Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ROFL
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...0_pi/comments/
"
I Am the Anti-Phorm !!

By MYOFB
Posted Wednesday 19th March 2008 20:48 GMT
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/03/22.png My answer to the issue of Phorm is . . .
If it comes to pass that BT, VM, CPW, et al implement their 'package' then I will personally Roger them all Rigid, whilst taking a 'Happy Slap' video on my mobile (which I will post to every 'social' website).

When I'm hauled into court to face the charges of my perverse course of action, my Barrister (in my defence) will put forward this 'argument' . . .
"How can you stand there before this court to complain of being shafted, publicly, by one man, when you yourselves have shafted millions, publicly, between you?!" "I ask the court to dismiss all charges herein based on these grounds!"
Law Lords response . . . ?
Case dismissed!!!
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The shares in Phorm still drop and this is an interesting post by one who sold today.
Not sure why Morgan dean and stanly invested in phorm it might bee the worst investment they have ever done.

A good read might have to sign up to read it but copyright will stop me pasting any here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/bu...gin&oref=login

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi all, newbie in the forum here but this has just got my dander up that I had to add my voice against these clowns. Forgive me if I'm posting already rehashed information (and for a long post!), but I thought you might like to see the mealy-mouthed response I have just received from Virgin in answer to my complaint about their jumping into bed with Phorm. Clearly they just don't get it and more importantly, don't care! Thanks for letting me vent...

Thank you for your e-mail dated 18 March 2008 expressing your concerns about the recent speculation linking your Internet usage with ?Open Internet Exchange? and Phorm.

We will soon be working with a company, Phorm, to provide some new online protection and enhancement features for our broadband customers.

Phorm is the company behind an innovative new system called Webwise.
Webwise helps give you a safer online experience by helping you avoid scam emails or websites, as well as making your online experience more relevant through advertising that matches your areas of interest.

Webwise has been designed from the ground up to protect our customers' privacy and anonymity. As the system only learns about topics of interest, it does this anonymously, ensuring their privacy is completely protected.
? Neither the web addresses, nor search terms they use are stored. They are purely matched to an advertising topic and then discarded.
? Webwise doesn't store their internet (IP) address or keep track of their browsing. The system or advertisers won't know who you are or the websites they've visited.
? No personally identifiable information such as email addresses, surnames, street addresses, or phone numbers are ever gathered.
? No sensitive or personal financial information, such as credit card numbers, login IDs, passwords or bank account numbers are ever gathered.


To reiterate, you won't be forced to use the system, and you will be given the choice to keep your internet experience exactly as it is now. As we get closer to launch we'll explain how this will work.
Webwise only replaces ads with more relevant ads, customers do not receive any more ads and certainly do not receive pop ups.

The customer?s privacy is totally protected, again to reiterate no personal information is collected and what we will track are search terms and URL`s visited, this information is not traceable back to the individual and is not kept or stored as unlike some other ad targeting technologies that already exist and utilise customer data. In addition, whole rafts of industry bodies and privacy experts have been engaged with regard to the implementation of ?Webwise?.

We will be as transparent and upfront with customers as we can; giving them every opportunity of not participating if that is what they want to do.

We are of course aware there are a number of `stories` being circulated, a lot of what is being touted is ill informed.

I hope this reassures over any concerns you may have and clarifies our position regarding this issue.

Please note if you reply directly to this e-mail your response will not be received.

Kind regards


Nathan Le Page
E-Contact Team
Virgin Media




complaintType : cust_services
complaintDetail : I have learned about your deeply misguided decision to sign up to Phorm. I find this a disgraceful abdication of your customers' right to privacy and request that you reconsider this policy with immediate effect. It is perfectly clear that the only beneficiaries to this are Phorm and Virgin Media, while the customers' privacy is blown open. Your disingenuous FAQs do nothing to alleviate the fact that you are cynically destroying a bond of trust between us and you. I am disgusted with your actions and will leave Virgin Media if you do not amend your policy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While it's not a Phorm related article, the register has posted the details that VM is dropping the premium rate tech support line.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03..._rate_dropped/

the section that is of interest
So if they're listening to customers they obviously know how we feel about Phorm. So the sooner they get rid of the very idea of it the better.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

far to complicated, your falling into the basic trap they hope everyone falls for.

you need to keep in mind, ITS YOUR DATA and your RIGHT to tell them what they can or cant do with it, NOT Theirs.

you dont need to explain your reasons why they must follow your instructions, only that they do as you instruct, as per section this and clause that under the so and so act, and notify you in writing by return post, the actions they have taken to abide by your official Notice.

if they dont act on your instructions and acknowlage your Notice, and infact do something silly like a email a link to some page, or a simple we are sorry for your complaint etc.

dont worry about it, its NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

after a set time limit has passed ( i forget 14 days,31 days or something , anyone clarify that?), you can then forward copys of your DPA Notice paper work to the Information commissoners office laying out your complaint of non compliance and have the DC act on the complaint.

the DC's office can do several things, not least (but not limited too), remove/revoke the ISPS data processing licence, putting them up shitcreak as it were....

its in the ISPs or indeed any other data processing companys interest, to make sure they act on your DPA Notice or they run the risk of not being able to process your bill due to a revoked DC licence....;)

as an End user/consumer you dont realise just how powerful a DPA notice can be, until now.

and funny thing is, we probably would never have realised if it were not the the banks and their charges forcing the UK public to finally learn their right under the legislation.

somehow i dont think the UKs ISPs can hope to finance any long term battle with the UK users, as they dont have anywere near the banks finantial clout etc.

you have a choice, run away from the battle, or write those registered letters, its your choice to let them roll you over or not. :shocked::rolleyes::shrug::banghead::tiptoe::walk:

weres Mr A when he's needed :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's the standard spin from the helpdesk. I got a reply from Ian Woodham, the VM Group Data Protection Officer which I posted at http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34508819

which offers a little less spin. I doubt he's expecting the response he's going to get though...

Still, it's a statement saying that nothing phrom phorm has been implemented.

Of course, if you go to any site signed up to OIX (e.g. The Grauniad) you will wet oix and webwise cookies. Others here are keeping an eye out for signs of Phorm infiltration.

We need to keep the anti Phorm campaign going. The ISPs won't retreat until they realise how this negative coverage is going to affect their brands and their income.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

40 calendar days for DPA (or at least for Subject Access Requests, I would assume it is the same for all communications).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sadly the Phorm share price is only down 6.58% today. We need another article or announcement from some official body/campaign group/website and then we can enjoy watching the stock price fall even further. I did email Liberty asking them if they had any comments or thoughts but so far have had no response from them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have just issued a data protection act letter to Virgin Media, 1 via registerd mail and 1 by email

Recived the standard we will get back to you email.

Hi Mr ++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks for the email you sent to us on 20 March 2008. We're on the case
and a member of our team will get back to you as quickly as possible,
usually within 48 hours.

Don't forget - if there's anything else you'd like to know, just log on
to our website. It's at www.virginmedia.com

Kind regards,

The team at Virgin Media

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I sent them an email about Phorm a few days a go and just got this reply

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've had something very similar, however my original e-mail included notice to terminate all services. In their reply they added that "as they are not using webwise they won't act on my notice" or words to that effect. I don't think it works like that, forcing me to be a customer!

It's innane - at the end of the months notice I will forward the original notice to them again and just cancel my DD. Typical telewest/virgin. What i'm not prepared to do is spend hours on the 'phone sorting this all out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Email 'official Notice' isnt valid for VM as they removed that electronic official notice option from the Virgin Media T&Cs a while back.

by the same token, Virgin Media cant now sent you any valid official Notice by Electronic means eather, it works both ways and the only option they have right now, is the paper and post way.

remember that, when they try and and use an Electronic pop up 'do you agree' type Explicit Consent form, its not valid.

unless they (have)put the Electronic 'official Notice' option back in their T&C, they are stuffed.

in which case you can again use Electronic Email to then send your 'official Notice'

the other ISP users should go read your current T&C and check it for the same reason, perhaps they dont allow for Electronic Official notice eather.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're better of calling them, tell them you want to cancel, and tell them why. As long as you are ouit of contract, you have then given them 30 days to act on your request.

Don't just cancel your DD, that could cause more problems.

GET the name of the person that you have spoken to, confirm that they have noted your account. Follow that upp with a letter, explaining you have requested that your account be terminated, the time and date you made the call, and who took it.

See what that does. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's why i sent it registered mail as well :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yep, i have to agree with that, its always better to send a (registered) letter.

it might also be wise to include a final notice, removing the ISPs right to collect,store,process or export any personal data in any way.

its been said before, the accounts department do like to keep billing closed contracts accounts and then sending the credit reference agencys these non existant contracts/closed accounts defaults and without even sending a 'default notice' to these closed accounts.....

you remove the right offically as their no longer contracted
to do so , and your covered with a paper trail.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The probably thought (reasonably IMO) that you wanted to cancel because you thought that phorm was being intorduced. seeing as its not they have not acted on your notice. Instead of making things difficult for yourselfd and eventually spendning much more time on the phone sorting it out. HOw about just sending another email explaining that you still want to cancel your services regardless of phorm being introduced???

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i cant seem to find the reference now, but i seem to recall seeing a text that stated the Phorm Kit was infact NOT accessable to the ISP techs/staff.

that it was infact, a closed system that Phorm personel and only they could telnet/remote access in to these boxes and administer as required.

but it was said that they would not do so unless authorised by the ISP staff....

its not in the
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?...2&pid=22777122

and its strange that that thread hasnt gone anywere given the contents such as this.

"by anticypher (48312) <anticypher@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Monday March 17, @04:37PM
"Here are the notes I took from a sales pitch to a client.

Although NDAs were passed around, all of the technical and business consulting staff refused to sign them, so this information is freely available and can in no way be considered a trade secret.

Some of my notes come from other people's observations in the ensuing PR war. "
...
"Phorm has addressed the main part of pesky privacy laws in Europe by "gifting" the collection equipment to the ISP using a standard 5 year depreciation schedule.

The interception and initial filtering kit officially becomes property of the ISP, but is installed, maintained, configured and run by Phorm's technical team.

If the equipment stays 5 years in the ISP's premises, then it becomes the full property of the ISP.

The ISP can claim to privacy oversight groups that the equipment belongs to them, and that all the personal information hasn't left their network should post-analysis show the customer has "opted-out" of passing the information to Phorm's China-based servers.

The data is still captured and analyzed, just not all of it is passed to Phorm.
"
...
"The problem I, and others, had with Phorm's plan was that they leave some kind of HTML trick code running in the browser session to track all subsequent web traffic and to allow them to intercept anything they believe to be relevant"

anyone seen and got the text reference for the no ISP personel access to the kit?.

and its strange given the ISP wont fully own the kit until 5 years is up.

PS, i noticed earlyer, PRphorm was reading but didnt take the time to comment on any posts since his last PR'ed post here ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is it the recent Q&A on badphorm.co.uk that you're looking for? Specifically questions 11 through 13?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The share price is only down 6.58% today so far today so maybe they think they have turned the corner and the fight back is running out of steam? If thats why they havent been active then they have made a big mistake. This isnt going to go away. No amount of PR, lies and deception will placate us. Only once this system becomes opt-in, with a complete bypass of phorms system for those who choose against opting in, will this issue die down.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

no , but ill find it if i can find some time, its the total oposit of this , the text said only Phorm personel had access and i think it mentioned BT ISP personal didnt get access.

it wasnt a Q&A but a tech comment, i think about 2 or 3 days ago.

but i do read and go out of my way to find the less main stream Phorm tech postings sites to try and get a better view so if its on one of them it might take a while.

that reason i want it is so we can try and collate a reference with times and dates to make it easyer to to see the true access of the partys involved collecting and messing with our
data.

---------- Post added at 18:46 ---------- Previous post was at 18:36 ----------

carrage returns are good ;)

i like the
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=LON:PHRM graph.

although it seems they bounced back a little bit later today, most try harder...


Ps.why are you 19 guests reading not registering and posting here to give your thoughts, the more the meryer, go on you know you want too...

and take part in the poll, its upto 26 now...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No worries, I'll look forward to reading it myself should you come across it again. :)

I just found a new article on the NY Times that has an interesting quote (may need to login to view):

Well don't I feel all happy and secure now? </sarcasm>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL, Chris just has to keep bringing up Phorm in all the headlines
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/20/weekly_0320/
Vista SP1 launched as Phorm declared illegal


The Register Weekly Digest has been put together to make your life easy.

---------- Post added at 19:00 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

LOL Yeah, heres its billing and a fair use bit... incase you didnt register.

"
A Company Promises the Deepest Data Mining Yet.
By LOUISE STORY
Published: March 20, 20.08

Amid debate over how much data companies like Google and Yahoo should gather about people who surf the Web, one new company is drawing attention � and controversy � by boasting that it will collect the most complete information of all.

The company, called Phorm, has created a tool that can track every single online action of a given consumer, based on data from that person’s Internet service provider."

GO Virasb Vahidi, the chief operating officer of Phorm and PRTeam....:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is hilarious :)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...n_phorm_clone/

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder why it is, but i get the feeling that VM & Phorm are treating us all like Mushrooms.
We are being kept in the dark & being fed bull***t.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Somebody came along and invested £3,509,110 at the last minute. That is a heck of a lot of money. Even then the price is down day on day. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:juggle: so which behavioral targeted ad do they send to which Esther Dyson :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They obvious have way more money than sense. Given the news from the US today that US legislators are insisting that the service -must- be explicitly opted in and Phorm's success relies on opting people in by default. The news in the NY Times is not really mainstream at the moment, but it is going to have a huge impact on Phorm's attempts in the US and is likely to hit the share prices very hard next week.

The person who bought all those shares at the last minute probably assumed the price would not drop much lower, I think they are going to be very surprised and disappointed. Either that or it was a shorter who had a large sale to honour (which means they may have made a packet just from that single trade).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you look on the LSE, you'll see that that transaction was cancelled immediately

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just completed a tracert to a website I am trying to help the owner solve some issues he has and noticed the change in IP number for first hop.

When you do a whois the ip you get
So what is going on!

Yes since the phorm outbreak I feel like am getting paranoid on who is watching me...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's the router talking to the Modem on the Modem's private internal IP I believe. Is why the IP is in the reserved private netowrk range. Its nothing on the external net.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks wil lower the alarm bells again I really can't wait to move ISP now..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's just wrong - a bill should be passed that states that consumers have a legal right to cancel a service by the same means that that they originally signed-up for it: All ISPs allow you to sign-up to their service online, so they should be forced to allow you to cancel it in the same way.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Again, I have to disagree with this unless someone actually has evidence to the contrary. The latency on that second hop is simply too high to be on the same device as the first. I don't use cable, I use ADSL and I have /29 subnet so I use static routing for all my IPs and each device has a public IP address so I don't use NAT -but- I still think that second hop is VM's gateway as opposed to your router/modem. I am not saying it definitely is, it could just be a case that the VM cable boxes are crap and have high latency at the network bridge.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For those late to the phorm party, here's some of the anti-phorm graphics that I've been making over the past week or so. You can find the rest HERE

Feel free to share them with as many folk as possible.


Userbars

userbar v2 slogan1 - 10kb - 300x19
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]


userbar v2 slogan2 - 10kb - 300x19
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1...rbarv22np6.jpg


userbar v1 slogan1 - 11kb - 350x19
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6...erbar11cf4.jpg


userbar v1 slogan2 - 11kb - 350x19
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/9...erbar12rx3.jpg




Avatars

av1 - 120x120
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/143...phormavqy6.jpg


av2 - 120x120
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/9...120x120mm2.jpg


av3 - 120x120
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5...120x120bm8.jpg




Signatures

sig1
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5...hormv11vm9.jpg


sig2
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6...hormv12ip4.jpg


sig3
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2...phormv3fo8.jpg


sig4
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4...rmsigv2wv9.jpg


sig5
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8...rmsigv2rn8.jpg


sig6
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/8...notwantmp1.gif


sig7
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/8...twantv2wa2.gif


sig8
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7...hormv15hz4.jpg


sig9
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/6...hormv16vb6.jpg




Business Card

Slogan1 - 160kb
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6...dv11ag7.th.jpg




Postcard

slogan1 - 360kb
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4...dv11rs8.th.jpg




Postcard Reverse Side

Reverse Side v1.1
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5...ev11rv3.th.jpg




T-Shirt - for print onto white t-shirts

3508 x 4961 - 779kb
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4...humbnaiaf1.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

carrage returns are good ;)

seriously Alexander, it really is the Wan side internal VM IP that VM give your modem, in my case the NTL250

2 23 ms 22 ms 18 ms 10.137.*
3 52 ms * 10 ms bagu-t2*
4 12 ms 7 ms 13 ms bagu-t2core-b-ge-wan22.inet.ntl.com

beleave it or not the NTL250 and VM255 are the ones rated for the 20Mbit service and they do run at that, its even been seen that they run at the full docsis1.1 30+Mbit.

BUT the internal WAN to LAN CPU processing part inside them is real slow sometimes.

the sammy STB is also in the simular private internal VM range if anyone on VM checks their STB IP settings/technical stuff IP address 10.118.* , these are pluged into the very same UBRs your CM plugs into.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Slow is an understatement, the latency on your "2nd" hop is almost as high as my terminating hop to the BBC (which has jumped through multiple hops before getting there).

But I take your word for it.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is a feature that has been present on a NTL/VM connection for many years, so I suspect it to be an engineering feature rather than something which is linked to the current stories. Could be that the modems are not giving very high priority to pinging back (especially to the LAN) as it's a bit pointless.

Plenty of VM Techs on here who should be able to give you definitive answer though should the question be posed.

---------- Post added at 20:38 ---------- Previous post was at 20:33 ----------

And the PR offensive increases, to a climax possibly?

http://www.prweek.com/uk/news/articl...-PR-fightback/

http://understrictembargo.wordpress....-of-pr-crisis/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This made me laugh

What reputation?? it is VM reputation that is sinking fast.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You can add a link to badphorm by using the following in your sig:

Replace the { } with [ ]

e.g.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Time to get to work again folks, lets see some anti Phorm PR on the following blog comments please:

http://understrictembargo.wordpress....-of-pr-crisis/

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You may like to edit your last comment on that blog (if possible)...

Change explicit content to explicit consent

;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh, if you insist:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No way to edit it unfortunately, I was already aware of it. I have only had 7 hours sleep so far this week and spent most of last night writing a paper on human rights abuses at Guantanamo Bay, followed by most of today in a meeting for a group project I am managing based around deploying Open Learning Labs into the community where the public can receive free IT training. So I am a little burnt out and despite reading everything 3 or 4 times before hitting submit, still seem to manage the odd typo.

I will take inspiration from the Phorm camp and try harder...

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

so we will be welcoming
ex-House of Commons media adviser John Stonborough ?

thats nice, but house of commons media adviser, how will that effect your average Broadband user.

"The company recently hired former Yahoo head of European PR David Sawday as its head of comms."

is this PhormPRTeam some of his co-ordination, hmmmm.

most of you wont be old enough or non mainstream to remember this, but this ISP/Phorm PR is looking more and more like the old Amiga Inc PR wars.

and let me tell you, thats NOT pritty, year on year the new and improved amiga PR machine keeps plugging away trying to pull the wool over the latest marks, i mean investors eyes , only to have the rabid ex-amigans go into the US court records and pull out any and all legal rulings and awards to educate the investors.

i have watched this dog and pony show for years, and they keep pulling out the popcorn to watch the latest show unfold, real funny at times when your bored.

it seems to me, if the ISPs/Phorm dont come to their censes soon and just pull the plug or massively re-structure to the real users benefit, YOU can be sure, once this hits the US, we shall see this very same pulling back the covers of every single legal ruling,company finances and much more, anything there is to find on every single person that gets involved in this, they will find and make known.

you dont want that , trust me..., the Amiga PR wars could be a small side show in comparison, if this ISP/Phorm/whoever-else gets going and you get on the wrong side of the US (and perhaps even the UK)BB users.

these two new lads dont realise what they are dealing with it seems.

ill be investing in lots of industial quantity popcorn real soon now ;)

if you have a few years spare heres a selection
http://search.virginmedia.com/result...e+moo+bunny&cr=

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Get on over and give the Phorm PR spin machine hell. Every time the slime tries to spin in public we need to respond in numbers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nice to know there are still people like you out there. You need to take the weekend off and sleep. :zzz:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can't go to bed, my 2 yr old son has stolen it, sofa for me again tonight. At least my flu is clearing up a little now.

Never mind Phorm stock, I should invest in coffee futures.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It looks like BT are responding to customer suggestions about how phorm should operate :-

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...rt=0&start=300

Lets hope VM start listening too

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually I find that thread almost too disturbing for words. Irrespective of opting in or opting out until they have consent from both parties (the browser and the publisher) this system is in criminal breach of RIPA. No way round this. Lets try and get this point out, it is very important.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, since I sent copies of the Slashdot article to Neil Berkett and Ian Woodham they have no excuse for saying they aren't aware of the reasons why customers are concerned.

Reading that page there, seems there's some concern that people have been posting under sockpuppet accounts and that it might have something to do with a PR team? Seems to be an attempt to "obfuscate the debate" as the slashdot posting pointed out...

I think such attempts here would be spotted. I certainly hope so...

Let me make it clear here that I am no fan of BT. If I have to leave VM it will be with extreme reluctance, but the only practical alternatives to VM involve having a BT line. The idea of paying any money to them is so incredibly offensive to me.

But I'm much less of a fan of Phorm and what they stand for, which is even more offensive and must be fought. The RIPA point must be made time and again and in numbers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and dont let LadyMinions linked NY times story /Phorm COO's (Chief Operating Officer ) public statement go un-noticed,
get it out there ASAP and watch the PR machine go in to overdrive.

"Quote:
“As you browse, we’re able to categorize all of your Internet actions,” said Virasb Vahidi, the chief operating officer of Phorm. “We actually can see the entire Internet.”

The company, called Phorm, has created a tool that can track every single online action of a given consumer, based on data from that person’s Internet service provider.”

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Over on the BT Beta suport forum, BT Spokesman Mark W has stated;

"I understand you might not be particularly trusting of myself and BT at the moment but this isn't a contradiction. What was being talked about in the quote there is that data would be mirrored but not profiled, what we're talking about now is that if opted out data would not even be mirrored. What we're aiming to have in the update next week is a set of diagrams and a walk through explaining how the system will work when it's live, I hope that this will make things a lot clearer for people."

So BT seem to be constantly modifying their position on how their opt-out will work, presumably as a result of pressure from their customers. Their current position appears to be that if a customer opts-out of the Phorm system, then that customer's web traffic will not be mirrored or profiled. This arrangement is the only one which could persuade me to stay with Virgin Media if they introduce Phorm's system to their network.

So what have you got to say, VM?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Done.

---------- Post added at 23:01 ---------- Previous post was at 22:53 ----------

Indeed that's my stance as well. I do not want my data to touch any equipment that has been installed in a Virgin Headend or Pop site that has anything to do with the Phorm system. That has been supplied by the Phorm company. That Phorm have any connection with what so ever.

If my data does then it is goodbye Virgin Media hello SKY, BT, Be Unlimited.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is there a simple web page anywhere that explains the key issues and what people should do about it?

I ask because, although I work in IT, this completely passed me by until I read the Berners-Lee article on the BBC site on Monday. Some Google work that evening brought me more up to date.

None of my collegues, nor anyone else I know has any idea about this.

It strikes me that this campaign needs to go a lot wider (remember the e-mail linked, Downing Street petition against road-use charging).

If I e-mail people I know about this, it would be useful to be able to refer them to a page that simply explains the issues and what to do. e.g. Sign the petition, query ISP, write to MP, send DP notice to ISP and e-mail their friends about it.

Most people I know would be concerned and I believe that only a mass campaign would kill this off for good.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?2

Should have most things you need, including links to the petition & various other sites...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many thanks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Take a look at The Register's link page to articles on Phorm at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_roundup/

Lots of great articles there to brief you on various aspects of the Phorm system

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:shocked:

I'm not shocked that Phorm does that, I'm shocked - in fact totally gobsmacked, that they've let this slip out. Those few words are the most damming to ever come out of Phorms mouth. Copy and past the above quote anywhere and everywhere, the more people know what Virasb Vahidi said, the better.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Blogtastic article by Sophos:

http://www.sophos.com/security/blog/2008/03/1187.html

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This bit is very good.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good stuff! I like the bit about

"A worrying thing is that the information of every single page visited by the end user is accessed, inspected and classified by Phorm and the user’s browsing habits are tracked. Although Kent Ertegrul claims that no information is stored that is clearly not true.

[we know that] Cookies can be, with some effort, tracked to a particular browser (on a particular machine) and even to the actual user (or user’s ISP account) if the ISP’s systems get compromised. What disturbs even more is the fact that some trials have allegedly been conducted without the consent of end users during June 2007. This is a significant privacy problem, although not much worse than privacy leaks we are exposed to while browsing sites like Google or Amazon. This comes down to the question of trust. I will be more inclined to trust companies with good reputation such as Amazon than companies like Phorm whose practices are somewhat questionable and whose previous products included potentially unwanted applications."

brackets and emboldening are mine.

As an IT professional of 13 years experience, Sophos' word carries a lot of clout. A lot more than any number of PR people Phorm may decide to employ.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Scrub that for CF, html code not allowed in sigs on this board unfortunately... :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Birmingham Post article:
http://www.birminghampost.net/birmin...5233-20637539/

Here is my email to the author:

Hi Chris,

First I wanted to thank you for bringing this story to the people of Birmingham (and your internet readership of course), it is a vital issue of civil liberties that everyone should be made aware of.

However, whereas the article was quite amusing and light reading (which is a good thing given the week we have had) it did fail to mention some critical points which your readership should know about.

Firstly, given the situation with regards to Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) and unlawful interception of communications, I feel it is of critical importance your readers should be aware of how Phorm stands with regards to RIPA. RIPA states very clearly that all parties in a communication must give their consent before interception of a communication is lawful. In the case of someone browsing the Internet, this would include the person doing the browsing and the organisation or individual (publisher) who's web site is being read. That said, this system could never be legal as current UK law stands and in fact would be a criminal offence.

This leads us on to the serious implications this has for users who "Opt In" by accepting new Terms and Conditions. Since it would be a criminal offence to intercept the communication without the consent of the "publisher" if a customer was to initiate a communication with a website that has not given it's consent to the interception, they could be liable for criminal action as they may be classed as complicit for initiating a communication they know is going to be intercepted (illegally).

Furthermore, it is in the interests of your readers to note that the government think tank for policy on privacy (Foundation for Information Policy Research (FIPR)) have stated in an Open Letter to the Information Commissioner that this technology is illegal in the UK under RIPA.

I think it is also in the interests of your readers to know that BT secretly trialled this technology in June 2007 without even attempting to obtain consent and when questions were asked when people noticed strange behaviours with their Internet connections, BT categorically denied any responsibility and advised their customers it must be spyware. In documents leaked from BT this week and a subsequent statement from BT, it has been confirmed that this secret test was actually being carried out. This raises very serious concerns into whether or not BT acted in a criminal fashion under RIPA. At face value it would seem that this is in fact the case given that even the non-authoritative response from the Home Office last week (which has been heavily criticised for being inaccurate in its interpretation of consent on behalf of the "publisher") clearly states that consent must be sought in order for the interception to be lawful. Again this is reiterated by FIPR.

If this is the case (which I firmly believe it is) then we have a clear example of why we need to protect these liberties in the first place. If criminal law is not enough to stop a corporation which in reality has enough money to pay for top legal advice, then where does this betrayal of our privacy rights end? Lets not forget this is also a Human Rights issue given our rights to privacy in our private lives and communications.

Some more sinister consequences of this system with regards to shared computers are outlined below.

One example is domestic abuse. Say for example a female victim of domestic abuse is searching for support groups or information about leaving her husband/partner and this happens to get picked up by the profiler because the sites she is looking at are not on the "blacklist". She spends several days doing this whilst her husband/partner is at work, then one night he logs on and starts browsing the net. He happens upon a site which is using the OIX advertising platform and sees ads related to his partner's/wife's recent browsing habits. We could potentially see tragic consequences, even deaths as a result of severe violent reactions to the discovery.

Other examples are child abuse victims, people with medical conditions they have kept hidden from the family etc. Even less "serious" scenarios where one's partner is looking for a birthday gift for you and you happen to use the computer after a profile has been built up could lead to upsetting consequences.

There is a lot that really doesn't seem to have been thought of when assessing the impact this technology could have on the more vulnerable members of our society and it simply must be stopped at all costs.

In closing, I thank you again for bringing this issue to the people of Birmingham and hope you consider the points I have raised above for any future article you choose to write on this issue.

Sincerely,

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL, i like that
http://understrictembargo.wordpress....-of-pr-crisis/
"
The Phorm Comms Team are none other than Citigate Drewe Rogerson.

So that’s not ‘Comms’ as an internet techie would understand it :-)

They have been assiduous in spinning round the tech forums trying as hard as they can to get the toothpaste back into the tube; and to an extent the tech forums have fallen into the trap of seeking technical knowledge about how Phorm is supposed to work.

Which is kind of like a French aristocrat debating the finer points of how the guillotine works with his executioner; it doesn’t matter how good it is or isn’t, it’s something you don’t want anywhere near your neck….

But I’m surprised the Phorm Tech/Comms/PR Team tipped up here; like ‘never kid a kidder’, I’ve always assumed you should ‘never spin a spinner’

Comment by Midnight_Voice March 20, 2008 @ 8:45 pm "

---------- Post added at 02:40 ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 ----------

;) , Charles Arthur is Simon Davies PR man of the hour, bless him.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo..._on_phorm.html
"
Simon Davies (of Privacy International, and 80/20 Thinking) on Phorm

The founder of Privacy International responds to criticisms of his role in Phorm's present publicity.
March 20, 2008 10:50 PM


The following comments come from Simon Davies, the lecturer at the LSE who has been a vocal critic of the government's plans for ID cards (earning the ire of ministers) and is a founder of Privacy International. He actually posted this comment elsewhere on the blog; we thought it deserved a more visible posting.
He writes:

....
"

---------- Post added at 03:54 ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 ----------

http://www.marketingpilgrim.com/2008...#comment-43815

at least two comments awaiting moderation so you might not see them (yet).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think you mean the BBCode for IMG tags, yes they are not allowed due to previous abuse of the system, i.e with members inserting massive images. html code is not allowed for security reasons.

You can still use images in signatures - The image needs to be uploaded and then inserted into the signature. Please refer to your signature options via the Usercp. If you need any assistance, give us a shout via PM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No worries Cobby, I got the clickable siggie to work in the end :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ooooh! How'd you do that then?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is the code used

{url=www.badphorm.co.uk}{SIGPIC}{/SIGPIC}{/url}

replace {} with square brackets []


Hope that helps :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So who else has written to their MP?

The last time I wrote to my MP was in 1967! However, this issue has wound me up more than a little.

I sent an email to my member of parliament, Dr Ian Gibson MP on the 18th Mar and received this reply on the 20th.

quote..

I agree with you that this latest development represents a serious threat to our civil liberties. I am happy to go on record as opposing this move from the internet service providers. I will also write to the Meg Hillier MP at the Home Office voicing my concerns at these latest developments and requesting that she look into the matter. I will forward any response I receive from the department as soon as I receive one.

..end quote

I not convinced it will do any good but the greater awareness of this the better.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have read this read daily from its conception, with fury, interest and a certain amount of awe at the reaction from users both of BT and Virgin.
I have registered only so that I can add my support, as you have all said pretty much all that needs to be said on the matter.

as a consumer, Virgin supply my entire communications package, TV, Phone and internet. I will move if they implement this in a way that I cannot CLEARLY and TOTALLY opt OUT without recourse to cookies. In effect, make it OPT IN or lose my £85 a month.
Its MY clickstream, you ain't having it.
As a web site owner, and hoster of clients websits, I am just as concerned at the amount of work I will have to do to prevent private postings, ecommerce ordering etc from being data-mined.
Personally I may be net-savvy, but I am no way tech trained enough to make this a simple task. Nor should I have to.

when I think of 'Joe Public' including my 74 year old Mum, bless her, who has enough trouble understanding how email works, I am shocked to the core that the governent is even considering allowing this at all!
it is their job to protect the average consumer, not ours!
It is clear to me, that Phorm,and the ISP's themslves are relying on the fact that people are too niave/net smart to see this for what it really is, A MASSIVE infringement of our personal privacy.

Keep Up the good work, pass the word wherever and whenever you can, cross post and link on every forum website you belong to regardless of what that webite is about, it concerns every user of the internet, and every website owner out there.

Don't get too sidetracked by the technical issues, its fine and right to want to understand how the system will work, and how it can be circumvented, but the main issue is it shouldn't be happening AT ALL!
I realise this post repeats previous views, however, the more people that say it, the more chance we have of being heard, and actually listened to.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Every person who registers and then posts in this thread has knocked another nail in the coffin of 121 media / Phorm

This has just been posted on the BT Phorm beta site This might relate to anyone on a BT ADSL provided service ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dont just limit the fightback to the UK. If we are truly to kill Phorms plans then we need to get the word out to friends in the US too. I am doing my best to keep american friends up to date with what is going on here and the potential implications for them when Phorm goes live there. If we can damage their plans in the US too then I think Phorms share price will fall further and they will find it harder to raise capital investment.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What has shocked me the most is the total news blackout that seems to be happening at Virgin Media. :shocked:

Bt has made a statement on the Beta site

Carphone Warehouse has made a similar statement

Here's Virgin Media's statement about the OPT IN OPT OUT

So is that an opt in or an opt out. :LOL: you decide

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thought the Louise Story article was quite interesting in that you get a hint of how Phorm are having to sell their product to Companies in the States. As she puts it "by boasting that it will collect the most complete information of all". You can only imagine the sales pitch once everyone in the room has signed the NDA.

No company, even Microsoft, would take going head to head with Google lightly. If all Phorm have to offer customers in the end is a random number and a profile hacked together out of surfing habits they have no chance. They have to be planning to offer more. Much more. I would love to be a fly on the wall at their sales pitch especially as they get to the part titled "5 years down the line". It is clear from the patent application that they intend to offer much more than random numbers and categorized keywords.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats the nub of the issue. As bad as the situation is now with what they are plannning just imagine how much worse it could get 5 years down the line if we acquiesce to their plans now. As important as it is for us to stop Phorm here in the UK, the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the war wont truly be won until they run into trouble in the US. The US will be their biggest market with the biggest earning potential for the company. If we can land a killer blow here and then follow it up with a killer blow in the US then the company will be done for and hopefully they will go bankrupt.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bloody Easter! No stock market today to keep me smiling at the degradation of the Phorm share capital. Sucks!

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We also have to guard if one gets away with it you can bet more will crawl out the woodwork with just as bad ideas.

If phorm gets such a noise bleed and get kicking into bankruptcy it would deter others from trying it. Would even be stark reminder of those like google that people will not accept irresponsible money making idea's.

We trust those who are in the internet industry to be responsible with our browsing we dont expect them to abuse there position.

People just dont like being force fed like an infant. We have a brain and can do our own research for latest TV, car. We dont need target adverts tell us.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

'won't look', is not the same as 'can't see', I don't believe anyone these days is not aware that any company out to make money will not do this in the future if we give them a foot in the door now, nobody, but nobody is that naive, thats why the tech issues although important, are not as imortant as stopping this in its tracks.
once a freedom is gone, you can't get it back. once a precedent is set, its all over.
and however lucrative adverts might be, I am sure that this is not what this is really all about, eventually, selling data to other companies whom it might interest is the real long term objective.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Console yourself with the fact that they are one place off the bottom of the months biggest downward movers...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Tell me about it. I miss clicking on the link every few hours and watching the share price tank. On a positive note though at least it gives time for more publicity, more research and more time for everyone to write to MPs, MEPs, Privacy organisations etc.

I am currently drafting a letter I intend to send to my MP and all the MEPs for my area. After that I intend to follow up my email to Liberty with a written letter. Still no response from them yet but hopefully a written letter will be more successful.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Help for the dislexic please.

Slightly off topic, but my wife is going to kill me..

I told her I was only searching the web for information on Phorm, but for some reason all these naked people, doing strange things to each other were poping up on the screen.

Help!!! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Although I'd love to see VM say something in reply to their customers queries and complaints re Phorm, I can understand them keeping quiet for now.

I bet BT now wishes they'd kept quiet - they have contradicted themselves, admitted they lied, and are seen to be headless chickens running around not knowing what to do or how to dig themselves out of the mess they've got themselves into.

VM? They've avoided all this by keeping mum. You can bet they're reading everything that's being said about Phorm, on here and elsewhere.

I'm sure that once we all know for sure if Phorm is legal or not (I know what we all think, but that's not the same), or what the outcome is of the ICO and other official reports (including don't forget the final report from 80/20 Thinking), as well as taking into account the obvious 'do not want' stance from their customers and joe public, then VM will make up their mind and tell us what's going to happening.

To me, VM's silence is reassuring, and If I were the MD, I'd similarly instruct all staff to keep it zipped for now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree, in part.
Although its frustrating that they have not issued an up to date statement, it is clear that they are more than aware of what is going on, they definately don't have their head in the sand over this, they are just avoiding making the same errors as BT, whilst avoiding making a definitve statement like CW, that at least shows some business sense.
As long as they realise that keeping quiet, is not going to make us go away, then all well and good......for now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've not seen this posted previously, but V1.4 of the Dephormation add On for Firefox is out.

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/

My thanks go to the authors and those involved with the project :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Missing Persons Notice:

Authorities are becoming increasingly alarmed by the disappearance of the PhormUKPRTeam. Authorities believe that they may have suffered a deeply traumatic psychological experience while trying to spin their way out of a firestorm of controversy regarding their clients spyware technology.

Have you seen PhormUKPRTeam? If so please telephone the PR Anonymous hotline with details of when and where you last saw them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's a simple move for Phorm to grab your IP as your machine pulls adverts from their servers matching token to IP. ISP's say this won't happen and we won't even mention ISP's matching IP to actual customer records for Phorm. I know this is just fantasy at the moment but the trouble ISP's have now, in addition to Phorm, is that I simply no longer trust them.

When the story first broke I was outraged not just about Phorm's plans but that my ISP has been complicit from the beginning. When exactly were they going to tell us the full details? Ever? It's clear that the PR machine hadn't even been fueled and the last thing they wanted was this story to get out without first dressing it in the warm fuzzy glow of "Webwise - the safer Internet experience"

I might, earlier, have accepted Phorm with appropriate safeguards for those who opt out but not anymore. I don't trust Phorm and I also don't trust my ISP anymore. The moment VM introduce Phorm in any way I'm off. All Virgin services will go not just BB.
I may go anyway, I feel like I have been stabbed in the back by some happy smiling old lady I just helped across the road. I hope it's all worth it for them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think I've found them, I've just logged in to my Blog to make an entry, and I found this waiting for moderation.

It's nice to know they're scouring everywhere to try and put their spin. Including my crappy blog :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Unfortunately the authorities can only search for missing individuals.

Team Phorm consists of 26 lawyers, spin doctors and probably the odd estate agent thrown in as well.

There were 25, but another joined a couple of days ago. At least I think that's when the vote at the top of this page changed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In some ways is sad to see the PR still peddling the same nonsense but in another way at least it means we are keeping them busy. They are of course right that the situation vis-a-vis RIPA is untested in law yet. What makes me smile widely is that the issue may not remain untested for long. The thought of those involved in the BT tests last year reporting them to the police makes me go all warm and fuzzy inside.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

He is right, Phorm is not illegal under RIPA -if- you ignore s2 and s3 of the legislation; which conveniently happen to be the pertinent sections of the legislation with regards to protecting the HUMAN RIGHTS of the public with regards the right to privacy in our private lives and communications.

However, since we have been told time and time again that IGNORANCE of the law is no excuse in the eyes of the courts, if they continue to IGNORE s2 and s3 we will jump on their every move and push harder and harder for criminal charges to be brought against Phorm and the Agent ISPs.

Rest assured, the secret trials by BT last June were criminal under RIPA and any deployment of Phorm -anywhere- in the UK would be equally criminal for as long as Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 exists in it's current phorm.

Want to opt in to Phorm? Welcome to the world of complicit behaviour. If you opt in you risk the chance of committing a criminal offence yourself for initiating a communication which you know is going to be subjected to interception. Your ISP will be making you a criminal.

(Most of the above is directed at the general public not the author of the post I linked to.)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm - you are missing the point - we no longer care. You will prise my surfing habits from my cold, dead hand.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander,

Many thanks for your reply to the post I got on my blog, I'm about to compile a new entry to reply to our friend :)

Would it be Ok to use extracts from your reply in my blog?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps sharing the letter with others might help them to also send copies to their MP and all EUMPs.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The most important point for me that the ISPs, Phorm and their PR bots miss time and time again is that the illegality of the system is largely of no consequence. If I decide that no-one can have any access to my browsing data, then that is where the discussion ends. There is no implied consent in any of the agreements I have with my ISP.
The fact that they are relying on untested legal issues is a matter of rank incompetance in a business dealing with such basic issues as privacy. The law and policy makers will nigh-on always side with the masses, otherwise at the next election they'll find themselves on the pavement. The sooner Phorms investors realise this and jump ship, the better.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Certainly.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OT: Your terms are acceptable;) (from the movie "Men In Black")

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My letter isnt very good as I rushed it. I should have probably spent time refining it but if others want me to post it here then I will gladly do so if the mods have no problems with that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

post it up, and we can all refine it, order it and lay out a clear message, then when it covers all the points needed we can all set a date and everyone posts it in collaberation all together, that would get someones attention surely.

you know like santa clause (section this, of the so and so act) ;) season.

Ohh and dont forget to include the EU in any of this, theres plenty of law there we can put forward too, not just UK legislation.

what does the EU data Commissioner think of all this ?, remembering he made it quite clear the other month,your IP address is personal data.

plenty to consider, not least commercial piracy, everyone in govt likes to talk about that dont they.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok here is the letter I have sent to all my MEPs:
Dear

I write to you today to draw your attention to a disturbing deal that has been done here in the UK between BT, Talk Talk and Virgin Media and an ex-spyware company called Phorm. This company (in its previous incarnation as 121 media) wrote a piece of spyware called People On Page which used rootkit technology to hide itself and make it incredibly difficult to uninstall. Recently Phorm has struck a deal with the 3 Internet Providers which means that it intends to place servers within these broadband providers network that will monitor users online actions in order to target adverts at said users.

Put simply, this is the online equivalent of the Post Office opening all your letters, reading them, then building a profile from what you wrote in order to send you better targetted junk mail.

In my opinion this deal poses a huge threat to online privacy and may very well be illegal under the Regulation of Investagatory Powers Act 2000. The Foundation for Information Policy Research recently wrote an open letter to the Information Commissioners Office arguing the Phorm system violates RIPA. Questions also remain as to whether this technology contravenes European legislation on privacy. So far over 8000 people have signed an online petition calling for the UK Prime Minister to investigate Phorms technology.

Useful information regarding the Phorm technology and its privacy and legal implications may be found by following these links:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/04/phorm_ripa/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03..._fipr_illegal/

The relevant petition can be found at this link:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

I would be grateful if you would take the time to look into this matter further and raise concerns with the relevant ministers of state and also in the European Parliament.

Hope you have a happy Easter.

Yours sincerely,
Edit: I used the writetothem website in order to do the letters. Its quick and efficient and saves time finding names and postal addresses.