Re: Brexit
 

The only true bit about this comment is (1), because it is correct to say that the majority of his constituents voted to remain. However, as most thinking people appreciate, the electorate was promised that the result of the referendum would be honoured. Clearly, he is an honorable man because he is trying to honour that promise.

As for (2), there are many Brexiteers who do not agree with the pessimistic view that leaving without a deal would be a disaster, because it would not be. Rather, it would give us the opportunity to trade on our own terms, free from EU tariff policies, suffocating bureaucracy and legislation which hampers businesses' ability to function.

And in relation to (3), it is perfectly honorable to Brexit without being closely tied to EU policies and obligations as it is to have a bridging arrangement to smooth the transition.

Both the ERG and Theresa May are trying to help us leave the EU. The true disrupters are the remainers who are trying to prevent the will of the electorate. Shame on them.

---------- Post added at 20:08 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------

They get paid for their expertise. Can you justify your comment that those being paid from outside activity are doing less than those who don't?

As a Redwood constituent, I can tell you that I have raised a number of issues with him and received prompt and helpful responses. Xso I think your perception is completely wrong. Some people have an enormous capacity for work.

Re: Brexit
 

suffocating bureaucracy and legislation which hampers businesses' ability to function.

That sounds more like trading on WTO rules with the largest single market in the world that just happens to be on your doorstep.

---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

There’s no requirement for me to justify comments I didn’t make, although it doesn’t surprise me you are getting into contortions trying to twist my words. :)

Re: Brexit
 

We rely on businessmen to bring money into the country. If you want to tax them until the pips squeak, they will simply move elsewhere. This is something socialists simply don't want to address. It's the politics of jealousy promoted by those without a clue.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

Well, that was the implication as I read it. OK, I'll humour you. What did you really mean to imply, then?

As for WTO rules, they are clearly liberating compared with EU legislation.

Re: Brexit
 

You’re making the false assumption that everyone can just up sticks, move somewhere else and make similar income/profits doing equivalent roles elsewhere. That’s very unlikely to be true for the vast majority of “businessmen”.

You’ve also personalised it, ignoring the big global companies who make huge profits from UK consumers and pay minimal tax here.

It’s not my obligation to explain my posts in greater detail because you fail to understand them.

So liberating very few countries trade on those terms.

Re: Brexit
 

is that why only 1 country in world trade only on them OB

Re: Brexit
 

I found this quote:

Maybe that’s the plan. Reduce wages in the UK in real terms until 17% of us are slaves.

Re: Brexit
 

This is from a few weeks ago, but Henning articulates perfectly why a second vote would not necessarily go the way advocates for it think.

https://www.facebook.com/locbrexit/v...945300?sfns=mo

Re: Brexit
 

I counted 116 people in the audience. 6 had changed their mind, each would represent 0.86%. Obviously we don’t know in which direction, but that’s the fine margin in which the referendum was won and lost.

Re: Brexit
 

Looks like the prediction that a vote for Brexit could let in Corbyn could well come true!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...s-hand-corbyn/

Re: Brexit
 

The giveaway, as always, is antisemitism in the news. A story with more comebacks than Madonna.

Re: Brexit
 

We're still in the EU . . still ruled by the EU . . yet blocked by the EU when it suits :rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47921375

If we had left on March 29th would that 'pollution' bill still have to be paid?

When (if) we eventually leave, will we still be bound by the EU pollution rules, or free to carry on business as usual without this 'extra tax' on steelmaking (and other businesses) ?

Re: Brexit
 

The pollution credits are on temporary hold pending acceptance of the withdrawal agreement. It’s temporary, which is why the company feels able to ask HMG for such a massive loan - they will be able to pay it back in full reasonably quickly.

As part of Brexit, EU law is being written into UK law, so in the short to medium term the pollution credit system will continue. However, if we find the system doesn’t work for us (and if we don’t subsequently sign a Europe-wide pollution treaty at some later date) then we will be free to change or abandon the pollution credit scheme altogether.

Again, just one of the many benefits of Brexit. Once we are no longer treaty bound to accept the entire body of EU law, we have sovereign freedom to decide what is in our national interest and what isn’t.

Re: Brexit
 

Thanks Chris :tu:

Re: Brexit
 

I think Nigel is a skilled orator whom the BBC, in particular, seem to love to give airtime to. Calling his new party the Brexit Party is a clever move. If you want to vote Brexit, put that on your form. If you want to vote Remain, do you vote Labour, Green, Change UK (if a party by then) or Liberal Democrat? And that's without mentioning the SNP or Plaid Cymru!
I suspect Damien's social circles are like most people's and include people who voted leave, remain and abstained

Re: Brexit
 

Wasn't he a big meat eater? ( The temptation to say meet, and I know it's steak )
!
---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 ----------

Where are the punctuation police?

Now I'll get back on topic!

Re: Brexit
 

Shallow, specious? You need to get a perspective here. If they put a blue rosette on a hat stand, it would win Wokingham.

The individual you admire ignores the majority of his constituency's wishes, ignores the instructions of his party and ignores the real and present danger to the country of leaving without a deal.

I am puzzled why you admire him so?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

The same argument could be made for every remainer elected in 2017.

Re: Brexit
 

Yup, I read it and you are (still) wrong. Redwood was voted in because he is a Tory. That's it. The only qualification needed was a blue rosette.

He clearly fails Churchill's three tests:



---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:08 ----------

You have spelt her name wrong. Her name is Anna Soubry. In case you are not sure who I mean, she looks like this:

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2019/04/4.jpg

Re: Brexit
 

I've voted for MPs without worrying about their views on Europe as until now, it's been a non-issue at the elections I've voted in. It will clearly be an issue with MPs like Kate Hoey and John Redwood whose views on this issue are at odds with their constituents. Ditto Remain MPs in leave-voting areas, But an election might be a little way off.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Honoured as I am, I think you may have quoted my post instead of someone else's. ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Joking aside, if you re-visit my post you will see that your comments aren't really relevant to my post.

For example your statements
- "the leave voters didn’t know then what they know now" doesn't make sense as I'm not talking about leavers, I've referenced the voting intentions of constituencies where the MP voted for/against Brexit in a different way to the majority of the constituents.
"You are rationalising without knowing anything about the constituency." I don't doubt your knowledge of the constituency as a resident, canvasser and friend of John Redwood's. However, I do think that sitting MPs in constituencies like his will be severely tested where their views on Brexit differ from that of their constituents if an election occurred soon. I've also made the point that this applies both ways, eg if there is a Remain MP in a Leave constituency.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

I was there on Saturday outside the house of [Mod Edit- derogatory term removed].

The TV studios had packed up and buggered off. The upside they taken that [Mod Edit- derogatory term removed] Steve with them.

There was zero TV coverage and the crowd was relatively behaved.

There was one incident near me when a few [Mod Edit- derogatory term removed] tried to start trouble but the police told them to leave.

There was also some Orangemen who marched up to the Cenotaph. Followed by a load of cops.

Perhaps if there had been trouble the Brexit Biased Corporation might have covered it.

There are now plans to do another protest on the 28th April, same day as the marathon.

Re: Brexit
 

Reminder of the opening post by Mick on the previous Brexit thread

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...ghlight=Brexit

Inappropriate phrases removed - repetition will invoke the infraction system

Re: Brexit
 

In reality I doubt it. The correct colour rosette voters seem unbothered, as the results in David Cameron's constituency attest. A remain voting parliamentary seat now has an ERG MP, elected twice due to the bi-election.

Re: Brexit
 

I'd change your post quickly if I were you ;)

Seriously, the point you make is the one that matters and is where the denial is. The current system, with the entrenched tribal loyalties on both sides delivers people like Redwood who feel at liberty to push their personal, skewed ideology in opposition to the best interests & wishes of their constituency, party and country.

Re: Brexit
 

No. He's carrying out the will of the electorate as voted for in a UK-wide referendum.

Re: Brexit
 

He long should an assumed mandate last? I ask because Dave felt it OK to ask the people 'despite' the last vote in the 70's.

Re: Brexit
 

Not his job, he is not part of the Government. His duties as an MP are clear and distinct ..

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Seph, sometime's one's proximity and friendships can cloud one's judgments. Whatever Redwood's competence as a city investor, good friend and MP, his reputation has been tainted for lying about the public's views on Brexit.
Redwood: "So, you are flogging a dead horse with this agreement and the public is well ahead of you and the public accept, by a majority now that the best option is just to leave and offer them a free trade deal."
Channel 4 "That is not true. That is not true. John Redwood thank you very much. What you've just said is not true but thank you very much for joining us."
https://www.indy100.com/article/brex...murthy-8857691

Re: Brexit
 

One peccadillo does not make him a liar. He was mistaken. From the same interview, the unquestionable truth to the question as to why he did not support May's deal:

"Well, no we couldn't possibly do that because that isn't leaving. The deal is a massively expensive and long delay
.
Our manifesto promised that within two years the government would negotiate a future partnership as well as any withdrawal issues the EU wanted mentioned or leave without a deal.

Now we must keep our promise and I and my colleagues stand fully behind the manifesto.

We hoped our prime minister did and I would urge her tonight to join us in upholding the manifesto, taking us out proudly on April 12 and agreeing on any remaining things that need agreeing so we have a smooth exit.

There is no cliff edge. There is no disaster and we would have lots of money to spend and we need to spend the money urgently to give our economy a boost at a time when the German and French economies are ailing and the Italian economy is in recession.Well, no we couldn't possibly do that because that isn't leaving. The deal is a massively expensive and long delay.

Our manifesto promised that within two years the government would negotiate a future partnership as well as any withdrawal issues the EU wanted mentioned or leave without a deal.

Now we must keep our promise and I and my colleagues stand fully behind the manifesto.

We hoped our prime minister did and I would urge her tonight to join us in upholding the manifesto, taking us out proudly on April 12 and agreeing on any remaining things that need agreeing so we have a smooth exit.

There is no cliff edge. There is no disaster and we would have lots of money to spend and we need to spend the money urgently to give our economy a boost at a time when the German and French economies are ailing and the Italian economy is in recession."

Re: Brexit
 

The body language in the interview to me suggests otherwise. But as he's a friend of yours I accept that you know him better so let's agree to disagree on this. ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Criticising anyone who want to risk the country's future who is driven by a faith-based ideology is not OTT, it is self preservation.

Show me the evidential, fact-based consensus that a No Deal brexit does not risk my children's future and we can have a debate. Until then, he is an idiot betraying his constituency, party and country.

Our elected representatives should make decisions based on reasoned, objective fact-based conclusions and not what they fantasise to be their free market, low tax, capitalist utopia.

Re: Brexit
 

There are a number of problems with this.

First of all, you’re asking him to prove a negative. The assertion is that No Deal Brexit is damaging and it is for those who believe it to make their case.

Second, if you think politics is merely a matter of drawing conclusions based on facts then you’ve been missing the point, and to be honest I’m curious how you would attempt explain the existence of at least three major parties, with three enormously different policy platforms, in the same Commons chamber.

Moral and ideological considerations are always at play in policy formation, as well they should be. There are no facts that exist in isolation and weighing them, and assigning importance to them, is a task for moral beings, not statistical machines.

Re: Brexit
 

Show me factually that staying in will not be to the detriment of my children’s future. You can’t because .....you can’t.

Re: Brexit
 

He stood for election with a mandate to leave the EU. So in your opinion, it's ok to disregard that manifesto ciommitment? Of couse not, that would be the politics of deception.

So of course it was his job.

Re: Brexit
 

He voted against the right for EU citizens to remain. By your rules, this makes him part of the politics of deception.

Re: Brexit
 

You are missing the point here. I am not making an arbitrary definition of the machinery of politics and how decisions are made, strategy formed, etc.

The point is this, and it has always been the point: we are not betting on the 3:30 at Kempton. We are deciding the future of the country and the generations that will inherit it. Some may think that some arm waving conclusions that "we will be fine" suffices. I, and many others, do not.

If you want to jump into the void show, beyond reasonable doubt, why it is not a risk. If you can't, then you have all your work ahead of you. You quite rightly assert that this process is a task for "moral beings" ...

---------- Post added at 08:45 ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 ----------

Can you show me where this manifesto promises to leave with No Deal? Here you go:

2017 Conservative Party Manifesto

TL;DR

Re: Brexit
 

In the opinion of most leavers, it is perfectly possible to leave in an orderly fashion without a deal.

As to an earlier post, you cannot actually prove to sceptics such as your good self that a no-deal Brexit would lead to prosperity for this country because remainers just cannot envisage the many opportunities that are out there for businessmen to take advantage of. The EU is just one part of the world with whom we can do business. We will continue to trade with the EU and it makes sense for both sides to do so. But following Brexit we will have many additional opportunities that we can grasp. We are the fifth biggest economy in the world and as such we are in an excellent position to forge new trading arrangements.

You are failing to factor into your calculations the concern that the EU will drag us down with it if we do not break free of its apron strings now. I really do not understand this view remainers have that the EU is such a good place to be. It is expensive to belong to and its advantages are too few. The problems it faces in the future, particularly with the smaller countries of the EU and their lack of ability to withstand the next global downturn and the increasing weight of legislation and bureaucracy on businesses may be something you are prepared to ignore due to the benefit you get from the holiday freedoms you enjoy, but it is too high a price to pay in my book.

What private organisation would you trust that couldn't even get its financial books agreed by the auditors? The EU is as inefficient as it is debilitating and the sooner we leave, the better.

Re: Brexit
 

Do you have a source for this?

Re: Brexit
 

This may assist you.

https://brexitcentral.com/managed-no...ariffs-quotas/

I know a lot of Brexiteers (as well as remainers, I might add) and all of them take the view that the 'disruption' that has been publicised is all part of project fear and that accommodations could be made in the early days to prevent mutual inconvenience. A few of them think there may be some disruption in the early days, but they only say that because they have been influenced by the scaremongering on the remainer side of the argument.

Re: Brexit
 

I don't know how old your children are but I assume they are literally children..

Freedom of movement allows anyone, with a few exceptions, including the young to live and work in another country, broadening their horizons, learning new skills and increasing their employability. Want some funding? How about the Erasmus+ program?

Re: Brexit
 

BREAKING: The Brexit Party sky rockets and trounces Labour in latest voting intentions in You Gov poll:

European Parliament voting intention:

BREX: 27%
LAB: 22%
CON: 15%
GRN: 10%
LDEM: 9%
UKIP: 7%
CHUK: 6%

via @YouGov, 15 - 16 Apr

Re: Brexit
 

Alas, it doesn't assist your argument. You said "In the opinion of most leavers, it is perfectly possible to leave in an orderly fashion without a deal."
There is nothing in that article to support your statement.

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------

As I've said before, it's a great name for a party, a clear offer to voters and he should never, ever be under estimated. A Sky News article makes the same point in more depth.
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-an...-real-11695821

Re: Brexit
 

Wow, if we lived by that we’d accomplish nothing.

Everyday in life is a risk.

People have looked at Brexit and believe it is worth the risk.

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:38 ----------

That didn’t answer the question, but it’s OK because I know you can’t answer the question, because you’re not a fortune teller.

Re: Brexit
 

As I expected! But this poll will be rubbished by those pesky remainders who deny the vote of the referendum.

If we have to fight the European elections, the current parties in Parliament will regret it.

Re: Brexit
 

Usually assessed, mitigated, and managed risk(s).

When we cross the road, we don’t walk blindly across, assuming everything will be fine.

When we drive or cars, we (should) ensure they are safe, we’re wearing seat belts, and we continually check for upcoming problems (other drivers, people walking out in front of us).

We don’t live life assuming everything will be fine, we balance risks with rewards, usually quantifiable.

Re: Brexit
 

The article was not provided to answer that question. It was to answer the other question you posed in your post.

Re: Brexit
 

There's only one question in my post - something to support the statement that "In the opinion of most leavers, it is perfectly possible to leave in an orderly fashion without a deal."
One person's article even if he is an MEP does not support the "most leavers" statement.

---------- Post added at 14:17 ---------- Previous post was at 14:15 ----------

Wealth-creating Business has looked at Brexit in a dispassionate manner. Most - including Virgin Media - have said the disadvantages far outweigh any advantages.

Re: Brexit
 

Who is rubbishing it? as l for one won't but some others will if it does not suit their own personal political agenda of dismissing polls that they don't like the look of and bigging up the ones that they do like the look of.

Re: Brexit
 

Here’s a graphic from Guido just in case anyone is in any doubt as to the signifcance of today’s poll.

Even if these results wee pushing at the very edge of the margin of error (3 points, plus or minus) the Brexit party would be within 1 point of first place.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1555508262

Of course the margin of error swings both ways and they could be 8 or more points clear. :rofl:

Re: Brexit
 

I'm not sure that language is condusive to sensible debate, old Boy. I'm sure the elections will happen and I'm sure the Brexit Party will do well. It says what it does on the tin.

Re: Brexit
 

But on the balance of probabilities, freedom of movement and programs like Erasmus+ will continue to exist in the EU and those are of benefit for young people

Re: Brexit
 

The problem is, to misquote, not all young people are created equal. I can't see the majority of the UK unemployed youngsters rushing off to work in factories, hotels, fast food outlets or nursing homes in the Eastern European Countries . . . can you?

Re: Brexit
 

I thought the emphasis in your question was relating to my statement that it was perfectly possible to leave in an orderly fashion without a deal.Hence, the link that I posted.

As far as the statement I made about 'most leavers thinking that was possible' is concerned, I guess I was relying on the conversations I have been having with many acquaintences who are leavers, as well as reactions that I have noted from interviews with the public. Nothing scientific, but a fairly large sample of people all in all.

It is quite noticeable when you talk to leavers how positive they are about the opportunities out there for the taking when we leave, whereas most remainers I have noticed are very negative 'cup half empty' types. I guess it is natural for people who only see problems and regard any change as a threat to vote to remain. It makes sense to people who have that mindset.

Re: Brexit
 

Half of the electorate support some form of Brexit or another. I, for one, am shocked that a single issue party in a meaningless election didn’t score higher.

Evidence that support for Brexit is eroding for me.

Re: Brexit
 

Well, since they don’t rush to do it here, it’s unlikely.

Re: Brexit
 

My wrath is reserved for those remainers who are trying to overturn our democratic referendum vote. Not all remainers, by any means.

Re: Brexit
 

You seem to confuse "identifying and assessing impacts of issues" with "very negative".

Re: Brexit
 

Correct, in which bit about Brexit are we doing that?

Re: Brexit
 

Yes, but what they are not doing is balancing their perceived impacts against the opportunities. Added to that, the impacts they perceive are magnified to give a completely false picture.

To hear some of them go on, you'd think that there will be no more trade with the EU and France will be difficult with us at the border, even though they know perfectly well that any deliberate attempt to slow our exports down will be met by reciprocation for the goods they want us to import.

We will co-operate with the EU after we've left and they will co-operate with us. This makes sense to both sides.

Re: Brexit
 

Is Erasmus the engine behind the EU economy?

---------- Post added at 18:24 ---------- Previous post was at 18:22 ----------

It’s the way you tell ‘em.

Re: Brexit
 

It’s been obvious for some time that Labour and the Conservatives won’t deliver Brexit. A single issue party should hoover up the 52% (if they still exist).

Even if, through self preservation, the Conservatives coalesce around something the most Brexity outcome will be May’s deal.

Re: Brexit
 

Not really. There are many Conservative leavers who will vote Conservative rather than for Brexit, and the same can be said for Labour leavers.

The fact that a brand new party can command this level of support this early in its short life is nothing short of amazing.

Strange that you seem to think that support for Brexit is waning when this new party is clearly much more popular than the rest! They are set to be the largest UK party in the EU if Parliament can't get its act together and leave. This poll should be a sobering wake up call for all MPs. Deliver a proper Brexit now, or else.

Re: Brexit
 

With a negative approach the outcome is bound to be negative.

Re: Brexit
 

Are they? You can’t quantify that claim as true. There’s no rational reason why a leave voter would stay with Conservatives/Labour in an election to offices they dint want to exist anyway.

Or else what? In a FPTP general election the Brexit party falls like a stone much like UKIP previously. A general election matters - we could get Corbyn after all, a European one doesn’t.

There’s nothing amazing about this poll. It’s entirely predictable. The question is whether someone else can become an effective vehicle for remain/2nd ref and get the rest of the Con/Lab votes. A brand new party, led by Farage, isn’t really new at all.

Re: Brexit
 

You know very well that Labour and Conservative diehards will never vote for any other party. Do you seriously believe that ALL such voters voted for UKIP last time? Of course they didn't. It'll be the same this time, except that more of these voters will want to demonstrate that they've had enough, and will vote Brexit out of sheer frustration. That does NOT mean that there are no leavers voting Conservative or Labour, though.

The remainder of your post I did find amusing, and entirely predictable! UKIP never got such a good poll as this one.

Re: Brexit
 

These people may exist but in what numbers? Is Brexit more important than the party? Once again you are resorting to relying on conjecture, supposition and your own observations.

None of which change the fact Brexit is under existential threat and 27% of the population getting angry in a European election is far less than 52%.

Re: Brexit
 

It's the fact that the opportunity has been removed. The opportunity to grow, develop and work your way up. Yes, some young will start low and stay there but to be honest, they aren't the ones likely to be mobile. You could say however that old Norman Tebbits' 'get on your bike and find work has become more limited. It's the ones willing to take the risk and reap the rewards that have had that opportunity taken away.

In my twenties, I worked in three countries outside the UK, two of which were thanks to EU freedom of movement. It's a challenge but you get to know about yourself and other cultures and get broader horizons than you get from just living and working in one country. If I am looking at CVs, seeing employment abroad is a big plus for me as I understand the resilience needed to do this. I would be very happy if my kids went abroad to work in a summer job at 18 or something as it makes you a more rounded character.

---------- Post added at 20:52 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

No, it's an engine behind the EU economy for the future but not the sole engine. Training the next generation...

Here are some famous Erasmus graduates - http://www.programmallp.it/lkmw_file.../famous_en.pdf

Re: Brexit
 

So are you saying because of Erasmus, and perhaps other programmes” you can guarantee that staying in the EU will not be to the detriment of my kids and their kids. You can guarantee it? As that is how this particular thread started?

Re: Brexit
 

With the best will in the world remain isn’t going to win the argument by making the case for rich kids to get a jolly abroad while studying. Whether this is the reality or not it’s the perception. Essentially you are trying to then win two arguments, in favour of Erasmus which people who voted leave are less likely to participate in and then remain.

Re: Brexit
 

I don't think any argument for remaining would sway those who want Brexit who post in this thread.

Re: Brexit
 

This is because we heard the arguments in 2016, and made informed choices. I know that’s hard to believe but it is true. The facts, the potential risks and benefits haven’t changed in 3 years, despite the massive parliamentary chimps tea party designed to make us soil ourselves in fear and repent of daring to vote leave.

Re: Brexit
 

But the arguments you made ‘informed choices" on were sub-optimal interpretations of actuality (lies).

“The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.”

We were told we would replicate, or improve, all the Trade Deals the E.U. has

“The free trade agreement we will have to do should be one of the easiest in human history,”

“There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market”

"Post Brexit a UK-German deal would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else"

"Turkey joining the EU in the near future, bringing 77 million Turks exercising their free movement"

The Vote Leave promise of a free trade area "stretching from Iceland to Turkey"

David Davis, said that Britain would negotiate individual trade deals with other EU countries. EU member states cannot negotiate individual trade deals with outside countries and instead do so as a bloc of 28.

Re: Brexit
 

I think you've just summed up the intransigence of some on the leave side quite well - play down the risks as 'potential' but no such uncertainty about the benefits. In 2016 I voted knowing the risks and potential benefits and I'm getting pretty fed up being grouped with the hard liners. I think many people had their own reasons for voting the way they did which are not the same as yours. To use your phrase from above - I know that's hard to believe but it's true.

Re: Brexit
 

Well, that’s true. However, that’s not a reason to be despondent about the situation. Remain needs to convince just 1 in 17 leave voters to switch sides, and they’re going to come from the “soft” side as opposed to the ideologues.

In fact I’m convinced that change has already happened so it’s just down to Parliament who are going a grand job at fudging Brexit for now.

Re: Brexit
 

My big fear is how people will vote for Farage and his ilk, just to stick it to the government. Then we will be stuck having to pay for poor attending MEPs and their pensions.

Odd how Farage calls for an insurance based Health care system and one of his main backers sells insurance. Let alone all the hidden £499 donations the the Brexit Party paid via PayPal which hides the real source of the money.

Re: Brexit
 

Well said :tu: However, this does not fit the narrative so your particular interpretation will be ignored.

We are now getting the new spin on the narrative where "most Leavers want a No Deal". Patently untrue but this will be repeated and repeated. The lesson learned from 2016 is that if you repeat an untruth often enough, it becomes "true" and people get tricked into accepting it as a "fact".

Re: Brexit
 

I'm going to start a party called FREE BEER. It would trounce the BREXIT party ;).

Re: Brexit
 

Inspired by this?

Re: Brexit
 

No, just inspired by beer Andrew :)

You could say that support for Brexit has fallen from 52% to 27%, but I know Mick doesn't like polls ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Not only were such choices based on lies such as those you list above, but the agenda was also supported by faked film clips.

https://www.channel4.com/news/reveal...igrant-footage

Re: Brexit
 

In the interests of balance, here are some of the porkies the remainers are trying to have us believe....

https://brexitcentral.com/remainers-...g-litany-lies/

Re: Brexit
 

Ha, maybe I was doing it wrong with the two Erasmus students I supervised way back when I worked in academia (one from L'Universite Paris-Sud and one from University of Coimbra) I worked them hard! No jolly on my watch...

My first degree had work placements so I didn't go for Erasmus but would have if I did a standard degree. Certainly wasn't a rich kid however

Re: Brexit
 

It would be nice if we had a independent body with no allegiance to either side that could separate the lies from the truth rather then the perpetual lies that both sides seem to practice in with their biased media mouthpieces.

Re: Brexit
 

What worries me is that lies just seem to be accepted now by the public as 'part of the game'.

C4 revealed last night that Banks paid for a faked a video of migrant crossings over the channel. His boat went to Folkestone and back, and the 'migrants' were very British ! Those involved didn't particularly deny or were embrassed by it.

Re: Brexit
 

Re my comment the other day, the intransigence in this debate, on this forum at least, is evidenced to a great extent by people’s determination to read whatever they want/expect to read into any given text.

The natural reading of “potential risks and benefits” is that the qualifying adjective, “potential”, applies to both the abstract nouns, “risks” and “benefits”. I could have written “potential risks and potential benefits” but that would have been needlessly clumsy.

That you read it as only applying to the word that you perceive as attacking your position, and not applying to the word that you perceive as a defence of mine, says more about your mind set than it does anything else.

Re: Brexit
 

This is the problem, and know one knows what will happen, we can only move on from where we are and "take the adventure Aslan sends us".

We can't follow more that one path. All each side can do is state what they think will be the outcome good or bad.

Re: Brexit
 

You're not interested in balance, you're interested in trying to excuse them on the basis the other side were at it to but it doesn't excuse anyone, it makes the whole thing worse and in turn makes something of a mockery of the democracy some people seem so desperate to defend

Re: Brexit
 

And in elections that matter:

Westminster Voting Intention

LAB: 33% (+1)
CON: 23% (-9)
BXP: 14% (+14)

Via @ComRes,
Changes w/ 5-7 Apr.

Lowest CON vote share in a WM VI poll since 1997...

Re: Brexit
 

Oh, so 'leavers lies' should be taken into account, but not 'remainers lies'. Is that your definition of balance?

Re: Brexit
 

Looking at that there is plummeting support for the Conservatives which is not surprising given the omnishambles we have witnessed and rising support for the Brexit party while Labour have lost some support to the Brexit party but not as much as the Conservatives have.

Re: Brexit
 

You’ve linked to an opinion piece that isn’t evidence based.

Re: Brexit
 

Where did I say that, this them and us irrationality is clouding your actual vision now as well as your judgement, what I actually said is none of the liars should get away with it and all should be held to account regardless of whose side they're on, basically for the hard of thinking two wrongs don't make a right

Re: Brexit
 

By whom? as it reminds me of that old English idiom of "you can't have your cake and eat it"

Re: Brexit
 

Old Boy and his “unbiased” Brexit Central link.