Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If no "border" is imposed (with no checks by U.K. on goods coming in from the EU (Ireland)), WTO Most Favored Nation rule means that the U.K. cannot have checks on goods coming from any country.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

EU have informally approved the extension request

https://apple.news/ArGLOBJoYQZunioQQZ22qcQ

Such nastiness

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:gpoint:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Where does this leave minced beef smugglers ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In the knacker's yard?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In the same boat as the Budgie smugglers.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You've missed a few. Add peace in Ireland. Add peace in GB. Add the integrity of the GB single market. Add the integrity of the European single market.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'll drink to that:tu:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well said.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Should the UK just ignore the WTO?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It does when there is a contiguous border with another country - ignoring it won’t make it go away.

If we want trade agreements with other countries, telling the WTO to "sod off" is a sub-optimal approach.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No such market to sod. ;)

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

Yup, we're in the realms of fantasy politics if such approaches were ever taken!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Whatever frustrations you might post in jest, I know you're wise enough to know matters are regrettably more complicated than this.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

When the U.K. Internal Market has a contiguous border with a country that is not in that internal market, and there are no checks on goods crossing that border, to the potential detriment of other countries trading with the U.K., it has everything to do with the WTO.

Stating facts is not "EU loving crap".

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So how would you square keeping the NI/IE border open without checks AND keeping the trade between GB and NI open?

Maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part but at least one of these three agreements needs to be broken;

Northern Ireland Protocol
Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement
World Trade Organisation MFN rules

It looks like the first is the one we want to break but that will then break the Belfast Agreement unless we keep the border open, breaking the MFN rules

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or, the UK could align standards, but from what I've seen they're refusing to do that...... I can't think why

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Would the WTO be happy with this idea? How could you stop NI-only goods leaking over the invisible border into the Republic eg lots of cheap Australian beef and wine in the future?

---------- Post added at 10:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------

The UK needs to be a friendly neighbour and align veterinary standards as they are now and stop the aggressive rhetoric.

Problem solved - or does BoJo like the current divisive situation so the Express/Telegraph can devote copy to how bad the EU is and reassure voters that they made the right choice? Despite what farmers, steel workers, fishermen, touring bands, the City, etc might be whinging about.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Boris doesn't want to align standards due to one simple reason (as you well know), it would cause significant issues with future trade deals (looking at the US here)

He's up the creek without a paddle & he knows it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Biden has said it's not an issue for a US trade deal.
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-e...-pact-ireland/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ireland is a bit of a unique situation being one country and two countries both at the same time. It's both in the EU and not in the EU.


We can't just try to apply normal rules to an abnormal situation.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's not really rules intepretation though is it? It's changing the rules. The UK agreed that NI would be (sort of) part of the EU Single Market to keep the NI/IE border open. Now we want to change that.

There were mechinaisms in place for border posts for GB-NI trade that would facilitate the segregation of GB and EU goods but the unionists stopped them.

On your final point of MFN/WTO rules, like it or not, Northern ireland does border the EU. Without the NIP, WTO/MFN rules would apply and that either close the border or open all UK borders to unlimited trade.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So, Boris is just being awkward then....

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The UK and EU are global trading entities who have to abide by WTO rules or face the consequences. As Hugh has outlined.

Who? A politician with a legal background? ;)
He seems to be going all a bit all ideological on this.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Point 2. No it doesn't, As the EU aren't doing anything illegal. (The UK government has already admitted such) if the UK govt. attitude is anything like yours with your insatiable use of 'perfidious' and referring to them as 'the enemy' why on earth would the EU shift stance?

Point 3. You would need someone who firmly believed in Brexit, as any appeasement towards the EU would be met with ghastly horror by many Brexiteers. I can't think of one who would be suitable?


The EU hold the cards here.......

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Even the sim cards as roaming charges set to be reintroduced,

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The UK could always legislate against roaming charges if it wanted to, as that's all the EU has done, there is no EU funding mechanism for it.

The deflating balloon continues to deflate.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57595913


---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------

Agreed
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/23/u...cmd/index.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Fine by me. I’ve not traveled in Europe for years. Why should my mobile phone bill subsidise those who do? Abolishing roaming charges was never intended to save money. It was a political move designed to further the illusion of the EU as a single, seamless territory. The phone companies faced a loss of income by no longer having the option to charge customers the additional cost of managing their use via a third party telecoms network. Hands up who seriously thinks they haven’t simply rearranged the deckchairs and recouped as much of that as possible from everyone else ...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It was fun while it lasted. I used to whizz through the phone charges when I travelled abroad for work. We're talking £30-40 in roaming fees each trip. When I have 5-10 trips a year, it soon adds up. Data was the killer...

Saves my work thousands a year with roaming being free in the EU for UK employees. We'll just have to wait and see what the network my company uses decides to do.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It went from one extreme to the other! It was originally like the Wild West with people reporting bills in two and three figures and costs being opaque. And then it reduced to just UK charges.
I hope we don't return to rip-off Britain days.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As someone who used to work on Interconnect* billing for a mobile company and a Cable company, once the recharge mechanism was set up, there was very little additional cost.

*Interconnect - recharging for phone usage within or between countries using your Home Country phone.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yup, the costs previously charged by the mobile companies to consumers roaming included hefty mark-ups. Hence an easy win for the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I thought it worked by making operators co-exist without the massive mark-up?

It's like banking fees for international transactions where there wasn't any real justification for some of the prices the retail banks charged for them but it made them money.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Who cares? Roaming charges were not a factor in leaving or staying in the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If it’s a price-gouging issue then UK regulators can and should intervene. Given the period of charge-free roaming we’ve just had, there is presumably the beginnings of a case already. I noticed that EE carefully justified its move by earmarking the additional revenue for UK network expansion, which is a pretty blatant attempt to align with present government targets on the rollout of 5G and overall improvement in coverage. The networks must all be aware that they’re not going to get away with high charges for nothing, especially when the present government may be quite sensitive to Press stories blaming it on Brexit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You may be relishing this, Andrew, but I think EE is on its own here and will be forced to backtrack. If they are the only ones charging these exorbitant fees, other companies will reap the benefits of having more customers. Almost certainly, EE will be forced to backtrack.

Sorry to burst the EU love-in bubble, mate.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Dunno why I should be relishing this. Hopefully, companies won't price gouge as they did before the EU's intervention but will charge an appropriately small mark-up. And I'm with Virgin Mobile who've not announced any changes yet, as far as I know.

Not that I have any plans to visit Europe any time soon due to covid. But we're blessed in this country with an amazing coastline and a wealth of great countryside, mountains, towns, villages and cities which is where my holiday spend is going this year. So won't be impacted in 2021 even if VM does do somethng similar to EE.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Unfortunately, most holidaymakers here want sun and warmth. A holiday in Britain? I think I’ll give that a miss.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just back from 5 days near Filey, great sunny weather and quite hot. I've also got a very nice tan, and would definitely look the part if I wore a turban :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:D:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1624652623

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Close Hugh, just add a few wrinkles and it's about right . . . but then there's the white rings around the eyes where the sunglasses prevented the tan

The wife thought it was quite hilarious for days afterwards :eek:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You need to get over your EU holiday obsession and give Blighty a blast. More to holidays than sunbeds and sangria. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I have an A5 ring binder, that I use to store specific facts and information about that very resort. I call it my “Filey Fax”

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Bloody hell that sounds painful..:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Frankly, I would rather not have a holiday than subject myself to a tan from standing in the English rain. (With apologies….)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A5 not A55!!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Dude, take some Prozac - that pulsating vein in your forehead’s going to pop soon if you don’t chill out… :erm:

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2021/06/2.gif

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If we have an "enemy", it’s Russia, who have killed people in our country, threaten our ships, and try to undermine our democracy.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...tack-66vglvt7d

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's hilarious, reminiscent of a few people i know.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think we need to remind Macron and Merkel who won the war!:D:rofl:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not you, as you weren’t alive then… ;)

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 22:07 ----------

I’m not the one ranting and raving…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.theguardian.com/business...s-covid-brexit[/quote]

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I am sure that in the members bar of the Sir Bufton Tufton Memorial Society* (Winnersh Triangle Branch, Honorary Life President Sir John Deadwood) this sort of diatribe is seen as normal everyday conversation, but in the real world, not so much… ;)

*club motto - "it was better in the old days, when Johnny Foreigner knew his place… "

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Unfortunately, the facts don't favour your argument. It is the British government that does not want to honour its agreements with the EU and is asking for an extension.

Boris Johnson seems to be intent on resurrecting the Perfidious Albion branding that we shook off a long time ago.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Boris does owe a degree of responsibility. But I think it's optimistic to think that Brexit was ever going to turn out well. And a clean break would have been impossible whilst Northern Ireland was part of the UK and the Republic part of the EU. That's the dream of keyboard warriors and nothing seriously entertained by any British Prime Minister, even one not known for his love of detail!

What lots of your rhetoric is masking is what some of us went around in circles with back in 2016 - we're a large country but we're negotiating with far larger blocs and countries. Size matters in negotiations and smaller entities do get bossed around. That's why I came to the same conclusion as Thatcher and Churchill - it's better to be in the tent pissing out than outside it getting wet.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It does feel sometimes that a lot of people learnt nothing from the Suez Crisis - the last nail in the coffin of the British Empire. It's an argument that the creation of the EEC and EU was a direct reaction to the US ruffling the UK and Frances' hair and reminding us that we weren't the big boys any more

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah the EEC worked OK, the monster it evolved into doesn't though

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They've got less debt than us and Germany sells four times as much to China as we do. Something seems to be working ok for them.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

1/ Didn't care what the other countries may or may not have wanted to do but the UK was not on course to do this in 2015 nor did I want it to.
2/ Don't know enough about the history of this to comment. Certainly, I'm pleased we left the ERM and I've never wanted the Euro.

I see our ideal position as somewhere between a full-on member like Germany and an affiliate like Switzerland. I thank we had the balance right before but we've now gone too far in the opposite direction but in time we will become closer.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

*in time we will become closer*

To what, the Federal German Republic and all of it's satellites?

At least the UK only has N. Ireland as a problem, I think there are a few brewing for the EU ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The ERM undervalued the Deutschmark and because of the way the ERM worked, other member states were obliged to buy and sell currencies in order to keep it that way. Eventually the Euro locked in the advantage. “Oh well Germany does loads more trade with China than us so therefore the EU is great” is, frankly, an economically illiterate argument to make because it fundamentally misunderstands some of the most foundational policy objectives of the European project.

The postwar settlement was designed to enable Germany to rebuild its economy based on industry and for France to produce enough to feed both countries. That was handled initially by pooling and sharing coal and steel resources, and soon afterwards with a broader economic union drawing in neighbouring states.

Unsurprisingly, the military security of the continent was taken right out of German hands by placing it with NATO, which ought to be repeated loud and often, especially when the EU is held up as in some way responsible for preventing another European war. NATO prevented war by confiscating Germany’s guns, occupying half the country and then pointing nuclear missiles at the paranoid dictatorship that came to occupy the other half. NATO’s political and military control is entirely disconnected from the EU, which is as it should have been because the whole idea was to lock Germany out of military issues. The western allies have taken care of Germany’s security for it, and given the murderous tendencies of Stalin’s Soviet Union, doubtless saved it from being wholly occupied by the Red Army (for the avoidance of doubt on this issue, see the Berlin Blockade).

In the midst of all this, Germany has been free, in fact has been actively encouraged and enabled, to become an economic powerhouse. Whether the very measures designed to prevent it destabilising Europe ever again will in the long term actually cause destabilisation, is yet to be seen.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Astonishing that none of the usual link-sharing suspects have rushed to share this piece of #despitebrexit news this morning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57666008

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not everybody watches the BBC and as the story is only a few hours old it has only just made it to the other news outlets. Reuters story for example is only 39 minutes old.

Nissan have also chosen to close one of its EU factories instead.

---------- Post added at 10:43 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Great news for the Sunderland and its surrounding areas (Washington, Birtley etc.)

Hopefully this will continue in other areas of the country

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good news.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

More good news. Not strictly Brexit-related but it looks like the Vauxhall plant in Ellesmere Port is safe as it will shift to electric vehicle production.
https://news.sky.com/story/vauxhalls...ction-12347390

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Excellent news

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Agreed, fair call. Nissan had warned that no deal = no Sunderland factory.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Does it matter why it's happening

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes, it does. If we don’t connect cause and effect, how will we ever learn?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Surely, the obvious solution is for the UK to agree veterinary equivalence. The US says this won't stand in the way of a trade deal.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...er-ni-protocol

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Haha, quite!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just checking your terminology here … do you mean equivalence, or alignment? They’re not the same. Agreed equivalence is a fairly standard aspect of an international trade deal in which both sides agree to accept each other’s standards as equally high even if they differ on the details. Alignment is when one or both sides insist that products imported into their market must comply with their market’s rules.

The reason I’m asking is, Euphiles and remainiacs generally advocate for alignment, because they see it as a way of keeping the UK close to the EU (presumably with the long-term aim of rejoining). Brexiteers oppose alignment, because the whole point of Brexit was to give us freedom to set our own market rules. Alignment with the EU requires us to implement directives set in Brussels, without any longer having the ability to influence the way those rules are formulated. That clearly is a worse democratic position than before.

Mutual acceptance of standards as equivalent, however, is something that neither the UK nor the EU should have any problems with, if they are motivated by willingness to deal and pragmatism as to solutions. In fact I believe mutual acceptance is what the UK has advocated for, not just with regards to NI but broadly in our futures arrangement with the EU. I suspect that this has not been reciprocated and it is the EU that is exhibiting a lack of pragmatism in refusing to allow chilled, processed meats to enter the single market from the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Today marks 245 years, American Independence Day, when the United States of America, left Britain without a deal. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And look what a hellhole it has become.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

look at the idiot in charge.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yep, especially in Democrat run States.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Better than the idiot before.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It’s debatable when Democrats run around officially boasting about saving Americans $0.16 (Yes, they actually did this http://www.nypost.com/2021/07/01/whi...4-cookout/amp/ ) buying barbecue stuff for the 4th July celebrations, compared to last years prices. But gas (Petrol) ⛽️ prices through roof over there and they’re rising steadily over here too. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile Nissan isn’t leaving the UK like the Remain maniacs, said they would. £1 Billion investment, kerching.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Don't give Scotland any ideas, Mick!