Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

So, not the leaker, then?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

She was sacked on the spot having shown Cummings the content of her mobile phone apparently, so there wasn't the opportunity to prewarn Sajid.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

The left-wing press will doubtless want to spin this up into a story of chaos and mistrust at the top of government. The BBC’s report, however, is somewhat more balanced and worth reading in full. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49526811

Johnson has the right to refuse to allow the appointment* of any individual to a special adviser role working for any minister. Theresa May did the same to him when he tried to employ one of his former city hall staff.

Whatever they found in her phone logs was obviously serious enough that she needed to have her access and privileges cut immediately. Sajid Javid might be peeved at it apparently going over his head but I doubt this by itself is going to sour his relationship with Boris.

* and therefore also withdraw consent ... i.e. dismiss, sack, fire, etc etc etc

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Hope she gets prosecuted if she's been leaking sensitive government information.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It might, finally, reduce the number of leaks from no 10, which frankly have reached an unacceptable level. Good on Boris to tackle it.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Yes. I’ll agree to that.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Excitement is obviously very subjective, I find it annoying, tedious, frustrating, bollocks. Exciting.....no.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Constitutional crisis is always fun. Being able to witness the death of the UK unfold would be truly historic. Like being able to see the Bolshevik Revolution or the American Civil War.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Well if the welcoming the advent of death stiffens you up, then knock yourself out, or probably knock yourself one out. Whatever floats your boat.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

We're now expected to have ask permission from certain quarters on who or what to vote for. Otherwise they will try everything to block it.


The proroguing of Parliament is for a short period of time with a specific time frame, mainly shifting days to a period when Parliament wouldn't otherwise be sitting. It isn't over an issue that hasn't been fully put to the electorate.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

If worst came to worst there’s death everywhere. Just because these would be (generally) white people with closer geography to me than civil war or famine in Africa is irrelevant to me really.

Hopefully the end of the UK would be peaceful, but nothing worthwhile is ever achieved easily.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=1501 confirmed she didn't leak August's Operation Yellowhammer report. Apparently, it's now an offence to have any kind of contact with fellow Conservative Party members. :shocked:

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

One Conservative speaking to another Conservative doesn't make either a fifth columnist.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Slowly becoming a bigger and bigger story but more EU citizens are getting denied fulled status despite meeting the alleged requirements: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKCN1VK0CV

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Errr ... you’re usually a little more measured than this. Is the constitutional chaos getting to you?

There are a couple of problems here. The first is, how do we say people have met the “alleged requirements” if they can’t provide the evidence? What evidence are you leaning on in order to judge this case?

Second, if she has met the requirements but her application has failed because of an excessively rigid application of the rules, how does that amount to politicians lying? Are you (or Reuters) suggesting a systematic programme of denying settled status to people who ought to qualify, in order to keep the numbers down?

Third, are we seriously still pretending we don’t understand the difference between a referendum campaign, in which participants suggest what opportunities their preferred outcome might present, and an electoral campaign in which the winners gain power and may reasonably be expected to make good on their promises?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

No, I know people who get impacted by this rubbish process and it's terrible.

How many people actually have solid evidence they've been here for a long time? It turns out the Government do not seem to be able to refer to their own tax records half the time even though they claim they can so often applicants need to find their own proof and if you've lived here for decades chances are you haven't kept meticulous records of these details.

People can try to find mortgage statements, bank statements, whatever they can but it's never clear if this will be enough to satisfy the person judging these things. This is worse for people with less conventional working arrangements since P60s e.t.c are the best evidence but even then they request additional evidence you were in the country for the duration of that tax year.

Turning around to people who've never had to question their right to be here and demand they provide evidence of that is an awful way to treat people.

I removed that, presumably while you were posting, because I felt it went too far but there isn't a doubt in my mind they had no idea if people would be fine and just didn't care. It was a game to them, the assurances a soundbite to help manage a risk in the campaign.

But the politicians I was referring to are in charge now and have yet to make it clear what happens when we leave. I know of EU residents that aren't applying in case they get rejected but at the same time this might cause a problem for their work, for getting back in the country and for the NHS.

There will be loads of EU citizens that either 1) fall foul of the system or 2) don't apply come October 31st.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

She's a committed Brexiter - "shadow director" Dominic Cummings comes across as a tad insecure here.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

She worked for Liam Fox and the Taxpayers Alliance - not sure you’re being accurate with your supposition.

When I was a Area Vice-Chairman for the Yorkshire Area Young Conservatives (and a member of the National Executive, and on the Candidates List), I had in my phone contacts a number of Labour Party members (including an MP), some trade union officials, TRG and FCS members (groups in the Tory Party with completely opposite views), and Social Democrats (remember them?) - these were family, friends, colleagues and ex-colleagues; did that make me a "fifth columnist"?

When we fire people because of their contacts, it is the first step on a very slippery road...

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I'm a bit mystified by the fifth columnist rhetoric given her pro-Brexit beliefs.
Sounds like she was quite open about meeting a fellow Conservative even if they didn't agree on Brexit. Heck, she even gave Cummings her personal phone as well as her work one. This doesn't come across as how a strong democracy should function in 2019.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Some of the best contacts are surely your opponents. Old politics would involve trading of deals here and there, you support this amendment, we will do this... you abstain from this vote, we might be able to find something here. Not in a corrupt sense, but the sense of trying to give everyone something that we all just get along.

Brexit politics isn't like that. It's do or die for both sides. No deal vs remain. Normal rules of politics are gone.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Why don't you give the source of your quotes?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Could be worse, could be behind a paywall.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It could be, we can't tell that from the post itself as a source isn't listed.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

The source has already been listed. It's just that certain people only take quotes out of context to suit their agenda.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Because it was it had already referred to in the post I was replying to. The quotes I used were later on in that same article. Perhaps I should have highlighted that. Effectively it had been referred to in the "Originally posted by Damian" part of my reply.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Thanks, it wasn't obvious to me, others have said stuff along the lines of "from the article you linked to..."

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Boris Johnson will take on Remainer Tories by sacking MPs who vote to block No Deal Brexit

TORY MPs who vote to block a No Deal next week will be sacked from the party, we can reveal.

No10 will bar Remainer rebels from standing at the next general election.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit...s-sack-brexit/

At last a PM with the guts to stand up to these democracy deniers :tu:

---------- Post added at 08:58 ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 ----------

Didn't that annoy mr Churchill ??

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

So you are an anarchist, then....:erm:

---------- Post added at 09:19 ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 ----------

Yes, this should have been done some time ago. A considerable amount of indiscipline has come about in Conservative ranks - it had to be tackled.

However, this makes a General Election more likely. If we get one now, this will be the best solution. Hopefully, the Fixed Term Parliaments Act will not prevent this.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Needs support from the opposition to call a GE early. Wonder if Corbyn and his GE fans have realised this is exactly what Johnson wants?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

He has them concentrating on other things.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

That's a very undemocratic response. If you don't vote in agreement with me, you'll be sacked. Dictator like stance.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Not really, it would force a General Election. Although those MP's would not be able to stand as Conservatives they could still stand in their constituencies and allow the people to decide if they wanted them as representatives in Parliament.

Hardly the stance of a Dictator.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And a "yes the majority may have voted for X, but we're determined to using every trick to make sure they don't get it" stance isn't?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Oh Seph, you've made my day, that's the funniest thing I've read on this forum for a long, long time. :D:D:D
Thank you!

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

That's a good description of your average remainer;)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I suspect most people don’t realise the extent to which this is how normal parliamentary business has been done over many years. Much of what we see on TV, PMQs and other set-piece debates, is political theatre. But Jacob Rees-Mogg is once said to have warmly welcomed a new SNP MP to Westminster with the advice that the true division in the Commons isn’t between the two opposing benches, but between those who are in the executive and those who aren’t. When the Commons is working well, it produces well-crafted law and holds the government to account, while ultimately recognising the right of the government to govern.

At the moment, as you’ve pointed out, both sides of the Brexit debate have become so entrenched that parliament is unwilling to allow the government to exercise its powers and the government is unwilling to allow parliament to conduct oversight.

Where I suspect we differ is that I think Brexit is a boil that absolutely must be lanced, and quickly, for better or worse. We absolutely have to get it done, and then have the confidence to pick ourselves up and make the best of wherever we find ourselves. Those who are trying to stop it (and in that category I place many of those who claim only to be trying to delay it in order to ensure we get a better deal) are pursuing a course of action that will only ensure the running battle between legislature and executive continues and grows deeper. That’s not a great state of affairs.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

If Remain had won, there would have been none of this nonsense from the Leave side that is going on from the Remain side. Nobody would be attempting to overturn a Remain win. It's all very one-sided. Any current antagonism from the Leave side is in response to the shenanigans of the Remain side. What else are they expected to do? Just roll over and let the losing side take over and win?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

He won't understand that unless it's linked to a paywall;)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Imagine the outrage if John Major had proposed doing this to the Eurosceptic MPs in the 90...

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Which democratic vote were the Eurosceptic MP's trying to overturn?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

The one where the Tories won the 1992 General Election, when the manifesto included signing the Maastricht Treaty...

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Not that one this one

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

That was the one where Major got 42.2% of the votes on a 77.7% turnout gaining a huge majority of MPs.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Iain Duncan Smith lashes out at BBC in campaign against Brexit bias - 'What happened?'

Boris Johnson recently announced the move to extend the suspension of Parliament ahead of the Queen's Speech on October 14. Numerous #StopTheCoup protests have broken out across the country against the Prime Minister’s action, with members of the public taking to the streets in London and Manchester. Iain Duncan Smith retweeted a video which criticised the BBC for “promoting protests to their huge audience”.

The video also claimed “83 percent” of MPs appearing on the BBC’s Today Programme since Mr Johnson announced the Queen’s speech were pro-Remain.

In the “#StandUp4Brexit” video, it is claimed: “Since Boris announced the Queen’s speech the BBC have been relentlessly biased.

“Since the announcement, a review of 18 Brexit guests on the BBC R4 Today Show indicates 83 percent in favour of Remain.

“They’ve promoted civil disobedience, promoting protests to their huge audience.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11...-today-live-UK

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And then 5 years later, lost to the Labour Party, who won in a landslide, go figure.... :rolleyes:

We should never have joined the disgusting and corrupted, Anti-democratic EU.

John Major, should keep his hypocrisy stinking trap shut, he prorogued parliament in 1997 for political reasons, to avoid parliamentary scrutiny during the "cash for questions" scandal.

Now he's joined Miller, in a Judicial Review of a Royal Prerogative Power, a convention, while the Queen cannot be challenged by any UK Court, the advice can be and a Judicial Review will not alter and cannot alter a decision made by the Queen, she approved proroguing, is a subordinate system to her, that's a Judge or Justices of any Court system that administers justice on her Majesty's behalf, who swore an oath of allegiance to the reigning monarch, going to tell her, she has to reverse her decision to prorogue because she, according to them, received the wrong advice?

Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

If anything, the UK Judiciary should stay out of political decisions or conventions that have been made by the executive.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Very much like Corbyn’s style of leadership.

---------- Post added at 16:48 ---------- Previous post was at 16:37 ----------

Typically the Brexit Bias Corporation decree “thousands” protest.

Well.....maybe if you add all the protests together nationwide you may get a couple of thousand.

But even their photos just should a few hundred at best.

Believe me I am currently on the train home from spending four days in London with family.

Today we went to Trafalgar Sq, walked down the Mall to the Palace and then onto the Science Museum, wasn’t hindered in the slightest, saw a few kids with EU flags and that was it.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I was in London too today and also near the Mall! Maybe we passed each other. :D

But on Whitehall there were definitely quite a few people. At least several hundred, I did to double back to avoid them. Looking at the video: https://youtu.be/GCs_hwhtOgg?t=15 then that almost certainly reaches 1000s

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Could well have been kids, I was only passing so didn't pay attention to the demographics so much.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

I think you're misrepresenting the ignorance of young people, they tend to be smarter than their elders (who aren't always that informed either) give them credit for.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Young people are simply inexperienced, which is no reflection on their intelligence. They tend to believe what their teachers tell them, and of course teachers tend to support staying in the EU.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Come on Seph, when you tell them that at last we have an honest government you can't blame them for taking your next pronouncements - as correct as they may be - with a large pinch of salt.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It is a generalisation I agree. There are gullible people old and young on both sides of the debate, that will believe anything they are told, or that is posted on FB, Twitter etc, without researching things for themselves from trusted sources.

For example, the youth are told after Brexit that they won’t be able to travel in Europe, that they won’t be able to work in Europe, that they won’t be able to study in Europe.....all of which is complete tosh, and they believe it.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Maybe also because they have been told the great fib that we're leaving Europe. I had an old fella tell me he voted Remain because he wanted to remain European, I told him, we would still be, as and when we actually leave.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Seph, that particular bus was not done by the Government.
I refer of course to the more recent lies including stating that Project Yellowhammer was produced by Theresa May's administration and was out of date when they knew it was produced in August 2019 for the current regime. I could list many more but I need to go to bed this side of 4am. ;)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

So the contents were new and not just a rehash of old scare stories?:rolleyes:

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Not scare stories - Project Yellowhammer is about the most likely scenario, not the worst-case scenario.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It was an updated risk assessment, highlighting the likely scenarios and mitigating actions - so no, not a "rehash of old scare stories"

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

"Likely" doesn't come into it as it was "worst case" scenario. Was there anything new?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

It was not a worst-case scenario.
https://news.sky.com/story/operation...ained-11788972

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

This shows perfectly what we’re up against as a country.

Labour accuse the Tories of being anti-democratic..................

At least BoJo is trying to deliver what was voted for. This video just underlined how duplicitous Labour are.

https://www.facebook.com/stopthelabo...550839?sfns=mo

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

For those like me who avoid Facebook.



Here's another one for you.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

No one voted for a no-deal Brexit. It's duplicitous of Boris to entertain such a non-democratic notion.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Been through this a thousand times. Deal Brexit / no deal Brexit, along with any other descriptor was not on the ballot paper.

Just no or yes.

Boris will just be delivering on the biggest democratic mandate this country has ever given a PM.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

52-48?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

More or less.

And 48-52 would have resulted in us remaining in the EU just as emphatically. It was a referendum with a binary question, no quorum and no supermajority required. As we have been over many, many times.

Incidentally, the reason the team is allowing Brexit discussion here is because for the most part it is presently relevant to Boris Johnson’s “new broom” approach to government and Brexit.

We aren’t about to allow the thread to collapse into endless pointless repetition of all the old, old arguments about the legitimacy of the referendum, the mandate afforded by the result or whether “nobody voted for X”.

So let’s try and keep things on track, please. :)

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

That’s fair, but to describe it as the “largest mandate afforded to a PM ever”? As you correctly point out a small swing the other way would have resulted in something entirely different happening.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

If you want to "keep things on track", you and your moderator colleagues need to challenge posts where false claims are made. For example, Brexit was not the "biggest democratic mandate this country has ever given a PM". If you keep people honest then the members will not have to.

On the subject of the said Johnson Government, I am disappointed but not surprised to see what people are prepared to accept and, more, enthuse over in order to get Brexit over the line. The UK used to be a place where most people were moderate and considerate of their fellow citizens. No more, Cameron's tragic decision has turned this country into an inward looking and bitterly divided society. We are only just seeing the "rewards" of this tragedy.

We have a PM who has appointed a Rasputin-esque figure as his chief advisor who is relishing his power at No.10. Dismissing people for Thought Crimes no less. Johnson's arrogance in his ironic suspension of parliamentary democracy and the latest gem: Gove refusing to guarantee that the government will abide by any law that may be passed by Parliament.

You have the naive saying that after we Leave, the country will come together. No chance, this is just the beginning of Brexit. The only consolation is that this whole grubby fiasco will condemn the Tories to political oblivion. As the older voters shuffle off, they will be replaced by a generation who the Tories have spectacularly betrayed. They will not forget or forgive ...

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Biggest mandate by way of the number of people that voted in it.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Nope: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-refer...atic-exercise/

Can we just drop the "we won, you lost" crap? This stuff is just designed to wind people up. We are where we are ..

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And an almost equally high number specifically voted the other way. However let's not get bogged down in semantics.

I'd interpret biggest mandate as an interpretation of the extent of victory, otherwise it's essentially a measure of population growth.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Why wasn’t it?

The referendum is in the record books as the biggest ever democratic exercise this country has ever seen?

And you wonder, after 3 years! And the democratic decision of the biggest ever democratic exercise has not been delivered, Why that may be the case?

It seems as though if all the moderation and consideration is going your way you’ll be happy, but not willing to put your consideration towards those that actually won the decision.

Your hypocrisy is breathtaking, as is your sense of entitlement.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Agreed, it is the % of the electorate that voted that is the true measure. Absolute numbers need to be normalised, as you say, for population size.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Always happy to be corrected, but from your link.

I’m happy to work on that basis, cheers.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Bless ..

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Your statement collapses exactly at the point you say “almost”

---------- Post added at 17:20 ---------- Previous post was at 17:19 ----------

:tu:

---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:20 ----------

I refer you to the link you referred me to

:tu:

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Agreed, the article concludes that:

Claim

The 2016 EU referendum was the largest democratic exercise in the UK’s history.

Conclusion

Not quite. More people voted in the 1992 general election. It also had a higher turnout rate, as did other elections in the 20th century.

Enough ... let's discuss Mr Johnson and Government.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Bless.....

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Not really. It’s a small mandate, but one none the less.

You wouldn’t describe a party winning a general election by 1% as having an overwhelming mandate on the basis of high turnout.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

No, but as the link provided kindly provided by Ianch99 points out. On a single issue.....not a party manifesto that contains all kinds of tosh. But on a single clear issue.

Clear and overwhelming direction was given.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

If it was clear with a definition of what leave meant, we would have left by now. It was ambiguous which led the Conservative Party to negotiate internally for two years before even negotiating with the EU.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

So it’s not the biggest mandate, except where you redefine it to remove larger mandates for arbitrary reasons?

Very Brexit. We’ve had enough of experts.

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

But from your link
Not all people registered to vote were eligible to vote in the referendum.
FullFact (or should that be Not Quite Full Fact

Link

That changes the 72% turnout figure quite a bit.

Different elections/votes often have different eligibility criteria. EG Local elections vs election of MP.

Compare all this with the less than 7,000 in favour of a Welsh Assembly, with 50.3% vs 49.7% split, on a 50.1% turnout. Not exactly overwhelming.
Link

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

And could you image the outrage if Cameron prorogued Parliament to push through joining the Euro and becoming part of the Schengen Area, stating "it was in or out, you knew what you were voting for"?

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

How many times does it need to be explained? A definition of what Leave “ meant” was not asked for and therefore not required. What Leave “ means” is subjective, obviously.

But “leave” itself is not subjective. Which is what Johnson is saying.

We leave, no matter what, no matter what way.


Ball cocks......there is nothing ambiguous about the question on the ballot sheet.

Politicians have subsequently tried very hard and successfully to make it and ambiguous, but the question was yes or no, nothing ambiguous about that.

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

Sorry, do those words make a point in your head?

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:33 ----------

Yes, but we have to imagine that, as it hasn’t happened........................

Re: PM Boris forms a government
 

Voting against "Remain" was unambiguous and clear cut. People voted "No" to Remain. "Leave" was based upon core principles. The "Remain" side want to overturn each and every one of them. Whichever of one or more of those core principles a "leave" voter based their decision is aimed at being overturned. Therefore 100% of the Leave vote is trying to be overturned.