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mrmistoffelees 02-01-2021 22:18
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36064801)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fever_hospital

The link describes what they did in the past to isolate infectious diseases. The Guvmin built the Nightingale Hospitals which could have served that purpose.

If there is a genuine risk of aerosol transmission to non CV patients, then they shouldn't be taken to a general hospital.

The NHS is badly designed and thus badly managed, imo.
The nightingales are going to be staffed via reservists and military nursing personnel from northern hospitals. The hospitals will act in a step down capacity.

Quite simply there’s not enough nurses or specialist icu nurses to use the nightingales as the primary care facility for COVID sufferers. Whose fault that is, is something that’s up for debate. Some will blame the government (present or past) some the NHS. I think the truth is somewhere between the two.

Julian 02-01-2021 22:32
Re: Coronavirus
 
We could vaccinate more people if the NHS didn't have ludicrous hoops for potential vaccinators to jum through :rolleyes:

Recognising and managing anaphylaxis

Resuscitation, level 2

Safeguarding adults, level 2

Safeguarding children, level 2

Vaccine administration

Vaccine storage

Health, Safety and Welfare, level 1

Infection Prevention and control, level 2

Introduction to Anaphylaxis

Legal aspects of vaccination

Moving and Handling, level 1

Preventing radicalisation, level 1

Conflict resolution, level 1

Core knowledge for Covid-19 vaccinators

Covid mRNA vaccine BNT162b2 (Pfizer BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine)

Data security awareness, level 1

Equality, Diversity and Human rights, level 1

Fire safety, level 1

LINKY

jfman 02-01-2021 22:41
Re: Coronavirus
 
My bet would be the ones highlighted would be online e-learning and probably an hour each max. While the right wing press are running this (Telegraph and the Mail I think) I suspect they’ve been tipped off the 2 million doses a week pipe dream will not be met in January.

If not, I doubt it’s because potential vaccinators didn’t opt to sit for a half day on a laptop and decide not to engage in lifesaving treatment. It’ll be supply and logistics of physical distribution to vaccination sites.

If we miss by 200,000 injections (10%, or one half of a working day) I’ll be first to credit the success of the roll out.

mrmistoffelees 02-01-2021 22:43
Re: Coronavirus
 
The only one I can see an issue with is the radicalisation one
The equality, diversity one is a legal requirement AFAIK
Conflict resolution makes sense.

Actually, safeguarding children? Not many of them getting the vaccine.

Agree also, they’ll be e-learning and doable in ten mins flat

Sephiroth 02-01-2021 22:48
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36064802)
The nightingales are going to be staffed via reservists and military nursing personnel from northern hospitals. The hospitals will act in a step down capacity.

Quite simply there’s not enough nurses or specialist icu nurses to use the nightingales as the primary care facility for COVID sufferers. Whose fault that is, is something that’s up for debate. Some will blame the government (present or past) some the NHS. I think the truth is somewhere between the two.
We agree that there is fault. For the past 20 years, the various Guvmins have screwed up NHS training and recruitment.

Again well within my living past, there were nurses' homes (they didn't need to pay extortionate London rents), the training was free for all medical staff. Now it's high student loans at little incentive to train. This article offers an insiught:

https://theconversation.com/the-numb...o-blame-131077

Quote:
Data shows a year on year decline in graduates feeling prepared for their jobs as foundation doctors, reflecting an increasingly difficult NHS working environment. Doctors’ jobs have always been hard, but the pay-off was that you were made to feel a special part of the NHS and nurtured within caring teams, given on-site accommodation and parking, and were able to cultivate a vibrant social life within your hospital to compensate for the stressful work and long hours. No more.

jfman 02-01-2021 22:52
Re: Coronavirus
 
The radicalisation one is interesting. While the stereotype is Islamic radicalisation - it’s not the only type. Some of the anti-vax/5G crowd are most definitely radical.

I don’t know what would be in any module but if it covers behaviours that are red flags they could be important from a personal safety perspective. It’s almost certain that mass vaccination sites, and those administering the vaccine, could become targets for intimidation, threatening behaviour or worse.

Not necessarily here, but I’d be surprised if across the world there isn’t at least one linked shooting/bombing or other terrorist incident.

Chris 02-01-2021 22:56
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36064802)
The nightingales are going to be staffed via reservists and military nursing personnel from northern hospitals. The hospitals will act in a step down capacity.

Quite simply there’s not enough nurses or specialist icu nurses to use the nightingales as the primary care facility for COVID sufferers. Whose fault that is, is something that’s up for debate. Some will blame the government (present or past) some the NHS. I think the truth is somewhere between the two.
How is there any fault? To fully staff the nightingales with fully qualified medical staff would require them to have commenced training years ago and would have represented a commitment to grossly over staffing the NHS for no justifiable reason. You can’t just keep those numbers of people sitting around, not least because they need to continue to practice to maintain skills.

These facilities were built for crisis management purposes. If things get so bad that they’re full, that’s when they start moving staff around to match skills and requirements as best they can. And once they’ve done that we get into civil contingencies territory. We trained 2 million to fight in uniform in the last world war; if need be we can operate a civilian enlistment programme to fill basic hospital functions, or else train existing uniformed civilians (fire, police) and use the army to provide policing and fire/rescue service. It won’t be pretty but that’s what civil contingencies are about, and you can bet all these ideas and more have been thoroughly considered in Whitehall. The draft legislation to enable whatever is the preferred solution will already have been written.

Sephiroth 02-01-2021 23:05
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36064809)
How is there any fault? To fully staff the nightingales with fully qualified medical staff would require them to have commenced training years ago and would have represented a commitment to grossly over staffing the NHS for no justifiable reason. You can’t just keep those numbers of people sitting around, not least because they need to continue to practice to maintain skills.

<SNIP>
I don't buy that, Chris. We've been bringing in foreign doctors because the job didn't attract sufficient UK candidates for the reasons I previously gave. It's a governmental failure going back more that 20 years.

jfman 02-01-2021 23:05
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36064809)
How is there any fault? To fully staff the nightingales with fully qualified medical staff would require them to have commenced training years ago and would have represented a commitment to grossly over staffing the NHS for no justifiable reason. You can’t just keep those numbers of people sitting around, not least because they need to continue to practice to maintain skills.

These facilities were built for crisis management purposes. If things get so bad that they’re full, that’s when they start moving staff around to match skills and requirements as best they can. And once they’ve done that we get into civil contingencies territory. We trained 2 million to fight in uniform in the last world war; if need be we can operate a civilian enlistment programme to fill basic hospital functions, or else train existing uniformed civilians (fire, police) and use the army to provide policing and fire/rescue service. It won’t be pretty but that’s what civil contingencies are about, and you can bet all these ideas and more have been thoroughly considered in Whitehall. The draft legislation to enable whatever is the preferred solution will already have been written.
Would it necessarily mean “grossly” over staffing the NHS?

There’s waiting lists and NHS treatments being carried out by the private sector. There can be a middle ground of greater funding the NHS - I’m sure someone somewhere made a case for an extra £350m a week recently.

1andrew1 02-01-2021 23:09
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36064808)
Not necessarily here, but I’d be surprised if across the world there isn’t at least one linked shooting/bombing or other terrorist incident.
The pandemic deniers were out in force Thursday night outside St Thomas's Hospital in London.

Quote:
Doctor tells of ‘heartbreak’ as crowd shouted ‘Covid is a hoax’ outside St Thomas’ hospital

A doctor has spoken of his devastation after encountering a crowd of maskless revellers shouting "Covid is a hoax" outside London's St Thomas's hospital on New Year's Eve.

Dr Matthew Lee said he was "disgusted but mostly heartbroken" after filming the group outside the hospital where medics battled to save Prime Minister Boris Johnson's life last year after he contracted coronavirus.

The accident and emergency doctor posted a video of a crowd of people outside the entrance to the hospital near Waterloo on Thursday night.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...l-b633377.html

mrmistoffelees 02-01-2021 23:13
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36064809)
How is there any fault? To fully staff the nightingales with fully qualified medical staff would require them to have commenced training years ago and would have represented a commitment to grossly over staffing the NHS for no justifiable reason. You can’t just keep those numbers of people sitting around, not least because they need to continue to practice to maintain skills.

These facilities were built for crisis management purposes. If things get so bad that they’re full, that’s when they start moving staff around to match skills and requirements as best they can. And once they’ve done that we get into civil contingencies territory. We trained 2 million to fight in uniform in the last world war; if need be we can operate a civilian enlistment programme to fill basic hospital functions, or else train existing uniformed civilians (fire, police) and use the army to provide policing and fire/rescue service. It won’t be pretty but that’s what civil contingencies are about, and you can bet all these ideas and more have been thoroughly considered in Whitehall. The draft legislation to enable whatever is the preferred solution will already have been written.
The NHS doesn’t have tens of thousands of current vacancies for staff that would have been deployable to help staff the nightingales ?

In 2019 there were according to the nursing times 43,000 nursing vacancies

That’s pre pandemic

1andrew1 02-01-2021 23:21
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36064807)
We agree that there is fault. For the past 20 years, the various Guvmins have screwed up NHS training and recruitment.

Again well within my living past, there were nurses' homes (they didn't need to pay extortionate London rents), the training was free for all medical staff. Now it's high student loans at little incentive to train. This article offers an insiught:

https://theconversation.com/the-numb...o-blame-131077
As many of us said at the time, it was a short-sighted idea to introduce loans for student nurses.

---------- Post added at 23:21 ---------- Previous post was at 23:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36064813)
The NHS doesn’t have tens of thousands of current vacancies for staff that would have been deployable to help staff the nightingales ?

In 2019 there were according to the nursing times 43,000 nursing vacancies

That’s pre pandemic
Brexit has not helped matters:

More than 22,000 EU nationals have left NHS since Brexit referendum, figures show

Large drop in the number of new nurses coming from the EU to work in the UK

EU nurses no longer feel welcome in Britain

Sephiroth 02-01-2021 23:38
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36064813)
The NHS doesn’t have tens of thousands of current vacancies for staff that would have been deployable to help staff the nightingales ?

In 2019 there were according to the nursing times 43,000 nursing vacancies

That’s pre pandemic
... and that's because there is no incentive for people to go into the profession. I've explained why earlier.



---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:36 ----------

Agreed. But this rot started well before the Referendum.

OLD BOY 03-01-2021 02:31
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36064774)
Of course it doesn’t mean they’re ill. but you asked why it was needed. the answer is fairly obvious, however in case it isn’t I’ll spell it out for you.

Tier 2,3 and potentially to a degree tier 4 have allowed for these numbers. Now imagine what would happen if we removed the restrictions, cases would increase massively, subsequent hospital admissions, patients requiring ICU and unfortunately deaths would increase massively relative to current rates.

The job of lockdown or restrictions is to try and keep the fire to a slow burn, without them in place it would akin to a raging inferno.
The point being made is there is an alternative to a total lockdown that would ruin the economy. Why isolate everyone when most people will escape the impact of this virus unscathed?

You are just running with this scaremongering mantra.

Hey, do you realise that if infections are running at 500 per hundred thousand, that works out as 5 per thousand? And per hundred, that’s 0.5!

Go figure and start thinking for yourself.

Carth 03-01-2021 02:58
Re: Coronavirus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36064825)
The point being made is there is an alternative to a total lockdown that would ruin the economy. Why isolate everyone when most people will escape the impact of this virus unscathed?

You are just running with this scaremongering mantra.

Hey, do you realise that if infections are running at 500 per hundred thousand, that works out as 5 per thousand? And per hundred, that’s 0.5!

Go figure and start thinking for yourself.
Population of London is around 9 million.
If infections are running at 500 per 100,000, my rough calculation gives 45,000 infected people in London.
Apparently only 10 to 15 percent of those infected will need to be hospitalised . . meaning 4,500 people need a hospital bed for Covid alone, never mind all the other illnesses and injuries that also require hospital treatment.

My math could be wrong . . I still have a couple of bottles to finish off ;)


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