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-   -   Eurozone will collapse... (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33678876)

heero_yuy 18-01-2015 18:59
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35753434)
You can bet even thou we have nothing to do with the Euro, the EU will expect us to help fund it. :mad:
Guaranteed the UK will be shafted by the EU.

Sirius 18-01-2015 19:03
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35753437)
Guaranteed the UK will be shafted by the EU.
indeed.

Osem 18-01-2015 23:04
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
But we should stay in, of course, because if we don't, all those buoyant EU economies will refuse to let us buy their products and millions of UK jobs will be lost blah blah blah...

Ignitionnet 18-01-2015 23:05
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35753437)
Guaranteed the UK will be shafted by the EU.
Yes, indirectly.

QE is being done to weaken the Euro in an attempt to reduce imports and increase exports. Alongside this they are trying to export their deflation to those whose goods they import.

Guess which currency area the UK's single largest export market is? :)

This is the second shot in a new currency war. The first shot was fired by the Swiss when they knew what was coming.

heero_yuy 20-01-2015 11:26
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
The euro’s next crisis:
Why an early election spells big dangers for Greece—and for the euro
Story link

Osem 20-01-2015 11:50
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Don't worry. It'll all be OK. As we know, from the succession of establishment politicians and expert nest featherers who've told us that the EU is a panacea for Europe's ills, membership of the club will guarantee peace and prosperity for all who care to join. Simples!

Does anyone really think that these people are so completely out of touch with reality that they'd spend decades single-mindedly pursuing a flawed concept and refusing to see the warning signs if something were truly and substantially wrong?

Nope, I'm sleeping sound, secure in the certainty that they know what they're doing and aren't at all a bunch of inept, blinkered and self serving ideologues who'd continue to proceed full steam ahead over the edge of a precipice...

:rolleyes:

heero_yuy 20-01-2015 12:03
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35753509)
Guess which currency area the UK's single largest export market is? :)
Quote:
Some 15 per cent of our economy depends on sales to the EU, a further 15 per cent on sales to the rest of the world, and 70 per cent on the home market. Yet, for the sake of having a minority say in the rules of the EU, which accounts for 15 per cent of our economy, we apply the full burden of Brussels regulations to 100 per cent of our businesses.


Quote:
This is the second shot in a new currency war. The first shot was fired by the Swiss when they knew what was coming.
Quote:
No wonder the Swiss prefer a free trade agreement : while they sell, proportionately, far more to the EU than we do, they recognise that remaining outside the Brussels regulatory framework gives them a competitive advantage.
Source for quotes

And don't forget the positive distortion in EU trade figures by the Rotterdam Effect.

Quote:
Rotterdam Effect: many British exports to non-EU markets are shipped through Antwerp and Rotterdam, thus showing up in the figures as exports to the EU.

Osem 25-01-2015 19:16
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Exit polls suggest a historic victory for the anti-austerity Syriza party in Greece's closely fought general election.

One poll suggested Syriza took 35.5% of the votes, and the other suggested it took 39.5%, well ahead of the ruling New Democracy party on 23%-27%.

It is unclear whether Syriza has enough votes to govern the country alone.

Syriza's Alexis Tsipras has pledged to renegotiate Greece's debt arrangement with international creditors.

He has also vowed to reverse many of the austerity measures adopted by Greece since a series of bailouts began in 2010.

The result is being closely watched outside Greece, where it is believed a Syriza victory could encourage radical leftist parties across Europe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30975437

Is this the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end?...

Sirius 25-01-2015 22:06
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35755157)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30975437

Is this the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end?...
Oh God i hope so.

Chris 25-01-2015 22:16
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
I would love to see Greece out of the Euro by the end of 2015. Demonstrating that a one-size-fits-all currency is nonsense, and that the Euro project is reversible, are two prizes very much worth having.

idi banashapan 25-01-2015 22:22
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
I can't see Frankfurt handing back Gold somehow. The dissolve of the Euro will not be one is choice, but one of collapse. I believe we will end up back at a Gold Standard, but the Fiat currency currently in use in the first world will need to fall first.

Maggy 26-01-2015 00:41
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Hate it or love it we cannot divorce ourselves from Europe.Historically we've tried it in the past and we always get dragged back in one way or another.We have far more in common with them than other parts of the globe.

Osem 26-01-2015 09:04
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
I really don't think many people want a 'divorce from Europe' in the sense of cutting ourselves off. That would seem to me to be nonsense and even Farage, AFAIK, hasn't said that. I believe most people who object to the EU here do so because they don't want to be part of a straightjacket monetary policy and single European currency, much less and single state which governs almost every significant aspect of our lives. The big problem as I see it is the obsession of the Eurocrats in building a superstate regardless of the damage it's doing and effectively 'bribing' poorer countries to join the club when they're clearly not ready to do so. Such countries don't join to be net contributors, they join to be amongst the myriad nations which hope to take more out than they put in. It's a flawed concept IMHO.

Ignitionnet 26-01-2015 09:09
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35755189)
Demonstrating that a one-size-fits-all currency is nonsense
I think the experience of the PIIGS shows this beyond any kind of reasonable doubt already. Eurozone fiscal policy was lethal to Ireland.

Osem 26-01-2015 09:13
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Anti-austerity Syriza party leader Alexis Tsipras has vowed to end Greece's "five years of humiliation and pain" after his general election win.

Before cheering supporters, Mr Tsipras again pledged to renegotiate Greece's massive international bailout.

With nearly all of the votes counted in Sunday's poll, Syriza looks set to have 149 seats, just two short of an absolute majority.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30978052

Ignitionnet 26-01-2015 09:16
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35755207)
Hate it or love it we cannot divorce ourselves from Europe.Historically we've tried it in the past and we always get dragged back in one way or another.We have far more in common with them than other parts of the globe.
I think an amicable divorce would be fine. I live near my neighbours, we lend each other things, buy and sell items and indeed services from one another, co-operate in community projects, but we aren't married. By a similar token political union is entirely unnecessary to free trade in Europe.

I'd also question that we have more in common with them than the Anglophone nations of Australia, Canada and, to a lesser extent, the United States, not to mention former Commonwealth states.

European states had their own identities a long time ago and while we may share roots with them Australia, Canada and the United States are more than cousins, they're the UK's grown up 'offspring'. They may have gone their own way now but similarities are unmistakable, even if in the case of the USA they've gone out of their way to shake them off.

Maggy 26-01-2015 11:19
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35755239)
I think an amicable divorce would be fine. I live near my neighbours, we lend each other things, buy and sell items and indeed services from one another, co-operate in community projects, but we aren't married. By a similar token political union is entirely unnecessary to free trade in Europe.

I'd also question that we have more in common with them than the Anglophone nations of Australia, Canada and, to a lesser extent, the United States, not to mention former Commonwealth states.

European states had their own identities a long time ago and while we may share roots with them Australia, Canada and the United States are more than cousins, they're the UK's grown up 'offspring'. They may have gone their own way now but similarities are unmistakable, even if in the case of the USA they've gone out of their way to shake them off.
But there are as many differences between us and our former colonies too.For one our history with them is far shorter than that with our neighbours and Australia,Canada and the US are as much connected to Europe as we are seeing as many of the residents of those country look back to their mother countries in Europe where their ancestors emigrated from.

richard s 26-01-2015 12:04
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35755239)
I'd also question that we have more in common with them than the Anglophone nations of Australia, Canada and, to a lesser extent, the United States, not to mention former Commonwealth states.

European states had their own identities a long time ago and while we may share roots with them Australia, Canada and the United States are more than cousins, they're the UK's grown up 'offspring'. They may have gone their own way now but similarities are unmistakable, even if in the case of the USA they've gone out of their way to shake them off.
Do not forget to mention our ancestors influence on the British Isles: Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans.

Damien 26-01-2015 13:21
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Some on the 'hard left' are celebrating a bit too soon about this result. Greece hasn't been saved yet and it's looking quite likely that Germany will not bow to their demands to reduce the debt they owe. This could get very sticky for Greece and the Eurozone has spent the last few years limiting their exposure to the point where they are less concerned about them

Ignitionnet 26-01-2015 13:37
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Coalition all sewed up it seems.

David Cameron's comments on this were fairly contemptible.

Quote:
The Greek election will increase economic uncertainty across Europe. That's why the UK must stick to our plan, delivering security at home.
Pretty hypocritical unless they plan on reneging on their referendum pledge. That's hardly good for stability in Europe. Also shows a fairly high degree of disdain for a nation exercising their democratic rights, and is seriously lacking in class to use another country's election to score points.

EDIT: While we're at it...

Quote:
UK Prime Minister David Cameron's spokeswoman says he "respects the decision of the Greek people" but adds: "Greece needs to deal with its deficit and meet its international commitments."
Anyone remember us being told that if it weren't for Dave and Gideon's tough decisions we'd end up like Greece? I suspect those two would take a primary surplus (Their budget aside from interest payments on debts Greece is in balance) right now. More worried about getting re-elected though.

Osem 26-01-2015 20:58
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Greece's new government will find little support among eurozone policymakers for a debt write-off, a senior finance chief has said.

Jeroen Dijsselbloem, who heads the eurozone finance ministers' group, said Greece must "stick to the rules".

Speaking before a Eurogroup meeting on Monday, he said; "There is very little support for a write off in Europe
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30977714

Matth 27-01-2015 01:09
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
I'd like to see an assurance that Britain will not pour good money after bad into propping up the Euro - hang on, didn't we already sell a large part of our gold reserves at a low, to prop up this artificial invented currency before.

We are not part of the Eurozone, but still suffer for it - THAT MUST END.

We should be prepared to deliver the coup de grace, rather than a rescue, putting a merciful end to the grandiose political experiment.

We voted for the "common market" - AND NOTHING ELSE.

Ignitionnet 27-01-2015 01:57
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
No-one forced the Eurozone to jump to the defence of its banks that had lent money to Greece.

Let's cut through the ******** here - the Greek bailout was not a bailout for Greece, it was a bailout for all the largely German, French and Dutch banks that had loaned Greece money, and needed paying guaranteed and via the Greek taxpayer.

Had they not been so obsessed with the dogma of ever closer union and been willing to accept that they had screwed up and amputate the limb, rather than refuse to on the grounds that it would show that Euro membership were not permanent and immovable, things would perhaps have been different.

See Iceland for what happens when a nation state doesn't make itself a slave to the private sector - it does rather well in the medium term.

The private sector messed up when it made those loans, banks should've folded as a result rather than being propped up by the taxpayer.

That's been the major problem with the Euro farce; zero risk to bankers as when the private sector have made mistakes the taxpayer has jumped in to rescue them rather than risk the ideological experiment.

The private sector has zero excuse for not doing its homework and seeing Greece as the basket case it was, and Germany certainly showed no hesitation when its banks were essentially loaning Greece money to buy Germany's exports.

---------- Post added at 00:57 ---------- Previous post was at 00:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matth (Post 35755443)
hang on, didn't we already sell a large part of our gold reserves at a low, to prop up this artificial invented currency before.
Gold was sold because the worldwide banking system had made the wrong bet on where gold prices were going to go and our dear Chancellor of the time decided to lower the gold price to keep them afloat by selling our reserves at a rock bottom price.

Basically the entire UK took a hit to keep rent seeking *******s who add nothing to the global economy in terms of actual value wealthy. Good isn't it?

Chris 27-01-2015 09:24
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35755306)
Anyone remember us being told that if it weren't for Dave and Gideon's tough decisions we'd end up like Greece? I suspect those two would take a primary surplus (Their budget aside from interest payments on debts Greece is in balance) right now. More worried about getting re-elected though.
To be fair, the reason New Democracy has just been eviscerated in favour of a hard-left protest party is because that primary surplus has come at the cost of truly massive unemployment. Youth unemployment has been as high as 62%. Even Gideon and Dave would balk at that. The price the Greek people have paid for the illusion of budget stability has been just too high.

richard s 27-01-2015 09:44
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
The rich Greeks have not been paying their fair share of taxes or non at all to help their own country (also corruption), yet when the EU helps them out (though severe austerity is being suffered) they turn on the hand that tries to help them.

I believe that Europe will only get stronger.

Ignitionnet 27-01-2015 10:10
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35755475)
The rich Greeks have not been paying their fair share of taxes or non at all to help their own country (also corruption), yet when the EU helps them out (though severe austerity is being suffered) they turn on the hand that tries to help them.

I believe that Europe will only get stronger.
The EU countries helped out their banks and their project, not Greece.

Osem 27-01-2015 10:18
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Their precious, irreversible and unassailable vanity project which they refuse to compromise on. The only voices these people really listen to are their own and those which toe the line - those with the temerity to disagree are treated with contempt and asked again until they give the right answer. We can disagree about the rights and wrongs of the EU but IMHO there's not much doubt about the inevitable outcome when a group of blinkered and uncompromising politicians acquire too much power and it isn't pretty...

Ignitionnet 27-01-2015 10:24
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35755469)
To be fair, the reason New Democracy has just been eviscerated in favour of a hard-left protest party is because that primary surplus has come at the cost of truly massive unemployment. Youth unemployment has been as high as 62%. Even Gideon and Dave would balk at that. The price the Greek people have paid for the illusion of budget stability has been just too high.
A big reason the Conservatives aren't going to be eviscerated in this election is thanks to running the economy with one eye on the election for the entire duration of the parliament. It's storing up a lot of problems for the future sadly.

Osem 27-01-2015 10:59
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
According to what I've heard from a certain Max Keiser (Keiser Report)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Keiser

... big trouble is indeed ahead and apparently unavoidable. We're all doomed and it's just a matter of time. Reminds me of another doom predicting American finance expert who used to appear on LBC and TV regularly- Bob Beckman... :erm:

Ignitionnet 27-01-2015 12:30
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
To be fair to Max I think we've all underestimated the lengths to which politicians will go to protect banks and get re-elected.

Hugh 27-01-2015 14:39
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35755475)
The rich Greeks have not been paying their fair share of taxes or non at all to help their own country (also corruption), yet when the EU helps them out (though severe austerity is being suffered) they turn on the hand that tries to help them.

I believe that Europe will only get stronger.
Not just the 'rich' - the middle classes / small business owners have been doing their fair share of avoidance as well....

heero_yuy 27-01-2015 14:57
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35755530)
Not just the 'rich' - the middle classes / small business owners have been doing their fair share of avoidance as well....
IIRC The public sector was also paying 14 months wages for 12 months work. :nutter:

Chris 27-01-2015 14:58
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
It is a very long-term problem in Greece, and a problem which the Euro and its accompanying low interest rates did nothing to discourage. Quite the opposite, in fact.

It's hard medicine but default, reinstatement of the Drachma and then rebuilding the Greek economy from the ground up is the only real solution. Greece is an important tourist destination and holidays denominated in Drachmas would be highly desirable. I'd certainly be tempted.

Osem 27-01-2015 15:14
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Well I hope the Greeks don't have inflated expectations of what's possible. Altering the terms of their debt. is one thing but the fact remains that unless they remove themselves from the straightjacket which exacerbated their problems, they'll still be wearing it. After so much pain followed by terrific hope surrounding this election, I hope that we don't see widespread social unrest if the people don't get what they believe they've voted for and soon...

richard s 27-01-2015 15:17
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35755482)
Their precious, irreversible and unassailable vanity project which they refuse to compromise on. The only voices these people really listen to are their own and those which toe the line - those with the temerity to disagree are treated with contempt and asked again until they give the right answer. We can disagree about the rights and wrongs of the EU but IMHO there's not much doubt about the inevitable outcome when a group of blinkered and uncompromising politicians acquire too much power and it isn't pretty...
UK comes to mind.

Ignitionnet 27-01-2015 16:41
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
An enlightening interview with Syriza's finance man.

Damien 27-01-2015 17:30
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
As I understand they want to end austerity, spend more (to stimulate the economy) and stay in the Euro. Seems a hard ask.

Ignitionnet 27-01-2015 17:42
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35755567)
As I understand they want to end austerity, spend more (to stimulate the economy) and stay in the Euro. Seems a hard ask.
Alongside extensive structural reform, which is the key thing Greece needs.

Regrettably the 'German prescription' was forced down their throats first.

Osem 27-01-2015 17:58
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Of course, some of us pointed out the realities of trying to 'unite' economies as diverse as Germany and Greece but were summarily dismissed as little Englanders, Europhobes and loonies. I know who's looking more like lunatics now...

Osem 30-01-2015 23:02
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
So the war of words hots up:

Quote:
Greece's new left-wing finance minister says his government will not negotiate over the Greek bailout conditions with the "troika" team from the EU and IMF.

Yanis Varoufakis said he was rather seeking direct talks with eurozone leaders, to try to cancel more than half the money Greece owes...

... In Berlin, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said the Greeks should abide by their commitments, adding: "There's no arguing with us about this and, what's more, we are difficult to blackmail."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31055069

Chris 30-01-2015 23:30
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
It's now a massive game of chicken. Who will swerve first? Or are they both so confident the other will move, that they're heading for a head-on collision?

heero_yuy 31-01-2015 10:31
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35756258)
It's now a massive game of chicken. Who will swerve first? Or are they both so confident the other will move, that they're heading for a head-on collision?
Or maybe two rabbits paralysed by fear of what will happen as the headlights of the crisis bear down on them.:D

Osem 31-01-2015 13:06
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
... And just in case anyone's in any doubt:

Quote:
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has ruled out cancelling any of Greece's debt, saying banks and creditors have already made substantial cuts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31072321

But in Spain some folks are hoping they'll be able to write off debts too...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31072139

Quote:
Podemos has surged into the lead in recent opinion polls, and says it will seek to write off part of Spain's debt if it wins elections later this year.

Podemos says politicians should "serve the people, not private interests".
Couldn't see this happening at all... :confused: :rolleyes:

It always struck me that whilst EU 'investment/bribes' to member states could keep things artificially sweet when times were good, it wouldn't take long for all that to unravel when life got a bit tougher and economic realities came home to roost.

Ignitionnet 01-02-2015 00:39
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
A good read on the Greek situation.

Osem 05-02-2015 10:02
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Meanwhile the screw slowly turns:

Quote:
The European Central Bank (ECB) has toughened its stance with Greece by restricting financing to the country's banks.

In a statement, the central bank said it would no longer accept Greek government bonds as collateral for lending money to commercial banks.

The move makes access to cash more expensive for Greece's banks.

The ECB said the suspension came as it could not assume a "successful" deal on Greece's €240bn (£179bn) bailout.
Does anyone in Euro-La-La-Land seriously think the extraordinary resentment created by this episode is ever going to be forgotten? Whatever the outcome of these talks, I think lasting and serious damage has been done to the fabric of Europe.

Osem 05-02-2015 14:14
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Greece's new finance minister Yanis Varoufakis has urged Germany not to humiliate the country over its debts.

Mr Varoufakis compared Greece's plight with that of inter-war Germany, speaking ahead of a meeting with his German counterpart.

Germany was burdened with massive debts after World War One and threatened by hyper-inflation, crippling its economy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31147112

Quote:
In an interview with German ARD television, Mr Varoufakis said: "I think of the countries in Europe, the Germans understand best this simple message.

"If you humiliate a proud nation for too long and subject it to the worry of a debt deflation crisis, without light at the end of a tunnel then things come to the boil."
Sounds like there's a whole lot of resentment building up...

Chris 05-02-2015 18:06
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Stein's Law: "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop".

You simply can't impose the kind of economic insanity that Greece has been subjected to. Say what you like about how the country needed to get its finances under control, fix its broken tax system, live within its means or whatever. Varoufakis is right. For better or worse, the country is bankrupt and the creditors, sooner or later, are going to have to take the hit.

Mr Angry 05-02-2015 22:05
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35757435)
Stein's Law: "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop".

You simply can't impose the kind of economic insanity that Greece has been subjected to. Say what you like about how the country needed to get its finances under control, fix its broken tax system, live within its means or whatever. Varoufakis is right. For better or worse, the country is bankrupt and the creditors, sooner or later, are going to have to take the hit.
This.

Osem 19-02-2015 14:06
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Well in surprise news, the Germans have rejected Greece's compromise plan...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31532755

Quote:
Germany has rejected a Greek request for a six-month extension to its eurozone loan programme, after earlier signs that a compromise was possible.

Greek had sought a six-month assistance package, rather than a renewal of the existing deal which comes with tough austerity conditions.

But German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said it was "not a substantial proposal for a solution".

The European Commission had earlier called the Greek request "positive".

heero_yuy 19-02-2015 14:23
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35760252)
Well in surprise news, the Germans have rejected Greece's compromise plan...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31532755
Looks like a game of who blinks first. No doubt they'll find SOME way of kicking the can down the road and temporarilly avoiding the collapse.

Hugh 19-02-2015 18:22
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
It's about who blinks first, and the Greeks have a lot more to lose....

Damien 19-02-2015 19:05
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Haven't Greece already blinked first? They went into a poker game without a strong hand and seem to have lost.

Osem 21-02-2015 22:57
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has warned of "real difficulties" ahead, as his government faces a Monday deadline to submit a list of reforms to lenders.

Under a deal agreed on Friday, the list must be approved by the international creditors in order for Greece to secure a four-month extension of its bailout.

"We won a battle, not the war," Mr Tspiras said on Saturday.

The deal is widely regarded as a major climb down for the PM, who won power vowing to reverse budget cuts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31564846

This guy's promised a great deal and unless he delivers something of tangible benefit there's going to be an awful lot of unhappy Greeks asking why.

Derek 09-03-2015 21:50
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
The Greeks are threatening to throw the mother of all strops if they don't get their way.

Quote:
Panos Kammenos, Greece's defence minister, threatens to open country's borders to refugees – including potential members of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) - unless Athens receives debt crisis support

Greece will unleash a “wave of millions of economic migrants” and jihadists on Europe unless the eurozone backs down on austerity demands, the country's defence and foreign ministers have threatened.

Panos Kammenos, the Greek defence minister, warned that if the eurozone allowed Greece to go bust it would give EU travel papers to illegal immigrants crossing its borders or to the 10,000 currently held in detention centres.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rn-Europe.html

Damien 09-03-2015 21:54
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
That's what happens when you elect amateurs to serious positions. I didn't think he actually said that and assumed The Telegraph has inferred something beyond his actual comments but no, he really did say that. Amazing.

Kursk 09-03-2015 22:08
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
I'm sure it will help the Greek economy if the Country is no longer a viable tourist destination...

Time for the Eurozone to cut its losses. Perhaps we should all divert our overseas aid to Greece?

Sirius 09-03-2015 22:13
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 35763660)
I'm sure it will help the Greek economy if the Country is no longer a viable tourist destination...

Time for the Eurozone to cut its losses. Perhaps we should all divert our overseas aid to Greece?
Who in there right mind would go there on holiday if the greeks do that. Oh wait open there borders where i have seen that before :D

Osem 09-03-2015 22:22
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Welcome to EuroLaLaLand.

Osem 11-03-2015 19:47
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
The Greek government has threatened to seize German property as compensation for a Nazi atrocity in World War Two.

Justice Minister Nikos Paraskevopoulos said he was ready to approve a Supreme Court ruling from 2000 backing payment to relatives of the 218 victims.

The debt-ridden government is already calling for Germany to pay billions of euros in wartime reparations.

But Germany insists the issue of compensation was settled in 1990, before the country was reunified.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31831694

Don't mention the war eh?

Chris 12-03-2015 12:03
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Ah, the Euro. Such a force for peace and unity.

Osem 12-03-2015 17:17
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Yes, and it's not like it was entirely predictable. I mean who could have foreseen that the German tailored Euro-straightjacket might be tolerated when times were good but the cause of enormous pain when the inevitable happened? :shrug: :rolleyes:

Osem 23-03-2015 08:45
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is due to meet German Chancellor Angela Merkel amid mounting concern that Athens is running out of money.

The two countries have been at odds over Greece's efforts to renegotiate the terms of its international bailout.

The Financial Times reported on Sunday that Mr Tsipras had warned Mrs Merkel it could not meet imminent debt payments without new aid.

But Mrs Merkel said on Friday there would be no new money without reforms.

Spain's Economy Minister, Luis de Guindos, backed Germany's position, saying on Sunday that Greece must implement promised economic reforms.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32012066

Quote:
According to the FT, Greece's precarious financial position was underlined in a letter sent by Mr Tsipras to Mrs Merkel on 15 March.

In the letter, he writes that Greece faced a short term cash flow-crisis and may have to choose between paying pensions and wages and meeting debt obligations.

Mr Tsipras seems clear which option he would choose, writing that to add to Greece's social crisis was "a prospect that I will not countenance".
That'll go down well...

Kursk 24-03-2015 22:41
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Page 3 of The Hun is predicting a blitzkrieg of Greek sunbeds this summer...

Ignitionnet 16-04-2015 13:23
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
William Hill just closed the book on Greece leaving the Eurozone in 2015 and their being the first to leave.

Sirius 16-04-2015 21:54
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
If they leave they will not be the last. The flood gates may open.

Osem 17-04-2015 08:40
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Greece would struggle to find creditors outside the EU and IMF, German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble has said.

He said it would be welcome to try to find investment from Beijing or Moscow, but may have difficulties.

His warning came after fears of a Greek debt default saw its borrowing costs jump 3.5 percentage points to 27%.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32335758


Quote:
The International Monetary Fund has warned Greece in its toughest language to date that a delay in debt payments would be an unprecedented event with no moral justification.


"We have never had an advanced economy asking for payment delays," said Christine Lagarde, the Fund's managing-director.


"It is clearly not a course of action that would be fit or recommended. This would mean additional contributions by the international community and some of these countries are in a direr situation than those seeking the delays," she said, making it clear that the Fund would not bend its rules to avert a showdown.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...nt-relief.html

Damien 17-04-2015 09:39
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Incidentally this could all kick off just before the General Election. Next week is the official deadline. A crazy two weeks in the Eurozone could help the Tories here.

Osem 17-04-2015 09:49
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
The more chaos in Eurolalaland, the better it appears we are doing but the truth is it will hurt us. Good job all our eggs aren't in that particular basket.

richard s 17-04-2015 09:54
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Just what the Russians are hoping for a broken up European Union. We cannot go back to the old days. Unity is Strength.

Chris 17-04-2015 10:09
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35772122)
Just what the Russians are hoping for a broken up European Union. We cannot go back to the old days. Unity is Strength.
Homogeneity and unity are not one and the same.

It is perfectly possible for an association of sovereign nation states to show unity. Sadly, the Euro-project is attempting to force homogeneity, with the inevitable consequence that unity suffers and eventually breaks down - which is exactly what is now playing out in Greece.

richard s 17-04-2015 10:21
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Nothing wrong with bringing the people together, with our petty singular mind set. Past history should tell us something about ourselves.

Chris 17-04-2015 10:22
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35772130)
Nothing wrong with bringing the people together, with our petty singular mind set. Past history should tell us something about ourselves.
You appear to be missing the point.

The economic sanctions forced on Greece are not "bringing people together" - they are driving people apart.

Unity is good. What the EU is doing is not unity.

richard s 17-04-2015 10:33
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
But what did Greece have to offer in the first place. Greece should not have been allowed into the EU until it had its finances in order.

heero_yuy 17-04-2015 10:55
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35772133)
But what did Greece have to offer in the first place. Greece should not have been allowed into the EU until it had its finances in order.
Exactly, but the Euro was never about producing wealth for the citizens of the EU and everything about a vanity project of Eurocrats trying to vie with the strength of the Dollar.

Ignitionnet 17-04-2015 11:29
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35772122)
Just what the Russians are hoping for a broken up European Union. We cannot go back to the old days. Unity is Strength.
I think you're confusing the EU and NATO here?

Perhaps the Eurozone creditor nations should've thought about unity, etc, before they bailed out their banks and handed the Greeks the bills?

The Greek bailout was a creditor nation bailout - the troika giving money to insolvent German, Dutch, French, etc, banks that made loans they shouldn't have.

rhyds 17-04-2015 11:32
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35772122)
Just what the Russians are hoping for a broken up European Union. We cannot go back to the old days. Unity is Strength.
NATO does more to scare the Russians than the EU ever did.

Ignitionnet 17-04-2015 11:36
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35772133)
But what did Greece have to offer in the first place. Greece should not have been allowed into the EU until it had its finances in order.
There are hardly any Eurozone members that have actually stuck to the rules of the Eurozone throughout their membership, and it has expanded to eastern European nations that are, per capita, less wealthy than Greece.

Osem 17-04-2015 17:08
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
While the EU is still debating umpteen different viewpoints in even more languages, Putin sends troops in and gets his work done. Suits him just fine...

---------- Post added at 16:08 ---------- Previous post was at 16:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35772140)
Exactly, but the Euro was never about producing wealth for the citizens of the EU and everything about a vanity project of Eurocrats trying to vie with the strength of the Dollar.
The EU were so desperate for members to massage their bloated egos they'd let practically anyone in the club. If the meltdown hadn't intervened they'd probably have admitted more countries who'd fiddled their books and would now be weighing us down...

Osem 12-05-2015 10:29
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Greece's finance minister says his country's financial situation is "terribly urgent" and the crisis could come to a head in a couple of weeks.

Yanis Varoufakis gave the warning after eurozone finance ministers met in Brussels to discuss the final €7.2bn tranche of Greece's €240bn EU/IMF bailout.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32699355

The midnight oil will be burning in Brussels.

Ignitionnet 12-05-2015 14:17
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...0NW10I20150512

Quote:
ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece tapped emergency reserves in its holding account at the International Monetary Fund to make a crucial 750 million euro ($839 million) debt payment to the Fund on Monday, two government officials said on Tuesday.

With Athens close to running out of cash and a deal with its international creditors still elusive, there had been doubts whether the leftist-led government would pay the IMF or opt to save cash to pay salaries and pensions later this month.

Carlos Carboni 12-05-2015 16:12
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35772133)
But what did Greece have to offer in the first place. .
kebabs

Osem 12-05-2015 16:13
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Ask the Eurocrats who signed them up what Greece had to offer.

Carlos Carboni 12-05-2015 16:14
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35777411)

Well, the borrowed money from the Council of Salonika. The mayor there is in the same party as Tsipras.

Osem 12-05-2015 23:11
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
So Greece has successfully completed its latest €750m (£538m) debt repayment to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), but even that news has a twist in the tail.

Greek officials say most of the money was taken from a buffer account held at the IMF itself - an account that is only meant to be used in cases of emergency.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-eu-32710724

Chris 13-05-2015 16:12
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
So in other words, they didn't actually pay it. Rather like a stag weekend that rents a holiday cottage and trashes it, then refuses to pay for the damage, the landlord (IMF) has simply dipped into the security deposit to cover the repairs.

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------

The major creditor states have long since prepared for Grexit, as has Greece and the EU itself. The only thing keeping it in the Euro now, is the lingering, hopeless belief that European integration is, must be, has to be irreversible, coupled with a very, very angry US State Department that really doesn't want to see Greece go running off to uncle Vlad.

heero_yuy 13-05-2015 18:45
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
I just wish this slow motion train wreck would properly hit the buffers and we can then move on.

The lingering death is very ugly for all concerned.

Horizon 13-05-2015 22:46
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Greece may be printing banknotes:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...nt-greek-notes

If this is true, Grexit and a euro collapse cannot be that far off.

Chris 13-05-2015 23:31
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
I think that's a racing certainty.

Horizon 14-05-2015 00:12
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
I never say anything is a certainty, but in this case the Greeks have not changed their basic behaviour. They still stuff their town halls with civil servants even in the smallest towns and villages, so thrift is clearly not being learnt by all.

It can't be long before the Germans lose patience or the Greek banks run out of money. Whichever happens first, the result will be the same. Not good for us either way.

Osem 14-05-2015 09:29
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
No not good for anyone really which is why so many of us detest what the EU has become. It's been an 'accident' waiting to happen but just like a defective political party in denial about its policies, the EU carries on regardless pushing an outdated and unworkable agenda regardless of the reality.

As has been said, Greece's problems might well present an opportunity for Putin to further pursue his agenda and that prospect won't go down well in the west. I think a lot of people forget just how seemingly unconnected events can escalate and combine to create conflict. With what's going on around the world, I have a nasty feeling about the outcome of all this.

Ignitionnet 14-05-2015 13:34
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Greek Finance Minister

Quote:
I wish we had not entered this monetary union. But once you're in you don't get out, without catastrophe.

nomadking 14-05-2015 13:43
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
The finances of Greece were in trouble long before joining the Euro. Eg How was it ever sustainable for hairdressers to retire at 55 or for unmarried women(sexist to begin with) to inherit their parents pensions, ie that's 2 or 3 incomes:shocked:? The list goes on and on and that is before you get into collecting taxes.

Chris 14-05-2015 13:58
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35777837)
Greek Finance Minister
So, in one short sentence:

- He begins to invite Greeks to think the Euro is not a good thing after all
- He doesn't quite say it's impossible to get out

Of course, they can't leave until the exit plan is complete. If the markets get even a moment's notice, the resulting stampede for the exits would cripple Greece instantly. Deposit flight is already at very worrying levels as it is.

They will be getting all their ducks in a row, printing currency and planning to prevent money leaving the country from the moment Grexit is announced.

Ignitionnet 14-05-2015 14:16
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/05/14.png

Osem 14-05-2015 14:40
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35777838)
The finances of Greece were in trouble long before joining the Euro. Eg How was it ever sustainable for hairdressers to retire at 55 or for unmarried women(sexist to begin with) to inherit their parents pensions, ie that's 2 or 3 incomes:shocked:? The list goes on and on and that is before you get into collecting taxes.
Makes you wonder who on Earth would be stupid enough to invite them into a club with an unswerving commitment to a single currency and rigid monetary policy?? :confused:

:rolleyes:

Osem 03-06-2015 12:41
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
There is something wonderfully mad about the idea that if Greece's creditors can agree on a bailout, which they have done, that represents important progress.

Because, as won't have escaped your notice, the biggest problem all along has been that the youngish Syriza government of the debtor, Greece itself, hates the conditions imposed by the creditors for the mooted rescue.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32989534

Quote:
Whatever the human temptation to say to the Greeks they shouldn't have borrowed the money and have to pay it back, it also defies precedent to argue that a country with such a relatively small and weak private sector will ever have the capacity to pay it back.

Which implies that the only rational conversation for Greece's creditors to have with Greece is the one they refuse to have - which is on the scale of a write-off necessary to take the country off an inevitable road to dangerous penury.

Osem 05-06-2015 09:15
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
Greece has told the International Monetary Fund it will delay Friday's €300m (£216m) debt repayment and bundle all four of its June payments together.

The Athens government will have until 30 June to pay the €1.5bn total, which is also the day on which its bailout deal with the EU and IMF runs out.

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is trying to reach a deal to unlock final bailout funds before Greece runs out of money.

But Greece's creditors say differences remain between the two sides.

IMF spokesman Gerry Rice said that under a precedent dating back to the late 1970s, governments could ask to bundle together "multiple principal payments falling due in a calendar month... to address the administrative difficulty of making multiple payments in a short period."

The last country to bundle together payments to the IMF was Zambia in the mid-1980s.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33009034

Administrative difficulties?? :rofl:

It seems to me that a lot of people are in denial.

Osem 15-06-2015 21:57
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
Quote:
EU officials and German politicians have vented their frustration at Greece, with time running out for reaching a debt deal.

One diplomat described as amateurish Greece's attempts to unlock bailout funds from the EU and IMF.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said it was up to international creditors to "turn to realism".

But Germany's European Commissioner said if talks failed Greece would come under a state of emergency.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33136664

I can see all this stirring up resentment which will not be forgotten in a very long time.

Damien 15-06-2015 23:09
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
It's just winding me up now. The Eurozone seem to be demand unrealistically punitive conditions on a deal. A 1% surplus? It's clearly ridiculous. Cut them more slack with their repayments and the debt but insist that they institute real reforms. It's clear Greece won't be able to pay them back any time soon so it's better to try and force them into actions that will stabilise the country until such time repayment looks more promising.

That said I don't think Greece has been serious about addressing the systemic problems in their economy and public sector and in that respect it doesn't really matter if they stay or leave the Eurozone. The problems will remain. They could devalue their currency all they like but no one is going to lend to a country that has defaulted on their debts and shows on desire to avoid such problems in the future.

Osem 16-06-2015 08:56
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 
I predict cartoons of a great big German jackboot full of Euros squashing starving Greek peasants.


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