Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Bit of a wake-up call here from the IMF on the UK's finances.
https://www.ft.com/content/3ee09db6-...6-b9069bde0956

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Expect the response. Experts! IMF! What do they know? ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You'd better not vote Labour, then, if these figures worry you!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But l don't give a diddly squat about Labour as we are talking about the incumbent government who have had plenty of time to sort things out but alas you come out with your usual predictable default Theresa May waving response to anybody who is critical of HMG as they are the government now end of..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think I've done more than enough to explain my position on this, Den - it will get very boring if I have to keep saying the same things to justify my arguments.

However, it is relevant to look at what Labour did before and what it would do under Corbyn. Our economic position is complex to deal with, but it would be in a much worse state under Corbyn. We have seen some of his spending plans and they are absolutely mind boggling. If he went through with these under a Labour Government, he would create a situation where today's figures look like Utopia.

Of course the figures are bad - there was this banking crisis, you see, and Labour had no money put by in case of an emergency. Gordon Brown spent all the reserves on a massive spending spree so when the credit crunch came, there was no money to spare.

It fell to the Conservatives, with no money left, hampered in what they could do with the Lib Dems in coalition, to sort that mess out. They could have done it more quickly of course, but that would have increased austerity. That does not appear to be what you and many others like you would have wanted.

Those people who argue we should have borrowed even more in a vain attempt to put a sticking plaster over the nation's finances should not be allowed credit cards of their own.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

They do worry me but I don't take a partisan view on proceedings. It's interesting that the IMF seems to lay some of the blame at the UK selling off the family silver through privatisation so we have nothing for the bad times.
A bit like companies like MG Rover who sold off their land and IP to pay the day-to-day bills but eventually had no assets left to sell. Those privatisation sales were Conservative not Labour policies.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Isn't that a rather strange argument? If we sell, we are making money, which can be used to pay off debt. We pay it at that point to reduce the interest we are paying on the debt. If we sell it later rather than earlier, we are in a worse position because of all the additional interest we have paid.

It is also worth mentioning that privatised companies generally make more money than nationalised ones, and the government reaps the benefit of the increased profits made through taxation. The eastern rail franchise was a remarkable exception to that general principle.

As an aside, and before anyone else points this out, some contracts for services and the resulting franchises have been extremely badly managed, resulting in collapses and poor levels of service in some areas. Lessons must be learned from this in the future, because each collapse and each evidence of poor service brings the system into disrepute, despite the benefits that can be seen in those areas that are managed properly.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Neither Labour or the Conservatives look at finance properly. What should happen is during the good times, taxes should go up and be invested for the bad times, so that taxes can be cut to help people in the lean times.

Instead, taxes are cut when people have spare, and raised when people are short.

Meanwhile, how many years should a government be in power before they stop blaming their predecessors?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

:tu:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Depends on how long it takes to reverse the damage of a mismanaged economy etc.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No one seemed to be sufficiently convinced that the Tories were the best party for the job at the last election, but then unstable governments are what is likely with our electoral system and devolved parliaments with parochial political parties.

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You can always get into politics and and try to change it with the help of like minded people if there are enough of them.

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Indeed how long out of power does a government have to be.

As we all know the mantra 30+ years on is still "It's all Thatchers Fault"

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

:rofl: Been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt.

When even local political groups replace the good councillors who stray from the party line and actually represent their ward, there is neither the money or the will to change anything. In addition, how can anyone change the system when the party currently in power is only delaying reducing the number of MPs (and making their hold on government stronger in the process) because the DUP are holding a gun to their heads.

Until the Conservatives support a decent PR electoral system, nothing will change, their sheep are sufficient in number to prevent them needing to.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You are right to a degree, but at least the Conservatives put some of the spare money away. Labour just tend to blow it all.

---------- Post added at 19:28 ---------- Previous post was at 19:26 ----------

It's hard enough to make decisions now! PR will just make it harder, as a permanent arrangement.

If you want a strong government that is able to make decisions, don't vote for proportional representation!

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------

Quite clearly, the financial mess, and the austerity measures that were needed to sort that out, was down to Labour.

So yes, 8 years down the line, if Labour think they cannot be blamed for our current situation, they'd better think again!

[/COLOR]

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The financial mess was created by the capitalist banks for being greedy and totally inept. If Labour had not bailed out the banks I wonder what the situation or outcome would be today? probably an even worst recession then we have had for the past decade.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Strong and stable in some people's books. Coalition of chaos in others.
https://www.ft.com/content/30fbcb64-...5-24ad351828ab

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Odd how the most stable governments have proper PR, with economies that do not lurch from one direction to another.

PR makes politicians listen, it makes them compromise, it makes them plan for more than the next 5 years. It helps people engage with politics and it makes people feel their votes matter.

As a conservative supporter, the current system suits you down to the ground. It means a minority always gets to dictate to the majority.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

tbf its been both the main parties that have opposed PR, for their own reasons obviously.

The current system does render most peoples votes pointless, if they live in a strong Labour/Tory seat, Your vote only really counts if you're in one of the few swing seats, not great for democracy or encouraging more to vote. But it'll never change because people will do what the main parties/media barons tell them.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I like how some "Remainers" in this thread are discussing voting processes and democracy itself - but totally negating the possibility that if Brexit is not enacted, as per a real democratic process, that they think people will be jolly and carry on and vote as normal. LOL Give me a break, you're living in cloud cuckoo land!!!

You just don't get it - democracy will be dead in Britain, if and as when Brexit is not enacted.

I sure as hell will never vote again - democracy will be dead to me, all thanks to selfish dummy spitters who lost their campaign to stay in the EU in 2016 and foolishly believe we need the EU when we seriously do not.

So please, stop going on about Democracy like you care about it. :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The Brexit outcome will be a fudge so I suspect the stronger advocates on either side won't be happy but the world will carry on and the British voting system won't alter.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The voting system in Britain will die if Brexit is not enacted, all those millions who voted for it and it won by a massive majority of over a million people and it is stopped by those trying to keep us in a corrupt union. This will kill democracy because, through the hearts and minds of the leave voters, there is no point in voting because we clearly live in a dictatorship.

You are clearly misguided if you think everything will be rosy in a scenario where Brexit is not fulfilled.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Brexit is really starting to sound like some sort of fundamentalist religion. Trouble is, the believers have just started look into the abyss and can't turn back ....

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes, I'm sure the Germans found the recent political negotiations to form a coalition riveting.

As for your strange view that our system benefits conservatives as you suggest, perhaps you could explain 1997-2010. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 10:53 ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 ----------

No, it's very straight forward, actually. The people were asked - should we stay or should we go? The people said go. So we go.

I'm struggling to understand why some people find this such a difficult concept to grasp.

There is no abyss - only opportunity.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Please don't - it was depressing living in those times. 13 Years of hell and we're still living it, paying back all the money Labour paid out - when they bankrupted the country.

It's a vicious cycle, Labour hand out money, they cannot afford - the Tories try claw it all back through drastic Austerity.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes, and once they've balanced the books, the electorate seem to think it's safe to vote Labour again!

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Errr, the greedy 'bankers' and the worldwide economic crisis might have had some part....

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Nobody is saying otherwise. But Labour did not put money in the balances to pay towards it. That's the issue.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Neither did the Conservatives. That's the issue too.

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Err nothing.

No, it was Labour. Fact.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Think you need to tell Theresa OB, as she doesn't seem to grasp your concept.
Staying in the customs union is basically staying in the EU (with no say on anything). Some opportunity !

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The 2008 crash took most people by surprise. There was little warning from senior politicians about the risk of consumer debt pre-2008 and even amongst those cautious about the economy thought it would be China, not American mortgages, from where the crisis would originate.

In fact a year before the crash the Tories were promising to match Labour's spending: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6975536.stm

Labour obviously have a lot of answer for both for the deficit at the time of the crash and a lack of regulation but neither of these were issues the Tories were warning about or prepared for. The partisan kool-aid people drink because they think in binary, red vs blue, terms is absurd.

---------- Post added at 11:22 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

This is obviously not true. The 2008 crash was caused by the near-collapse of the banking system, largely in the US Mortgage industry, which is why it hit around the world and not just the UK.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Back to the present moment.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8580471.html

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The banking crash in this country was due to the lack of regulation of the banks by the government in power. The US sub-prime mortage funding was a disaster waiting to happen and it did. For the ordinary working man it would have been better if the stupid banks had been allowed to go bust rather than a bail out. It would have certainly cost less. As always though those that had more money prevailed to protect their investment.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's a bit hypothetical I think. You could also argue that given what was to come that in hindsight Lenham should have not been allowed to fail.

I don't think they could have let the banks fail. There are too integrated into the financial system and the dominos would have continued to fall into businesses that depend on them and ordinary people's savings and accounts.

People forget that in the US, UK and some European nations the immediate impact wasn't as catastrophic as it could have been. The intervention did stem the crisis but as time has gone on the economy has been stagnant as we've failed to ever really move on and the impact has had a long, latent, effect instead. So maybe a short, sharp, shock might have been better. I don't know.

As I said though it was a global thing. Labour are to blame for leaving the economy in a state where the reaction to it was more expensive and for the lack of regulation. That said I think the Conservatives would have gone with the austerity approach, it ideologically suited them as a response, rather than the Obama style stimulus anyway. Successful governments on both sides of the pond are to blame for the lack of regulation.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Do you mean successive rather than successful? :erm:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

bah

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I stand by my assertion that Labour bankrupted our country when they were in power, down to them and the lack of poor banking regulations, remember the note they left the Tories, in the Treasury Dept. in 2010 - "There is no money left."

Gordon Brown sold Gold reserves at rock bottom prices.

I totally and utterly blame them.

Just wait where Corbyn, McDonnell and cannot count Diane Abbott, would leave us with their socialism bollocks, if they ever came to power.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That's a long standing traditional joke note done by every exiting chancellor for their successor.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Every Labour chancellor seems to do it. That's also what greeted Maggie when she came to power. Totally feckless behaviour.

Labour inherit healthy balances from the Conservatives when they come to power and leave nothing when they depart.

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 ----------

Well, if Gordon Brown hadn't monetised and spent our gold reserves, it might have been a different story.

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------

It is, and we won't.

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------

I think you need to explain that, Andrew. Tony Blair inherited a sound economy, and with gold reserves which Gordon Brown soon plundered, together with a raid on pensions. Surely, you haven't forgotten...:shocked:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I will leave you with this .

Politicians not listening to the people continues to cause problems. People are still being told to shut up and go away. The current FPTP is the problem. The Brexit result argument is just one of the symptoms.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

A symptom of what? I thought Brexit was the electorate's verdict. You seem to be a little mixed up here, old bean.

The government has listened and is trying to get the best Brexit deal it can. It is the remainers who don't accept the referendum result who are not listening to the majority who voted.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I find it humorous that a lot of (not all) remainers advocate for PR yet are trying to overturn a referendum result that was based on PR.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Their stance betrays their lack of democratic principles. They just want their own way.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Brexit was the result of the government not really listening to the electorate. People voted to leave as much in protest at the government as any other reason, despite the total leave assumption by those who took the voting options at face value. May compounded this with a bizarre set of manifesto pledges which ended up leaving them with no clear majority.

I see no further point in trying to change a closed mind regarding our undemocratic electoral system. Disillusionment with the governments we get lumped with will continue.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I like how you speak as if you have knowledge of how/why people wanted to leave the EU.

Clue - you don't.

I have wanted to leave the EU for over a decade, so don't come up with rubbish about Brexit being a scapegoat for crap government and or a protest vote - though I don't doubt there were protest votes, I actually believe people voted for Brexit en-masse, because, um, they actually do want to leave the EU.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No I don't, but then neither do you.

There were a whole load of reasons why people voted to leave. The insistence on this only being the simplistic options given on the ballot paper is and will continue to be the problem.

---------- Post added at 08:48 ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 ----------

@Sephiroth Please explain why genuine PR would not change anything?

What was offered was little different to FPTP, so I m not surprised the majority voted to keep the known undemocratic system rather than switch to a similarly undemocratic electoral system.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

"Europe" doesn’t think alike - the Nordic countries think differently from the Central European countries, who think differently from the Med countries, and even within those areas there are different ways of thinking/approaches.

Conflating “Europe" as one group thinking the same way is a fallacy, and used to support a "us vs them" approach.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No, parliament would reflect the wishes of the voters. Parties would have to negotiate and plan for the longer term, rather than be dogmatic, tunnel visioned and out of touch with the electorate.

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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

FPTP only works with a binary choice. Parliament has not had the support of the majority of voters since 1935 - apart from 2010 when we had the Con/Lib coalition, which despite people disapproving at least the majority supported the coalition in terms of votes.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It is paralysed because it does not have the support of the majority of the population. In reality around 36% of the votes made any impact on the result. PR forces coalitions with majority support of the voters.

Voters are not buying into the Tory or Labour manifesto pledges in sufficient numbers for them to do the job unhindered. As the Libs got burned last time by little more than lip service coalition, they are not going to jump in again without a decent negotiation and guarantees, neither of which May was prepared to offer. Instead of which, a party no one on the mainland can vote for, is holding the Tories to ransom.

People vote X because it is better than Y, rather than voting for Z whose policies they actually support. PR gives people the choice to vote for what they actually support, rather than the negative voting of the current system.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well, partly correct. However, you may have a coalition which has the support of the majority of the population, but is as weak as the current government because although the numbers add up, every decision has to be put off, diluted or abandoned to get cross party support.

Look at the series of weak governments Italy has had to put up with over the years. We don't want that here.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No it does not have the support of the majority of the population. 43.3% of those who voted did so for either the Tories or the DUP. 42.4% Tory, 0.9% DUP.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It’s also isn’t 100% true people who voted one way at a point in time would consistently vote the same way again...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Don't be surprised if that is what we get for the couple of fixed terms unless a Thatcher or Blair comes along.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I didn't say it did. Re-read my post.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You are correct. I miss read you.

However, assuming the UK would suddenly become as volatile as Italy, when politics here are less volatile to start with is stretching things to excuse the continuation of FPTP.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I am all for more representative elections, but we need a system that will provide us with strong governments. I have yet to see a completely satisfactory system that I could support.

I do not want to see no clear winners in elections and a constant battle to get anything through the House of Commons. That's what we had with the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition and the present Conservative/DUP coalition.

However, we could have a newly constituted House of Lords elected under PR. As a revising chamber that has the credibility of public consent, the changes it proposes to legislation would be a lot more authoritative than we get from the current unelected, mainly clapped out bunch we have in there now.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Why do we need clear winners elected by a minority? What makes that either strong or stable? All it produces is parties ignoring the majority simply because they have hit that magic number of seats in parliament. They don't have to listen to or appeal to the majority, just sway the voters in marginal constituencies. Most seats just do not matter.

Consensus governments have to plan long term, minority parties can get votes/MPs which make the ruling coalition aware of problems, rather than riding roughshod over the electorate because they can easily ignore dissent.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

[Edit]

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Don't forget that most Governments also attempt to redefine the constituency boundaries to make them "fairer" which strangely ends up with the chance of a few more seats for the incumbent administration.

---------- Post added at 15:00 ---------- Previous post was at 14:51 ----------

You are falling, perhaps deliberately, into the trap of presenting extreme examples of the scenario you wish to attack.

You forget that there is a spectrum of choice between what we have now and the failed Italian administrations I think you're referring to.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

As the EU Referendum is a true representation of PR in action it seems as though those advocating for it will never be pleased.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No the referendum was a binary choice. Had it been PR there would have been more options to choose from.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The point Pip was making was that even when you have a democratic choice ensuring that you can implement what it was the majority voted for, people still think it's unfair for one reason or another, particularly if the result is not to their liking.

Your post demonstrates that.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Still not PR, just a binary choice for which the majority of people who voted chose leave. Large parts of the country voted differently. What May is trying to do is get the majority of people an agreement they can live with. Which includes appeasing remain supporters, who are still a significant part of the population.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Oh dear.

PR: the clue is in the name:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

PR isn't a referendum, come on. This is getting silly.

The referendum is a still directly democratic system to choose between the given choices and must be respected, it is not 'lesser' than PR, but it just as a matter of fact is not PR.

I get the point. They're both ways of more directly representing what people vote for and it's a valid point but no one need to call it PR.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The EU referendum voting areas were based on the geographic basis of the previous PR referendum, not on the PR principles.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well this is a thoroughly nonsensical diversion.

PR ... the clue is in the name. Proportional Representation. I.E. A vote to elect representatives to a legislature, whose composition by political affiliation broadly reflects the proportion of votes cast.

A referendum is not an election. It does not seek to elect representatives. It is the antithesis of representative democracy, being an exercise in direct democracy - the electorate takes the decision, rather than their representatives in the legislature.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Sorry for the delay in replying but only just picked myself up off the floor. This is the funniest thing I've read since Liam Fox said something about easiest trade deal ever! :D:D:D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

come off fantasy island :D:D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Posts along the lines of "haha we are laughing at you", are childish - this is not a childs playground!!!

How different parts of the country voted is irrelevant.

Also - That's not what ALL Remainers want though is it - they want their losers vote, to stop Brexit, so I'll pass on appeasing the side that lost their campaign in 2016.

And more crucially - That's not how referendums work either - it was one or the other.

Remain or leave - it cannot be a mix of both given only one won the actual vote.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Then we are back to the problem of a simplistic referendum choice for what has since been discovered is a complex separation. Less than half of those who could vote actively chose either option. Added to which we are still being dictated to by a minority, a minority who voted for the Conservatives to deliver Brexit.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's only being made complex by people trying to keep us tied to a corrupted union.

And - you're making the mistake of trying to include the entire populace in your argument.

The 2016 EU Referendum was one of the largest Democratic processes undertaken in modern British History.

Those who were entitled to vote, but didn't because they could not be bothered cannot be included in a total percentage argument. There will never be 100% Turn out. Those who chose not to vote, cannot complain after, if they did not agree with the Democratic decision.

A section of the populace are Children, who are quite rightly, not eligible to vote.

There was a snap election almost a year after the referendum. Voters in their millions voted for two parties, who had Manifested their intentions to follow the result of the EU Referendum, some 80% of the total votes cast.

So trying to use misleading statistics to de-legitimise the "Leave" decision, is totally disingenuous and wrong.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The Good Friday Agreement could end up giving Sinn Fein what they want via Brexit by triggering another unification referendum because of hard borders. Potentially losing the DUP as the prop to the government if unification gets majority support. Given how much the Republic is changing politically there is far less to fear in unification, not something the DUP has ever wanted.

PS. I was very careful to point out the lack of majority for either referendum option by "those who were eligible to vote".

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

They also don’t want JRM’s solution of checkpoints like they had during the Troubles...

https://www.statista.com/chart/12012...-irish-border/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Sorry, didn’t realise that this was the Brexit thread.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No need to be sorry - the two often overlap...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The Government is doing nothing but Brexit really. Brexit is all. Brexit is forever.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No .. Diamonds are Forever.

While we are on the subject :)

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/10/8.jpg

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's doing A, B, C
A Austerity
B Brexit
C Climbdowns

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Which needs to stop - One Brexit thread is enough.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Awks.
https://www.ft.com/content/45269dac-...2-7574db66bcd5

Source article - no registration required https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...9Cim-not-going

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Subscription only link.

The gist of the quoted part is unsurprising. Wonder if he will be de-selected by the next election? Seems to be the latest trend by the Tories, only they are much more subtle about it than Labour.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So smarmy Johnny Mercer has got a voice , its just a pity he does not stand up for his constituents more in our part of the world.:rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

https://news.sky.com/story/cabinet-s...overy-11534263

Pretty big resignation as the most powerful civil servant in the country.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Philip Hammond cleverly makes budget generosity conditional on a good deal with the EU.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8607766.html

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Philip Hammond brazenly makes budget threats conditional on a good deal with the EU.

fixed that for you Andrew :D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Methinks a General Election is possibly in the offing next year Andrew.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well, it's about time for one, isn't it Den? It's been a while now. :D
Sky News was commenting that this is quite a left wing budget. Spend and borrow with paying off debt postponed to the next decade. Not what some on here were voiciferously predicting.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Pretty good budget IMO.

I don't think it's evidence of a election, the government is quite weak and doesn't have the security of knowing it will be here in a years time as it would if it had a secure and comfortable majority. They can't risk upsetting their own backbenchers.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The budget should have pleased you then, Andrew. :D