Re: Brexit
 

l am pretty sure all of us will be glad when the day comes where Brexit will not be mentioned much anymore and nobody is posting in this thread anymore and we can all start to air our thoughts about some other subject other then Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

Nah! It will be like 1966, who ever wins will replay the whole contest blow by boring blow. How they were down and nearly out when some "substitute" rises from the benches and leads us to glorious victory. Films will be made about it. The losers will have their stories as well, endless papers on how things could be better if only.

Re: Brexit
 

Having people who decide these things being completely burnt out and under an acute degree of stress is probably not best for the country.

Re: Brexit
 

Of course but I have zero sympathy for MPs.

Re: Brexit
 

I, for once, agree with Mick here. MPs and Government have collectively failed to deliver one way or the other and insist on kicking the can down the road. I also doubt many of them are heavily involved other than their votes at the end of the day.

If MPs want a referendum they should vote for it (however directed by Corbyn). If they want to back May’s deal because it’s the best on offer they should do that too.

Re: Brexit
 

I think we on the outside can easily underestimate the stress MPs are under, they are only human in the end. As well as these stressful decisions on Brexit they're having to deal with splits within their parties where they're falling out with friends, some of them are getting death threats, they're having panic alarms installed, they're away from their families, these votes run late into the night all whilst there has been a constant ticking clock hanging over them of these deadlines.

It's a pressure cooker at the moment so it can't hurt for a time out.

Re: Brexit
 

l agree it is stressful and a break will do them all good but l dare say there are millions out there under even more stress trying to make ends meet on a constant basis.

Re: Brexit
 

I recommend listening to this podcast: https://play.acast.com/s/timesredbox...imandworsening

For all the MPs who are using this for their own personal careers and egos the majority of them are mere backbenchers dealing with all of this.

Re: Brexit
 

I don't think parliament has ever seen a bigger prat than him and that's saying something with bozo and Corbyn sat there, every time that berk opens his mouth he damages the leave cause

I'd disagree if I thought the delay would change anything but it'll be ground hog day in six months time and I also agree that leave would win again, with a bigger margin to probably

Re: Brexit
 

the WA aint gonna change one bit EU said that million times it got us out of CU SM and ECJ isn't that what leavers wanted you gonna get much softer Brexit now or a no Brexit at all so would you rather have that than leave

Re: Brexit
 

The WA simply extends the CU, SM, ECJ until end Dec 2020. After that the CU would still be in place unless the EU through the kindness of its heart, let's us leave over the NI border issue.

Re: Brexit
 

that's to make sure in law the good Friday agreement aint broke which the UK signed and is international law

Re: Brexit
 

It should be pointed out to the EU, that if we leave without any transitional arrangements(ie the WA), then it is no different to the WA ending without alternative arrangement in Dec 2020. So what are the EU complaining about? If the backstop hadn't been there in the WA in the first place, it would have got through Parliament.

Re: Brexit
 

Surely the EU's proposal was that the Withdrawal Agreement doesn't end in NI unless the replacement arrangements lead to no border honouring the Good Friday Agreement aka the backstop.

Re: Brexit
 

See the quoted section in post #1511. That is the "backstop".

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Six more months of the same circular arguments.

I’m not coming back on here until the status quo has changed and there’s actually something new to discuss.

Re: Brexit
 

Don't be daft, where would you go for the next 17 years :D

Re: Brexit
 

We could easily have been out of the EU by now if the ERG hadn't gambled on a no-deal Brexit. Looking for others to blame than yourself is human nature for some; Rees-Mogg should man up and apologise to the nation. Ironically, he's the best friend of Remain due to his poor judgment and Macron is the best friend of Leave due to his desire for a short extension!

Re: Brexit
 

Democracy - having 3* General Elections in under 5 years, because circumstances have changed, and the voting public have the right to change their mind.

Not Democracy - having 2 Referendums in under 3 years, because circumstances have changed, and the voting public have the right to change their mind.

*it’s highly likely we will have a GE within the next year.

Re: Brexit
 

The poor chap at work who is in overall charge of our companies Brexit preparations from the commercial side of things is a happy boy today - he now can have a well deserved holiday and come back to his normal job for a little while.

Our work was pretty much ready - all the IT systems were tested and ready to run, a select number of customer service people were trained, couriers set up and new legal entities created. Does anyone want to rent some warehouse space? We have ambient and temperature controlled space going spare now:handshake

Re: Brexit
 

I only brought it up to pay homage to our beloved Seph. The first person is ever heard use the word perfidious.

Re: Brexit
 

I’m inclined to propose, and I’m not sure who would all agree, to propose a truce of sorts.

Many of us disagree and I think we’d accept won’t. So could just accept that fact without going round and round.

Re: Brexit
 

Well, you could say that, but at least he was attempting to deliver Brexit without having one or more feet in the EU.

It's the remainers who should be ashamed of themselves because they were trying to undermine the result of the referendum, and also the mandate of their own political parties in the case of Conservative and Labour remainers.

It's no good blaming the wrong people for this mess. It's the remainers who have voted against Brexit that have no scruples.

Re: Brexit
 

Utter nonsense, but, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Many pro Brexit MP's voted against TM's deal because in their eyes it kept us at risk of being tied to the EU for an indefinite period of time.

Re: Brexit
 

That makes no sense. You're saying it's alright for Leaver MPs to vote against Theresa May's deal but not Remainer MPs?

Re: Brexit
 

wrong again OB it the brexiteers that voted against Brexit we would have been out by now if they hadn't as said before gonna be a softer Brexit now or no Brexit at all would brexiteer mps that voted against Brexit want that instead of leaving

Re: Brexit
 

He is not wrong, actually. May’s deal. It’s not actually Brexit. Something I keep pointing out to you.

And Um, are you conveniently forgetting a whole wrath of Remain MPs also voted to reject May’s deal, (that’s not actually Brexit). ?

Re: Brexit
 

This is getting all rather circular. There's no doubt that May's deal is Brexit - just ask any lawyer. Repeating that it's not Brexit doesn't alter the facts.
Of course, it may not feel like Brexit to you and you may desire a no-deal Brexit but that's a different matter.

Re: Brexit
 

That's the one of the many problems with Brexit, one person's Brexit is not another's, and why the whole process is flawed. Its also why we need a confirmatory vote when we know exactly what the country is being signed up to (if MPs ever decide...).

Re: Brexit
 

A big if as she might have kicked the can down the road for 6 months but whether MP's can decide by then is another matter in itself as both main parties are permanently stuck in a perpetual ongoing civil war over Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

I know they did. I did not say otherwise, did I? The Brexiteers who voted against did so to deliver on the referendum. It was the remainers voting against their parties' own mandates to deliver on Brexit in line with the referendum that ensured a lack of a majority in Parliament in betrayal of what the electorate actually wanted..

---------- Post added at 13:53 ---------- Previous post was at 13:50 ----------

Yes, because the leavers who voted against May's deal voted for a no-deal Brexit, whereas the remainers voted against to stop Brexit.

---------- Post added at 13:55 ---------- Previous post was at 13:53 ----------

I am not wrong, you just didn't understand the point I was making. The Brexiteers voting against May's deal were not trying to stop Brexit. The remainers were, and if they hadn't done so, May's deal would have got through.

---------- Post added at 13:56 ---------- Previous post was at 13:55 ----------

No, we don't. The people who want another referendum want 'remain' to be an option, and there you have it. It is just a ruse to deny the electorate what they voted for.

Re: Brexit
 

I think that the forthcoming European Elections will be used as a de facto second referendum.

If leavers vote for Farage & UKIP in enough numbers and they become elected, that will really put the cat amongst the pigeons regarding our extension agreement to behave reasonably at EU meetings.

Re: Brexit
 

Highly unlikely l would say as one suspects there will be as usual a pretty poor voter turnout like there has been since 1979.

http://www.ukpolitical.info/european...on-turnout.htm

Re: Brexit
 

It's the same people who don't vote in EU elections that complain about unelected Eurocrats, go figure :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 15:00 ---------- Previous post was at 14:51 ----------

And we know why Brexiteers are petrified of another vote ....
The electorate are allowed to change their mind like they do at every GE. It'll be over 3 years since the vote come October, and folks are now very well informed. In the words of David Davis 'if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy...'
If they haven't, fair enough.

Re: Brexit
 

Who in their right mind would take a single word David Davis says seriously, the man has proved himself a half witted charlatan repeatedly with his brexit proclamations, I'd rather not take lectures on democracy from him thanks very much

Re: Brexit
 

The thing about supranational organisations like the EU, is that you CAN'T change your mind.


If in the 2016 referendum there had been a 3rd option of remaining in a Customs Union, which "side" would have chosen that in the greater numbers? Can be no doubt it would have been the Remain side. As such, a customs union is very much a Remain policy.

Re: Brexit
 

Even his employer doesn’t take anything Boris says seriously.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson

Re: Brexit
 

It is usually a low turnout, but such is public feeling on both sides, I really do think that it will be a de facto rerun of the referendum and that turnout will be higher than usual.

Farage has launched his new party and I can see them (and to a lesser extent UKIP) picking up a lot of leave votes.

Re: Brexit
 

Sorry Richard the turnout will be near enough the same as usual l suspect.

Re: Brexit
 

It’s usually around 36% (+/- 2%), except in 1999, when it was 24%.

Re: Brexit
 

Now UKIP is associating itself with the ex-EDL founder Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, it runs the real risk of being labelled the "racists" party. In spite of this association, it will probably garner a not inconsiderable number of votes highlighting just how many people in this country are happy to be associated with racism and xenophobia.

The more fair minded will probably jump ship to the Brexit party where Mr Farage is fighting against the Elite with the help of Jacob Rees-Mogg's sister and sundry members of the proletariat ..

Re: Brexit
 

If people feel as strongly as it's suggested about Brexit, in favour of both sides, then I think it must have some consequence on the turnout for the EU elections. If the People's Vote campaign (aka the Liberal Democrats) try to push it as a 'vote for a second referendum' then it has to have some impact. If Farage is on the other side saying its the only way to save Brexit then the same is true in that case.

Re: Brexit
 

What people feel and what people do are two different sides of a coin...

Re: Brexit
 

Farage is a totally obnoxious individual who has done more damage to the UK with his self serving tirades against the EU than anyone else and still has the audacity to collect a salary from the EU.

His last attempt at garnishing support left him going home on a bus, which to my mind shows how little support his beliefs have and does not deserve the level of exposure he gets.

Re: Brexit
 

I think that after 33 million people voted in the referendum, 6 million people signed the revoke petition and one million people marched in London in favour of remain there's got to be at least some in there who wouldn't ordinarily vote in EU elections who now will.

I'm not expecting turnout to go through the roof, but it could easily be 5-10% higher than the norm.

Re: Brexit
 

Well tomorrow I'll be making the journey into London to join the protesters in Parliment Square.

This is a first.

I must say that the Brexit betryal by parliment has made me ve politically motivated, so much so I'm thinking of putting my name down as a Brexit canditate.

Re: Brexit
 

Oh I don't know I quite li.... No, you're right, he's a self serving t*sser. A man of the people, not.

Re: Brexit
 

:clap:

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

A Rees-Mogg fighting against the elite? They ARE the elite.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

"This is Brexit at its best!" proudly boasts one protestor! Five pro-Brexit protestors blockade an Aldi depot as it's a German company.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...-five-16115000

Re: Brexit
 

his poster sure was like on day Jo Cox got murdered

Re: Brexit
 

Hope you've got your £5k deposit handy, Nigel won't be paying !

Re: Brexit
 

Me, for one.

---------- Post added at 20:14 ---------- Previous post was at 20:12 ----------

There is no correlation between the two, to draw one is in very poor taste. Very poor.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

Farage is an excellent orator, handles himself much better than many MPs, and he will carry support.

I think he is essential to the debate.

Re: Brexit
 

Farage is just an advanced troll. He knows exactly the right thing to say to make people react but to have an excuse. Like when he said the referendum happened without a bullet being fired knowing it would get under the skin of Remain/Lefties/Liberals after the Jo Cox incident or today when he said put the fear of god into MPs or when he said people with AIDs are coming over here. It gets headlines and he says 'what I clearly meant was....'

People on the other side of the argument need to stop falling for it. Politics seems too much like people trolling each other for reactions. Same with obsessing over how a commodities trader who was given a job by his dad before becoming a career politician is anti-establishment, people don't care who he is but what he represents.

Re: Brexit
 

What's the best way to beat him?

Re: Brexit
 

So was a certain WW1 German Corporal and look at the "trouble" he caused.

Re: Brexit
 

You're absolutely correct but brace yourself for comments from the Godwins Law brigade.

Re: Brexit
 

Garner = to acquire.
Garnish = salad.

Re: Brexit
 

You forgot the legal definitiion Chris.It doesn't fit either.:D

Law
a. To seize (property such as wages) by garnishment.
b. To serve (someone) with papers announcing the garnishment of that person's property in order to satisfy a debt.

Re: Brexit
 

Any comparison with Adolf, is again in poor taste, incorrect and doesn’t help you.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Farage is more Oswald Mosley.

Re: Brexit
 

Personally l cannot stick Nigel Farage but he is what l would describe as a populist politician who thrives on being on the side of the underdog of the British political scene..

Re: Brexit
 

Agreed - didn't Adolph want a European super stake (of sorts)? Don't feel you can say that about about Nige ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Well Churchill wanted a United States of Europe....

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

... which he didn’t see the UK being a part of.

Re: Brexit
 

Farage is not popular. There is a reason the official Leave campaign didn't want to use him and why he has failed to be elected 6/7 times. He has some loyal support spread out thinly across the country.

He has represented relatively popular positions though and even if the supporters of those positions think it is a poor cheerleader for them he has often been the only outlet for them. There were plenty of Leave supporters who has distain for Farage's dog whistling xenophobia but UKIP were the only option if the matter of the EU was their main political concern. Just as Corbyn isn't popular but is the only option for many who want higher taxation, higher public spending and to end benefit cuts.

I don't really think he needs to be 'beaten', it's just a matter of continuing to argue against those positions and to not get drawn into Farage's ego-trip whilst doing so.

Re: Brexit
 

On the contrary, Farage is popular. He’s just not quite popular enough to win a first past the post Westminster election. He is also marmite ... relatively few people are ambivalent towards him. It’s love or hate. There was no way he could ever win over the soft middle ground in the referendum. That was down to Boris, with his appeal further broadened by a couple of accessible Labour leavers like Gisela Stuart and Frank Field. Yet it’s fairly clear there was, at some level, an understanding that the official leave campaign would leave Farage alone to do dog whistle campaigning among those who do like him.

The EU elections are proportional, but given the number of seats available the proportionality is only rough and smaller parties can still lose out. So a lot will depend on how far the Leave vote splits between The Brexit Party (Farage) and UKIP (now infested with BNP and EDL entryists and other assorted nut jobs).

The Brexit Party wouldn’t stand a chance with anyone else in charge but with Farage front and centre, his appeal to the bulk of the Brexit-minded electorate shouldn’t be underestimated.

Re: Brexit
 

My votes will go to the party that stands on decent principles, and does not bring race in to the mix. While UKIP had some policies like this under Farage, I could never vote UKIP, and certainly not now under it’s shift to far right.

The Brexit Party will get my votes. I don’t hate Farage. Not always agreed with him.

But with my vote, along with many others, I want to send a clear message to the Brexit blockers in parliament. That us Brexiteers, will not just sit back and allow the biggest democratic vote in history to be ignored. The UK democratically decided to leave the European Union and leave we must. The country does not need to be in the EU to trade, the membership is a con job. So if voting for another political party gets the job of leaving done, then so be it.

I’m pretty sure other passionate leavers will do the same, Remainers are in for a rude awakening, if they think us Brexiteers will just accept this disgusting ignorance to a Democratic decision and move on.

And already, early voting intensions show Brexit Party will do very well in European elections. Heavily beating Liberal Democrat’s, Green Party and the ChUkers. Who are all Anti-Brexit. This highlighting that Britain has not changed it’s mind on leaving the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

This time, though, it's different. Many voters tend to stick fairly consistently with one party. If an EU election takes place here, an angry public is likely to ditch their normal loyalties and vote for the Brexit Party. That will be an unmistakeable message to Parliament to stop fiddling around and get on with the job of leaving.

Re: Brexit
 

EU Parliament voting intention (10-11 April)

Lab - 24%
Con - 16%
Brexit Party- 15%
UKIP - 14%
Lib Dem - 8%
Green - 8%
Change UK - 7%
SNP/Plaid - 6%
Other - 1%

Yougov.

Re: Brexit
 

So the most popular party is the one with the vaguest Brexit policy!

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 32% (+1)
CON: 28% (-4)
LDEM: 11% (-1)
BREX: 8% (+3)
UKIP: 6% (-1)
CHUK: 3% (+3)
GRN: 3% (-1)

via
@YouGov
, 10 - 11 Apr
Chgs. w/ 03 Apr

Re: Brexit
 

Interesting to see which party will be the most unhappy come polling night.

Re: Brexit
 

The European elections could focus the mind of the Conservative party to deliver Brexit under May’s deal.

I think we all agree politicians are generally self-serving, and she’s probably closer to getting it through than the arithmetic suggests.

Re: Brexit
 

The one that wins and has to deal with the mess? ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

I don't - I think a (reasonably sized) minority may be, but that the majority of politicians get into politics because they want improve things for people and the country, but we sometimes differ (due to our outlook) because their thoughts on what would improve things may not be the same as ours.

I've known quite a few MPs, and most of them worked long hours (through the week and weekends), and often didn't see much of their families.

Re: Brexit
 

Okay I shouldn't have made such a sweeping generalisation. I think enough are that at risk Tories from a Brexit party and at risk Labour MPs in majority leave voting constituencies.

I don't think that the Rees-Moggs, Redwoods, Johnsons, Goves, Raabs of this world are in politics to make the world a better place. All of them are independently wealthy and on the payroll of think-tanks, newspapers, etc. Johnson himself described the £100 000 financial interest in a flat he has as "chicken feed" - one can only assume he thinks the same of his backbench MP salary?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

The register of members interests will show that, all of those I've named, make far more from outside activity than they do from being an MP. I don't think that's an astonishing accusation in any way. It's a matter of public record.

Being a rational capitalist that I am if I had two jobs and one paid me four times the other, regardless of time commitment required, I know which I'd have more 'focus' on when it came to legislating on economic matters.

Re: Brexit
 

Bet you can't find that quote.

Re: Brexit
 

Near the bottom of the article is the quote he made pip.;)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...m-mansion.html

Re: Brexit
 

I do stand corrected, it's not the £100 000 interest in a flat that is chicken feed but a £250 000 a year salary!

Re: Brexit
 

I guess John Redwood's seat may be at risk in the case of a general election then due to his pro-Brexit stance being at odds with those of his constituents'.

Re: Brexit
 

Corbyn could be elected for the same reasons Brexit won. A group of people feel the problems they have are being ignored and will vote for someone that they feel is speaking to them.

The Tories inability to do anything about homes for example is going to really hurt them in the end. They keep avoiding any real change because they don't want to upset their voter base by doing anything that might stop the inflation in house prices but their voter base is getting older and older.

Re: Brexit
 

Housing costs underpins everything for the poor in society, both in work and out of work. If they could resolve this it'd significantly reduce benefit expenditure.

Re: Brexit
 

What's with the word police? We all knew what the post meant. Maybe he should have used an obscure french word instead :)

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 16:59 ----------

A contradiction surely.

He 1) doesn't support his constituents (against Remain), 2) he doesn't support his country (for Hard Brexit) and 3) he does not support his party (voted against Mrs May)

Apart from this, he is a great MP ...

Re: Brexit
 

Chris after your kind words on my post can you help GrimUpNorth with his sentence?

Re: Brexit
 

Stake = tent peg
State = territory, defined politically

Re: Brexit
 

Going to have to update your profile moniker of Trollsplatter to Wordsmith :):)

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Well if all these are already millionaires then surely they haven’t gone into politics for the money, they must be doing it for the altruism of civic duty?

In regards to wealthy MPs, I doubt you’ll find many from any party that are on the bread line.

Re: Brexit
 

I think there is a general unawareness of the Brexit Party, and once we have had the election campaign, a lot of UKIP voters will come across to Farage's party.

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

Yes, because the Brexit vote will be divided between the Conservatives, Brexit and UKIP..

I would have thought the leavers in the Labour Party would also move over to the Brexit Party. They would find that more attractive than the extreme right wing UKIP bunch. So expect to see the Labour voting intentions to diminish.

Re: Brexit
 

There's nothing altruistic about austerity.

More like it's to be paid for their influence, raise their profiles for speaking, consultancy, boardroom positions in the future.

I'm not saying it's unique to the Conservative Party either.

Re: Brexit
 

On the contrary, Nige was the only reason many people voted UKIP last time. Had it not been for the toxicity of UKIP with its fanatical base, many more would have voted for them.

Nige has recognised this and formed his very own party. You have grossly underestimated Nigel Farage's popularity, but then again you are a remainer and presumably mix socially with remainers.

---------- Post added at 19:43 ---------- Previous post was at 19:34 ----------

I agree with that, Hugh. People really don't understand how much work MPs have to get through and what their motives are. The vast majority are motivated with a desire to serve their constituents and to make a difference.

It is undeniable that MPs have very little time to spend with their families, such is their dedication. To call them 'self-serving' is very unfair.

It is easy enough for 'Gogglebox' contenders to sit on their sofas eating pizzas and criticising. If they truly disapprove, they should get off their butts, put themselves forward as candidates, and have the courage of their convictions.

---------- Post added at 19:46 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

Of course they want to make the world a better place! They want to make the country more prosperous (which is the way you fund public services sustainably), and being businessmen, they can see how this can be done.

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

What are you on about? So Labour's record on housing between 1997 and 2010 was anything to shout about?

There is a huge house building programme currently taking place. Villages are turning into towns in the Thames Valley!.

This will reduce house prices to much more sustainable levels. Unfortunately, this does take time, but at least this Government is trying.

Re: Brexit
 

More money in the hands of the few is not equal to making the country a better place. It’s only the way public services are funded if income and profits are effectively (and progressively) taxed. Something we know it isn’t.

Re: Brexit
 

He has a big enough majority to sustain his position against those who voted for him before who don't really understand his stance on Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

I was there to day outside Parliament Square.

The were stopping several groups merging.

---------- Post added at 19:56 ---------- Previous post was at 19:54 ----------

There is talk that Anna Sourbitch, and two other MPs are going to try and make a law banning negative comments against MPs.

if you can't handle the heat, I'm sure a shelf stacking job awaits