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It is capable of working just fine and a lot of bureaucracy is not necessary.

That's not to say we won't get just that, though, unfortunately.

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Exactly, mking British business less competitive. But we know what BoJo thinks of the opinions of business F___ business" is his view.
Appears to me the Conservative Party is no longer the party of business.

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How about an immigration system where you can come here if you have a job. If you do not have a job, you must be wholly self supporting including comprehensive health insurance?

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How quickly would the job disappear after entry into the country ? followed by the person disappearing into the population never to be found.

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We could register all immigrants on proof of either their employment status, education course or comprehensive health insurance or the means to cover health and living costs with appropriate penalties if not done

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As seen on Twitter, this seems to paraphrase the new migration policy, right?

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Linking migration to salary is a stupid idea. It is biased towards London where salaries would be higher so a programmer in London could be deemed essentially whereas a programmer in Leeds would not. It would mean nurses aren't deemed vital for migration.

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The idea is that if companies cannot get the highly skilled people they need in order to function and be competitive, the new policy won't prevent them from recruiting from overseas.

Given the strength of feeling displayed that immigrants were keeping wages low and stealing working class jobs, this policy, together with new training programmes for the indigenous population, is exactly the right thing to do. Our people will be properly trained and the lack of immigrant labour should increase wages.

As long as the good old British have sufficient motivation to get off their backsides and work for their money, and I'm sure they will :erm:the policy should work.

---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:45 ----------

The reason wages and salaries are more expensive in London is the shortage of local labour.

---------- Post added at 16:49 ---------- Previous post was at 16:47 ----------

How will this address the issue that was so often raised at the referendum that immigrants were stealing lower paid jobs and pushing wage levels down?

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The reason wages and salaries are higher in London is houses are dearer , rents are higher and the general cost of living is higher.

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The problem is that the evidence seems to suggest that the drive down of wages is very small and less than a couple of percent for the lowest skilled jobs only. The effect on high skilled workers is to push wages up. As is often the case, it's feelings over evidence that wins.

Of course, you have to ask why immigration levels have been so high where we do control immigration? Also, why have we not made any effort to control immigration of EU migrants using the rules available to us? Is it lack of will, lack of money or do successive governments approve of the levels secretly?

If it's will, we have to question the competence of successive governments. If it's lack of money, the post Brexit arrangements will cost more so that doesn't solve anything. If our governments over the years internally want immigration, we strongly have to ask what benefit this is to the UK and what might we lose without free movement.

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Watch this. This chap knows a lot about trade in Europe and beyond. His analysis is on the future of Agrifoods is chilling:

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"Peace is the founding principle of the EU" - Jason Hunter in his Project Fear speech.

"In truth, Brussels is a democracy-free zone" - Janis Varoufakis https://www.theguardian.com/politics...at-theresa-may

"EU doesn't do democracy" - Seph

The core of the economic argument is that the UK is so deeply integrated with the EU at the practical level that leaving on WTO terms will severely knock us back.

The core of the democratic argument is that the UK should be sovereign and free from the EU's shackles (to the extent they exist - which is where there is debate).

The piggy in the middle is the Irish border and the EU are playing that n order to undemocratically shackle us to the Customs Union and split the UK into two.

In these circumstances, sovereignty trumps economics and we should take the hit if it comes and build from there.

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I see the EASA (European Air Safety Agency) has started preparations for a no deal Brexit by inviting UK operators to start the application process for approval as a third country - https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit

There's an interesting study from the Royal Aeronautical Society on the options for aviation post Brexit - https://www.aerosociety.com/media/67...ter_brexit.pdf

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As the late great Christopher Hitchens once said:

The option never presented to the people of the UK: the Leave option that makes you poorer in all sorts of ways. The final play of the Great Democracy Swindle.

Oh, and let's drop the child-like "Project Fear" rubbish shall we? If he is wrong, say why he is wrong and articulate the reasons that No Deal is not as damaging as he fears.

The constant use of this banal retort is just lazy ..

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"Sovereignty trumps economics" - easy to say if you’re comfortably off. Not so easy if you are one of those negatively affected.

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And quite a lot will be negatively affected..

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There is no dictatorship. Otherwise, surely we would have the Euro and not the Pound. ;)

Thoughtful piece today about Europe.
https://www.ft.com/content/0c870040-...f-ee390057b8c9

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If the guy you mention has said something relevant to the discussion then please quote and cite him by all means. Just mentioning someone's name doesn't progress the debate, it just comes across as lazy.

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Just read Vince Clarke. He tackles all those points exceedingly well.

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You should always give a link to a paywall.

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Plenty of no paywall sites that properly report Varoufakis’ wise words.

---------- Post added at 09:59 ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 ----------

The Grauniad site was the source of my Varoufakis snippet earlier.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...at-theresa-may

There's another take by Varoufakis on democracy at https://www.project-syndicate.org/co...ufakis-2018-09

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What, you mean one of those people who can't get a job at a decent rate of pay because of the immigrants arriving and driving down wages at the lower end?

There are advantages as well as disadvantages to leaving the EU, but more positives than negatives.

The problem is, too many people are concentrating on the negatives, and that includes the economic forecasters.

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Sounds a bit like "Project Fear" to me...

Actually, what research has found is

https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...ive-down-wages So there is an adverse effect on the very low-paid, but only a small one - around 1/30th of 1.8% (according to the figures quoted).

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What you are not relating is that Varoufakis is in favour of remaining closely tied with the EU and is in favour of a Corbyn Government.

From your link:

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It's true that the lowest wage earners see a suppression in wages but the higher wage earners have seen an increase;

However, the very next section says;

So the effects are small at best.

Quote from the Governments own study here - https://assets.publishing.service.go...EEA_report.PDF

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Interesting data point:

https://twitter.com/TheEconomist/sta...68933904867329

Of course the migration numbers have always been dominated by the non-EU net migration. This, unfortunately, did not fit the "EU Migrants are the cause of my GP appointments being delayed, etc." narrative peddled by the Liars.

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/10/4.png

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1.9% drop in wages if you are at the bottom is a big hit. I don’t see how what you have posted in any way negates the point OB was making.

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Where are you getting the 1.9% from? I thought Ian said 1/30th of 1.8%. :confused:

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1/30 of 1.8% or even 1.9% is a very tiny amount.

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Few on this forum are up for taking lessons in democracy from an avowed Corbyn-supporter like Varoufakis.

---------- Post added at 09:09 ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 ----------

It's bizarre isn't it? Some are happy to see the country suffer economically overall by several per cent yet are suddenly concerned by one group suffering a salary decline of 0.06%. Tackle that by raising the income tax threshold by a fraction of a per cent and not be penalising the entire country!

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For someone on a 37.5 hour contract aged over 25 and on the National Living Wage, it works out at £9.78 PER YEAR before tax and national insurance.

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Have they actually lost anything in reality? Or is that down to the income tax threshold and the NLW rate, both of which are government controlled? They are not earning any less, or paying any more tax & NI, so how have they lost £9.78 pa?

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Juncker: Brexit deal could be reached within weeks
Jean-Claude Juncker says an agreement between the UK and the European Union could be reached later this month or in November.

https://news.sky.com/story/juncker-b...weeks-11518837

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At the Cheltenham Book Festival, Robert Peston has been discussing why the BBC was biased in favour of Leave.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...endum-campaign

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Peston acknowledging Project Fear. Well, well, well.

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it not called the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation for nothing Andrew

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The BBC in my perception is/was highly Remain biased.

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your having a laugh aint ya

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Another Remainer/Leaver difference of opinion.

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Ha ha, nice one mate. That's made my weekend. :D

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Correct.

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I think Robert Peston who has criticised Project Fear has somewhat more credibility than these people!

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Its obviously biased to those who don't agree with what it says Andrew.;)

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I am an independent thinker who wants to leave the EU for reasons already given. The BBC appeared to me to be Remain biased.

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Its the typical l don't agree with the BBC on certain subjects so they have to be biased.

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And that is generally what they do but not according to some they are too left wing or too right wing but personally l think they have it just about right.

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That's an impossible approach and the danger of your approach is that you would have to give equal weighting to each side in content and terminology. An example: So ten minutes of interviews with the victims of a terror attack and ten minutes from the terrorists themselves. Except maybe we shouldn't call them terrorists as they want to be called freedom fighters and it would be biased if we did so.

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Crikey are we still going on about the bloody BBC - time to move on I think!!!

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Interesting that you appear to think Robert Preston isn't biased when it comes to Brexit.

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Apart from the chap from Weatherspoons, a few others and the Brexit supporting MPs, there are a limited number to call on to counterbalance the remain opinions. Just having politicians can feel one sided.

Should all the staunch leave voters be dragged onto the BBC to articulate their views, without having the business or political acumen to back up their opinions?

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Of course the BBC are remain biased they would lose future funding when we leave.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=84760

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I've not said that but if you read what he has to say he's pretty thoughtful than most on the subject and beyond. He's certainly more balanced than an organisation that asks for money for Leave.EU on its website whilst denying it favours Brexit! :dunce: He's criticised Project Fear and the claims of the Leavers which many don't.

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I think you would fail in convincing Andrew Neill on that!

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They were biased towards Leave and independent analysis has shown this. It's traditionally been weak in business matters labelling some to call it left wing and its weakness sprung apart in Brexit leading to the nickname Brexit Broadcasting Corporation.
If you get 99 economists stating that Brexit will case a reduction in GDP of 5% then it is not balance to get one economist on who says it will cause a reduction of 30% and one on that says it will cause an uplift of 5%. You have to take the balance of probability not give the floor to every nutter.

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I don't give a toss about Andrew Neill, he's entitled to his own opinions.;)

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£20 million over 6 years, approx. £3.3 million per year, compared to an annual income/revenue of approx. £5 thousand million a year, so they are being influenced by a payment of 0.0666% of their annual income/revenue, or to put it another way, 5 hours worth of their annual income/revenue?

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IEA and YouGov find bias towards Leave at the BBC. The YouGov results are buried deep in statistical analysis but they conclude that Leave voters are more likely to,say “don’t know” as to a media outlet’s bias.

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Links are always appreciated.

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That’s 23,000 free TV licences for the over 75s.

---------- Post added at 14:01 ---------- Previous post was at 14:00 ----------

Difficult on my tablet. Sorry. Easily Googled.

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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...dget-vg7c9zgmh

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So you would rather they did not discuss Brexit at all (or only in a very limited way), when it is the biggest thing the UK has done since joining the EU.

It is far harder to discuss the unknown of Brexit, than the known of remain.

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Probably because a more measured impartial article is possible, compared to live TV interviews.

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I think Kuenssberg does a reasonably impartial job. Nicely infused with picador sticks.

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Jimmy Krankie says she back a 2nd referendum.

Kick this dumb bint out of office as she has ZERO grasp on democracy.

She lost taking the Scots out of the union and she lost in staying in the EU.

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em Scotland voted democratically to stay that who she represents

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We voted as a union of countries not individual countries.

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I know that i was just pointing out as Hom3r said she had had ZERO grasp on democracy when her country voted to stay so she has grasp of democracy

and another big blatant lie about only way for Scotland to guarantee to stay in EU was to vote to stay in the union

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Theresa May talking down an imminent deal.
https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-m...olved-11521261

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Not correct.

The question of the United Kingdom’s membership of the EU was put to the electorate of the United Kingdom. This process was handled in identical fashion by every returning officer in the United Kingdom, who handed the results from their polling districts directly to the Chief Counting Officer appointed to oversee the process.

Totting up the results by region or by nation is statistically interesting and may be politically useful, but should not detract from the fact that Scottish voters were fully aware that they were taking part in a UK event (by virtue of the fact that they opted to remain in the UK two years earlier), and it is only the nationalist lobby in Scotland (plus English remainiacs desperate for any angle they can grab hold of) that persists in attempting to disenfranchise those in Scotland who did vote Leave (me among them) by trying to portray Scotland as having had some sort of block-vote for Remain squashed by nasty England.

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What's that?

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eh no one said Scotland had a block vote Scotland had massive majority for remain FACT uk result was Leave FACT I was pointing out to Hom3r who said she had zero grasp of democracy the fact Scotland voted remain that who she represents

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a no deal is almost certain Andrew not because of the EU because of tories never will agree on anything about Europe the parties infighting will not stop

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Absolute claptrap Dave42, it’s one sided bullshit. Your love for the EU is desperate and pathetic, so much so that you hold no blame against the EU, for their role in the negotiations, the mockery they have recently displayed against Theresa May.

They are absolute pricks, but oh no, you pathetically want to still be in this corrupt and stinking club as if we need them when we certainly do not.

I do not want to be in this corrupt and rotting club, it doesn’t matter one iota which areas of the UNITED KINGDOM, voted to Remain, the total vote count for Leave, exceeded the Remain count by over a million, no small majority thus, the Democratic result was that the U.K. collectively, voted to leave the EU and that is exactly what must occur.

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I thought we were supposed to drop this kind of childish name calling? You have your opinion and Dave has his. His views are not "claptrap", "pathetic" or "bullshit", no more than yours are.

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Dave’s views on this are plain wrong. The language used is irrelevant. Pleading the first is a waste of every one’s time.

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The bit about Scotland is bullshit. I disagree with Dave42 views and yours!!!

And there was nothing childish what I said and how I post, is none of your business so wind your neck in!!!

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Precisely.

It’s become a tedious discussion, with “some” Remainers still trying their hardest to delegitimise the Democratic result. I’m tired of joining the same arguments about the actual vote, how people voted, where they voted and how many people voted. It is irrelevant. The U.K. voted to leave and it’s about time these folk in the Remain camp realise that we are going to be leaving the EU regardless how much kicking and screaming they do.

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Totally agree 100% ... Just a pity we can't ship these crazy remainers off to europe and let them bleat away over there like demented sheep.

They really are scraping the bottom of the barrel now and it's only going to get worse as they start to loose the actual plot at the start of 2019 lol .... Be prepared for many many online meltdowns.I have my popcorn ready :D

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:gpoint::clap::clap::clap:

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Not according to the opening post of the thread. However those rules seem to waived if you are on the 'right' side !

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exactly only hatered of EU is allowed on here

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Stop making baseless and such false accusations. The first post was adhered to for about a fortnight and the thread slipped back in to it’s usual delegitimising the vote and we must stay in EU despite the decision the country took to leave.

I’m no longer going to start a new thread or try to clean this debate up. Far as I’m concerned, I voted to leave, and we are leaving the EU, I owe no justification to anyone how I voted, I’m just very pleased the correct decision was made.

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Exactly nothing. You too, stop making false accusations. :afire:

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Good to know. So we now ignore the First Post rules:

Thanks for the confirmation.

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As the electorate voted to leave, the right side is the Brexit side. No need for the inverted commas.

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Don't you mean "inverted" commas? ;)

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The first post still applies - if members wish to ignore it, they do so at their own risk, which they have already been doing anyway, so your point is moot.

This will be the end of this discussion about the first post rules - the topic is Brexit, not how or what I post!

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";)"

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Notice the thread title has changed as well.

None of us know what sort of arrangements might be agreed with the EU. It is clear that no matter what the Leave supporters may wish, the Remain supporters are not going to go away or stay quiet. Only time will tell.

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Why should they go away as their opinion is just as legitimate as those who voted to leave and after all this is supposed to be a democracy where people can air their views without being putting in the clink for having a opinion.

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Oh I don't disagree.

Just odd how defensive those who still support leaving are, over any sort of discussion from those who would rather stay.

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Yes because they are challenging and trying to overturn democracy and that is insulting to those of us who choose to leave !! Brexit is happening whether they like it or not and they need to accept that and move on.

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I and many other only discussing the way we LEAVE the EU there is nothing wrong with people having concerns about the way we leave.

and what happens if parliament votes against all possible deals not saying it will happen but could

Re: Brexit
 

There was a very amusing letter in yesterday's Torygraph. It said that when May said she would give the UK the Brexit they voted for, she meant that we would be 52% out and 48% in.

Chequers sort of delivers that which supports suggestions that she has always had a Remain agenda and this is the closest she can get without scuppering Brexit altogether.

It would help if the debate moved to comparing the merits and risks as between Chequers and Canada Plus, including the Northern Ireland question.

There is no doubt that an open border is a must and that customs operations can be handled without having border checks. But the way the EU has handled this, and Varadka in particular, leaves just as little doubt that the EU is being mischievous (or nasty) in trying the split the UK and/or keep it all in the Customs Union via a backstop .

So there's much to debate. I for one support what I take to be Mick's position (and that of Varoufakis) that the EU managers don't do democracy. That is a very serious matter and we are right to leave. And will the EU come up with something as other realities become clear? I just hope that they offer Canada Plus with open border but technical customs controls (and random stops inside the borders) and we use the transition period to put all this in place.