re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think it's fascinating that so many people ( all pals of Dave of course!!) are going out of their way to tell us we should stay in the EU.

The US government and others all seem keen for us to remain a member.

The question I have to ask is this. If the EU is so good how come America has not applied for membership?

Could the reluctance be caused by the fact that US law would be subjugated to EU law?

Or is that the American public are not so keen to pay the VAT which would increase the cost of their purchases?

Maybe it's the fact that as an EU member you may be required to take a sizeable number of unemployed immigrants from fellow EU member states?

Or that the US will have to help by taking in more Syrian migrants?

For the rest of us all this insistence we stay in the EU is just making the case for us to leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Or could it be they are 3000 miles away from Europe?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Surely a minor detail like that wouldn't put them off? LOL!!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I like this game :) So you equate George's analysis of the Brexit economic fallout with "filling out his tax return" .. oh dear ..

(Again) I am just asking about one thing, not everything: do you trust George's ability to make economic decisions affecting the UK economy? Yes or No?

If Yes, you must agree with him on his Brexit analysis

If No, then why is he in No 11!!

Over to you Gary ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think if Jeremy isn't capable of a simple task like getting his tax return in on time, something he does every year, I am concerned about his ability to run the country.

Yes, I do trust his ability to make economic decisions - but I also understand trying to manage a national economy in a world still recovering from the Banking Crisis, the refugee crisis, and fluctuating oil prices, is not as simple as some would like to make out/believe. Economics is not binary, no matter how many times you try to convince everyone it is - there are many conflicting theories and views on the best way forward, and they are based on people's beliefs and experiences; that's why Economics is regarded as a "soft science", rather than a hard one.

I also understand that he believes that Britain is better staying in - I'm still on the fence, but I respect his right to hold that view (just like I respect Boris et al's right to have a different view).

You would like to conflate these things together - I hope you find someone who accepts your viewpoint, but I'm not that person.. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He believes it's better for his PM career path if Britain stays in. Brexit means goodbye George , actually that might just swing my vote...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Although you're right there is no hard science about it does the sheer amount of economists and organisations backing Remain make a difference to you? Or do you think that it might be a case of everyone converging to the perceived 'safe' option rather than risk speaking out?

I can understand why people don't believe the government, that the CBI is only interest in their members, that the IMF simply want to avoid more uncertainty and that the American President is only interested in American-interests but I could keep going on with this list. Even Bill Gates, no fan of the EU after Microsoft's run-ins with them, thinks the benefits outweigh the costs. There are a lot of people here that have to be wrong.

This argument does risk being an appeal to authority rather than a convincing argument by itself but I do find it hard to believe they're all incorrect and Vote Leave are not.

Maybe if Vote Leave were more open that the benefits of sovereignty outweighs the costs but whilst they're saying that we'll do better out of the EU and almost everyone else is saying "No" then they lack credibility.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Maybe some of these people don't give two hoots about the UK and our way of life, what they fear is the repercussions for them and their interests if the UK were to leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Probably little although that doesn't make their insight, or opinion, any less valid. If anything their lack of personal stake in the issue makes their opinion more objective. Certainly Bill Gates is unlikely to suffer any consequences either way. Also it's not just Obama, who might have different motives, it's loads of organisations and economists.

To be honest when there are so many reputable sources saying that this will be a hit for the UK economically and so few disagreeing then I am inclined to believe the former. I'll admit I don't have an advanced understanding of economics so I am swayed by the views of those who do.

I understand why Vote Leave can't concede that issue but I find it hard to believe that they don't know it's their weakest point. Just as immigration and the efficiency of the EU 'machine' is the weakness for Remain.

This referendum reminds me so much of the Scottish one and this time the economy is still the weakest point for the campaign to break from the status-quo. It's more about trade deals than currency but the Yes campaign never countered the currency issue, it was always that they will get a deal with the UK because Scotland is great and anyone who says otherwise is 'doing Scotland down'. Gove pretty much used the 'too wee, too poor' characterization of their opponents' arguments yesterday.

Anyway we're sort of going around in circles here. :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So do you trust his decision about the Brexit economic consequences?

I personally think he has over sold his message so that it may be seen as hyperbole rather than an authoritative economic assessment but he does have a point ..

I am also thinking of replying in future in large red bold font so that everyone can see the message? What do you think?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

More objective? Really? I don't suppose they'd have anything to gain by seeing the UK not being able to compete with them as well as it might. To continue to benefit from our net contribution to their pockets. Other countries have every self serving reason to want us to be shackled to the EU. If you were a member of my club and paying a lot more in subs than anyone else for sweet fa extra in return I'd want you to stay in mate whether I liked you or not.

I know you can't recall it but there really was life before the EU and the UK did rather well for the most part. Those without the UK who have an opinion are probably going to put their interests first rather than ours wouldn't you say? The only people who have anything directly to gain by us leaving is us and as I've stated many times the decision comes down to how much you value sovereignty, our ability to decide our own destiny and all that goes with it. I have confidence that the UK can survive without being part of the EU and do so quite nicely thanks. I also believe that the costs of being in the EU are going to be huge in all sorts of ways and I'd rather we weren't in the club when the wheels finally come off. I value what the UK is and can be far above short term blips in GDP, the value or Sterling etc. and it's perfectly clear to me that the EU is going to impose upon us an ever increasing burden in terms of our contribution, migration and control of our laws, institutions etc. That is their raison d'etre after all. I can see why voting to stay in might be the easier option for some people but IMHO it's the wrong one and over the last few years, the reasons are plain to see across Europe. If things in the EU were tickety boo I could understand why folks might want to stay in but what's been going on in Europe since 2008? Every crisis faced has been handled badly and it's still happening now. How bad does it have to get before people accept that the EU doesn't work and doesn't want to be fixed?...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He has a point and the message is quite valid but the details and how they were stated are utter excrement.

The idea that HMT, unable to predict the economy in 12 months, could make even an approximate prediction on the economy in 14 years is absurd.

The manner in which household income was conflated with GDP is misleading.

Describing us as being worse off when the impact claimed was actually slower growth is misleading.

Taking the estimated 2030 figure and dividing it by our current number of households, 27 million, rather than the anticipated 30 million households predicted to be in the UK at that time is misleading.

Producing figures that rely on ongoing historically high levels of immigration, in direct contradiction of a manifesto pledge, to produce the forecast growth was a mistake.

I find it interesting that the government is so fearful of Brexit that they undermine one of their own manifesto pledges to make the case.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It does make you ponder why the Brexit vote was offered in the first place as patently DC & co are so against. They would have won the election without it in the manifesto ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They weren't expecting a majority.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

bit of an own goal then ...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Could it be that they are not in Europe I wonder?

---------- Post added at 14:02 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------

They probably would have won the election without it but noises were being made and so they had to include it. Noises by people like me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Those who believe staying in is the safer option might want to read this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36090188

It'll all come to a head shortly after our referendum no doubt and club membership might not feel quite so safe... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why don't they predict where the EU will be in 30 years time rather than the doom and gloom as to how worse off the UK will be? how can they predict when they don't know the forecasts for the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's patently obvious that they and the EU haven't got a clue what's going on or when the next crisis will erupt. The prospect of the UK being outside of the EU must truly be petrifying to those who feel remaining part of this circus is 'safer'... :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wouldn't mind seeing the EU's input as to why the UK should remain and show the UK forecasts as to where the EU is heading and what they can do for us. seems be all this time campaigning to stay and the EU hasn't really said much one sided Dave saying I think we should stay well because I have no valid reason other than we are "all in this together"

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Someone on the News from Europe just said Britain leaving would have a minimal effect on their economy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So Obama's treated us to his insight into what we should decide for our country. I suggest we give as much consideration to his words as he and the US would if we dared to tell them the world would be a better place if the US joined some bloated, dysfunctional, central/south American organisation, had a good number of it's laws, trade rules and migration policies determined in Bogota by people committed to a single American state.

Sadly, despite periodically tossing the UK a compliment* about us being their greatest ally blah, blah, blan, Obama is no friend of the UK and his only consideration is what suits the US As such he doesn't have the UK's best interests at heart and we should tell him to mind his own.

* though gritted teeth.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Obama has no right to get involved in the referendum for the simple reason he doesn't give a **** abut the UK. Without Britain in the EU it would be harder for him or any other American President to control through the back door what goes on in Europe. I suggest that anyone on here thinking of voting Stay should think very carefully about this. Obama has said and no other President would "Sign up to the restrictions the EU puts on the UK." So ask yourselves why he is advocating we stay in the EU other than for what's best for the USA? If he wouldn't sign up to those restrictions then why say we should stay under them?

What's next. Should our Politicians get involved and tell then not to elect Trump as President cos of his views? They wouldn't stand for it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly, someone on the leave side should suggest that Obama opens up the USA borders to all the Mexicans, allow virtually unfettered immigration into the country and allow foreign governments to make decisions for the USA. I think I know what his answer would be.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well our Parliament did have a debate on Trump which was basically slagging him off and it's not as if UK politicians don't air their opinions on American politics. Obama is entitled to offer his opinion as President of the United States, a country pretty important in our view of the world. If people are willing to listen is their own business. I suspect the anger of the Brexit camp is they're worried people will. William Hague wrote a good article about it here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...inks-about-br/

I also think that this idea Obama hates the UK is a bit insecure from our side.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Please expand on that, with a timeline as to when and how.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You didn't answer the question.

Why should he tell us to remain when America would never sign up to the EU restrictions? Come on. Remain want to stay, why?

---------- Post added at 15:36 ---------- Previous post was at 14:59 ----------

I don't think he hates the UK he's just a big hypocrite.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You're confusing two different questions: Why should he? (Because he's an ally and a head of state, of course he should express a view) and Why does he want us to remain? (Because it's in America's interest to try to avoid economic and political uncertainty in Europe).

Those of us who want the UK to leave the EU are perfectly entitled to respond by drawing amusing contrasts between the USA's approach to foreign treaties and the approach it is recommending we follow. :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

British Empire ring a bell?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So Obama reckons 'Britain is best when leading a strong EU'. Since when did Britain manage to lead the EU anywhere? When have they ever really listened to any of the reforms the UK supports? I don't think the US would appreciate paying as much as the UK does for the privilege of, increasingly, being told what to do.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron gave the example of Russian sanctions but wasn't the initial common market a British idea?

Anyway I am surprised Obama went as far as he did today. That trade agreement line was pretty bad for Leave. People may resent interference but they'll still hear that line.

---------- Post added at 19:15 ---------- Previous post was at 19:15 ----------

Is that a realistic model for our future? :shocked:

To the ships boys! :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's not a realistic future but it was intended to illustrate to 'Bircho' that we have as a nation, done rather more than just ok before the EU was even thought of.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The game's over guys. Its a done deal, always has been. Although many moan about the EU, they think again when they realise how Brexit will personally affect their own prosperity. The leave 'campaign', if you can call it that, is a divided shambles. The polls are horrendously wrong again, its going to be an embarrassingly large landslide for remain.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And Dave will say something like "The Great British People have spoken...."

We're not Great. we're all a bunch of losers.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I haven't heard the speech in full so is Obama saying the US would happily just sacrifice the trade arrangements it currently has with the UK in the event that we leave?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No. Dave has told him that we are a bunch of idiots and fall for these threats and promises.
but to be fair. Big ears does look a bit uncomfortable talking to us about it. I expect he'll be told to piddle off home soon and to mind his own business.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He didn't refer to whatever existing agreements you're talking about. He was said that the UK would be 'at the back of the queue' when it comes to new trade agreements.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well who cares then? I'd be quite happy with us being at the back of the queue for TTIP. That's what Obama's really worried about.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Because one of the Leave campaign's arguments has been that leaving the EU will free us up to do deals with other nations, America being the largest example. This rather hurts that argument. It also adds to the weight of voices saying that voting Leave will cost you and traditionally voters tend to vote on the economy.

I am surprised at the ferocity of the Governments campaign so far. The last two weeks have been relentless from them. The leaflet, the treasury report, Obama's intervention. Any Tories who thought that Cameron and Osborne weren't really in this fight might be dispelled by now. They're throwing everything and everyone at it. I am not sure Vote Leave expected the onslaught to be quite his heavy, I think they assumed it would be a rather low-key affair. It's going to be hard to see how the Tories reconcile after this.

I wonder if they have anything else planned. It seems they've decided to go all out as early as possible...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Didn't realise that we weren't able to trade with the US without some sort of agreement.:rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

None of this alters anything for me and HMG's tactics don't surprise me either. There's a lot of powerful vested interests applying pressure who don't give a fig for our sovereignty or anything else. I reckon they must be seriously scared.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's not aimed at you (or me for that matter) but undecided voters. The idea being that there will be enough voices warning of the economic risk that people will vote to Remain. It doesn't matter that you think that logic is wrong unless other people become convinced it's wrong too.

Does it matter if they're 'seriously scared'? They're campaigning with everything they've got. I think it would be better for Leave if they weren't scared. Maybe they've learnt the dangers of complacency from the Scottish campaign.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm still voting out

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Me too. Enough is enough so far as the EU is concerned and whatever else happens I'll be voting out of something we were never told we were joining. In fact, the more people like Obama say it's a bad thing, the more I believe it's the right thing for our long term security and prosperity. It won't be without pain but what can we really achieve in life that is easy?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron has called in all the favours he can for this EU campaign I'm sure there is some back handers going on behind closed doors. If he was so sure about the EU he wouldn't have needed to do what he is doing having to scare people into getting their vote.

He should be hung for treason selling his own country out and resorting to propaganda putting fear into those less fortunate.

Who cares what big ears Obama thinks he wont be in power much longer so sticks and stones idiot!!!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well that's reasonable. :erm:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm fed of both campaigns using trade deals as a reason to leave or remain ,it's quite simply rubbish .Trade deals will happen regardless of our position in Europe .Last year there was $56,352m in exports and $57,805m in imports, that trade will not disappear if we leave the EU simply because the companies and organisations that do that trade will still want to trade .
If voters are going to vote on the economy then it's a slam dunk for the leave campaign because us dumb voters have seen us give the rest of Europe billions in financial aid propping up bankrupt banks on the continent as part of our obligation as a EU state

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

... and I reckon our obligation to the EU will only ever increase too, in a number of ways. Whether it's the Euro, Greece, open borders, expansionism etc. you can bet we'll receive more than our fair share of the pain their madness has created. No we can't, sadly, isolate ourselves from all of the fallout but staying in will make matters far worse IMHO since our leaders have proved to be totally spineless when it comes to telling it how it is.

Why anyone would think that other countries we're in competition with would really have our best interests at heart is beyond me. They quite rightly care most about themselves and I've no doubt us staying in to carry on paying the bills, for example, would suit them just fine.

---------- Post added at 09:13 ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 ----------

Yes it does, it matters because they sense they could well lose and that should encourage those of us who can see beyond the ends of our noses and want to get out and those who feel likewise but believe it's a done deal so not worth voting on. ;)

If they weren't running so scared it'd be proof they felt they had the matter in the bag. They clearly don't feel they've won just yet.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If the Economy was really a 'slam dunk' for the Leave campaign then the referendum will already have been won for them. It's not as if it's a love of the EU and is keeping Remain level in the polling or if immigration is a strong point for the Remain campaign either. It's evidently not the case the economy is a 'slam dunk' for leave.

Plenty of economists and organisations have said the opposite as well. http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0XA17D

Polling suggests that the public currently believe it's risk too: http://www.itv.com/news/2016-04-20/i...eu-referendum/
[img][/img]

I am not saying this can't be turned around by Leave but it's simply wrong to suggest that if this were decided on the economy that it's a slam dunk for Leave. I am curious as to why you think Remain even stand a chance if you believe this to be the case because I can't see what else they have.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's talk like that, that will hand the referendum to remain. Let's look at what he said and analyse it.

Britain would go to the back of the queue regarding a trade agreement.

All Agreements would not cease to be in the event of a Leave vote. They can't just tear up our present agreement.

That is only HIS opinion. He's out this year and has no idea what the next President will do or how he/she will view the situation.

He said it's up to the voters but throws that spanner in the works to influence a Remain vote when he has no right getting involved. Blackmailing the voters into voting remain will not go down well with the Leave Camp.

Even Remain voters know there is no way on God's green earth he or any other President would sign up to the kind of restrictions imposed on us by the EU, he said as much.

It's a blatant scare tactic engineered by No. 10 to influence a remain vote. Wake up and smell the coffee mate the game is FAR from up. See it for what it is - a dirty trick concocted up by Cameron and Obama.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

fixed for you

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Forget about America. Any existing deal between the UK and USA will NOT be effected. Future deals is what he's talking about. The Emerging Markets are Asia and South America. That's the ones we should concentrate on.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think Boris is joining the dirty tricks brigade:

Obama hits back at Boris Johnson's alleged smears

I think that Boris must be rattled to start making personal remarks on Obama's racial background ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They are. They now realise that leaving is a real possibility and will use any dirty trick like this concoction between Cameron and Obama to force a Remain vote. Just see it for what it is and hope people on leave don't fall for it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It would be remarkably stupid of them to assume they have won. I don't think Leave will have a turnout problem and one crisis could turn the tide.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Me too

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I would suggest that all the economists and organisations you speak of try to see things from the point of view of the ordinary bloke in the street, who ,for the past 5 yrs or so have been bombarded by news items that we are giving billions to such and such bank because the EU says we must or billions in aid to other countries because the EU says we must ,or allowing thousands upon thousands of migrants into the country because the EU says we must and meanwhile the ordinary bloke in the street can't get a appointment at his doctors for a week or his dole has been cut because of cut backs so we can give the billions to a foreign bank .
The hardest task for the leave campaign is not convincing the ordinary bloke in the street that trade deals won't suffer or financial chaos won't ensue if we leave, it will be convincing them to vote because if they do that then it will be a landslide victory for the leave campaign

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just think about it and if you don't agree then say so and why.

---------- Post added at 10:24 ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 ----------

I agree he shouldn't lower himself to their level. We can win this if we stick to the facts, no need to resort to dirty tricks. It's one of the reasons I didn't pursue a Political Career. I'm too honest and I don't like dirty tricks. If you can't win on merit by presenting your arguments and facts it's not worth winning. Winning that way does not mean it's best for the country.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Most of our contributions to foreign banks have been via the IMF rather than the EU. Papers would say 'EU' because they're EU banks but the money is largely via the IMF. I think there are two exceptions which was Ireland, of our own accord because the banks are so linked, and a story a while back about the European Stability Mechanism being used for Greece but a quick Google couldn't confirm if that ever did actually happen.

Foreign aid is also largely our own policy.

Immigration is the main one and is Leave's best asset. Not the economy.

I don't think Leave have a turnout problem. I really think the economy is their biggest weakness but if they do have the economy, immigration and the rest in their favour they we're right, it's a landslide victory they'll win.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That is the point i'm making ,most ordinary people will base their voting intentions on what they hear on the news or read in the Sun/Mirror etc ,or see in their local area not what various trade organisations,treasury statistics or Obama says .For most people the EU is perceived to be a money grabbing ,freedom sucking bloated organisation and that is what they will base their decision on regardless of what the facts are

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

YouGov, 2,824 voters.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2016/04/5.jpg

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Agreed it will make some people vote to stay but look at it this way speaking of their areas. The Steel Industry, for example. What is the EU actually doing to help us? Nothing. It's up to the Buyers and Government to come up with a solution. Shows you don't have to be in the EU to make this possible.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Governments leaflet Fact Checked.

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/ca...ct-check-video

Michael Gove Fact Checked

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/ca...ave-fact-check

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Annoyed about it

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My decision will be down to what l think as no politician be it from this country or from the land of the free is going to influence me one jot at the end of the day.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Interesting stuff. The lesson there is it doesn't really make any difference if we leave the EU. Swings & Roundabouts I believe is the correct expression.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Challenge for the Brexiteers, if it doesn't make any difference, is that most people vote for the status quo if there are no major benefits from leaving...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What's Obama banging on about advising our youth not to withdraw from the world? How would leaving the EU be doing that? Leaving the EU will free us to do more trade with the rest of the world and if we lose trade with the EU (as they like to tell us) we'll have to make it up from elsewhere around the globe. I'd say that'd make us even more inclined to embrace the world, outside of Europe. Why would leaving the EU mean withdrawing from Europe? Does he think we'll stop going on holiday there or buying stuff from there? :confused: Or is it just more scaremongering?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I even expect a small move to Leave in the polls coming up. People are going to be annoyed and rebellious but it's designed to play ok the voters minds when they vote. There was a boost to Yes after Osbourne said there wouldn't be a currency union but in the end it hurt the Yes campaign as the question dogged them throughout that campaign.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wish I had your faith. I think he's killed the debate and made it much harder for us to win. It's nothing that can't be overcome. Leave now have to tell the people that this doesn't mean the USA wont trade with us or that any existing trade agreements will cease on June 24th, that any private trade agreements with the USA will still stand and that he was referring to future trade agreements. It will take 5-10 years to negotiate trade deals but this does not mean the present deals stop. It will take 5-10 years to untangle ourselves from the EU which means we will still be part of any trade agreements. Obama denies any scaremongering but that is exactly what it is when you break it down like this.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

EUROPEAN EMPIRE: Powerless Britain to become mere COLONY if we don't quit Brussels

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/663...overnor-Brexit

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Marine Le Pen to be shunned by politicians as she comes to Britain to join campaign for leaving the EU

21/04/16 12:23

Aides said the French National Front (FN) chief was 'bound' to come to the UK ahead of the crucial referendum on June 23. The planned intervention has infuriated senior figures in the Brexit campaign, who worry that links to politicians seen as extreme could scare voters. A spokesman for the official Vote Leave campaign said: 'We will not be welcoming Marine Le Pen to the UK.' ...read


On another note: Andrew Marr talking to Theresa May today. Didn't he do a good job on her? It sounds to me by the way he talks he's an Outer.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Obama just wants to make sure we don't screw up his TTIP plans, and it's not like we didn't have trading agreements with the US pre EU is it.


This is TTIP for those unaware.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...u-9779688.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

sounds like the USA want to colonise us .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They have always wanted that. A bit of revenge from when we ruled them.

---------- Post added at 11:19 ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 ----------

That is pretty scary stuff. Better to get the hell out of Dodge methinks!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

save me a seat on the bus

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't you mean the stagecoach?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The special relationship is mainly a device by which the US gets more from us than we get from them. The only time they mention how special we are is when they want or need something. Anyone who thinks us staying in the EU is in some way going to solve the huge problems it faces is deluded IMHO. It'd be great if that wasn't the case because the EU could and should have been a very good thing. Whilst the last thing we need is more instability, I reckon it's expecting far too much of the UK to sacrifice its sovereignty in what is a lost cause to bring common sense to Brussels. In fact it's as unreasonable as expecting the US to join in WWII before Pearl Harbour...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Big deal, as far as 'new agreements' go that would be us and Cuba then potentially, hardly much of a queue is it...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Very true. Who is exactly queuing up to sign trade agreements with the US? They had all their agreements in place apart from Cuba that is?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think you'll find it is the US doing the queuing to get TTIP accepted.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The special relationship has always been more of a British obsession. The reason why Obama's comments have been perceived as bad for Leave is because America and that relationship is seen as one of the alternatives for some of their campaigners as many are keen on the idea of an anglosphere.

Personally I simply see it as the fact the two nations share a similar culture and outlook on the world.

I agree. I just don't think leaving solves any problems but will create new ones such as economic uncertainty which will could do without after the last decade.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm voting out no matter what after some stupid yank comes over here threatening the UK over trade deals if we don't stay in the EU.

It's bad enough when our own are bickering over what is best for the country for Cameron to actually bring in outsiders and threaten the UK which is basically what he did and our own government has sat back and supported them in doing it.

What else are they going to resort to before voting day. stitch his own country up in order to get what they want and you don't think he should be hung for treason?

It's like going back to the dark ages

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't you think there is economic uncertainty caused by us being in the EU and being part of world wide economics, being in or out of the EU won't increase or decrease that uncertainty because all the major financial institutions are linked and reliant on each other

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Maybe in the EU but we sure don't want it in the UK.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

With the EU in the doldrums and in an uncertain world I'd rather be free to react and respond quickly to events in our own interests than being tied into an organisation that's about as responsive as an oil tanker heading rapidly towards an iceberg with an infighting committee at the helm all of whom think they know best.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

[QUOTE=Damien;35834037]There is more economic uncertainty staying in. The cost of being in the EU is rising and we'll need to recoup the cost somehow. Tax rises probably.

However, I do agree there will be some uncertainty but it won't last.

---------- Post added at 15:04 ---------- Previous post was at 15:00 ----------

I suppose it could be seen as a form of treason. I didn't hear about Obama planning a visit to the UK but it does see they are in cahoots with other and if true, not only is it a dirty trick it's yes, treasonous.

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:04 ----------

As I've stated there is more economic uncertainty staying in. The way the EU is going the economy could easily crash which will effect us more if we stay in than it would if we leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

'Treasonous'???

We're getting a bit silly now, boys and girls....

Be careful, you're starting to sound like the SNP Indie Reffers....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

[QUOTE=Big Brian;35834060]You may well be correct ,after all we are often told by our chancellor that the economic forecast is uncertain ,i just don't see how ,as Damien suggested, that, that uncertainty would be increased by us leaving when all the major institutions are linked ,if one crashes they all crash whether in the EU or not

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The hyperbole is certainly flowing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That cannot be denied and must be resisted. It's a one-way street and only benefits US Conglomerates.

Canada has already been stung with it.

http://canadians.org/transatlantic-trade-deals

More specific EU readfing here.

http://www.euractiv.com/section/scie...mpaigners-say/

https://stop-ttip.org/what-is-the-problem-ttip-ceta/

Try explaining this to the "IN" campaigners.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Since the UK has decided to have a vote on leaving how many outside forces have interfered with threats of consequences if we leave?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think you may be confusing 'their views/impact assessments' with 'threats of consequences'.

I think you wouldn't be complaining if these people made statements in support of Brexit.... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I would prefer it if outsiders just kept out of it. there is having an opinion and out right saying if you leave these are the consequences of it which in Obamas case he did.

I know there are pro's and con's for leaving and staying in the EU but the Brexit campaign isn't using fear techniques to scare people into voting.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am not talking of a 2008 style crash but slower economic growth as companies stall their investment because of increased costs to one of our biggest markets and less flexible movement of people and services which are important for those companies which operate across Europe. That's not to stay they can't operate like this, of course they can as they do elsewhere, but that their costs increase and it may be more competitive then to put more investment in places like Germany where they'll still have that access.

The response to this is that people still trade with nations that they do have deals with but to suddenly have even minor tariffs is a hit to companies and deal in bulk. To longer to be able to sell services to many nations as if it were your own is a hit.

The boss of Siemens (or former boss) had a good article about it here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/1...s-UK-boss.html

I also linked to this FT article a while back but it's worth seeing again as it's relatively measured and fair. It looks at the different scenario and largely concludes there would be an impact from leaving: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d...#axzz46ly9CC4x

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

The SNP did this as well though. Any time anyone said there would be a cost to Scotland leaving the Union they shouted scaremongering, any time we said you can't have a Currency Union they said it was bulling and any time people dismissed their notion of unicorns and rainbows in a Independent Scotland skeptics were dismissed as Project Fear.

When your campaign is based on the idea that the status-quo is better than the given alternative then all you have is to argue what you would lose. This isn't the most inspiring message but it's what there is, sometimes the choice isn't great and you can't sell it as anything other than the best of an imperfect situation.

Remain are entitled to argue that there would well be a nasty economic hit if we withdraw from the a large single market without much of any idea of what we will replace it with.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The "Independant(ish)" Bank of England stated they would not guarantee monitary union if Scotland exited the UK.

No matter what the result of the referendum there will be uncertainty in the money markets and the stock markets, no doubt due to futures buying/selling when no-one knew what the future would be.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The FT did an (imho) even handed article on Brexit in February, with some scenarios.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d...#axzz46mPRJPBo

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So is the "Disastrous Decision" the supporters of the EU making overconfident claims????

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

REVEALED: EU members draw up plans for United States of Europe behind Britain’s back

PLANS for a United States of Europe have been drawn up in a bid to give Brussels bureaucrats an iron grip over the continent, it has been revealed.

In a direct challenge to David Cameron’s claims of British sovereignty, Germany, France, Italy and Luxembourg signed a document last September in Rome calling for the creation of a “general union of states”, which has only now come to light.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/663...-States-Europe

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed. Those Countries in the EU have a right to their opinions on what the UK does as it will directly effect them. Those outside do not as we already have trade agreements with some of them. America getting involved, if the voter really thinks about it, is just them flexing their muscles. Leaving will not directly effect them.

On an other note: If we remain in the EU, and this is not denied by Remain, there will be over 3 million more migrants by 2030. If this is the case then coming out should dramatically cut that number. They reckon there are 8 million non-Brits living here already. I dispute that. What they mean surely is between London, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Manchester, Leeds and Bradford there are probably 8 million non-Brits. I think the number is more and I think 3 million by 2030 is an underestimation.

---------- Post added at 07:48 ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 ----------

Plans have been drawn up for a full-blown 'United States of Europe' and Britain will have little say, warns top Tory minister
Commons leader Chris Grayling said EU figures were already signed up
The documents speaks of 'concrete' plans to 'deepen integration'
It talks about 'more, not less Europe' was needed to meet challenges

By James Slack Political Editor For The Daily Mail

Published: 15:00, 24 April 2016 | Updated: 17:39, 24 April 2016


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz46onywhiI
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