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-   -   [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33700839)

Hugh 25-04-2016 07:48
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35834164)
So is the "Disastrous Decision" the supporters of the EU making overconfident claims????
From the link...
Quote:
The scenario

Britain’s economy suffers after Brexit. The negotiations to leave the EU are fraught with difficulty and the trading relationship with Europe is worse than before, without offsetting benefits elsewhere. Britain’s economy once again begins to fall behind the country’s European partners.

The assumptions
After acrimonious negotiations, which drain confidence from the British economy, Britain secures a looser trading relationship with the EU. Free movement of people is curtailed, but the price is weaker access to the EU market for goods and particularly services. Britain finds it difficult to sign beneficial trade deals with other countries, receives less inward foreign direct investment, has fewer immigrants and does not improve the regulation of the economy.

Big Brian 25-04-2016 09:02
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35834127)
I am not talking of a 2008 style crash but slower economic growth as companies stall their investment because of increased costs to one of our biggest markets and less flexible movement of people and services which are important for those companies which operate across Europe. That's not to stay they can't operate like this, of course they can as they do elsewhere, but that their costs increase and it may be more competitive then to put more investment in places like Germany where they'll still have that access.

The response to this is that people still trade with nations that they do have deals with but to suddenly have even minor tariffs is a hit to companies and deal in bulk. To longer to be able to sell services to many nations as if it were your own is a hit.

The boss of Siemens (or former boss) had a good article about it here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1...s-UK-boss.html

I also linked to this FT article a while back but it's worth seeing again as it's relatively measured and fair. It looks at the different scenario and largely concludes there would be an impact from leaving: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d...#axzz46ly9CC4x

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------



The SNP did this as well though. Any time anyone said there would be a cost to Scotland leaving the Union they shouted scaremongering, any time we said you can't have a Currency Union they said it was bulling and any time people dismissed their notion of unicorns and rainbows in a Independent Scotland skeptics were dismissed as Project Fear.

When your campaign is based on the idea that the status-quo is better than the given alternative then all you have is to argue what you would lose. This isn't the most inspiring message but it's what there is, sometimes the choice isn't great and you can't sell it as anything other than the best of an imperfect situation.

Remain are entitled to argue that there would well be a nasty economic hit if we withdraw from the a large single market without much of any idea of what we will replace it with.
You can have a currency union of sorts. Take the Dollar for example. How many other Countries use it linked to the US Economy. I know this doesn't give you full economic autonomy but it does work in some cases. This was not made clear by the Independence Campaign. In Fact, I think they thought all they had to do was hold the referendum and it was won. I was for independence but looking at it in the same way I look at leaving the EU. That would have worked though admittedly it would have been hard at first as will leaving the latter. In the end, I believe the price is well worth paying.

---------- Post added at 09:02 ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35834155)
The "Independant(ish)" Bank of England stated they would not guarantee monitary union if Scotland exited the UK.

No matter what the result of the referendum there will be uncertainty in the money markets and the stock markets, no doubt due to futures buying/selling when no-one knew what the future would be.
Perhaps they should follow the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition. LOL!

Chris 25-04-2016 11:16
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35834226)
You can have a currency union of sorts. Take the Dollar for example. How many other Countries use it linked to the US Economy. I know this doesn't give you full economic autonomy but it does work in some cases. This was not made clear by the Independence Campaign. In Fact, I think they thought all they had to do was hold the referendum and it was won. I was for independence but looking at it in the same way I look at leaving the EU. That would have worked though admittedly it would have been hard at first as will leaving the latter. In the end, I believe the price is well worth paying.

---------- Post added at 09:02 ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 ----------



Perhaps they should follow the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition. LOL!
Not to take this too far off topic, but Dollarisation (which, it now turns out, is what Salmond would have done in the event of Yes), can work in some limited circumstances, if you intend to surrender all but a fig leaf-sized chunk of your independence - it works in Panama, where a very large chunk of that country's national income comes from the canal, and is therefore paid in Dollars anyway. They're never going to run out. It didn't work in Argentina, where they pegged their currency to USD until it became impossible to sustain. The country is still paying the economic cost of that folly.

The currency issue is still the trump card in any argument over Scottish independence. Almost all of Scotland's economic activity outside Scotland is in England - vastly more than with the EU. To create a currency barrier, whether with the Euro or by resurrecting Pound Scots, would be crippling. To use Sterling, whether directly or via a currency peg, would result in independence in name only. I can't believe anyone who truly wishes for Scotland to be a fully independent, self-determining nation state would be stupid enough to believe that's what they would get in currency union with England.

And be in no doubt - if Scotland applies to join the EU independently of the U.K., it will first be compelled to set up its own central bank, and then to adopt the Euro. As a Euro-leaver, I trust you already understand the negative implications of that.

EDIT
I should also ask, rhetorically, why anyone would be stupid enough to entrust the task of nation-building to a gang of amateurs who clearly never gave a moment's thought to the currency issue while writing their so-called "white paper".

Big Brian 25-04-2016 14:04
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35834253)
Not to take this too far off topic, but Dollarisation (which, it now turns out, is what Salmond would have done in the event of Yes), can work in some limited circumstances, if you intend to surrender all but a fig leaf-sized chunk of your independence - it works in Panama, where a very large chunk of that country's national income comes from the canal, and is therefore paid in Dollars anyway. They're never going to run out. It didn't work in Argentina, where they pegged their currency to USD until it became impossible to sustain. The country is still paying the economic cost of that folly.

The currency issue is still the trump card in any argument over Scottish independence. Almost all of Scotland's economic activity outside Scotland is in England - vastly more than with the EU. To create a currency barrier, whether with the Euro or by resurrecting Pound Scots, would be crippling. To use Sterling, whether directly or via a currency peg, would result in independence in name only. I can't believe anyone who truly wishes for Scotland to be a fully independent, self-determining nation state would be stupid enough to believe that's what they would get in currency union with England.

And be in no doubt - if Scotland applies to join the EU independently of the U.K., it will first be compelled to set up its own central bank, and then to adopt the Euro. As a Euro-leaver, I trust you already understand the negative implications of that.

EDIT
I should also ask, rhetorically, why anyone would be stupid enough to entrust the task of nation-building to a gang of amateurs who clearly never gave a moment's thought to the currency issue while writing their so-called "white paper".
I agree 100% the SNP made a right arse o the referendum. It came too early and did not do all they should have to ensure Scotland would be able to survive after independence like solving the currency and central bank issues. However in the case of the EU referendum it's a different kettle of fish as the Bank of England is known and trusted throughout the world. Their credit is good and there is no need to suppose things will be as gloomy as remain claim.

---------- Post added at 12:49 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

So we, the Leave Campaign, are proven right again and there are plans afoot for a European Super State? Is this what we really want? You think you have no Sovereignty and control now, just wait and see how much you'll have when the inevitable happens.

I urge you remainers to think very seriously of the implications of a European Super State and come and join the Leave side.

---------- Post added at 14:04 ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35834213)
From the link...
And you still want a United States of Europe? Remain and that's what you'll get.

Hugh 25-04-2016 17:22
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Erm, I have said previously that I am undecided at this time.

And that was the third of three options,mooing from best case to worst...

Damien 25-04-2016 22:41
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Remain may have Obama but Brexit have..The Dinosaurs! (Really): http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...-a7000496.html

Quote:
Dinosaurs seem to have fled Europe for no apparent reason, according to a major new study.

papa smurf 26-04-2016 07:28
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
David Cameron 'will be REMOVED as PM' whatever result of EU referendum

A TOP Tory has strongly hinted that the pro-Brexit majority in the party will attempt to remove David Cameron as Prime Minister after the EU referendum whatever the result.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-EU-referendum

Hugh 26-04-2016 08:36
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
How surprising - an anti-Europe Tory MP, who was sacked by Cameron, writes an anti-Cameron piece in a pro-Brexit anti-Cameron newspaper...;)

Big Brian 26-04-2016 08:48
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
EU FALLING APART: Former Italy PM warns bloc DISINTEGRATING which could spark WAR

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...122.1460045976

Leading europhile Mario Monti, who led a government of technocrats at the height his country’s debt crisis between 2011 and 2013, bemoaned the number of crises that are currently afflicting the Brussels-based bloc.

Over recent years, EU officials have been scrambling to deal with the eurozone crisis, soaring unemployment, the threat of Islamic State terrorism and the unprecedented influx of migrants into Europe.

Britain could also quit the 28-country bloc on June 23, which EU chiefs fear could spark a ‘domino effect’ of other member states also leaving in the event of a Brexit vote.

Powerful stuff indeed. He's right, of course. The EU is falling apart. They are in such a mess, we would be foolish to vote to remain on the sinking ship. Man the lifeboats! Women and Children first! Row to your Polling Booth and vote LEAVE before the ship sinks!

Gary L 26-04-2016 09:53
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35834479)
David Cameron 'will be REMOVED as PM' whatever result of EU referendum
The whole country will go into party mode that day.

ianch99 26-04-2016 09:55
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35834489)
How surprising - an anti-Europe Tory MP, who was sacked by Cameron, writes an anti-Cameron piece in a pro-Brexit anti-Cameron newspaper...;)
What newspaper isn't anti-Cameron at the moment? The Tory supporters have such short memories ..

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35834504)
The whole country will go into party mode that day.
Really? You actually want Boris or George?

Gary L 26-04-2016 10:17
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35834505)
Really? You actually want Boris or George?
George wouldn't last 5 mins. he can't function properly as it is. his head is too messed up.

Boris would be a laugh for a bit. until he presses all the buttons and we're all dead.

Big Brian 26-04-2016 10:41
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35834505)
What newspaper isn't anti-Cameron at the moment? The Tory supporters have such short memories ..

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------



Really? You actually want Boris or George?
Aye there isn't a great alternative is there? In all honesty, there hasn't been for a long time. When one is in, the Opposition is crap.

Mr K 26-04-2016 11:02
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35834517)
Aye there isn't a great alternative is there? In all honesty, there hasn't been for a long time. When one is in, the Opposition is crap.
I'm afraid Brian the post Brexit world would run by the incompetent right wingers like Boris. The Tories have 4 more years, whatever the result of the referendum, forget the EU, you can forget the NHS and social care or a society any longer if these nutters run the shop.

Big Brian 26-04-2016 12:05
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35834523)
I'm afraid Brian the post Brexit world would run by the incompetent right wingers like Boris. The Tories have 4 more years, whatever the result of the referendum, forget the EU, you can forget the NHS and social care or a society any longer if these nutters run the shop.
Would rather Cameron stay until his term is up. 4 years could see Labour change a lot.

Hugh 26-04-2016 14:27
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35834505)
What newspaper isn't anti-Cameron at the moment? The Tory supporters have such short memories ..

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------



Really? You actually want Boris or George?
Funny - we can still remember winning the last General Election... :D

ianch99 26-04-2016 14:36
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35834567)
Funny - we can still remember winning the last General Election... :D
You may but do the newspaper editors? Are you a Boris or George supporter?

papa smurf 26-04-2016 16:22
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35834569)
You may but do the newspaper editors? Are you a Boris or George supporter?
he will have to ask Dave ;)

---------- Post added at 16:19 ---------- Previous post was at 16:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35834489)
How surprising - an anti-Europe Tory MP, who was sacked by Cameron, writes an anti-Cameron piece in a pro-Brexit anti-Cameron newspaper...;)
i'm pretty sure there is no room left under the rug for you to sweep brexit news into .;)

---------- Post added at 16:22 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35834504)
The whole country will go into party mode that day.
biggest street party the UK has ever seen :cleader::cleader::cleader::cleader::cleader::woot ::woot::woot::beer::beer::beer:

Hugh 26-04-2016 16:23
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Hey, I'm avidly reading all the pro's and con's - no Dyson in use here, buddy.

I was just pointing out that perhaps, just perhaps, Owen had an axe to grind.. ;)

---------- Post added at 16:23 ---------- Previous post was at 16:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35834569)
You may but do the newspaper editors? Are you a Boris or George supporter?
Neither...

Big Brian 27-04-2016 12:19
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel. How low will Remain sink?

Warning that Britain leaving the EU could risk the breakdown of close international collaboration between scientists on potentially life-saving research

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7002586.html

Well here's yet another reason for leaving the EU.

MPs criticise government over European Commission fines

Whitehall departments have been criticised for paying fines of hundreds of millions of pounds to the European Commission because they are not spending EU funds properly. Read More here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36144694

Ramrod 27-04-2016 21:20
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35833981)
And this is what happens when it's imposed on Canada:
Quote:
A report commissioned by the British government reveals that major U.S. corporates have sued the Canadian government for billions of dollars under a clause of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). Despite this, U.S. President Barack Obama told a press conference in Germany this weekend that “none of these [corporate law suits] had happened with the many trade agreements that currently exist”.

Speaking on the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) in a question and answer session alongside Germany Chancellor Angela Merkel on Sunday, President Obama specifically made reference to the Investor-State Dispute Settlement clause of TTIP, which is causing consternation across Europe for fears of U.S. companies suing national governments across Europe.

a report from 2013 reveals that U.S. corporates up until 2013 have sued the Canadian government for up to $2 billion and that the UK “would be more prone to US claims than Canada”.

These suits were brought against the Canadian tax payer for issues such as governmental bans on additives, denial of licences, and the U.S. Postal Service even sued the Canadian postal service for “anti-competitive practices”. In practice, the same kind of suit could be brought against Britain’s National Health Service (NHS), as being government-run makes it an effective monopoly and therefore “anti-competitive”.

pip08456 27-04-2016 21:47
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35834761)
And this is what happens when it's imposed on Canada:
And from 38degrees:- Breaking news: the government’s official report into TTIP found the deal has “lots of risks and no benefit” to the UK. Politicians covered up the report for the last three years, but yesterday it was exposed for the first time.

Full report linked to at the bottom of this page.

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/851

Osem 27-04-2016 22:25
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Politicians telling porkies eh? Americans wanting their cake and eating it? Who'd have thought... :rolleyes:

Seems like the best way to save the NHS is to vote out of the EU and out of TTIP.

Damien 27-04-2016 22:31
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
The forum suddenly become very left-wing all of a sudden.

Osem 28-04-2016 10:36
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35834784)
The forum suddenly become very left-wing all of a sudden.
That depends on what part of the scale you're viewing it from. ;)

Big Brian 28-04-2016 10:40
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35834784)
The forum suddenly become very left-wing all of a sudden.
I have always leaned to the left.

---------- Post added at 10:40 ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 ----------

Brexit Economists Hit Back With Report Showing U.K. Would Thrive

Brexit campaigners sought to seize back the initiative in the referendum battle as eight high-profile economists declared Britain would do better outside the European Union.

More Here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...k-would-thrive

denphone 28-04-2016 10:43
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35834784)
The forum suddenly become very left-wing all of a sudden.
Well there are certainly all sorts on this forum that's for sure.:)

Hugh 28-04-2016 12:02
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35834818)
I have always leaned to the left.

---------- Post added at 10:40 ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 ----------

Brexit Economists Hit Back With Report Showing U.K. Would Thrive

Brexit campaigners sought to seize back the initiative in the referendum battle as eight high-profile economists declared Britain would do better outside the European Union.

More Here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...k-would-thrive
Don't forget to mention that to your tailor, otherwise you can get a splitting headache.... ;)

Ignitionnet 28-04-2016 13:19
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Good God the headlines from the Express MAKE me WANT to KILL someone.

How does anyone with an IQ above that of a headless chicken take a 'news' story seriously after it starts off with such absurb hyperbole, complete with drunken use of capitalisation?

Big Brian 28-04-2016 13:20
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Former UK cabinet minister Owen Paterson has delivered

His basic point is that the EU is not the ‘status quo’ but something that is rapidly moving to destinations that are uncertain and dangerous, particularly for the UK; and that being outside is the safer, more stable option.

His basic point is that the EU is not the ‘status quo’ but something that is rapidly moving to destinations that are uncertain and dangerous, particularly for the UK; and that being outside is the safer, more stable option.

Take the eurozone. It is rapidly becoming one country, says Paterson. In order to deal with the imbalances that the fixed currency has only exacerbated, it needs to centralise decision making on budgets and bailouts. Plans for this are well advanced, eurozone sovereignty is being pooled, members’ discretion over their own budgets is being curbed and the Eurozone will in effect be its own political union by 2025 – just nine years away. That is a very different kind of EU that is being envisaged, and not one that strikes a chord in the UK.

Read More Here: http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/owen-p...-brexit-patter

pip08456 28-04-2016 17:50
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35834784)
The forum suddenly become very left-wing all of a sudden.
I'm neither right nor left. I'm just a realist. I haven't voted in about 40 yrs as there was no option that would have changed anything for me.

I will be voting in the upcoming EU referendum as that is a change I've been looking for, for the last 40yrs or so.

Mr K 28-04-2016 19:13
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35834886)
I'm neither right nor left. I'm just a realist. I haven't voted in about 40 yrs as there was no option that would have changed anything for me.

I will be voting in the upcoming EU referendum as that is a change I've been looking for, for the last 40yrs or so.
Think you're going to be disappointed. Don't stop voting though, I'd be in favour of an uprising but democracy is probably the way to go ;) If turn out is less than 50%, I think there's a case for either side to dismiss the result.

Having said that I am making a point of not voting in the Police Commissioner elections as that is an utter waste of time and money.

Taf 28-04-2016 19:37
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Hmmm... the BBC and other media are being very quiet about the riots in France today.

"The EU defends workers' rights, vote to stay in the EU".

So why are thousands of workers rioting on the streets across the country against legislation which will slash their rights, delay pensions, and soon spread through the EU?

Hugh 28-04-2016 19:41
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I can't find anything on the internet about riots in France today?

Taf 28-04-2016 19:55
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
More than a hundred demonstrators were detained and 24 security officers injured as clashes broke out during protests across France against planned labour law reforms on Thursday, the interior minister said.

Striking workers burned tyres and tens of thousands of protesters marched through the streets in Paris, Rennes, Nantes, Marseille and other cities.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-fra...-idUKKCN0XP1LO

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:50 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35834909)
I can't find anything on the internet about riots in France today?
You'll have to look at non-UK-controlled media ;)

Osem 28-04-2016 20:14
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
https://www.rt.com/news/341246-labor...otests-france/

Comes to something when we have to rely on RT... :erm: ;)

ianch99 28-04-2016 20:32
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35834912)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-fra...-idUKKCN0XP1LO

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:50 ----------



You'll have to look at non-UK-controlled media ;)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36166252

Rioting over objections to:

Quote:
The proposed law, which will be debated in parliament next week, would remove some of the protection workers enjoy against being laid off, in a bid to encourage businesses to hire more people.

Taf 28-04-2016 20:51
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
It sounds quite innocent and transparent, but it's not. And the French workforce knows it, and expects more "reforms" to follow.

Hugh 28-04-2016 21:46
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35834920)
https://www.rt.com/news/341246-labor...otests-france/

Comes to something when we have to rely on RT... :erm: ;)
Thanks

RizzyKing 29-04-2016 01:34
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Something that is good and worth being a part of doesn't need to threaten or scare to keep you wanting in and staying in. Obama and numerous euro prats threatening trade this and trade that have simply stiffened my resolve to vote out of this corrupt monstrosity and for the UK to be free to operate in it's own interests rather then those of the EU. Will there be consequences of us leaving, of course there will but at least we will have the power to deal with those consequences in a beneficial way unlike now. Biggest consequence of us leaving will be French and German citizens wanting to get out as well and that's the real agenda behind all the threats and scare tactics they know damn if we leave it is no longer if the EU collapses but when it happens.

Big Brian 29-04-2016 07:34
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Well that's one less card the Remain card can play. EU Protects Workers' Rights. I don't think so.

VOTE LEAVE and take back our Sovereignty.

jonbxx 29-04-2016 08:48
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35834969)
Well that's one less card the Remain card can play. EU Protects Workers' Rights. I don't think so.

VOTE LEAVE and take back our Sovereignty.
Errr, no. The EU sets a minimum level of workers rights. The French have always enjoyed a higher level of rights than the minimum set out by the EU which includes things like paid holidays, protection from discrimination, parental leave, and health and safety.

The French are protesting the removal of lower working hours than the WTD legislates for and lowering the protection from losing jobs, removing 'jobs for life'.

Mr K 29-04-2016 08:54
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Sovereignty is the last thing to vote on. Our Empire went a long time ago; we're a small country. Vote on jobs, trade and the economy.

techguyone 29-04-2016 09:06
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Sovereignty in this case means having the ability to govern ourselves, within our borders, rather than having a foreign power tell us what we can or can't do, even override our legal process etc. Who wouldn't want the ability to have control of their own affairs - in their own country.

Osem 29-04-2016 09:22
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35834960)
Something that is good and worth being a part of doesn't need to threaten or scare to keep you wanting in and staying in. Obama and numerous euro prats threatening trade this and trade that have simply stiffened my resolve to vote out of this corrupt monstrosity and for the UK to be free to operate in it's own interests rather then those of the EU. Will there be consequences of us leaving, of course there will but at least we will have the power to deal with those consequences in a beneficial way unlike now. Biggest consequence of us leaving will be French and German citizens wanting to get out as well and that's the real agenda behind all the threats and scare tactics they know damn if we leave it is no longer if the EU collapses but when it happens.
Agree totally.

I think the concerted scaremongering has done far more damage to the remain side that the leave side. Thus far I don't think I've heard a single major remain supporter concede that there's even the slightest possible benefit to us getting out. It's really quite laughable but it demonstrates the extent of their self interest. Many of those piling on the scare stories from outside the UK aren't half as interested in our long term wellbeing as they are protecting their own interests or simply trying to avert the inevitable fallout from us leaving. Yes, of course there can be mutually beneficial interests in certain areas but taking the whole, I think our interests are best served getting out. I believe the EU is a dead man walking so whatever fallout there's going to be is inevitable whatever we do. The Eurocrats feel we're rocking the boat and they don't like their empire being threatened, even as it slowly crumbles before their eyes. They'd rather carry on in denial and prefer us to carry on paying for the privilege of buying their exports and providing jobs for millions of migrants from poorer countries which can't offer them a decent way of life. If we stay in I think we'll be treated with even less respect than we already are. I can understand very well why they don't want us to leave but I'm afraid their reasons have little if anything to do with our interests. The EU is doomed whatever we decide, all we can do is decide whether to get off the ship before it sinks or go down with it.

Mr K 29-04-2016 09:31
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35834990)
Sovereignty in this case means having the ability to govern ourselves, within our borders, rather than having a foreign power tell us what we can or can't do, even override our legal process etc. Who wouldn't want the ability to have control of their own affairs - in their own country.
Unfortunately sovereignty in the UKs case, would mean another set of even more right wing incompetent Tories free to run havoc for 4 years. The rich would become very rich, the rest would have their rights and protections swept away and become much poorer. It's a nightmare scenario.

techguyone 29-04-2016 09:56
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Irrelevant against the bigger scheme of the EU, we already know politics runs cyclically, the present govt won't be in power forever.

arcimedes 29-04-2016 09:59
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35834992)
Unfortunately sovereignty in the UKs case, would mean another set of even more right wing incompetent Tories free to run havoc for 4 years. The rich would become very rich, the rest would have their rights and protections swept away and become much poorer. It's a nightmare scenario.
Although not as bad as the left wing incompetents.

Definitely a good reason for remaining in Europe.

Big Brian 29-04-2016 11:23
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35834981)
Errr, no. The EU sets a minimum level of workers rights. The French have always enjoyed a higher level of rights than the minimum set out by the EU which includes things like paid holidays, protection from discrimination, parental leave, and health and safety.

The French are protesting the removal of lower working hours than the WTD legislates for and lowering the protection from losing jobs, removing 'jobs for life'.
When I was working I got paid holidays and that was before the EU.

These things are and were available in the EU. You don't need the EU for them. Can you imagine the uproar if they tried taking them away after a Brexit. Think again.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35834960)
Something that is good and worth being a part of doesn't need to threaten or scare to keep you wanting in and staying in. Obama and numerous euro prats threatening trade this and trade that have simply stiffened my resolve to vote out of this corrupt monstrosity and for the UK to be free to operate in it's own interests rather then those of the EU. Will there be consequences of us leaving, of course there will but at least we will have the power to deal with those consequences in a beneficial way unlike now. Biggest consequence of us leaving will be French and German citizens wanting to get out as well and that's the real agenda behind all the threats and scare tactics they know damn if we leave it is no longer if the EU collapses but when it happens.
If the EU is so good, why use scare tactics? If it's that good we'll all vote to stay, surely?

---------- Post added at 11:20 ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35834986)
Sovereignty is the last thing to vote on. Our Empire went a long time ago; we're a small country. Vote on jobs, trade and the economy.
Indeed. All of which can be achieved outside the EU without the red tape and expense of being in the EU.

---------- Post added at 11:23 ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35834992)
Unfortunately sovereignty in the UKs case, would mean another set of even more right wing incompetent Tories free to run havoc for 4 years. The rich would become very rich, the rest would have their rights and protections swept away and become much poorer. It's a nightmare scenario.
In or out that is going to happen anyway. Who can you put in their place? It's happened in Scotland and will happen in R-UK as well.

nomadking 29-04-2016 11:24
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35834981)
Errr, no. The EU sets a minimum level of workers rights. The French have always enjoyed a higher level of rights than the minimum set out by the EU which includes things like paid holidays, protection from discrimination, parental leave, and health and safety.

The French are protesting the removal of lower working hours than the WTD legislates for and lowering the protection from losing jobs, removing 'jobs for life'.
But each country has to individually pass the laws anyway. There is no reason that the UK can't pass it's own laws even after any exit. If the French had only stuck to the EU minimum, but felt they needed to cut back on that to help unemployment, they wouldn't be able to. Even if 99% of the French had agreed with the cuts. The Germans can't allow other countries in the EU to have more favourable business environments and so use the EU to impose the same level of restrictions as they have.

Big Brian 29-04-2016 11:33
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35835012)
But each country has to individually pass the laws anyway. There is no reason that the UK can't pass it's own laws even after any exit. If the French had only stuck to the EU minimum, but felt they needed to cut back on that to help unemployment, they wouldn't be able to. Even if 99% of the French had agreed with the cuts. The Germans can't allow other countries in the EU to have more favourable business environments and so use the EU to impose the same level of restrictions as they have.
Don't the other EU Countries have a much higher Unemployment rate? As a whole they are much higher than the UK.

---------- Post added at 11:33 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

Vote LEAVE to Retain Human and Workers' Rights.
Vote LEAVE to be able to freely trade with whom we want.
Vote LEAVE to get back and retain control of our immigration.
Vote LEAVE to make our own decisions, laws and legislation.

I said before on here you don't need a trade agreement to trade with countries and someone said that was wrong. OK if that's true, we don't have a trade agreement with China at the moment so why when you go into a shop and buy something it says 'Made In China' on it.

nomadking 29-04-2016 11:37
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35835013)
Don't the other EU Countries have a much higher Unemployment rate? As a whole they are much higher than the UK.
Not sure what you're getting at exactly. The French have set their standards above the EU minimum and therefore have room to cut back on their standards and still meet the EU ones. If they hadn't increased their standards and kept them at the EU minimum, but for some reason still had big unemployment problems there would be no option available to be able to drop below the EU level. Any standards have to be set at a level that can cope with the bad times. You can't increase standards, spending etc simply based on a few years of passing prosperity. Somebody should have told Gordon Brown that.

Big Brian 29-04-2016 13:47
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35835015)
Not sure what you're getting at exactly. The French have set their standards above the EU minimum and therefore have room to cut back on their standards and still meet the EU ones. If they hadn't increased their standards and kept them at the EU minimum, but for some reason still had big unemployment problems there would be no option available to be able to drop below the EU level. Any standards have to be set at a level that can cope with the bad times. You can't increase standards, spending etc simply based on a few years of passing prosperity. Somebody should have told Gordon Brown that.
And if ever a man made an arse of something it was him. However, We have a pretty high standard and could cut back if we had to. But it works. You still don't have to be in the EU to set standards.

Hugh 29-04-2016 14:53
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35835013)
Don't the other EU Countries have a much higher Unemployment rate? As a whole they are much higher than the UK.

---------- Post added at 11:33 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

Vote LEAVE to Retain Human and Workers' Rights.
Vote LEAVE to be able to freely trade with whom we want.
Vote LEAVE to get back and retain control of our immigration.
Vote LEAVE to make our own decisions, laws and legislation.

I said before on here you don't need a trade agreement to trade with countries and someone said that was wrong. OK if that's true, we don't have a trade agreement with China at the moment so why when you go into a shop and buy something it says 'Made In China' on it.
We do have a trade agreement with China - the 1985 EU-China Trade and Cooperation Agreement; since 2007, we (the EU) have been trying to re-negotiate it (these things take time...); At WTO level, the EU and China are part of the revision of the Information Technology Agreement (ITA) and both parties are currently engaged in the plurilateral negotiations on an Environmental Goods Agreement (EGA). Last but not least, both sides have launched negotiations for an EU-China Bilateral Investment Agreement (BIA). And there are some external factors that might have an important impact, such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).

pip08456 29-04-2016 16:09
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35835036)
And there are some external factors that might have an important impact, such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).
Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) is something we don't need nor have any benefit to us.

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/851

There is no EU trade deal with the US yet trade still exisits between UK & US.

Big Brian 29-04-2016 16:23
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35835053)
Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) is something we don't need nor have any benefit to us.

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/851

There is no EU trade deal with the US yet trade still exisits between UK & US.
And there is no reason to assume that will stop should we leave the EU

pip08456 29-04-2016 16:29
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35835055)
And there is no reason to assume that will stop should we leave the EU
Of course not Brian, same as other trade we have and the rest we can negotiate on our own.

The doomsayers say that our trade will fall, perhaps in the short term.

If the UK has products and services that countries want to buy then a deal will be done quickly.

Countries are no different to shoppers on the high street. They know what they want and where to buy it from.

Hugh 29-04-2016 16:31
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35835053)
Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) is something we don't need nor have any benefit to us.

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/851

There is no EU trade deal with the US yet trade still exisits between UK & US.
I was answering the statement about (apparently not having any) trade agreements with China...:dozey:

---------- Post added at 16:31 ---------- Previous post was at 16:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35835058)
Of course not Brian, same as other trade we have and the rest we can negotiate on our own.

The doomsayers say that our trade will fall, perhaps in the short term.

If the UK has products and services that countries want to buy then a deal will be done quickly.

Countries are no different to shoppers on the high street. They know what they want and where to buy it from.
Countries are completely different from shoppers on the high street - shoppers on the high street aren't trying to sell things to the shops and other customers, whilst countries are trying to sell/buy from each other, and undercut each other, and trying to get the best deal for their own services/industries.

pip08456 29-04-2016 16:41
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35835059)
I was answering the statement about (apparently not having any) trade agreements with China...:dozey:


---------- Post added at 16:31 ---------- Previous post was at 16:29 ----------


You were the one who mentioned TTP (incorrectly)

Countries are completely different from shoppers on the high street - shoppers on the high street aren't trying to sell things to the shops and other customers, whilst countries are trying to sell/buy from each other, and undercut each other, and trying to get the best deal for their own services/industries.
Shoppers were possibly the incorrect comparison. Trade between countries is basically the barter system.

I have this you want, you have that I want or that I can pass on to somone else. Let's do a deal

Simplistic explanation? -Yes

papa smurf 29-04-2016 19:38
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Workers would be better off by £40 a week after Brexit, say economists: Group brand the euro an 'unmitigated disaster' and say membership holds back growth

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz47F529CVP
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

jonbxx 29-04-2016 20:08
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
These things are and were available in the EU. You don't need the EU for them. Can you imagine the uproar if they tried taking them away after a Brexit. Think again.


Yes, because the government wouldn't force changes upon a siginificant group of employees without consultation - a move regarded by 57% of the population as unfair...

Big Brian 30-04-2016 08:44
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35835112)


Yes, because the government wouldn't force changes upon a siginificant group of employees without consultation - a move regarded by 57% of the population as unfair...
That tone tells me you are referring to the Doctors' Dispute. Tory Policy has always been to bash the workers and the Unions. You only have to look back in history and the riots and lives that were lost to see that. If they tried forcing things on all workers there would be a revolution.

Hugh 30-04-2016 09:42
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
What lives were lost?

Osem 30-04-2016 10:48
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
1 Attachment(s)
Typical EU trying, just before the referendum, to bribe the younger generation like Damien to vote to stay in the EU. Are there no depths these people won't sink to!!! :mad: :mad:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/20...ut-within.html

































;) :D

Big Brian 30-04-2016 11:00
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35835149)
What lives were lost?
Go back to the Industrial Revolution and see for yourself. Peterloo springs to mind.

---------- Post added at 10:57 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35835155)
Typical EU trying, just before the referendum, to bribe the younger generation like Damien to vote to stay in the EU. Are there no depths these people won't sink to!!! :mad: :mad:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/20...ut-within.html





;) :D
That's been on the cards for a while but you are right. If we leave then they will slap those charges back on so it is a bribe. The depths to which they will sink? Seems there is no limit really. Threatening that cancer research would lose money should we leave was one.

---------- Post added at 10:58 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35835107)
Workers would be better off by £40 a week after Brexit, say economists: Group brand the euro an 'unmitigated disaster' and say membership holds back growth

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz47F529CVP
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Indeed and the country would be better off by about £50 bn. after we pay to trade with the EU. Is there any other country in the world that charge to trade with them?

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35835059)
I was answering the statement about (apparently not having any) trade agreements with China...:dozey:

---------- Post added at 16:31 ---------- Previous post was at 16:29 ----------

Countries are completely different from shoppers on the high street - shoppers on the high street aren't trying to sell things to the shops and other customers, whilst countries are trying to sell/buy from each other, and undercut each other, and trying to get the best deal for their own services/industries.
Not really. You go into a shop to buy something you want.
You trade with a country to do the same.

Just on a bigger scale.

Mr K 30-04-2016 11:19
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
tbh the younger generation should get a bigger say as this is going to affect the most. However its the whinging richer than ever OAPs that turn out to vote on something which isn't going to affect them much. This Govt. has a policy of getting the young off the electoral register, 800k have disappeared thanks to recent registration changes. It may be good for them in a General Election, but they may regret that policy now.

Latest polling is showing a small shift to Brexit.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9677
However I agree with the commentary; its got all the signs of the General Election and Scots referendums. People saying something 'trendy' to pollsters, then changing their minds in the final days when the economic uncertainty of a change hits them. Still expect a comfortable Remain vote, despite the young being disenfranchised.

techguyone 30-04-2016 11:34
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Meh, young people don't care about boring stuff like politics or the news, apart from some of those crazy non binary gendered disabled, multicultural protesting cause we can innit - oh wait where's my 'safe' space' lot.

Don't hold out for anyone much below the age of 25 really giving much of a damn, my own daughter (24) doesn't even read the news and she's a forensic psychology Masters student.

Cameron did the right thing by refusing to allow 16 year olds to vote & should have done the same in the Scottish one too. In this country the voting age is 18 and we shouldn't be making 'special cases' for those occasions where we desperately want to skew the results in a particular side's favour.

There's a big gap between the ages of 25 & OAP's though Mr K.

Oh look ianch99. I disagreed with Mr K about something

Mr K 30-04-2016 11:46
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35835166)

Oh look ianch99. I disagreed with Mr K about something
How dare you not agree with me on something, you're a cad and a rotter! ;)

The young may not be interested in politics, by this is bigger than a General Election. Brexit will irreversibly threaten their future job prospects an prosperity. As opposed to the older generation who already have the wealth.

Big Brian 30-04-2016 12:25
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35835167)
How dare you not agree with me on something, you're a cad and a rotter! ;)

The young may not be interested in politics, by this is bigger than a General Election. Brexit will irreversibly threaten their future job prospects an prosperity. As opposed to the older generation who already have the wealth.
Don't know where you get this older generation having the wealth. The result of the referendum will effect everyone from birth to death no matter what age they are. The younger generation are more likely to vote remain and the older generation leave Take note of the latter. We voted in the last referendum and have had 43 years experience. We know why we voted against in 1975 and as far as we are concerned nothing has changed to make us regret that vote. In fact, things have gone further than we thought they would. It was a Common Market then and that's what the people voted for - they did NOT vote for a Political Organisation hell-bent on building a United States of Europe though some of us who voted NO knew that's where it would head. Never did we dream of any stupid laws or stupid Political Correctness legislation.

The Common Market was for trade only and we were doing that anyway so why change it? What we lost was the trade with Argentina, New Zealand and other Countries outside the trading bloc. Prices shot up rapidly but wages did not and it led to the troubles and strikes in the 70s.

Joining the Common Market also meant Decimalisation - a con of the first degree. Prices on some items went up 140%. Things that cost a penny in old money became a penny in new money. Since then nothing has changed. Prices rise, wages don't.

Vote Leave and take back control of that. Take back control of making our own laws - stupid laws if we want them but they would be ours, not the EU ones. Take back control of Jobs, Training and our economy. Take back control of immigration. Take back control of what's good for the UK, not the EU. Above all take back control of our Sovereignty or we'll end up part of a USE. Some say Sovereignty is not important but without it the EU can and will do what they like to the UK.

Ramrod 30-04-2016 13:14
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcimedes (Post 35834996)
Although not as bad as the left wing incompetents.

Definitely a good reason for remaining in Europe.
Yep, let's let even more workers into the country to drive down wages.....and while we're at it, let's sign up to TTIP so that foreign multinationals can sue us if we interfere with their profits :rolleyes:

Osem 30-04-2016 13:20
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35835184)
Yep, let's let even more workers into the country to drive down wages.....and while we're at it, let's sign up to TTIP so that foreign multinationals can sue us if we interfere with their profits :rolleyes:
:idea: Sounds like a plan to me! :tu:




:rofl:

Hugh 30-04-2016 13:35
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35835156)
Go back to the Industrial Revolution and see for yourself. Peterloo springs to mind.

---------- Post added at 10:57 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------



That's been on the cards for a while but you are right. If we leave then they will slap those charges back on so it is a bribe. The depths to which they will sink? Seems there is no limit really. Threatening that cancer research would lose money should we leave was one.

---------- Post added at 10:58 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------



Indeed and the country would be better off by about £50 bn. after we pay to trade with the EU. Is there any other country in the world that charge to trade with them?

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 ----------



Not really. You go into a shop to buy something you want.
You trade with a country to do the same.

Just on a bigger scale.
You're really grasping at straws if your only example is nearly 200 years ago... :D

So when you go into a shop, do you try to sell them things when you are buying their goods, and then try to cross-discount the stuff you are trying to sell with the stuff you are trying to buy, whilst in competition from other shoppers who are trying to sell the shop their stuff? If not, it's nothing like trading with another country...:erm:

Big Brian 30-04-2016 13:42
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35835192)
You're really grasping at straws if your only example is nearly 200 years ago... :D

So when you go into a shop, do you try to sell them things when you are buying their goods, and then try to cross-discount the stuff you are trying to sell with the stuff you are trying to buy, whilst in competition from other shoppers who are trying to sell the shop their stuff? If not, it's nothing like trading with another country...:erm:
It has been known. However not competing against anyone else.

Hugh 30-04-2016 16:19
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35835194)
It has been known. However not competing against anyone else.
I'd love to see you try it in Argos, Currys, Sainsburys, or John Lewis... :D

Big Brian 01-05-2016 12:53
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
'Out' ahead by 3 points in Britain's EU referendum campaign

In a Poll up to April 12th.

Support for Britain to leave the European Union stands at 45 percent, three points ahead of the "remain" camp, ahead of a referendum on June 23, according to an online opinion poll released on Tuesday by ICM

More: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0X91MQ

---------- Post added at 12:53 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------

There was one on Andrew Marr Today said 46% Out 43% In but can't find that one yet

heero_yuy 01-05-2016 13:09
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
But an exclusive ICM poll for The Sun on Sunday reveals the PM’s biggest EU propaganda blitz failed to derail the Brexit bandwagon.

The majority insist they will still vote to leave despite the most ferocious onslaught of scare stories since the campaign began.


The poll taken after Mr Obama’s visit shows 46 per cent will vote Out, three points ahead of the In vote.
linky

Mr K 01-05-2016 13:52
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
The polls may well be deceptive. As polling day gets close the undecideds and wobbly Brexiters will will go for the risk adverse (remain) option. This is what happened in the Scots Referendum and General elections, where the no change option seemed 'safe'. Although they may whinge, Brits are a bit wet when it comes to change and risk. The bookies are never far wrong on these things, I go by them rather than pollsters. Currently remain is 1/3 on and Brexit 5/2.

Damien 01-05-2016 14:24
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
As I said a few pages back it wouldn't be a surprise if there was a backlash in the headline figures as there was in the Scottish referendum when Osbourne ruled out a currency union. The point of that intervention, and the point of this one, is to further pile onto the uncertainty aspect and certainly in the underlying questions in the most recent polls show that there has been an increase in those who perceive Brexit as an economic risk. Still it's clearly close but Remain will be hoping that on polling day the economic aspect bites.

Big Brian 01-05-2016 18:21
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35835277)
As I said a few pages back it wouldn't be a surprise if there was a backlash in the headline figures as there was in the Scottish referendum when Osbourne ruled out a currency union. The point of that intervention, and the point of this one, is to further pile onto the uncertainty aspect and certainly in the underlying questions in the most recent polls show that there has been an increase in those who perceive Brexit as an economic risk. Still it's clearly close but Remain will be hoping that on polling day the economic aspect bites.
The economy for Remain and Immigration for Leave. One of those will decide who wins. Nothing else really matters I don't think.

papa smurf 02-05-2016 15:08
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Obama's dream for the eu

Documents shed unprecedented light on controversial agreement, which includes provisions to allow US companies to help change European law and weaken consumer protections


They indicate that the US is looking strongly to change regulation in Europe to lessen the protections on the environment, consumer rights and other positions that the EU affords to its citizens.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7009896.html

Taf 02-05-2016 15:13
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35835392)
They indicate that the US is looking strongly to change regulation in Europe to lessen the protections on the environment, consumer rights and other positions that the EU affords to its citizens.
TTIP is hiding behind secret negotiations behind the smokescreen of the referendum in the UK. No so in the rest of the EU though, but media are in the most part ignoring it.

Big Brian 02-05-2016 15:44
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35835392)
Obama's dream for the eu

Documents shed unprecedented light on controversial agreement, which includes provisions to allow US companies to help change European law and weaken consumer protections


They indicate that the US is looking strongly to change regulation in Europe to lessen the protections on the environment, consumer rights and other positions that the EU affords to its citizens.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7009896.html
No wonder he's so keen for us to stay in the EU?

Ramrod 02-05-2016 20:18
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35835392)
Obama's dream for the eu

Documents shed unprecedented light on controversial agreement, which includes provisions to allow US companies to help change European law and weaken consumer protections


They indicate that the US is looking strongly to change regulation in Europe to lessen the protections on the environment, consumer rights and other positions that the EU affords to its citizens.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7009896.html
More here:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...policy-making/

Damien 02-05-2016 21:40
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Good article from the FT on the economic case for Remain: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/417fb6c0-0...#axzz47X6uig4w
Quote:
Any attempt to quantify the cost of Brexit is fraught with uncertainties. Of course, exports would not collapse and the City would not lose its dominance of financial services overnight. But there is a consensus among economists that Brexit would leave the UK significantly poorer in the long run. The Treasury’s central estimate of a 6 per cent hit to GDP by 2030 is credible.

Those who wish Britain to leave the EU may feel this is a price worth paying to regain sovereignty and control of borders. But they should be honest about the choices it will entail and clear-sighted about the risks.

Osem 02-05-2016 21:57
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Those who wish Britain to leave the EU may feel this is a price worth paying to regain sovereignty and control of borders. But they should be honest about the choices it will entail and clear-sighted about the risks.
If we carry on with migration at current levels, the price we're going to have to pay in terms of such things as our way of life is going to be huge and irreversible and for me that outweighs a GDP argument which seems to be based on population growth. It's already the equivalent of 3 cities the size of Cambridge every year.

I keep hearing people telling us that we need more people to pay for our growing elderly population but what none of them ever address is what happens when the migrants themselves grow old. Until they can address that with an iota of credibility their argument is ridiculous.

papa smurf 03-05-2016 07:24
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
EU POWER GRAB: Terrifying Brussels plot to replace OUR police and judges with Euro stooges

BRUSSELS police could end up patrolling Britain’s streets and arresting our citizens under radical proposals put forward by Jean-Claude Juncker’s in-house think tank.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...ligence-agency

Big Brian 03-05-2016 07:54
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35835508)
EU POWER GRAB: Terrifying Brussels plot to replace OUR police and judges with Euro stooges

BRUSSELS police could end up patrolling Britain’s streets and arresting our citizens under radical proposals put forward by Jean-Claude Juncker’s in-house think tank.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...ligence-agency
That's a frightening thought. If there is one reason to vote leave no matter what the cost then this is it.

arcimedes 03-05-2016 07:56
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Seeing as there aren't many police on our streets now this can only be an improvement.

Big Brian 03-05-2016 08:27
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcimedes (Post 35835510)
Seeing as there aren't many police on our streets now this can only be an improvement.
I'm assuming that's a joke? Do you really want foreign Police on our streets with their guns and the tactics we know they use against people? They beat up their locals. Just ask the Spaniards.

I emailed a copy of that article to my wife and she put it on Facebook. Should attract a few more Leave votes.

That is only the tip of the iceberg. They have plans to take more powers to Brussels meaning we have less say in what goes on.

I realise you're an avid remain voter but you should read some of the leave material. I read both and am convinced I'm making the right choice.

arcimedes 03-05-2016 08:50
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Considering the article comes from the "totally unbiased" Express then it must be right!

But everybody to his opinion, I have found that some people can be swayed very easily from one side to the other and back again.

Ignitionnet 03-05-2016 17:23
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35835469)
Good article from the FT on the economic case for Remain: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/417fb6c0-0...#axzz47X6uig4w
How's the GDP figure per capita, though?

6% higher GDP isn't going to benefit us if it relies on 6.5% more people. GDP, while a convenient headline figure, is not directly relevant to our living standards.

Ask Sweden how it's working out for them.

Taf 03-05-2016 17:46
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35835588)
Ask Sweden how it's working out for them.
The Swedes I talk with are gradually coming out of the funk they have suffered for many years. No-one dared talk about immigration, or the effect it is having on their country. But the tipping point has been passed for many, and public discussion and debate is starting to develop.

How long will it take for the fear to rise to the political classes?

And how long for them to do something about it?

Too long and too late is what many fear.

Osem 03-05-2016 18:43
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35835592)
The Swedes I talk with are gradually coming out of the funk they have suffered for many years. No-one dared talk about immigration, or the effect it is having on their country. But the tipping point has been passed for many, and public discussion and debate is starting to develop.

How long will it take for the fear to rise to the political classes?

And how long for them to do something about it?

Too long and too late is what many fear.
That ought to be the EU's motto.

papa smurf 03-05-2016 20:05
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
EU BORDER THREAT: Brussels to fine countries €250,000 for EVERY REFUGEE refused entry

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...-refused-entry

Mr K 03-05-2016 20:41
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
These EU headlines are becoming ever more daft. The Express/Mail I expect made up cobblers; but even the Torygraph is lowering its journalistic standards. No one believes a word of it any longer; which makes a proper judgement of the pro/cons impossible and any rare genuine stories dismissed. We have the worst press in the Western world; there was less propaganda during WW2.

papa smurf 03-05-2016 20:44
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Major leak from Brussels reveals NHS will be ‘KILLED OFF’ if Britain remains in the EU

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666...European-Union


They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled.

Mr K 03-05-2016 20:54
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
All British children to be sold as slaves in Germany under a new EU directive. Also the pope to become head of state, we'll be forced to give Gerry Adams a knighthood, Yorkshire puddings to be made illegal, anybody playing cricket to shot on sight by Eurocops, blah,blah,blah,blah.....

papa smurf 03-05-2016 21:14
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Doubts rise over TTIP as France threatens to block EU-US deal

Doubts about the controversial EU-US trade pact are mounting after the French president threatened to block the deal.

François Hollande said on Tuesday he would reject the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership “at this stage” because France was opposed to unregulated free trade.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...ock-eu-us-deal

techguyone 03-05-2016 21:22
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35835619)
These EU headlines are becoming ever more daft. The Express/Mail I expect made up cobblers; but even the Torygraph is lowering its journalistic standards. No one believes a word of it any longer; which makes a proper judgement of the pro/cons impossible and any rare genuine stories dismissed. We have the worst press in the Western world; there was less propaganda during WW2.
To be honest I would disregard anything you hear now, go on what you know - what you have experienced in your life.

That won't be made up or exaggerated, just cast your mind back over the last x years you can recall and make your decision on those recollections.

Ramrod 03-05-2016 21:28
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35835622)
All British children to be sold as slaves in Germany under a new EU directive. Also the pope to become head of state, we'll be forced to give Gerry Adams a knighthood, Yorkshire puddings to be made illegal, anybody playing cricket to shot on sight by Eurocops, blah,blah,blah,blah.....
Nice set of blinkers you're wearing there......they match your EU issued rose tinted glasses. :D


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