fishing quotas.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe we should have linked it to fishing quotas as that's not worked out well for us!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Obviously the small print will be of interest before some decide if the EU is still our enemy here. I would be surprised if EU law doesn't apply here with membership

Re: Britain outside the EU - Scotland outside UK
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Last posted in by you around 2 months ago. ;)

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...8#post36079208

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Default thread list is from last month, if it had not been posted in after that time, you need to select the options for viewing it depending on time of last post at the bottom of the forum table.

Re: Britain outside the EU: Kicking off at last
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The EU is acting as Spain’s proxy and attempting to overturn the Treaty of Utrecht, which, Spain always prefers to forget, gives a solid legal basis for British sovereignty over the Rock. That basis is vastly sounder than that which Spain relies on with respect to Melilla and Ceuta (“OK, Morocco, you can have your independence, but we’re hanging on to these two cities right here, just because it suits us”). Spain pretends its African colonies are integral to the Spanish State, while the UK has never sought to claim Gibraltar is anything more than it actually is: namely, territory ceded by a treaty ending a war. There are comparable territories all over Europe.

Meanwhile in Northern Ireland, I think it’s clear HMG never intended to make it work but signed it just to get the deal done. I think they’re planning to play chicken with the EU, and betting that now the new arrangements are established and working, they won’t risk collapsing the whole thing if the UK unilaterally abrogates its responsibilities in this area. Given the present, highly aligned state of the UK and EU markets, it would be very difficult for the EU to demonstrate anything more than a purely theoretical risk to its much-vaunted market rules. Are they puritanical enough to blow it all up? Interesting times ahead.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In general, if an entity shows it can't be trusted, why should it be trusted the next time one tries to deal with it?

People/countries aren't judged on what they say they'll do, but on what they actually do - why should anyone sign a treaty/deal with the UK if six months later we say "oh, we didn't think it would work, but just signed it to get the deal done"?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or you could answer the question, rather than insulting the questioner…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I suspect they’re taking a calculated risk in unique circumstances and believe they can successfully paint the EU as the bad actor interfering with the territorial integrity of a sovereign state.

I agree countries are judged on their actions, but I disagree with your implication that trust can be so comprehensively lost in the way you’re suggesting, over one incident - especially where the circumstances are so specific.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

David Frost talking about honesty boxes for goods destined not to leave Northern Ireland. Nice idea, but as even the keenest Leaver would concede, the UK government is acting with little honesty with regard to the NI Agreement. Frost's efforts to renegotiate from a position of weakness look doomed. Could this be another U-turn or does David Frost have an ace up his sleeve, and not the "specific and limited" aka joker card he tried to play before?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I would normally agree with you over the "one incident" scenario, but unfortunately, our current PM is renowned for his lack of consistency and flip-flopping when pushed by others (within and without the Party).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It really sounds like you’ve cut and pasted that from somewhere else :scratch:

First: is HMG negotiating from a position of weakness? Please quantify. I’ve already outlined where I believe they see the strength of their position: that it’s a matter of territorial integrity that absolves them from accusations of dishonesty and risks to future potential trade deals around the world.

Second: the admission of “specific and limited” violation of international treaties was crafted to enrage remainers, in order to use that rage to convince the EU negotiators that the UK was willing to play hardball. Insiders have described it as “the berserker strategy”. It worked magnificently - Barnier was effectively sidelined from that point onwards because the EU side realised two things, namely that they were going to have to compromise, and that Barnier was too much of a zealot to do it. It’s slightly amusing that you’re still triggered by that line though, so long afterwards.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So the EU could have decided not to uphold the Treaty that both sides agreed to, in a timeframe driven by our PM?

Where does that leave the EU next time another country decides to abrogate a Treaty - setting a precedent like this is never a good thing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

True, but fundamentally, states sign treaties with states, not their government du jour. it might be the heads of government that sign the papers but the treaty binds the permanent apparatus of each state, not the politicians presently controlling them. If a state is generally regarded as an upholder of the rule of law then one numpty in charge for a few years is not going to fundamentally alter that perception.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's a position of weakness as the UK cannot offer the EU anything in return. No EU negotiator is going to sell this to the member states who would need to vote on it. This seems largely intended for internal consumption.
Some have said it's from the Putin play book. When things aren't going well domestucallt, pick a fight overseas. I don't think that's the case here but I'm sure it will give the leader writers of the Express and Sun plenty of column inches.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's not over one incident though, we might not have been liked 20 years ago but we were respected and to a certain extent trusted but ever since the Iraq war our prestige has plummeted

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The trouble is the UK is now coming across consistently as reneging on its promises. There was the original threat to breach the NI treaty in a "specific and limited" manner which went down badly in the EU and US, there was the u-turn in the aid commitment and now this attempt to re-write an agreement.
Trust is easy to lose and harder to gain. If the UK acted in a more trustworthy manner, we may have harnessed our goodwill to renegotiate the NI agreement. Unfortunately, our goodwill tank is currently empty.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Does any one wish to borrow 1/2 ounce of patriotism, this thread is rapidly running out of it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I have plenty of patriotism, thanks - you’re probably confusing it with your large stockpile of nationalism… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I can understand why some people blather on about the UK being untrustworthy.

I can't understand why they believe that the UK is the only one :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Must be stealth patriotism, it's not showing on my radar;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re the second point. I don't think they do but other countries are not the ones asking for the NI agreement to be fundamentally altered.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

aah I see . . . it only applies in specific situations ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Think of it as a credit check. You only conduct them when someone asks for credit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why on earth should the EU be allowed to control something as simple as a private individual sending a parcel from GB to NI. Just crazy.
The problems are from what the EU insists the restrictions should be via the Joint Committee.
IIRC the supermarkets weren't anticipating any problems, so the the issue can't be in the NI protocol itself, but what the EU dictates in the Joint Committee. All that has to happen is the EU tosses aside all the nasty restrictions in the Joint committee. There is no other solution.
Why is it ok for the EU to be able to ship unapproved items(including parcels) to GB via NI unfettered by any restrictions, but GB not ship things to NI? Unbelievably one-sided and unreasonable, then that's the EU for you.:mad:
Imagine the situation where X & Y are getting divorced, but X can do anything they want, but Y can only do anything, if and only if X agrees. On which planet would a court not dismiss that arrangement as being unfair and unreasonable?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In your opinion.

If you have a credible international source to demonstrate that the UK’s reputation globally as a place to do business has suffered materially, please share it. Such indices do exist. I’m sure you won’t have any trouble.

As regards “specific and limited” - as you continue to carefully ignore, it was crafted to produce precisely the reaction that it got. Only super-triggered remainers are still wailing about it.

And as for good will: clearly you still haven’t worked out what’s actually happening here, despite it having helpfully been spelt out multiple times. Whether you agree with them or not, the UK government is not seriously seeking a renegotiation and doesn’t particularly need the EU’s good will. It believes that the current arrangements are an unacceptable infringement of sovereignty and that in the long run history will agree. It further believes that such interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state is somewhere France and Germany will not go, once it is forcefully presented in those terms internationally (the EU apparatchiks, left to themselves, most likely would do so). Further still, the rest of the trade agreement is bedding in nicely and the flow of goods is near normal. If the EU attempts to suspend the agreement it will be responsible for bringing all that down. Lest we forget, there is a general election in Germany in September and in France next year.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's like getting a parking ticket because one of your wheels touches the white line around your space. Yes that breaks the rules, you "should" get a ticket but if its say an arbitrary line next to a wall with no real space remaining and there is a big SUV on the other side that would block your exit (i.e. it's not causing anyone a problem) common sense would dictate not to bother.


The rules are there to try to stop stuff crossing into the EU that the EU doesn't want or wants to "tax" on entry and visa versa. Is there evidence of industries getting ready to do that and use the island of Ireland as a conduit? They should just let people get on with being people, let goods flow as they have always done, you should be able to spot outliers indicating something odd happening and deal with that. People on either side of the border travelling to buy stuff at better prices really isn't going to hurt either economy and the cost of policing would likely outweigh any income you'd gain.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Even with all the nonsense from the EU and Ireland(who are the main drivers of it), people and businesses would be able to freely move items from the cheaper side of the border. If an item is cheaper in NI, there is nothing to stop somebody moving it to Ireland and selling it. The only thing that would prevent that, is if the item in NI was made artificially more expensive by having a load of nonsense rules applied to it, and guess what is going on.:rolleyes: