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papa smurf 16-12-2020 17:33
Re: Coronavirus
 
What if the turkey has bird flue.:shocked:

Sephiroth 16-12-2020 17:45
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36062494)
What if the turkey has bird flue.:shocked:
It'll stop gobbling.

Pierre 16-12-2020 17:50
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveeb (Post 36062493)
Clearly you're in a bubble with the immediate family so what happens happens, all in it together to quote an old favourite. :rolleyes:
Don’t you see the futility of the argument you have just tried to make.

If they’re asymptomatic it doesn’t matter a jot if you’re in a bubble. My asymptomatic son could come home and infect us all. His asymptomatic elder brother could go back to school and infect his class.

I could go out and infect someone, even when taking pre-cautions etc, etc.

So trying call someone out as being reckless for not taking into account whether guests they may have over at Christmas is pointless and hypocritical- unless they text everyone in their bubble every time they leave the house.

Quote:
The medical authorities are any of the health services who can gain valuable knowledge from your expertise in these matters.
I can’t tell them nothing they don’t already know.

daveeb 16-12-2020 18:05
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062496)
Don’t you see the futility of the argument you have just tried to make.

If they’re asymptomatic it doesn’t matter a jot if you’re in a bubble. My asymptomatic son could come home and infect us all. His asymptomatic elder brother could go back to school and infect his class.

I could go out and infect someone, even when taking pre-cautions etc, etc.

So trying call someone out as being reckless for not taking into account whether guests they may have over at Christmas is pointless and hypocritical- unless they text everyone in their bubble every time they leave the house.


I can’t tell them nothing they don’t already know.
You mentioned BS earlier and you're proving your point nicely above.
You can't control who is normally in your house or to an extent where they've been. What you have described does happen and if/when discovered you all isolate. You don't however have to have multiple extra people in the house, that's an avoidable risk you choose to take.

Pierre 16-12-2020 18:22
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveeb (Post 36062497)
that's an avoidable risk you choose to take.
For Christmas it is yes.

So won’t criticise you for being a worrying Grinch that wants everyone to unreasonably spend Christmas in isolation even though they accept the futility of it.

And you don’t criticise me for being an outrageous risk taker just because I want a few in-laws over for Christmas dinner whilst being sensible and following current guidance.

And the country will be happier place.

Mr K 16-12-2020 18:22
Re: Coronavirus
 
Apparently the vaccine contains a chip so the Govt can control and trace us all....

This virus might have the benefit of bumping off the more stupid who won't have the vaccine. Natural always wins ! ;)

Carth 16-12-2020 18:26
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36062500)
Apparently the vaccine contains a chip so the Govt can control and trace us all....

This virus might have the benefit of bumping off the more stupid who won't have the vaccine. Natural always wins ! ;)
Oh I say old chap, that's a bit harsh considering there are people who, due to medical reasons, are unable - or advised not to - have the vaccine.

:p:

mrmistoffelees 16-12-2020 18:47
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062470)
There's some real BS on here at the moment, but I'll humour you.



No, no need. ( BTW My school hasn't asked for a negative test for my kids to attend.)



That would come under "showing symptoms" header



That requirement is only if you have had symptoms or been in close contact with some that has had symptoms.

There is no such requirement for visiting people or people visiting. but I have requested 3days which is above and beyond what is currently required.



we're not a shop, so there is no such requirement



That is brilliant, quite brilliant. This is where the country is at the moment. If you can't see the rank stupidity in that sentence......well. Or are you just taking the piss for a laugh?

---------- Post added at 16:35 ---------- Previous post was at 16:31 ----------



You're right I haven't, and neither have you.


I didn't say it wasn't anything to worry about.

As I said I will be taking reasonable precautions.



I am using common sense and I haven't invited anyone else that I don't know that I have to consider.

---------- Post added at 16:38 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------



you're right I haven't, and neither have you.



I didn't say it was nothing to worry and I'm taking sensible precautions



I am using common sense, and I've not invited any strangers to consider.
You stated that you and guest would be taking sensible precautions. I’ve listed some, I’m asking you to clarify what ‘sensible precautions’ you and your guests will be taking.

That’s all

daveeb 16-12-2020 18:52
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062499)
For Christmas it is yes.

So won’t criticise you for being a worrying Grinch that wants everyone to unreasonably spend Christmas in isolation even though they accept the futility of it.

And you don’t criticise me for being an outrageous risk taker just because I want a few in-laws over for Christmas dinner whilst being sensible and following current guidance.

And the country will be happier place.
If Bojo wasn't so scared of being the Grinch we wouldn't need this conversation.

nomadking 16-12-2020 19:11
Re: Coronavirus
 
The original claim was:-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062417)
The levels of hysteria on CF (and if it is any reflection, the wider population) at the moment are beyond laughable and bordering on psychosis.

Seeing a few friends and family over Christmas will not harm anyone and will probably do everybody good.
Take precautions act sensibly. Enjoy yourself, Don't worry.
No mention of self-isolating or anything like that. Basically a free for all.
In general, the only possible precautions and acting sensibly involves not meeting up at all. No getting around that.

daveeb 16-12-2020 19:24
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36062506)
You stated that you and guest would be taking sensible precautions. I’ve listed some, I’m asking you to clarify what ‘sensible precautions’ you and your guests will be taking.

That’s all
I suspect it's very technical, possibly ground breaking. Might have to wait for the official article in the Lancet.

Pierre 16-12-2020 19:38
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36062506)
You stated that you and guest would be taking sensible precautions. I’ve listed some, I’m asking you to clarify what ‘sensible precautions’ you and your guests will be taking.

That’s all
I’ve already stated what precautions will be taken.

None of what you suggested was sensible

nomadking 16-12-2020 19:48
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062511)
I’ve already stated what precautions will be taken.

None of what you suggested was sensible
Your claim was that anyone could meet up, not just people connected to you.
Link
Quote:
The outbreak of novel coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) continues to spread rapidly in China. The Chinese Lunar New Year holiday, the start of which coincided with the emergence of COVID-19, is the most celebratory time of the year in China, during which a massive human migration takes place as individuals travel back to their hometowns.
...
Government policies enacted during the Chinese Lunar New Year holiday are likely to have helped reduce the spread of the virus by decreasing contact and increasing physical distance between those who have COVID-19 and those who do not. As part of these social distancing policies, the Chinese Government encouraged people to stay at home; discouraged mass gatherings; cancelled or postponed large public events; and closed schools, universities, government offices, libraries, museums, and factories

Pierre 16-12-2020 20:49
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36062509)
The original claim was:-

No mention of self-isolating or anything like that.
In my very next post after that, the very next one, when asked what that meant I said
Quote:
Like isolating for a few days, not coming if they have symptoms or have been with in contact with someone that has had symptoms.
So
Quote:
Basically a free for all.
No, I don’t even know what that means.

Quote:
In general, the only possible precautions and acting sensibly involves not meeting up at all. No getting around that.
Not in my house.

You guys are very welcome to your isolationist Christmases, although deep down I reckon it’s because that’s what you do every year, but I won’t be.

As stated previously, I will be adhering to Govt guidance whilst enjoying a family Christmas with guests.

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveeb (Post 36062510)
I suspect it's very technical, possibly ground breaking. Might have to wait for the official article in the Lancet.
I’ve already stated it many times.

Anyway Merry Christmas! I’ll be having one, even if you’re not.

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36062512)
Your claim was that anyone could meet up, not just people connected to you.
Link
Just where exactly did I say that?

jfman 16-12-2020 22:34
Re: Coronavirus
 
Pierre how did that golfing holiday to Portugal go?

Pierre 16-12-2020 22:41
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36062526)
Pierre how did that golfing holiday to Portugal go?
Had to bin it, due to Portugal going on the banned list. 8 of us were going, 4 went, 4 stayed. We went to Telford for the weekend instead and played 3 rounds around there.

I would have gone, but if I’d have gone, Mrs Pierre would have had to isolate too when I returned ( unless I stayed in the shed).

But I got my money back, even the flights from Ryanair, which I had mentally written off.

Roll on 2021. If anyone drops out I”ll give you a shout.

jfman 16-12-2020 22:44
Re: Coronavirus
 
That’s a win vs Ryanair. We can set our differences aside for the common enemy there.

Merry Christmas all when it comes. It’s been a sh tty year.

1andrew1 17-12-2020 00:20
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062527)
(unless I stayed in the shed).
:D:D:D

---------- Post added 17-12-2020 at 00:20 ---------- Previous post was 16-12-2020 at 23:41 ----------

Quote:
COVID-19 vaccine rollout may be delayed - with IT system 'failing constantly'

The rollout of the COVID-19 vaccine could be delayed by technical issues, doctors and health officials have warned, after the first week of the vaccination programme was marred by difficulties with data collection.

GP practices have been forced to collect data on the rollout of the Pfizer vaccine by hand, following problems with the software being used to keep track of who has been given the jab.

A senior health official told Sky News that the IT system, known as Pinnacle, was "failing constantly" and that GPs were "having to record on paper and then transfer".
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...antly-12164829

nomadking 17-12-2020 02:43
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062517)
In my very next post after that, the very next one, when asked what that meant I said


So
No, I don’t even know what that means.


Not in my house.

You guys are very welcome to your isolationist Christmases, although deep down I reckon it’s because that’s what you do every year, but I won’t be.

As stated previously, I will be adhering to Govt guidance whilst enjoying a family Christmas with guests.

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------



I’ve already stated it many times.

Anyway Merry Christmas! I’ll be having one, even if you’re not.

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------



Just where exactly did I say that?
Your original post on the matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062417)
The levels of hysteria on CF (and if it is any reflection, the wider population) at the moment are beyond laughable and bordering on psychosis.

Seeing a few friends and family over Christmas will not harm anyone and will probably do everybody good.

Take precautions act sensibly. Enjoy yourself, Don't worry.
In fact there's not even a mention of it including your household. Eg "Take precautions" rather than "we have taken precautions", "act sensibly" rather than "we have acted sensibly, "enjoy yourself" rather than "we are going to enjoy ourselves", "don't worry" rather than "we're not worried".
You only came up with the list of excuses that have been debunked, when challenged about it.
A household having isolated itself, doesn't come under "take precautions" or "act sensibly". Those 2 things refer to what happens at the gathering, not before it.

There will be households that have fully isolated themselves, but that restriction wasn't in your original post. That made your original post a "free for all", where any households could get together.

Pierre 17-12-2020 08:09
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36062538)
Your original post on the matter
it’s so sad that you are desperate to prove that I said something that I clearly didn’t.

Quote:
In fact there's not even a mention of it including your household. Eg "Take precautions" rather than "we have taken precautions", "act sensibly" rather than "we have acted sensibly, "enjoy yourself" rather than "we are going to enjoy ourselves", "don't worry" rather than "we're not worried".
That post is clearly directed at the general CF viewership. Of which you are one.

Quote:
You only came up with the list of excuses that have been debunked, when challenged about it.
I haven’t made any excuses, nor have I had to, neither has any of my statements been « debunked » feel free to post the « debunking »

Quote:
A household having isolated itself, doesn't come under "take precautions" or "act sensibly". Those 2 things refer to what happens at the gathering, not before it.
I wasn’t referring to the very small % of households that may « have to » self isolate. I clearly state in a post that vulnerable/at risk groups should of course do what they think is necessary.

The original post was aimed at those taken in by fear, and wanting to « cancel Christmas » when there is no need to.

Quote:
There will be households that have fully isolated themselves,
if they have to, then good for them
Quote:
but that restriction wasn't in your original post.
So?
Quote:
That made your original post a "free for all", where any households could get together.
Only in your mind, you need to think a bit more sensibly otherwise you will come across as reckless with that mentality. Stick to friends and family and take sensible precautions.

Maggy 17-12-2020 09:37
Re: Coronavirus
 
Do any of you actually go to bed?

Let's just wait and see what transpires from our government and try to get along without any of this carping shall we? Tis the season of goodwill after all.;)

papa smurf 17-12-2020 09:53
Re: Coronavirus
 
Emmanuel Macron: French president tests positive for Covid

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55347406

The 42-year-old took a test after symptoms appeared and will now isolate for seven days, a statement from the Elysée Palace said.

Mr K 17-12-2020 09:58
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36062541)
Do any of you actually go to bed?

Let's just wait and see what transpires from our government and try to get along without any of this carping shall we? Tis the season of goodwill after all.;)
Nomadking will probably come back with several links disproving that it"s the season of goodwill ;)

denphone 17-12-2020 10:11
Re: Coronavirus
 
Not confirmed by the government yet but the government is considering delaying the start of the next school term in the New Year.

https://www.tes.com/news/exclusive-d...tart-next-term

Quote:
The Department for Education is expected to make an announcement about the potential later start tomorrow, according to sources close to the DfE.

It is understood that the later start would be for secondary schools and that the delay could be as long as a week.

idi banashapan 17-12-2020 10:51
Re: Coronavirus
 
It will be interesting to see if the infection rate / death rate increases after the Christmas relaxation rules go back to the tier system. Could be a week or two after, that any changes will be seen. I fear people forget that a virus is not aware of any festivities - it will carry on regardless of what events are happening.

Hugh 17-12-2020 10:51
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by idi banashapan (Post 36062545)
It will be interesting to see if the infection rate / death rate increases after the Christmas relaxation rules go back to the tier system. Could be a week or two after, that any changes will be seen. I fear people forget that a virus is not aware of any festivities - it will carry on regardless of what events are happening.
That’s what happened in the USA after Thanksgiving

Mr K 17-12-2020 11:59
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36062546)
That’s what happened in the USA after Thanksgiving
And who will be responsible the Govt., or the public?

denphone 17-12-2020 12:01
Re: Coronavirus
 
More English areas go into tier three.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-55345020

Quote:
Matt Hancock confirms that from 00:01 Saturday 19 December - the following areas will be placed into tier three:

Bedfordshire
Buckinghamshire
Berkshire
Peterborough
The whole of Hertfordshire
Surrey, except Waverley
Hastings and Rother
Portsmouth, Gosport and Havant

But Hancock says some areas in tier 3 are moving down to tier 2.

Quote:
They are: Bristol and North Somerset.
And Herefordshire can go down from tier 2 into tier 1.

Maggy 17-12-2020 12:07
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36062549)
More English areas go into tier three.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-55345020




But Hancock says some areas in tier 3 are moving down to tier 2.
:afire::afire::afire:

heero_yuy 17-12-2020 12:11
Re: Coronavirus
 
Looks like we escaped the punishment. :D

We (East and West Sussex) were on the speculative list together with Brighton and Hove which is the real hot spot.

denphone 17-12-2020 12:14
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36062551)
Looks like we escaped the punishment. :D

We (East and West Sussex) were on the speculative list together with Brighton and Hove which is the real hot spot.
My brother who lives in Gosport with the parents suggested Portsmouth, Gosport and Havant in Hampshire were highly likely to go into Tier 3 as the local MP was very pessimistic yesterday..

Ken W 17-12-2020 12:20
Re: Coronavirus
 
Wokingham have now moved from Teir 2 ino Teir 3

Julian 17-12-2020 12:21
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36062552)
My brother who lives in Gosport with the parents suggested Portsmouth, Gosport and Havant in Hampshire were highly likely to go into Tier 3 as the local MP was very pessimistic yesterday..
That'll be because the QA hospital can't cope at the best of times unfortunately. :(

Maggy 17-12-2020 12:24
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36062552)
My brother who lives in Gosport with the parents suggested Portsmouth, Gosport and Havant in Hampshire were highly likely to go into Tier 3 as the local MP was very pessimistic yesterday..
Yep back to take out tea or coffee..in the rain and no shelter anywhere on the seafront. That's 12 eateries in this seaside town including 4 pubs losing money at this time of the year plus the little independent shops that really need to make up for lost custom first time around.

denphone 17-12-2020 12:32
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian (Post 36062554)
That'll be because the QA hospital can't cope at the best of times unfortunately. :(
Yes one of our family went there last year after a accident and it was not too good then.

---------- Post added at 12:32 ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36062555)
Yep back to take out tea or coffee..in the rain and no shelter anywhere on the seafront. That's 12 eateries in this seaside town including 4 pubs losing money at this time of the year plus the little independent shops that really need to make up for lost custom first time around.
My parents when our lot are up there visiting them often go to the local eateries and pubs and one wonders how many of them are going to survive now.

1andrew1 17-12-2020 12:53
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36062543)
Nomadking will probably come back with several links disproving that it"s the season of goodwill ;)
Come Christmas Day itself, CF members will all be in our garden sheds well away from any guests, arguing amongst ourselves about who's doing the correct thing for Christmas. By the time we finish our lengthy discussions, any guests who arrived will have gone home anyway! :D

Hom3r 17-12-2020 13:35
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36062500)
Apparently the vaccine contains a chip so the Govt can control and trace us all....

This virus might have the benefit of bumping off the more stupid who won't have the vaccine. Natural always wins ! ;)

So can the mobile phone in your pocket.


Oh yeah, I hear that the chip and pin in card can be tracked.:D

heero_yuy 17-12-2020 14:14
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36062560)
Oh yeah, I hear that the chip and pin in card can be tracked.:D
For a contactless enabled card if you're in close proximity, certainly technically possible.

Quote:
Quote from The Sun: Two healthcare workers have suffered allergic reactions after receiving Pfizer's coronavirus vaccine.

The medics in Alaska, United States, were treated immediately where they received their jab.

Both appear to have had no history of severe allergic reactions, suggesting they may not have been aware of existing allergies.

Pfizer has said it is "actively working with local health authorities to assess" the situation.
I have several unusual allergies (one to Weigela shrub) so I shan't be in any hurry to be jabbed.

Those that have had the vaccine will no doubt think they're immune, stop taking precautions, get royally sprayed with virus and go down with it.

There's no cure for stupidity.

1andrew1 17-12-2020 15:14
Re: Coronavirus
 
Boris's Britain making the wrong kind of headlines overseas.
Quote:
Waste, negligence and cronyism: Inside Britain’s pandemic spending

In the desperate scramble for protective gear and other equipment, politically connected companies reaped billions.

To shine a light on one of the greatest spending sprees in Britain’s postwar era, The New York Times analyzed a large segment of it, the roughly 1,200 central government contracts that have been made public, together worth nearly $22 billion. Of that, about $11 billion went to companies either run by friends and associates of politicians in the Conservative Party, or with no prior experience or a history of controversy. Meanwhile, smaller firms without political clout got nowhere.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...contracts.html

denphone 17-12-2020 15:24
Re: Coronavirus
 
Rishi Sunak extends the furlough scheme for another month.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55345392

Quote:
Chancellor Rishi Sunak has extended the furlough scheme for one month until the end of April next year.

He said the move would provide "certainty for millions of jobs and businesses".

It means the government will continue to pay up to 80% of the wages of workers who have been furloughed.

Mr Sunak also confirmed he would be extending the government-guaranteed Covid-19 business loan schemes until the end of March.
No surprise there given that its highly likely the tough restrictions will be lasting well into the spring.

Carth 17-12-2020 15:44
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
It means the government will continue to pay up to 80% of the wages of workers who have been furloughed.
. . . and those who are now unemployed due to 'circumstances' get . . not much at all :dozey:

Mr K 17-12-2020 17:33
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36062562)
For a contactless enabled card if you're in close proximity, certainly technically possible.



I have several unusual allergies (one to Weigela shrub) so I shan't be in any hurry to be jabbed.

Those that have had the vaccine will no doubt think they're immune, stop taking precautions, get royally sprayed with virus and go down with it.

There's no cure for stupidity.
You might also be allergic to Covid, most people are...

Hugh 17-12-2020 17:54
Re: Coronavirus
 
Coronavirus: Swedish King Carl XVI Gustaf says coronavirus approach 'has failed'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55347021
Quote:
Sweden's king has said his country "failed" to save lives with its relatively relaxed approach to the coronavirus pandemic.

King Carl XVI Gustaf made the remarks as part of an annual TV review of the year with the royal family.

Sweden, which has never imposed a full lockdown, has seen nearly 350,000 cases and more than 7,800 deaths - a lot more than its Scandinavian neighbours.

Prime Minister Stefan Lofven said he agreed with the king's remarks.

"Of course the fact that so many have died can't be considered as anything other than a failure," Mr Lofven told reporters.

jfman 17-12-2020 18:05
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36062572)
Coronavirus: Swedish King Carl XVI Gustaf says coronavirus approach 'has failed'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55347021
Done and done.

Chris 17-12-2020 18:16
Re: Coronavirus
 
And now, a massage from the Swedish Prime Minister (chopchopchopchopchopchop)

heero_yuy 17-12-2020 18:20
Re: Coronavirus
 
And the Queen's verdict on Boris' government's efforts: "Are there no heads on spikes today?" :D

1andrew1 17-12-2020 19:13
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36062562)
Those that have had the vaccine will no doubt think they're immune, stop taking precautions, get royally sprayed with virus and go down with it.

There's no cure for stupidity.
Are you saying you don't think the vaccine actually works? Its reported success is 52% after dose one and 95% after dose two.
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4826

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36062576)
And the Queen's verdict on Boris' government's efforts: "Are there no heads on spikes today?" :D
:D:D:D
Should be: Do you need any more spikes BoJo,? One is happy to sponsor a few more. :D

Hom3r 17-12-2020 19:38
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36062575)
And now, a massage from the Swedish Prime Minister (chopchopchopchopchopchop)

And now for something completely different.


I wish to register a complaint!!!:D

Chris 17-12-2020 19:40
Re: Coronavirus
 
Bloody vikings!

Mr K 18-12-2020 07:44
Re: Coronavirus
 
Anyone up for tier 4?
https://metro.co.uk/2020/12/18/coron...tmas-13770823/
Quote:
Millions could be living under new ‘tier four’ restrictions after Christmas with ministers currently considering a new crackdown. People in parts of England with higher infection rates may be ordered to ‘stay at home’ as the Government battles to keep coronavirus cases low following the five-day festive relaxation period. Schools could also be closed an extra week and non-essential shops shut amid concerns tier three restrictions are not strong enough to control the virus. A Whitehall official told The Times: ‘There is a case for going further than tier three and it is getting stronger. ‘[That could mean] closure of non-essential retail, stay-at-home orders. That would have to be actively considered in conversation with the local authority.

Maggy 18-12-2020 07:59
Re: Coronavirus
 
I don't know why we didn't just cancel Christmas and do what the Sikhs,Hindus,Muslims and other faiths did this year and just fit their particular religious festivals around lockdown.

heero_yuy 18-12-2020 08:02
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36062578)
Are you saying you don't think the vaccine actually works? Its reported success is 52% after dose one and 95% after dose two.
Short term immunity. Nobody knows how long that immunity lasts yet. And remember this study was during social distancing, mask wearing, limited mixing etc. Once things go back to normal who knows?

You can always debate it with yourself when you grow an extra head. :D

Sephiroth 18-12-2020 08:37
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36062625)
I don't know why we didn't just cancel Christmas and do what the Sikhs,Hindus,Muslims and other faiths did this year and just fit their particular religious festivals around lockdown.
Er, no.

papa smurf 18-12-2020 08:41
Re: Coronavirus
 
Cancel Christmas:shocked:
Mary cross your legs -do not let that baby out :nono:

Sephiroth 18-12-2020 08:44
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36062626)
Short term immunity. Nobody knows how long that immunity lasts yet. And remember this study was during social distancing, mask wearing, limited mixing etc. Once things go back to normal who knows?

You can always debate it with yourself when you grow an extra head. :D



I rarely disagree with Heero, but that last remark is gratuitous and extreme.

The vaccine is a start and the scientists will be measuring the CV incidence as roll-out progresses. In turn, that will define the vaccination strategy going forward until CV is eradicated (and perhaps the next one comes along).

Subject to confirmatory outcomes, it looks like vaccine developmental science has taken a leap forward.

On another matter - repaying our CV loans, I wonder whether the Guvmin are ring-fencing the £25 billion or so we no longer send to the EU annually.

Pierre 18-12-2020 09:10
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36062625)
I don't know why we didn't just cancel Christmas and do what the Sikhs,Hindus,Muslims and other faiths did this year and just fit their particular religious festivals around lockdown.
Because we're not all miserable barstewards.

Carth 18-12-2020 09:34
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36062626)
Short term immunity. Nobody knows how long that immunity lasts yet.
That's news to me, I thought the vaccine just made the symptoms less severe if you caught it?

Happy to be put right, I'm fast losing touch with what's real, imagined, or down right ridiculous :rolleyes:

Hugh 18-12-2020 10:16
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36062630)
[/COLOR]

I rarely disagree with Heero, but that last remark is gratuitous and extreme.

The vaccine is a start and the scientists will be measuring the CV incidence as roll-out progresses. In turn, that will define the vaccination strategy going forward until CV is eradicated (and perhaps the next one comes along).

Subject to confirmatory outcomes, it looks like vaccine developmental science has taken a leap forward.

On another matter - repaying our CV loans, I wonder whether the Guvmin are ring-fencing the £25 billion or so we no longer send to the EU annually.
I know I’m indulging in the flagellation of an equine corpse, but such egregious fabrications need to be highlighted...

The U.K. Government’s own figures

Quote:
In 2019 the UK made an estimated gross contribution (after the rebate) of £14.4 billion. The UK received £5.0 billion of public sector receipts from the EU, so the UK’s net public sector contribution to the EU was an estimated £9.4 billion.
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/

There’s £25 billion outstanding to be paid by 2057, but that’s not annually..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51110096

Hom3r 18-12-2020 11:20
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36062625)
I don't know why we didn't just cancel Christmas and do what the Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and other faiths did this year and just fit their particular religious festivals around lockdown.

My Christmas was cancelled this year on 30th of September at 3:14am when my mother died.


Just my dad and I this year, and I've never cooked a Turkey on my own.

1andrew1 18-12-2020 11:44
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36062630)

..but that last remark is gratuitous and extreme.
Thanks, I just found it bizarre!

Maggy 18-12-2020 12:21
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062631)
Because we're not all miserable barstewards.
Neither were those groups BUT they went with the lockdown rules..Seems in an era of diversity we could have done the same.

Sephiroth 18-12-2020 12:41
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36062646)
Neither were those groups BUT they went with the lockdown rules..Seems in an era of diversity we could have done the same.
Why? Is every vestige of long standing British custom & culture to be sacrificed to the woke agenda?

1andrew1 18-12-2020 13:07
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36062647)
Why? Is every vestige of long standing British custom & culture to be sacrificed to the woke agenda?
Diversity to me is not woke it's capitalism. It's people's different perspectives gleaned from different experiences all competing to provide the best solutions. As oppose to the more top-down Communistic one-size-fits-all mantra.

Sephiroth 18-12-2020 13:30
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36062649)
Diversity to me is not woke it's capitalism. It's people's different perspectives gleaned from different experiences all competing to provide the best solutions. As oppose to the more top-down Communistic one-size-fits-all mantra.
This is a debate all on its own. In the context of this thread, a don't see diversity as applicable to the question of celebrating Christmas in the (nearly) usual way.

And yes, diversity feeds directly into the woke agenda.

Pierre 18-12-2020 13:44
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36062646)
Neither were those groups
I wasn’t referring to those groups.

jfman 18-12-2020 15:14
Re: Coronavirus
 
Should have locked down for longer and closed the schools in November.

denphone 18-12-2020 15:19
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36062660)
Should have locked down for longer and closed the schools in November.
And it would be of no surprise if a third lockdown is announced just after Christmas given the latest figures.

Mad Max 18-12-2020 15:39
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36062647)
Why? Is every vestige of long standing British custom & culture to be sacrificed to the woke agenda?
Well said, sir.

Carth 18-12-2020 15:46
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36062661)
And it would be of no surprise if a third lockdown is announced just after Christmas given the latest figures.
Definitely won't be a surprise Den, all the health 'expert' bods have been harping on about it for a month . . . no point making plans for Easter either :rolleyes:

Pierre 18-12-2020 16:10
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36062660)
Should have locked down for longer and closed the schools in November.
hasn't been a single case of it in our school.

And Lockdown? we haven't been out of it. Tier 3 is Lockdown by any other name.

---------- Post added at 16:10 ---------- Previous post was at 16:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36062664)
Definitely won't be a surprise Den, all the health 'expert' bods have been harping on about it for a month :
Good, given their track record almost guaranteed not to happen then

jonbxx 18-12-2020 16:34
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062669)
hasn't been a single case of it in our school.

And Lockdown? we haven't been out of it. Tier 3 is Lockdown by any other name.

---------- Post added at 16:10 ---------- Previous post was at 16:09 ----------
We just had our end of term newsletter and there were 8 cases in a smallish school of 800 pupils. Interestingly, my kids school (a secondary) was one of the lowest affected in the region. A local primary completely closed and there have been whole years off in other schools. Reading between the lines on the newsletter, they have one big happy hat on about the delayed opening and doing testing!

I think we have forgotten what the lockdown over the summer was like BTW - hardly any shops open, being able to exercise once a day only, etc. Tier 3 is definitely 'lockdown lite'

jfman 18-12-2020 18:23
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062669)
hasn't been a single case of it in our school.

And Lockdown? we haven't been out of it. Tier 3 is Lockdown by any other name.

---------- Post added at 16:10 ---------- Previous post was at 16:09 ----------



Good, given their track record almost guaranteed not to happen then
While some schools haven’t had cases the ONS data now has the highest prevalence in school age children. Communities can’t reduce the figures with such widespread mixing and as you suggest find themselves stuck in Tier 3 forever.

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36062673)
We just had our end of term newsletter and there were 8 cases in a smallish school of 800 pupils. Interestingly, my kids school (a secondary) was one of the lowest affected in the region. A local primary completely closed and there have been whole years off in other schools. Reading between the lines on the newsletter, they have one big happy hat on about the delayed opening and doing testing!

I think we have forgotten what the lockdown over the summer was like BTW - hardly any shops open, being able to exercise once a day only, etc. Tier 3 is definitely 'lockdown lite'
I think Pierre makes a valid point that for many the differences between tier 3 and 4 are negligible. I can go out for a meal (with one other household) venues close early and I can’t drink? Eh I’ll just stay in thanks. I’m not that big on in person non-essential shopping regardless of the pandemic and I still wouldn’t go for a haircut. My £12.99 clippers will serve me until I’m in tier 2 equivalent thanks.

Pierre 18-12-2020 18:45
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36062673)
being able to exercise once a day only,'
That was never a stipulation, you could spend all day o/s if you wanted.

The only tangible difference between lockdown and Tier 3, is that all shops are allowed to open, and schools are open.

Hugh 18-12-2020 19:00
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36062682)
While some schools haven’t had cases the ONS data now has the highest prevalence in school age children. Communities can’t reduce the figures with such widespread mixing and as you suggest find themselves stuck in Tier 3 forever.

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:15 ----------



I think Pierre makes a valid point that for many the differences between tier 3 and 4 are negligible. I can go out for a meal (with one other household) venues close early and I can’t drink? Eh I’ll just stay in thanks. I’m not that big on in person non-essential shopping regardless of the pandemic and I still wouldn’t go for a haircut. My £12.99 clippers will serve me until I’m in tier 2 equivalent thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062686)
That was never a stipulation, you could spend all day o/s if you wanted.

The only tangible difference between lockdown and Tier 3, is that all shops are allowed to open, and schools are open.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ay-from-others

Quote:
1. Staying at home
You should only leave or be away from your home for very limited purposes:

shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible

one form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household

any medical need, including to donate blood, avoid injury or illness, escape risk of harm, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person

travelling for work purposes, but only where you cannot work from home
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news...tier-3-4757018
Quote:
Everything you can do in Tier 3 that you couldn't do in lockdown...

... Get your hair and nails done

Personal care services are allowed to operate in Tier 3, so you can go to the hairdressers and see your beautician.

It means you can get treatments including botox and get a tattoo or a massage.

Do a workout

Gyms have reopened and the direct debits have been taken off hold, so there's no excuse for not getting back to those workouts. Leisure and sports facilities may continue to stay open, but group exercise classes (including fitness and dance) should not go ahead.

You should only exercise in a gym with members from your household.

Watch your child play football

Covid-19 secure organised sport is permitted, so that means grassroots football is back on.

Enjoy sport outside

Outdoor sports, including golf and tennis are allowed to continue in all tiers.

Take your children to their clubs and classes

All indoor covid-19 secure are back on, so that includes dance classes, swimming lessons and children's organised sports including gymnastics.

Go swimming

Leisure centres in Hull and the East Riding have reopened.

Go to a parent and toddler group

Parent and toddler groups – up to a maximum of 15 people can run in Tier 3. Under-fives do not count towards this limit. These cannot take place in private dwellings however.


Meet more people outdoors

In lockdown, we were limited to only meeting one other person from another household outdoors.

Under Tier 3 restrictions, we can now mix with up to six people outdoors. So you could meet five friends, from five different households outdoors – in a public place, but we still can't mix in private gardens.

Get married

Up to 15 people can attend your wedding. Receptions are not permitted.

Paul 18-12-2020 19:25
Re: Coronavirus
 
After 9 months, I still dont personally know of anyone who has had it.
The "closest" I've got so far is a couple of pupils at the school my wife works at.
I obviously dont know either of them myself, I do know they both returned after two weeks.

Pierre 18-12-2020 19:44
Re: Coronavirus
 
Yes Sherlock, does it stipulate how long your daily exercise should be?

If you wanted to walk all day, you could.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36062690)
After 9 months, I still dont personally know of anyone who has had it.
The "closest" I've got so far is a couple of pupils at the school my wife works at.
I obviously dont know either of them myself, I do know they both returned after two weeks.
x2

Mad Max 18-12-2020 19:45
Re: Coronavirus
 
The lockdown in Wales worked well, didn't it. :rolleyes:

1andrew1 18-12-2020 20:39
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36062682)
While some schools haven’t had cases the ONS data now has the highest prevalence in school age children. Communities can’t reduce the figures with such widespread mixing and as you suggest find themselves stuck in Tier 3 forever..
Liverpool City Region (population c900k) and Bristol (c700k) have been successful in dropping down to Tier 2. But how long they will stay their remains to be seen.

jfman 18-12-2020 20:42
Re: Coronavirus
 
It may make me a sad individual, Hugh, but as someone without kids who doesn’t go to the gym or need my nails done there’s nothing on that list that appeals to me at all.

I’m just a bloke that goes to the pub once or twice a week with friends.

jonbxx 18-12-2020 20:42
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36062690)
After 9 months, I still dont personally know of anyone who has had it.
The "closest" I've got so far is a couple of pupils at the school my wife works at.
I obviously dont know either of them myself, I do know they both returned after two weeks.
You’re lucky. Up to 5 for me now. Two in the US and now it’s running through my brothers family.

Still wonder if I had it late March. I got a bit fluey with a heavy chest and lost my sense of taste. My wife and younger daughter lost their taste too.

jfman 18-12-2020 20:44
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36062700)
Liverpool City Region (population c900k) and Bristol (c700k) have been successful in dropping down to Tier 2. But how long they will stay their remains to be seen.
I’m sure there are some examples but in my experience in Scotland I’ve been living in tier 3 or equivalent (and above) for over two and a half months with it looking far more likely that we will return to level 4 in January than ever see level 2.

Hugh 18-12-2020 20:47
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36062690)
After 9 months, I still dont personally know of anyone who has had it.
The "closest" I've got so far is a couple of pupils at the school my wife works at.
I obviously dont know either of them myself, I do know they both returned after two weeks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062693)
Yes Sherlock, does it stipulate how long your daily exercise should be?

If you wanted to walk all day, you could.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------



x2
I am pleased you have been spared the heartache of someone close to you suffering from COVID - we have had two close family members suffer from it (both recovered, but are still sub-optimal health wise), around a dozen friends, or friends of friends, who have had it, and currently my 92 year old mother in law is in a COVID ward.

Mad Max 18-12-2020 20:51
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36062704)
I’m sure there are some examples but in my experience in Scotland I’ve been living in tier 3 or equivalent (and above) for over two and a half months with it looking far more likely that we will return to level 4 in January than ever see level 2.
I'm in Scotland too, mate, we've been in tier 3 for weeks, there's no doubt that house parties are the main cause of transmission, people just ignoring the rules and basically being ar seholes, but imo opinion closing pubs etc is totally wrong, those people have put in a tremendous effort to make their establishments really safe, we are treated like kids with this "no alcohol" ban, the gov't doesn't trust us, so what happens, the pubs get closed and people just get bevvy from supermarkets etc and get their friends into their houses to have a drink, utter madness.

Hugh 18-12-2020 20:55
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36062693)
Yes Sherlock, does it stipulate how long your daily exercise should be?

If you wanted to walk all day, you could.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------



x2
Yes, Moriarty, but only a complete moron or sociopath would do that...

As Michael Gove said...
Quote:
Michael Gove told BBC’s Andrew Marr programme earlier this month that one hour would be considered reasonable. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said: ‘Well, obviously it depends on each individual’s fitness. ‘But I would have thought that for most a walk of up to an hour, or a run of 30 minutes, or a cycle ride between that, depending on their level of fitness, is appropriate.’
https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/15/coron...ning-12558487/

jfman 18-12-2020 21:23
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36062706)
I'm in Scotland too, mate, we've been in tier 3 for weeks, there's no doubt that house parties are the main cause of transmission, people just ignoring the rules and basically being ar seholes, but imo opinion closing pubs etc is totally wrong, those people have put in a tremendous effort to make their establishments really safe, we are treated like kids with this "no alcohol" ban, the gov't doesn't trust us, so what happens, the pubs get closed and people just get bevvy from supermarkets etc and get their friends into their houses to have a drink, utter madness.
While I’m sure that’s an issue I also think the schools have played a role. There’s published data showing that there’s more kids off now than at any point before - even when Scotland was recording 1500 cases a day and the isolation period was 14 days, not 10.

That’s not to say that they should be permanently closed but there’s been missed opportunities - a two week October week was a no brainier. To have kids going in up to 22nd/23rd and put into Christmas bubbles is equally madness.

I suspect the headlines in the press at the end of January will be about bereaved families saying why didn’t the Government do anything. Which in Scotland leaves the opposition parties calling for a public inquiry in the period only weeks before the election. A huge own goal for the SNP.

With Germany, England and others recognising this the question is what magic dust do Scotland sprinkle over their schools to make them “safe”.

Pierre 18-12-2020 21:27
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36062705)
I am pleased you have been spared the heartache of someone close to you suffering from COVID - we have had two close family members suffer from it (both recovered, but are still sub-optimal health wise), around a dozen friends, or friends of friends, who have had it, and currently my 92 year old mother in law is in a COVID ward.
Thank you for your emotional appeal, that failed to address anything and was probably utilised to deflect from the previous posts and exchanges. Bravo.

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36062708)
Yes, Moriarty, but only a complete moron or sociopath would do that...
?? So if I decided to don my walking and hiking gear and set off into the wilderness, adrift from anyone else for several hours, I would be a moron?

Or indeed a “sociopath”?


Hmmmmm, you think that’s air you’re breathing? Take the red pill.

Chris 18-12-2020 21:45
Re: Coronavirus
 
Better idea, let’s all take the chill pill. ;)

Carth 18-12-2020 23:41
Re: Coronavirus
 
Same as Jonbxx

Lots of people think they had it late March/April time, many looking back and wondering about those few days/week feeling lethargic with a tickly cough.

No way to say yay or nay, could just have been a touch of cold/flu . . symptoms are similar for mild cases I guess.

alanbjames 19-12-2020 13:14
Re: Coronavirus
 
Just to let u all know at the age of 69 ive just had covid.

I was on a ventilator for almost a week but all in all i was in Hospital for about 5 weeks and this almost killed me.

Mick 19-12-2020 13:16
Re: Coronavirus
 
BREAKING: Prime Minister Boris Johnson holding an emergency press conference this afternoon at 4PM with an announcement on possibly tougher restrictions regarding concerns of the new variant of Covid-19 and the speed of it spreading in London and south west areas of the UK.

denphone 19-12-2020 13:20
Re: Coronavirus
 
It looks like a 3rd lockdown is coming perhaps sooner then we thought.

joglynne 19-12-2020 13:28
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbjames (Post 36062754)
Just to let u all know at the age of 69 ive just had covid.

I was on a ventilator for almost a week but all in all i was in Hospital for about 5 weeks and this almost killed me.
Sorry to hear you contracted Covid-19 but pleased to hear that you are now out of hospital. I hope that you are recovering and that you manage to have a happy Christmas.

Jo <<<<< large virtual hug >>>>> winging it's way to you as you read this.

Chris 19-12-2020 13:32
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbjames (Post 36062754)
Just to let u all know at the age of 69 ive just had covid.

I was on a ventilator for almost a week but all in all i was in Hospital for about 5 weeks and this almost killed me.
Extremely glad to hear you lived to tell the tale. :tu:

Rest well and try to have a peaceful Christmas.

alanbjames 19-12-2020 13:37
Re: Coronavirus
 
Thanks for all the good wishes.

Mick 19-12-2020 13:49
Re: Coronavirus
 
BREAKING: Christmas relaxation is cancelled for London, South East and East, as areas moved into new Tier 4 with “stay at home” message by law. Christmas bubbles only allowed for Tiers 1 - 3 on Xmas Day only. Source: Sunday Times.

jfman 19-12-2020 14:33
Re: Coronavirus
 
Would be nice for Government announcements to come from Government and not leaks.

Hugh 19-12-2020 15:28
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbjames (Post 36062754)
Just to let u all know at the age of 69 ive just had covid.

I was on a ventilator for almost a week but all in all i was in Hospital for about 5 weeks and this almost killed me.
Really pleased to hear you are getting better - keep safe, and hope you have a nice Christmas

Hom3r 19-12-2020 15:34
Re: Coronavirus
 
If only they enforced the no mask no entry, but they won't as usual the minority gets its way.

alanbjames 19-12-2020 15:36
Re: Coronavirus
 
Thanks for the kind words hugh.

denphone 19-12-2020 16:23
Re: Coronavirus
 
New Tier 4 restrictions in London, the South East and East of England from tomorrow.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-55376873


Quote:
London, the South East and East of England will enter a new tier four level of restrictions from tomorrow morning, the prime minister says.

These will be broadly equivalent to national restrictions which were introduced in England in November, Boris Johnson says.

Residents in those areas must stay at home, with limited exemptions. Non-essential retails and indoors gyms must close.

People should work from home when they can, and should not enter or leave tier four areas. Communal worship may continue.

The restrictions will last for two weeks and will be reviewed on 30 December.
Quote:
"We cannot continue with Christmas as planned," Boris Johnson says.

People should not to travel into a tier four area, though support bubbles remain unaffected as do the exemptions for separated parents and their children.

Across the rest of the country, rules allowing up to three households to meet will now be limited to Christmas Day only.


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