Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35840490)

So you'll be voting on what's in vogue rather than voting with your conscience.

Good call.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35840444)

Because I think that would hit us either way. We can't isolate ourselves off from Europe and they will continue to be a big trading partner for us. Now that trade will take a hit if we do leave Europe, in my opinion, which would help protect us a bit but only in the sense that we'll have done the damage anyway. Alternatively if the Leave campaign are right that we'll keep the benefits of the single market then we take the economic hit in the EU or not in the EU.

If the EU is a sinking ship then all Leave are offering is the option to jump overboard. Either way we're going to drown. Better to try and steer the ship or hope it avoids any icebergs.

The thing is Europe will still be there with their problems. People will still be able to take advantage of their open borders and end up in Calais. Their economic regulations will still apply in any businesses here that wish to trade with Europe, albeit those that don't won't be bound by them, and any economic crash will take us along with it.

I think this article sums up the cautious conservatism of many Remain voters: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/a...for-voting-in/ (open in private/incognito mode if it's paywalled for you).

Originally Posted by Big Brian (Post 35840492)

Nonsense. What Leave are offering is an alternative to the sinking ship.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35840483)

You aren't comparing like for like there for a couple of reasons, not least of which that Norway has a way higher GDP per capita than we do, and contributions are based on that.

If we had the same GDP Norway do we'd be paying nearly 2.5 times as much.

Also worth a look at http://euquestion.blogspot.co.uk/201...orway-pay.html

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35840496)

But they still want to set up an FTA with the sinking the ship and the sinking ship will set the terms of that deal.

The terms will almost certainly require us to pay in a considerable amount to the EU and require free movement of labour which will torpedo the proposal below.

wont happen if you want a FTA with the EU.

---------- Post added at 08:52 ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 ----------



I can't see it, maybe I missed it. But where does it state that the amount of contributions to the EU FTA and other EU programmes are based on the GDP of the state?

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35840498)

You are basing your theory of an FTA post Brexit on a flawed argument.

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35840501)

The EU as a politicial organisation has no incentive to give the UK favourable terms post Brexit as it will only encourage other states to look at leaving themselves. If it took two years for Greenland to set up treaties with the EU post independence with 55,000 residents and pretty much only one industry then how long would it take for the UK to negotiate a trade agreement?

Personally, I think the EU would let the UK dangle after the two year exit period is up so we would be working to WTO tariff rates under MFN rules. As an example, this would include 48% tariff on milk, 22% on meat, 12% on goods vehicles, etc. Ouch.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35840499)

No I'm not.

Free movement of labour is a fundamental principal of the EU and the EEA.

If you want to be part of the EEA then you will have to agree to the free movement of Labour. That is an irrefutable fact.

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35840504)

I am not talking about being part of the EEA, I'm talking FTA, there is a fundamental difference.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35840507)

No there really isn't. We would either have an EFTA-EEA agreement with the likes of Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein.

http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement

Or we could enter into our Bi-lateral agreement like Switzerland has.

https://www.eda.admin.ch/dea/en/home...eberblick.html

In both of these cases not only have the countries had to agree to free movement of Labour, they have had to agree to the Schengen zone - so no border or passport controls

At least at the moment the UK is not in Schengen.

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35840508)

You obviously don't realise what an FTA is. An FTA is a two way street, nothing more, nothing less. It is purely trade orientated.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35840464)

Forget immigration it's a false argument and proof that leave are as inept as remain who use their version of scaremongering. As for trade it's a two way street between us and the rest of the EU we both benefit from continuing free trade and it makes zero sense for either side to complicate it or indulge in trade tariffs of stupid levels. I think what I'm most sick of hearing is how voting to leave is somehow turning our back on Europe and how we will become inward looking and for a lot of us leavers it's a load of rubbish. Voting to leave is the best thing we can do for the whole of Europe and our leaving will allow the UK to get back on the global stage being able to make positive choices for everyone, not tied to those agreements given the green light from Brussels.

Also seeing more and more with this "we can come out later if we are not happy" no you can't look how long it took to get this referendum and the circumstances it took for it to happen the chances of this happening anytime soon after June 23rd is laughable. By hook or by crook and given the EU's past crook more likely, leaving will be made more difficult to do in future I give it a year tops if the UK votes to remain before there is another big EU summit meeting and a brand new treaty. As for voting ukip to get out in future I'd rather chew my own arm off then ever vote for ukip same as the vast majority at the minute and voting them in to get out of the EU with the catastrophic consequences of them in power even for a short while not a chance.

Another fallacy thrown around a lot is this "you've got to be in it to change it" really and this is based on what proof exactly, we are the fifth biggest economy in the world having a vote to leave and to keep us in they agreed to what meaningful reforms??? NONE. The EU hierarchy have no interest in reform because they don't believe it needs reforming the plan and march to the U.S.E is right on course and so far everyone has moaned about it but ultimately not done a thing to halt the progress. There isn't going to be a single meaningful reform until they get the political equivalent of a punch to the jaw the UK leaving would be that it would open debate on the EU in a way that has never been done and allow all member states to stand up and actually be able to demand reform.

I'm not anti European far from it I want a Europe working together in all terms for the better of all Europe and the world and if the EU was working that way I'd be voting remain and flying the EU flag but the EU isn't doing that. It is being run by a group with a single vision and neither the imagination or the creativity to make the EU into a positive force or to adapt to changing global circumstances it's control by committee in the worst way.

I believe Europe is stronger and safer by all nations remaining independent sovereign states that best use their collective power to further a positive agenda and make a positive impact on the whole world. Not by trying to force over thirty different nations (that will be the number by the time they try complete federalism) to be one federal state governed by unelected officials whose interests and agendas have nothing to do with the people of Europe and I have faith that those nations have progressed sufficiently that we are not going to be at each other's throats without the great eu to keep us peaceful, what a crock.

I'm going to do the best thing I can for Europe on June 23rd I'm voting to leave an undemocratic, stagnant and failing project and giving a hope to all those in Europe who feel the same and are waiting for something to spur them into action. Right now we have lazy and incompetent politicians on both sides negatively campaigning to scare us into their agenda but we have a chance to show them there are so many more possibilities available to us by doing the unthinkable and leaving and that we as individuals can both rise above and see beyond the blinkered vision they have.

Have confidence in ourselves as a people and that our nation has the strengths and values this world needs and put aside personal materialistic or selfish reasons and do something truly worthwhile on June 23rd make a start to maybe a better world.

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35840504)

The least you can do is post a link to your source as I have done when needed.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35840510)

There's only one conceivable way in which we'll get offered a second referendum and that's if we vote to leave. Now why does that sound familiar when it comes to the EU eh?? :confused: :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35840486)

They could've changed my mind relatively easily, I used to be very anti eu, long before it was fashionable but sadly it was beyond them to put a case forward so I think I'll be sticking with remain