Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

and this is how 'secure' our borders are:

Fake passports readily available and not even always checked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_...44910/36744910

He arrives, claims asylum at the airport and then...

On the face of it, this guy has my sympathies but he could be anyone couldn't he. :shrug:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I had to get rid of a wasp's nest last year because I couldn't identify which ones might sting me......

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Dozens arrested for illegally working at Byron Burger chain

Unsurprisingly the drugged up student brigade have started a hashtag to boycott the company because it helped to expose the scam.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes well they would do. They need a hobby during the long summer months out of uni...

It'd be interesting to find out what actually happens to all these illegals but I'd imagine a good few will somehow or other be allowed to stay here. The truth is that HMG has a much better track record of publicising high profile crackdowns such as this than actually removing those who've been caught having come here to abuse the immigration and asylum system (if you can call it that...).

We should never forget that there are 2 ends of the spectrum of illegal immigration - on the one hand those who come, work illegally and keep their heads down but then there are those who, taking advantage of the very same loopholes, faked documents, lack of checks etc. and are involved in such things as terrorism, murder, drugs, gun running, people trafficking, prostitution, scamming and all manner of other highly dubious activities.

I'd suggest the students forget their silly burger boycott and start showing their disdain for a broken system which creates so much misery and abuse for those at the sharp end of it.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Since they'll have blown the grant on other frippery they'll be living on cans of economy beans so a boycott is worth diddly squat to the burger company.:D

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Pat Condells' latest video...

Europe's Last Chance

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ng-across-the/


Meanwhile in Calais this is happening.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ver-with-tree/

We should never allow people like this into the UK.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37059100

Allowing so many people in so fast has created a whole lot of problems but dealing with those who aren't going to be allowed to stay is going to create a whole lot more IMHO.
I can see a lot of people opting to take extreme measures in order to either prevent the authorities from removing them or indeed punishing their hosts for deciding they didn't qualify for Merkel's generosity after all.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...nd-visa-overs/

Talk about playing the system...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It should be the rule that asylum HAS to be claimed within a reasonable period, like 7 days, of the applicant landing in our country After that no claim will be accepted and the applicant immediatly deported.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I think perhaps there ought to be some concessions (e.g. for the victims of people trafficking) but I'd agree the rules ought to be much tighter. Whilst we continue to effectively reward such lawbreaking, we shouldn't be surprised if people indulge in it. They may argue that they were forced to break the law to get into the UK but that argument ceases as soon as they're here and anyone who decides to carry on doing so ought to have no right to asylum at all.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

90% of illegals have no reason to be here and unless they came off a ship or a plan coming from a danger zone they have no legal case whatsoever and when caught shoukd be immediately returned to their country of origin. We have a lot of people marching across weatern europe to get into the UK and in doing that they are invalidating any asylum claim. It's one more area where we have to toughen up and start being more direct in dealing with them. We should also make it clear in all the countries that are spewing people towards western europe that things have changed and you will be deported if you come here no more acceptance on flimsy evidence or sob story.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Linky

Bliars legacy. Hitting the very class Labour are supposed to champion. :rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The Sun have misreported the findings of the report. Although it did say there may be a pay-rise for lower skilled workers it found that this wouldn't make a difference compared to the projected lower growth and employment prospects.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lo...ages-ckb5mjzlx

In other words there will be an increase in pay from lack of competition from migrants workers but a bigger decrease as a result of a slowing economy.

The Sun has also overstated the report's finding of a link between migration and lower paid workers. You can read the report itself here: http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/...labour-market/

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

There's always going to be an argument for migration to increase GDP but its fatally flawed since we can't sustain such population growth forever any more than we can sustain burning carbon. Whist there are pros and cons to mass migration, what mustn't be overlooked is the 'cost' to our quality of life, social fabric etc. Mass migration has brought with it many costs and it certainly isn't those at the top of the pecking order who've suffered.

I don't see how anyone can seriously argue that mass migration doesn't significantly affect wages in those sectors which bear the brunt of it. Since when did competition for jobs ever increase pay rates?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Although there is an assumption that there will be a "bounce back", the fact remains the article points out there was a drop in the first place as a result of EU immigration.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I don't know, I haven't read the entire report. However they're saying that it does have an effect but it's dwarfed by the impact of the overall performance of the economy. Also, not the report now but my own opinion, some jobs will be facing the squeeze of competition from other countries. If the cost of labor gets too high then those jobs simply go off to Asia as it's no longer viable to produce things here. We also have a minimum wage which in theory should limit a race to the bottom.

Like I said it's just The Sun's reporting of it differs from what they actually said.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

To quote spike Milligan: "Ovulation equals Population equals Pollution"

"Answer is the pill"

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It is basically saying this. Current level is 95, if the EU influx hadn't happened then it would've been 100. Leaving the EU won't automatically mean it will head back all the way to 100. Other factors are in play, but it might end up at 97. One of which that the presence of those already here will limit its recovery. If we stayed in, the 95 would drop FURTHER to 94, 93, ... 90. We can't undo the effect of the previous EU influx, but we can stop it increasing yet further and having a greater detrimental effect. Whichever way you look at it, they are worse off because of the EU, and would be even more worse off if we stayed.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

That's a joke right, he's legacy is far worse than costing people a tenner a month and since when did new labour give a toss about the working class. It's actually a bit of a non story, literally a couple quid a week worse of, big deal.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

:tu:

More people simply equals more problems which have to be dealt with, including the serious environmental ones which we're told are so critical to the future of the planet.

Take a look at what's happening in large parts of London. More and more people being crammed into smaller and smaller spaces; roads/transport can't cope with the level of demand; local authorities overwhelmed; schools full; A&Es full; nowhere to park; every little space being built upon; multiple occupancy slums etc etc. At what point is the permanent damage to London and all the direct/indirect costs taken into account in the equation by those for whom GDP is the Holy Grail? It's not like what's happening can be reversed if we decide we don't like it after all. How far along the journey to London becoming Lagos are we going to go before someone says STOP?! The lack of foresight evident with regard to the ramifications of population growth is incredible.

It seems to me that if populations, especially from poorer countries, are allowed to move freely in such vast numbers, that's exactly what happens and it does so far more rapidly than the ability of the receiving nation(s) to cope with it all in practical terms as well as socially and economically.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

There are too many communities not getting the services they need for us to keep taking in the numbers we have for the last twenty years. We need a period of no immigration in order to rebalance our society as there have been too many people coming in and it has done a great deal of damage to our society not least the number of people who are not as tolerant as they were. Our good intentions and welcoming nature have been abused by a large group who have come here creating problems in many areas but try and discuss it or question the wisdom of it and your automatically against immigrants and off to the right politically.

I want the UK to always be a place where people in danger can find sanctuary and get the help they need to rebuild their lives but that doesn't apply to the majority that have come in the last couple of decades and doesnt apply to the calais mob currently trying to get in. We have been a bit of a soft touch and have been too quick to let certain people in when we didn't have the resources to ensure they were not a threat and problems are starting to come to the surface and need to be addressed not just dismissed or brushed off as has been the norm lately.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

That isn't what it's saying.

http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/...labour-market/

Depending on the performance of the economy it may have got/worse better if we Remained in the EU and it might get better/worse now.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...herts-37130065

I wonder how many more like him they are - murders and criminals given new lives on the basis of cynical lies all too easily told and a flawed asylum system?

Nice to see the Daily Mail doing the police's work for them but I'll believe he's finally been despatched when I see it.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

My ex-neighbour, a Czech Roma, has now added yet another child to his brood, and came to see me as he was having problems getting various forms (mostly benefit claim forms) completed for a yet another large group of Czech/Slovakian/Hungarian Roma that appeared on his doorstep demanding help.

I told him to sort it himself as he has been here long enough to have learned how to read and write English.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It's not happening, you're imagining it... :rolleyes:

It's not as if these countries are keen to get shot of their gypsy minority is it.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.irinnews.org/news/2016/08...-asylum-system

Who'd have thought an EU policy would be an abject failure... :rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

IMO "moderate" Roma were in the first wave of (legal) immigrants when the G8 countries were allowed to access the EU. After that initial group the chancers started to flood in. They were always here in some numbers of course. All over Europe. Crime stats from many western EU countries show their presence by the levels of petty crimes they were involved in.

Most of the "moderates" I personally know have settled and tried in some part to integrate. But not totally. Their poor schooling back home shows up in those who have no access to education in the UK. So the parents lack English skills, whilst their younger children seem to doing well. I know a few that arrived as teenagers that are in and out of prison for petty crimes as well as drugs offences. But many of the teenagers that grew up here are attending college, with 3 I know in Uni (but living at home).

A few families are very afraid of the newer arrivals. Crime appears to be their only method of this group of providing for their families (who arrived with them or remain back home) until they qualify for benefits. And if they fall on bad times, they descend upon those earning a legal income like locusts. And not just appearing and eating and drinking until sated, they also demand cash, or items they can sell for cash.

Refuse, and the violence starts. Very bad violence. I know a few who have been hospitalised. I took one to hospital myself.

They were quite well spread across this city, but have slowly gravitated together, often sniffing-out low rent areas. But another group has done the same. Kurds of all nations. And they don't get on at all. At any age.

If May uses BREXIT to allow many to stay, we will have yet another powder keg under us just waiting to be ignited.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The saddest thing of all is that this sort of thing was as inevitable as it was predictable and ought to have been given far more consideration (if indeed any was ever given) before the floodgates were opened to one and all. Very many of those poorer countries with a sizeable Roma 'problem' couldn't wait to join the club, collect their Euro-payouts and get rid of their Roma problem at the same time. They even encouraged Roma to leave for pastures new. Sadly those who made the decisions were and still are totally out of touch, but then they've always made sure they and theirs are very nicely insulated against the fallout. Meanwhile, poor, desperate and disadvantaged people are being set against eachother and all manner of foreign criminals and undesirables have seized the opportunity to ply their trade in a country which offers relatively easy pickings in all sorts of ways.

Make no mistake, the vast majority will be allowed to stay because there isn't the political will to do something about it and I fully agree that big trouble lies ahead both here and in countries like Italy, Germany, France, Greece etc. which are facing even worse problems. The professional do-gooders who insist on conflating refugees and migrants know full well the vast majority are economic will never be sent away but to admit that would fatally undermine their position so they continue with the deception. Unlike the situation during the Balkans conflict, we now at least have access to some numbers and they don't make very comforting reading. Really, anyone would think that our glorious leaders actually wanted to create chaos and unrest...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Labour were quite deliberate in allowing in all and sundry from 2000-2006 as part of some ridiculous social experiment and all it's done is sped us to a volatile situation which is ongoing. This country is like a pressure cooker at the minute pressure is building we can only hope the right people with the right policies are the one's that release that pressure. Given the track record over the last few years I'm not overly confident it seems easier to put your head in the sand and not live where the problems are showing and alls good.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes they certainly were - a fact many a rose tinted dyed in the wool working class chap whose wages have been eroded still seems to overlook for some odd reason.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Linky

:D

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

This is it Taf. It isn't just the immigrants that come here, they have children that attract benefits, that need educating, that need health and maternity care etc etc.

I'm sure they know exactly what they are doing.

Also, how is it that when people in the UK get a foreign partner, that they usually come to live here?

Even if we discount the sham marriages, mail order Thai brides etc and accept that some relationships are genuinely based on love- why can't the UK partner move to their country if they love them so much?

I'm so pleased that it's become socially acceptable to be able to talk about the problems of immigration without the PC brigade being able to silence people by the inappropriate use of the R word.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

You know what happens if a Muslim sees a pig, or a pig head, or pork?

Nothing.

They don't burst into flames. They don't scream and hide their eyes. They don't go to hell when they die. Nothing happens -- well, other revulsion, you know, like regular people get when they come upon a rotting animal's head on a fence.

You know what happens if a Muslim gets shot by a bullet dipped in pig's blood?

Nothing (other than the usual side effects of being shot).

You know what happens if a Muslim accidentally eats pork?

Nothing.

According to the Quran, if a Muslim has accidental contact with unclean animals, it's ... nothing. They don't go to hell. If they're aware of it, they ask their deity for forgiveness and try to be more careful in the future.

A thought - if people are this ignorant of the Islamic faith and especially if they got this easy part wrong, well, you know, maybe, just maybe, they're wrong about other parts of it too... ;)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Don't tell us, maybe tell those people who work in supermarkets and refuse to handle those kind of items in the course of their jobs as checkout clerks, despite the fact the said items are wrapped said clerk isn't consuming said item.
Don't pee on my shoes and tell me it's raining.

And for God's sake stop being such an apologist.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Pointing out a truth is not being an apologist.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

True, but I don't see why people should be expected to learn about an alien faith to this country or about other cultures if they don't want to.

It's up to the immigrants to fit in.

As for the practice of advertising jobs where they are required to speak Urdu, Hindi,
Gujarati etc :mad:

Must admit I've not seen any jobs with a requirement to speak Polish.

When I worked for a Local Authority, they spent money on replacing every single reception sign with "welcome" in every conceivable language.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Seeing as Islamic terrorist groups, of which there are many, are routinely dismissed as misinterpreting the Koran and they are Muslims, how can, and why should, non-Muslims be expected to get it right? If the Imams are accused of getting wrong, again how can, and why should, non-Muslims be expected to get it right.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Indeed.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

But because the majority don't blow themselves up and burn flags and the like we're meant to take their sensitivities into account, learn about their faith and culture so we better understand the majority and not judge them on the basis of the minority. Meanwhile we have to accept that our country is racist because we're told so often by so many that it is and feel bad about the past and bend over backwards to accomadate anyone or any religion that comes here. In fairness we have only been doing it for thirty odd years rome wasn't built in a day maybe we should revisit the subject in another twenty years as I'm sure by then meaningful integration will have started and they will see themselves as british citizens rather then muslim tolerating a society many of the majority look down their nose at.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

You will be surprised how many DO move abroad, 1.8 million emigrated last year, you don't see it because obviously you are here so you only see what you read and live around. Its easier to base here because a) foreign people tend to learn English as a second language as standard b) English people tend not to bother to learn another language or struggle (me included first part early in my life and now live to regret it later). Believe me I would jump (and still plan to) move to Austria because that's where I see my future (although no idea how that will happen because of you know what but we shall see) As for integration believe or not the vast majority do try and integrate, try and become British culture, eat fish and chips on Friday, get a cricket annual season membership, drink real ale, get plastered on a Friday, pee down an alleyway, try not to blow themselves up etc

Funny enough when I go abroad, you will always spot a brit, a majority of them don't integrate either, speak English everywhere, open up ex pat shops selling marmite, Tetley tea, walkers crisp etc, and yet we have an issue with a Polish delicatessen, go figure

Well, the nice Polish family moved out opposite me (who clean outside the flat and took down the rubbish and spoke very nicely with their well-behaved children), in their place, "single mother" courtesy of DSS with live in boyfriend ("he doesn't live here all the time ya know", no job, smoking and leaving cigarette stubs in my plant pot outside). I still await the hammer I lent her last week ("it be only a minute I give it back to ya"). You'll forgive me I f I chose the former "foreign" neighbours (who now bought their own home so good luck to them) to my own indigenous "something for nothing" lot I got now. As I write this, the rubbish is pilling up outside, probably waiting for “someone else” to sort out for her

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Maybe you only spot the Brits who haven't integrated? People have been taking their cuisine and customs with them ever since civilisation began, it's one of the reasons places like London are what they are. You'll do the same (to some extent or another) if/when you finally get to Austria - it might be HP sauce, it might be British newspapers, it might be watching your national football team and daring to wear their flag on match day. God forbid any Austrian neighbours get upset about it...

You were lucky and had nice Polish neighbours, now you have an inadequate home bred living opposite but I'm not sure what that proves because it's patently obvious the the problem isn't the proportion of lazy scroungers in any given national group, it's the fact that we have no means to control how many people choose to come here regardless of what they have to offer and why they are coming. I don't think it's wrong to want to have that control in just the same way that you'd clearly love to be able to choose your neighbours eh?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I agree that there's good and bad in every walk of life. I've met some obnoxious and some extremely pleasant Polish/Asian people.

I sometimes go out socialising with some Indian and Irish friends and even they say that immigration is now out of hand.

I must admit to a little wry smile to myself though when they say that these new immigrants are taking their jobs (usually driving taxis) and driving down wages :D

Last time I was in Prague I got talking to a local, he explained that most of the bar staff, waiters etc were actually immigrants. He said that it's because local people aren't prepared to do these low paid jobs and prefer to claim benefits.

Sounds familiar to the UK doesn't it. I really don't know the answer, it's not because benefits are too high, but that wages are too low. Also, may benefits are linked to your basic needs as a family, whereas wages don't take account of this.

However, some small businesses would not survive if they had to increase their rate of pay; on the other hand some companies who could afford to pay more do not and get the taxpayer to subsidise their wages bill.

Traditionally Governments have resolved this by topping up low wages with Family Income Supplement, Family Credit and now Tax Credits.

Ironically, it was the Tories that introduced this measure and it's the Tories that are now effectively phasing it out by cutting it, restricting it to two children and forcing employers to increase the minimum wage.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Oh well, the UK population only grew by another 327,000 in the year to March so I suppose we should be delighted.

Poland has now become the most common non UK country of birth for people in the UK and there's been record levels of immigration from Romania and Bulgaria. What a surprise...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37183733

But it's all OK because GDP will be higher... :rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

A little deeper diving into the stats also states that 147,000 were NON EU, so explain why the government fails to do anything regarding this near 50% which it has complete control over

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The GDP obsession answers that question IMHO. Successive governments seem to have little long term vision. Energy policy and transport would be other examples.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Does the NHS charge these non british citizens ? If they do then as long as all costs are covered and a small profit added then good business i suppose but if they don't and i think that's likely the case why the hell are we not charging.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

And what do we do if they don't/can't pay? Leave them to die on the street? Brexit is going to increase migration as people rush to Little England before the drawbridge comes up. Not that that will stop anyone that wants to come anyway.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

They are supposed to, but in the vast majority of cases they don't.

Pressure on time, a lack of resources and the ethos of putting people first seem to be the most common excuses given.

Cameron did mention that he was going to tackle this (one of the few measures of his that I supported), but I've not come across anything to suggest that anything was actually done about this abuse.

In some cases, it's cheaper to travel to the UK than pay the cost in their own country.

Wonder what would happen if we turned up in a foreign country expecting free treatment?

Life & death emergencies and stabilisation are exempt from a requirement to pay, even if they are able to.

In Thai hospitals there are signs that say all foreigners will be charged the full cost of treatment plus a surcharge!!

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I think we are forgetting that the vast vast majority of these people will be coming here to work and legally working so will be paying for these facilities via NI contributions like EVERYONE ELSE. You will also find that the 99% of them will thankfully never ever need to use them either.

We will also need to move on from the motion that the NHS is the best thing in the world. It's great but it ain't the best and that includes a few countries in Europe

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Those coming from the EU (or are here legally from elsewhere) are entitled to the same healthcare as us regardless of any contribution.

In turn, we are able to use any of their health facilities just as a local can in any other EU country.

The problem is that in the EU countries I've visited, their healthcare system is inadequate and I've had to pay for private insurance.

Out of interest, which countries have a better system than ours, would be a lot cheaper* for me to go there!

* Because of existing illness/disabilities my holiday insurance is Sky high :(

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The Netherlands, the Nordic countries, and French and German systems are very highly regarded.

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/file...014_report.pdf

Where did you go where you found the healthcare systems were inadequate?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

And who could forget this case involving a British couple going abroad for treatment

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-effects.html

I given daily mail article specially :)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It's not the best but is is by far the best when it comes to easily accessible free services which are open to all whether they've paid their taxes or not and regardless of their legal status. Incidentally how do you know hoe many illegals are working in the UK when HMG clearly doesn't, these people aren't lving on air so they're either working or stealing. The UK is still one of the easiest places to live under the radar due primarily to the absence of ID cards which are widely required to access services etc. in Europe.

Some close friends of ours emigrated to France a few years ago for family reasons (he's French and she's Polish) after lving here for well over a decade. Even now they're always complaining about how hard it is to get anything done and how much paperwork/ID is required for services which are far easier to access in the UK. It's not the quality of their health service it's the complexity of it all.

As for 99% of migrant will never use the NHS? I'd love to know where that figure comes from because I think it's tosh. For a start, those who settle and have children here will inevitably use it along with a whole lot of other services.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It is a rubbish claim I've seen it in leicester myself where family from india and pakistan come for extended visits to make use of NHS services and I'm sure it happens elsewhere. I'm very aware the NHS isn't perfect especially lately but how much money and resources is it using treating people that shouldn't be here or people who happen to have serious medical conditions and "holiday" in the UK. I'm sure people in dover are over the moon about immigration and the positive force it is for the UK :erm:.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

where did I say I knew about illegal immigration??? They produced stats on who has come here and my entire point is if they pay in like anyone else they have as much right to use the facilities. Believe it or not the vast majority will only use when necessary and when it comes to abusing the system, start looking closer to home on a Friday night when it's full of self inflicted injuries drink related. People honestly need to look beyond migrants as the problem here , you probably find that more migrants (including those coming for EU) are working in the NHS than use it!

And my first job in life was working in the NHS as a clinical support assistant (or cleaner/food prep as its better known as) so I saw who was using it and who workiws there on a daily basis

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

You didn't specify anything in your post merely migrants, hence my questioning the rather vague assumptions you're making, including the 99% claim which is utter tosh.

What homemade drunken louts choose to do to subject the NHS to every weekend is indeed a big problem but is it a problem we need added to by the similarly inebriated migrant element when our NHS and other services are already stretched? Your argument seems to be that because we have plenty of our very own home produced wastes of space, that somehow makes it OK for less than honest, diligent, net contributing, inherently healthy migrants to be able to come here and do likewise. I disagree. I believe we need to tackle the problems we have in our own society without opening the door to yet more abuse from whatever proportion it is of the entire migrant load the UK is groaning under which does very significantly add to our already serious problems and actually contributes very little.

Incidentally, how much tax and NI does a migrant on anywhere near the minimum wage pay do you reckon and how much NHS medical, dental care, free contraception etc. etc. etc. does that buy in your world? If legally here they have a right to these things but is it a right which we can continue to afford? How much is the net contribution of a migrant on low wages who's entitled to child benefit, housing benefit and tax credits? About the same as an indigenous person in the same situation I'd wager but do you call them a net benefit to UK PLC too or is it just migrants who're that?

So you worked in the NHS for a while and that makes you an expert on who's doing what and who isn't. Who's nice and who isn't? Who is entitled and who isn't? I'd wager I have a great deal more personal experience than you of the NHS and know full well it employs a great many migrants some of whom will be better than others in just the same was applies to the indigenous element. I'm not suggesting that all of these people aren't necessary or should be deported, I'm arguing we need to control the amount and quality of the people we take from around the globe and ought also to be paying some attention to the adverse effects hoovering up nurses etc. from poorer nations has in those countries. The migrants who come here to work and build new lives here will themselves one day get old and require the sort of care and resources we're being told we need to import vast numbers of people to cope with. Bit of a problem in the long term that don't you think or is the 'solution' to the UK's difficult situation exponential population growth? The UK's official population growth over the last decade or so has been staggering and there are plenty more people here illegally who are either supporting themselves without paying any tax/NI, existing on charity, stealing or living on thin air. Either way I don't reckon they're a net benefit to our society or economy and I don't see how anyone can seriously argue that the UK can sustain population growth of 1,000,000 (officially) people every three years.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/imm...and-nhs-staff/

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

So with over 150,000 more EU migrants alone coming to Britain than leave every year and a total population of over 3,000,000 migrants who're citizens of another EU country, you assert that more of them work in the NHS than use it? Really?...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Immigration on the scale of recent times has created huge problems that are not offset by their contribution but to talk about immigration in just economic terms is simplistic in the extreme. Whole communities have had their balance destroyed and the strain on services in some areas is horrendous it's ok for people in non affected or low impacted areas to talk about the benefits of immigration but we have a lot of british citizens dealing with the harsh realities of it. Add in the culture of fear within state organisations to say anything but positive things in relation to immigration and it's impact and we have a major problem that is still not being addressed.

I do not want mass deportation or anything like that and for those immigrants who have come here and work we should be open and welcoming but the fact is we have no idea on the real numbers and no clue on dealing with the consequences.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I know several EU migrants that work for the NHS. All are cleaners or other menial jobs. Ditto those who do not work for the NHS.

All have large families with several children, most born in this country.

All receive Housing Benefit, Council Tax Benefit and Working Families Tax Credits. Plus free healthcare and education. They know the system so work the minimum hours possible for the maximum benefits.

Most send large sums of money back to their home countries instead of spending it here.

Ditto all above for many British families, but they seem to spend their money here in the UK.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

They will be taking away jobs from tose already here and thereby leving them on benefits. An overall NEGATIVE impact. A sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes, doing all the jobs poorly paid, dirty jobs the lazy Brits don't want whilst paying significant amounts of tax, sending money back home, hardly using our various health/welfare services and not claiming benefits (working or otherwise) really is going some. It's all so very positive that I'm surprised we don't just solve all our woes and create a modern Utopia by opening the gates entirely.. :rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Not really wanting to comment on that stat but one thing to keep to mind when trying to quantify these things is that the demographics may mean EU migrants use it less. If they're disproportionately skewed towards the young then we're talking about a group in which the majority may never have set foot inside a hospital or surgery. The biggest part of the NHS is care for the elderly and diabetics, the load isn't equal though society. So the demographics matter.

I don't know about the claim more migrants work in the NHS than use it but there could easily be an argument that they benefit it more than they take from it.

As an example the link you quoted shows EU migrants are more likely to be doctors than the native population. That's the kind of migration I would hope of us would want, especially since we need more doctors.

---------- Post added at 15:15 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------

Ok but it seems a lot of them are Doctors.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Damien has put this over better than I have, I am happy to retract the 99% point I poorly came over with this

And plenty more jobs available today, not a problem, a quick search on shows there is many spaces with in our social system to be filled

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I don't know anyone who has a problem with managed migration to attract people with something to offer and skills we need. We don't have that, however, we have unmanaged migration in which anyone from the EU can come here pretty much regardless of what they have to offer. Whichever way you look at that it's not good. It adds significantly to the population and the burden thereof whilst undercutting those in the lower paid jobs which are in most competition. That might just be why BigCorp tends to be in favour of it and was largely anti-Brexit.

Whilst we have fully able, unemployed people of our own there is no sound reason why we should be filling low skilled and manual jobs with migrants. When UK PLC is 'suffering' from full employment that won't be the case but don't hold your breath waiting for that day because there are far too many powerful people who quite like getting richer on the back of mass migration and aren't the ones bearing the brunt of it.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

What we don't have though is crystal clear idea of what the impact is. The first Full Fact link you provided did state that if there is an impact then it's one which is dwarfed by other factors.

It's similar to that Rowntree report that was linked here last week about the impact of migration on wages which did find there was an impact but one which was considerably smaller than the impact felt by even minor changes to the growth or recession of the wider economy.

If we say there is a negative impact on the NHS due to EU migration, which isn't entirely clear, then it's one which would be dwarfed by the impact oftype 2 diabetes for example.

We focus a lot of immigration but it may be that the focus on it is disproportionate to the impact it actually has relative to other issues.

However it may also be the case that looking at this in a nationwide context and via statistics overlooks the impact in specific communities. It may well be that in terms of the service has a whole immigration is fine but that doesn't help a (hypothetical) hospital in Bradford which is under strain. In that case I would say we've failed to properly manage the immigration we have and the Government doesn't react fast enough to localised problems such as that.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Who's suggesting that solving uncontrolled migration is a cure all? Getting control of migration isn't an excuse for not tackling all our other ills and, as I've stated, would at least make sure we are getting people we need as opposed to people we don't. Mass migration on the scale of the last 15 years is unsustainable and undoubtedly creating additional problems we don't need and aren't able to cope with.

All of these things have a geographical element clearly which is why I had to laugh at previous correspondence with the late Charles Kennedy whose constituency wasn't exactly overwhelmed with Scots let alone migrants...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I don't think I implied that others were suggesting uncontrolled migration is a cure all, sorry if I did, but they were none the less overstating the impact. From the evidence we have it would seem the negative effect is negligible if it exists at all. That the time we spend on here debating immigration isn't relative to the problems it causes.

If we were given a choice between halving the rate of diabetes or of immigration then the former would have far larger an impact, or at least that's what those Full Fact links suggest. I know it's rather counter-intuitive to think that large amounts of immigration doesn't drastically impact the NHS but it goes back to the initial point I made in that you have to consider the demographics involved and look at what is actually causing pressure on the NHS.

Slightly off-topic but I remember after Brexit there was a news channel talking to people on the street and there was one young guy who was very happy. He seemed nice, not motivated by racism or fear, and was just happy that now the factories would reopen and he could get a better job (or a job at all). But that probably isn't going to happen because globalisation and free trade would have been a far bigger factor in the closure of those factories than cheap EU Labour.

Even if we're not saying that limiting migration is a cure all I think we're going to see how little a dent it's going to make in any of our problems. Old Age and obesity will continue to be the challenge for the NHS, China and others will be the biggest challenge for UK manual Labour and the economy will dominate even those in impacting us all.

The main benefit to controlling migration is probably better managing social cohesion rather than the NHS, wages or jobs.

Just my reading of the situation anyway. :angel: Obviously my weaknesses here are that I tend to trust statistics over anecdotal evidence which blinds you to the personal impact lost amongst the data and that I live in London which is a world away from many other parts of Britain. We could also get into that as well because London vs Britain is another part of the story but this post is already too long.....

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The scale of the difficulties immigration causes is not really calculable because we have no clue exactly how many are here until we can get that figure to within 10k or so we have little chance of success. We need both stronger borders, patrols of those borders and rapid deportation in place to start getting a handle on this.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

42% increase in hate crimes post brexit, wonder if their is a link...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.ind...android-h3g-gb

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Despite how some think of the UK's anti immigration group we're still quite pleasant about it in terms of consequences and there are many other nations quite nearby prepared to be a lot less pleasant to deal with it.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Hundreds of thousands, I seem to remember being told recently that 75 million turks were already on their way

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

wonder if there really is a rise.A hate crime being reported doesn't always mean a hate crime has happened and i would question a report that has this in it

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Legally speaking, the following is defined as a hate crime:

Any offence can be a hate crime if it was carried out because of hostility or prejudice based on disability, race, religion, transgender identity or sexual orientation.

You may not agree with this law, but as it stands, the above is factually correct.

Some useful links:

To report a hate crime-

www.report-it.org.uk

For support if you have been affected by a hate crime-

www.stophateuk.org

Stop Hate UK is a charity that provides independent and confidential support to people affected by Hate Crime.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

They would have been following the 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians, apparently...

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

I remember the same thing being said about rape...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Indeed Hugh.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Seriously hugh some of your comparisons lately are absolutely ridiculous :rolleyes:

You seriously cannot use something as clearly defined as rape as a comparison to something as subjective as racism ,get some perspective man

---------- Post added at 18:49 ---------- Previous post was at 18:45 ----------

Indeed what ?? Hughs comparison between rape and hate crimes is an absolute joke

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Clearly defined as rape....

Perhaps you need to read up on some of the excuses why 'it wasn't rape'..

'She didn't say no' because she was drunk

'Well, she shouldn't have dressed that way, she was asking for it'

'It can't be rape, we're married/a couple'

Etc., etc.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

your just being ludicrous now

Rape is very clearly defined ,an excuse such as the ones you just listed is not a definition .

and what the hell has this thread got to do with rape anyway ,the Daddy linked an article claiming a rise in hate crime because of the brexit vote ,i questioned it because of the doubt there must be in the conclusion given the statement i quoted .A significant gap between reported cases and successful prosecutions usually means that there is no evidence or very little evidence ,in other words no hate crime has been committed unless evidence is to be fabricated to make the 2 statistics match

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes rape and hate crime completely comparable stupid, an increase in reporting following the brexit vote in and of itself is irrelevant have those figures remained consistent after or was this a spike which could be attributed to a number of factors including groups trying to make a point. My neighbour is polish works as do his wife and daughter and are zero trouble yet every year i get a bnp card pushed through my letterbox with "go back to poland" and "britain is for british" lets not worry that the chimps can't even get the right house this sort of stuff has happened for years. Brexit i highly doubt triggered a sudden group to go out and commit hate crime although given how thin skinned and precious some people are these days being patrotic to the UK would be seen as racism.

If the figures remain high a year from now maybe there will be evidence of a problem but right it's irrelevant.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So you get attack because of your nationality and your called "thinned skin"? it still amazes me how people start with the line "I'm not racist but..." And then proceed to make a ridiculous racist statement.

Brexit vote exposes the ugly truth that Britain is a lot more racist than it cares to believe

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Who's attacked you ? and there was nothing racist about Rizzy's post

Thanks for making my point though

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

How many of the cases of "racism" are where 2 people get into an argument and certain words are used? It seems something is deemed racist if certain words are used. The fact that the argument started because of the racist who didn't use certain words is not counted.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Never said it was, it was an observation

when someone judges someone based on the colour or creed, it's racism. Not thinned skin

Stating that one is not a racist doesn't make that person not a racist or give a free pass to make racist comments

So wasn't making your point at all

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So there are no over sensitive people out there looking to be offended on behalf of others, you really haven't observed this growing phenomenon over the last decade at least. I honestly couldn't care less what people think about me I've already admitted before that i probably am more racist now then i was before and i don't say things just for popularity i express my honest personal opinions and if applicable will include experiences that have contributed to forming my opinions. There are people in our society whose skin is too damned thin and there are people who feel they have the right to a life of zero criticism despite often being the first to criticise others those are what i call precious.

None of which invalidates any points I've made.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes you did you quoted Rizzy in your post and your post 100% proved my point and Rizzy's about people jumping on the racism bandwagon because they feel that the colour of their skin gives them some kind of right to never be criticised

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes it's big business being offended on behalf of others. Some people even feel the best way to show their anti-prejudice credentials is to be prejudiced against their own. Odd that...

Anyway,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37207800

What's he worried about? We all know that migrants are a net benefit so he ought to be clapping his hands with glee and campaigning to stop any deportations I'd have thought. The more the merrier surely? Germany's clearly going to be a huge beneficiary thanks to Merkel...

Oddly though:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rant-challenge

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

What I would like to see is proper news coverage to question the government properly.

e.g. the NHS budget rising with inflation is considered not a cut. When in reality it is a cut because as the population grows the budget per head drops, so a stable budget has to match inflation "and" population growth.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

We cannot increase budgets in relation to population when we have no practical way to control the increase in population where is all this money meant to come from.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Sweden reports half of their immigrants are too under-educated to work so remain unemployed. And many are not even trying to find work or better themselves.

Are they surprised?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

That can't be right though because we know they're a net benefit.

:rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Ok, so I know what your going to say but hear me out please :)

Is there a danger that whatever report they have used has done the "BBC thing" and included refugees under their terms of migrants

I have not seen this report so cannot confirm what the intention was, who it's by, and for what purpose. This could be classic daily express style attack or an official Swedish government which includes all immigrants both refugees and economic, I am also conscious that Sweden took I believe 2nd most in last year in terms of war conflicted area

(I should point I am doing that last star from memory so I could be challenged on that but as I'm on holiday in scilly I'm not intending todo research either :) )

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

One of the reports...


http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/kl...asylkris%3Anyh

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Thank you Taf

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37216881

I wondering what the authorities are planning to do with those they decide are migrating for purely economic reasons. I can't imagine someone who's been dragged from the Med. being particularly happy about being 'rescued' then sent back. Poverty is of course awful but are we really going down the route of using that as a reason to offer refuge because if we are, there's countless millions more people who'll qualify and might well decide to make the same trip. At what point will it stop do you reckon?...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It shouldn't, the point is to offer sanctuary from war torn areas and provide safe haven until the situation has rectified, it's now in its 3rd year and still no solution has been found apart from abandoning search and rescue/shooting boats before they set sail which is really the last (if at all an) option and not a cure to the issue

Economic migrants should be judged separately each on its own merits, this may sound like I changed my tune on this but this is the current rules for non Eu migrants, I am still a supporter of freedom of movement inside EU

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I am not sure anyone, other than a few fringe activists, thinks Europe should take economic migrants at the moment. The problem is how do you separate those with genuine claims and the economic migrants and how do you stop people getting abroad ships to come across to Europe?

Maybe a military force securing the other side of the crossings or, possibility, active operations to take down the smugglers. It's not an easy question.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Exactly. Which is what those who opened the floodgates ought to have thought through before they did so. Of course, way back then, anyone who dared to point this out was labelled a racist. Let's be honest, it was entirely predictable for quite understandable reasons.

---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

There are millions who would quite like to come here from sub Saharan Africa alone and separating the genuine refugees from the economic migrants is difficult if not impossible. The longer even genuine refugees are given refuge the less likely it is that they ever go back. They build lives, have kids etc. and quite understandably don't really want to go back home to a pile of rubble and some tinpot government which might be overthrown next week. A good number of Kosovans did exactly that after we were told they'd all want to go back home and rebuild their country. We have Kosovan friends who confirmed this. They came here as kids, applied for asylum, brought the rest of their family, went back home regularly for holidays etc. but decided to stay here. Having lived here for a good few years, the father died in London and his body was sent back to be buried there but they never wanted to go back to what their country had become. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand why they made that choice (I'd do likewise) but in the real world we cannot give refuge to everyone who deserves it - the numbers are just too big and we're running a real risk of being swamped by desperate people who've had their hopes and expectations of a new life raised. Those who're eventually deemed illegal will fight in any way they can to resist being sent back to the poverty they thought they'd escaped from. This is quite obvious.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

People are streaming in before that though. Merkel's comments about welcoming migrants was after that. The wars in Syria and Libya were the start of this.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

An easy way to tell economic and genuinely in danger is the in danger one's are happy once they reach safety while the economic try to move further into western europe not very hard is it.