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papa smurf 22-05-2019 15:45
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35995808)
Examples are not necessary. This is folklore now.

---------- Post added at 15:32 ---------- Previous post was at 15:30 ----------



Show me an example of the reverse where people asking to debate the issues are called "Treacherous ****" and worse and I will be more than happy to condemn it.

I just ask you to do the same. Over to you ..
A BREXIT supporter died just hours after he was beaten and threatened by a Remain-backing neighbour in a row over the result of the EU referendum.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/197982...eu-referendum/

Pierre 22-05-2019 15:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35995808)

Show me an example of the reverse where people asking to debate the issues are called "Treacherous ****" and worse and I will be more than happy to condemn it.

I just ask you to do the same. Over to you ..
What, you think Remainers are the only ones that get abused, by evil right wing Brexiteers?

You don’t think Brexiteers get abused?

https://mobile.twitter.com/leaveeuof...784?lang=en-gb

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10...er-Tom-Harwood

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7362956.html

Again, there is nothing moral high ground for either side to claim

mrmistoffelees 22-05-2019 15:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35995814)
The referendum simply gave HMG a mandate to take us out of the EU. The idea that it mandated any specific way of doing that is just remainer wishful thinking.

None of the Leave campaigns represented either government or official opposition. The official status of one leave campaign was a legal device designed to regulate funding and access to TV airtime. It did not designate their campaign material as a kind of quasi-manifesto.

You may feel the whole thing was appallingly sloppy and unfair but it was legal, and the result - a simple, naked mandate to leave the EU - was valid.

I’m afraid that arguments based on the exact nature of the mandate granted in 2016, great as they may sound, are not valid.
By the same logic it mandated no specific way to leave the EU. Leave with no deal being the default is the leave voters wishful thinking.

When you can show me explicitly where on the ballot paper it said leave the EU with a completely clean break THEN you have a point.

You voted the options on the ballot paper.

what you were told, and what were on the ballot paper were two differing offerings.

denphone 22-05-2019 16:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35995818)
What, you think Remainers are the only ones that get abused, by evil right wing Brexiteers?

You don’t think Brexiteers get abused?

https://mobile.twitter.com/leaveeuof...784?lang=en-gb

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10...er-Tom-Harwood

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7362956.html

Again, there is nothing moral high ground for either side to claim
Spot on.

Chris 22-05-2019 16:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35995819)
By the same logic it mandated no specific way to leave the EU. Leave with no deal being the default is the leave voters wishful thinking.

When you can show me explicitly where on the ballot paper it said leave the EU with a completely clean break THEN you have a point.

You voted the options on the ballot paper.

what you were told, and what were on the ballot paper were two differing offerings.
Errr ... no. I have never claimed the result of the referendum mandated leaving with no deal. However, actions subsequently taken by parliament have created a legal situation where we leave by default without a deal if Brexit Day passes without one having been ratified.

I would rather we left the EU with transitional arrangements (a “deal”) in place, but above all I fully expect the instructions of the British electorate given in 2016 to be enacted. The lack of a deal cannot be used to thwart the referendum result by the back door.

jonbxx 22-05-2019 16:35
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35995808)
Examples are not necessary. This is folklore now
Very true! Up there with bendy bananas, etc

Synonyms of folklore
legend, legendry, lore, myth, mythology, mythos, tradition

OLD BOY 22-05-2019 16:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35995793)
There is no mandate for No Deal I am afraid. The official Leave campaign did not endorse or promote No Deal in 2016.
Nonsense. We voted for Brexit, not Brino.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35995825)
Very true! Up there with bendy bananas, etc

Synonyms of folklore
legend, legendry, lore, myth, mythology, mythos, tradition
You can bend with the bananas if you want to. Brexiteers are not for bending. :D

Sephiroth 22-05-2019 17:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35995811)
It’s a commonly used tactic, go onto you tube and see infowars or similar where American conservatives attend Leftist anti-trump rallies.

And see how the “American Liberal Left” react to someone with a different opinion wanting to engage in civil debate.

No one can claim moral superiority in this type of thing.


I would be quite happy for the question of deal or no deal be put to the public, then we’ll see if there is a mandate or not. There’s certainly no mandate in parliament, but as we know parliament is not representative of the people.
Excellent point. No deal or May’s deal. Entirely in the spirit of the last Referendum.

1andrew1 22-05-2019 17:06
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35995814)
The referendum simply gave HMG a mandate to take us out of the EU. The idea that it mandated any specific way of doing that is just remainer wishful thinking.
It's also wishful thinking by some Leavers who feel that Parliament should read their minds in terms of the type of exit.

OLD BOY 22-05-2019 18:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35995832)
It's also wishful thinking by some Leavers who feel that Parliament should read their minds in terms of the type of exit.
Only remainers believe that, Andrew. Give us a break!

I'd be interested to hear from you how you expect us to forge new trade deals independently if we remain in the Customs Union.

ianch99 22-05-2019 18:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35995814)
The referendum simply gave HMG a mandate to take us out of the EU. The idea that it mandated any specific way of doing that is just remainer wishful thinking.

None of the Leave campaigns represented either government or official opposition. The official status of one leave campaign was a legal device designed to regulate funding and access to TV airtime. It did not designate their campaign material as a kind of quasi-manifesto.

You may feel the whole thing was appallingly sloppy and unfair but it was legal, and the result - a simple, naked mandate to leave the EU - was valid.

I’m afraid that arguments based on the exact nature of the mandate granted in 2016, great as they may sound, are not valid.
This is your interpretation which you are entitled to. However, the flawed referendum has to be assessed on what was promised and not what all the possible, mathematical permutations may be.

You wish to Leave so you are happy to abandon the principles at stake here. For many, the actions should follow what was discussed & promised. Not what was not discussed and not promised. To do so would devalue the already devalued currency of trust in politicians.

I understand your "Brexit at all costs" approach to this but for the majority of the country, this is not the desired path ..

Angua 22-05-2019 18:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35995838)
Only remainers believe that, Andrew. Give us a break!

I'd be interested to hear from you how you expect us to forge new trade deals independently if we remain in the Customs Union.
So why when people were offered a choice on which sort of Brexit, we ended up with a hung parliament? If the version planned by May was preferred, she would have romped home.

Surely it is better that a government at least attempts to bring the country together, rather than ignore half the voters.

ianch99 22-05-2019 18:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35995815)
A BREXIT supporter died just hours after he was beaten and threatened by a Remain-backing neighbour in a row over the result of the EU referendum.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/197982...eu-referendum/
Your point? Everyone on this forum would condemn this behaviour outright.

Of course, the irony here is that you highlight the kind of hate and division this whole grubby project has emboldened and validated.

Chris 22-05-2019 18:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35995843)
So why when people were offered a choice on which sort of Brexit, we ended up with a hung parliament? If the version planned by May was preferred, she would have romped home.

Surely it is better that a government at least attempts to bring the country together, rather than ignore half the voters.
How do you figure that?

General elections are fought on a range of issues, but if there’s one particular thing that lost it for the Tories it was May’s disastrous campaign in which she promised to take her core vote’s life savings off them.

Both main parties pledged to implement Brexit; beyond that headline I sincerely doubt whether most voters paid much attention to the details of how they proposed to implement it. However, it was emphatically not Labour’s policy to hold a second referendum prior to us leaving. That they have tried to make that a precondition of supporting the Brexit bill is a betrayal of their manifesto and those who voted for them.

denphone 22-05-2019 18:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35995838)
Only remainers believe that, Andrew. Give us a break!

I'd be interested to hear from you how you expect us to forge new trade deals independently if we remain in the Customs Union.
Lets not pigeon hole all remainers please!!!!


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