Re: Brexit discussion
 

fantasy island there OB

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Any evidence to support that growth comparison? Reality is that the Eurozone has outperformed the USA for the last 2.5 years!
https://www.ft.com/content/8db37b0a-...9-9f94ee97d996

---------- Post added at 21:31 ---------- Previous post was at 21:30 ----------

Nail on the head, Dave! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZWErZjFzM

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

Meanwhile, Theresa May suggested today that the Irish border could be modelled on the US-Canadian one. Only problem - Ireland rejected this model six months ago as it's a hard border with armed guards. Doh!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...a-border-model

Re: Brexit discussion
 

OB doesn't need facts, as George says, you gotta have Faith :)

---------- Post added at 22:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------

I am not sure how you are blaming Labour for the mess that the Tories created? I guess it is a tribal thing ..

So let's discuss:

What parallel universe did this happen in? The Tories have "addressed the mounting feeling of resentment about the Westminster and EU elite"?

Come on, really? The degradation of the UK-owned manufacturing base, the lack of robust tax policies over the last decade to address offshore tax evasion, non-existent Corporation tax payments for globals, runaway housing inflation fueled by uncontrolled foreign investment (inc. money laundering), spending billions on projects intended to favour the City & big business, running down public services while watching the City & privatised national services taking billions out of this country, etc.

The list is endless to be honest. To say that the Tories are addressing the problems of the Elite is jaw dropping. They are part of this problem.

Also, while I am on my high horse :), we have a PM and Cabinet who, believe and campaigned against Leave not 18 months ago. They expressed their views many times on why Leaving is bad for this country. Now the very same people stand up and say the *exact* opposite and expect the country to believe them!

If they had a shred of honesty they should have resigned, all of them. Power is a seductive mistress so here we are, witnessing a group conversation on the road to Damascus.

Ah, you say, but they are only enacting the mythical "will of the people" and they must put aside they own personal convictions and carry out their sacred duty. Rubbish, I say! You cannot believe a word they utter.

It is the same thing as Monsieur Farage becoming Foreign Secretary in the case of a Remain win and enthusiastically representing the UK Government at the EU summit. No chance ...

Lastly, I am curious, why do you add a derogatory, personal insult when discussing someone you do not agree with?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No it’s not and far from it.

OB is correct.

Italy won’t be far behind us, by the looks of things, based off Eurosceptic parties gaining power in the elections yesterday. Itaxit a real possibility.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Didn't they say that about Austria, Hungary, France, Catalonia and the Netherlands too?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not after an election they didn't because Pro EU parties were elected after their Elections, in Italy, this is now not the case. Sure it's an Hung Parliament but Anti-Establishment & Anti-EU parties have the biggest collection of votes and will likely form the next government.

But I would not shrug off the failures in those prior elections, in most of those countries you mention...

In Austria: The far-right Freedom Party is now a central part of a right wing coalition government.

In France, Le Pen may have lost but her and her party still made it to the second round of the election with historic gains.

In Germany: A far-right party will, this month, become the official opposition party. The Alternative for Germany (AfD) will be boosted by official opposition funding, with seats on influential parliamentary committees.

Resentment of the EU is on the rise and so it should be.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The economy will benefit, Dave, because trade with the EU will be much the same as it is now plus we are going to trade more with the rest of the world.

---------- Post added at 07:32 ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 ----------

I apologise for including the USA. I had forgotten that the US had fallen back recently in comparison with the EU. However, it does not change the thrust of what I said about the slow economic growth of the EU compared with other large economies.

---------- Post added at 07:45 ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 ----------

Well, as far as the growing resentment of the EU elite is concerned, we were given a referendum, and the electorate gave their verdict.

As far as your rant about what, in your opinion, this government has not done, do remind yourself that the Northern Powerhouse is a Conservative idea (where is Labour's plan for the North?), tax evasion and tax avoidance is being tackled, whereas Labour did nothing when in power, housing inflation is being tacled through a variety of measures, including immigration controls and more house building, and public services have suffered due to the austerity measures that have been introduced following the financial mess that Labour left us in.

The fact that the Conservatives are now pretty united in taking forward Brexit is credit to them. Many did not want this, it's true, but at least they have listened to the electorate. You appear not to like that.

As for Ed Milliband, OK, fair dos, but he brings out the worst in people! :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It is a weak argument to always fall back and blame the party last in power 9 years ago. The clear and present danger is the current Government and the dangerous course it has set this country on solely due to internal party politics.

We can have a long discussion on the validity of the IndyRef but let's not, it has been done to death. That said, 37% of the Electorate gambling the long term structural & economic future of the country is not a closed book.

You raise points that are I am afraid just right-wing media spin:

- housing inflation is being tackled
- austerity was caused by Labour and not the City owned sub-prime banking crisis
- (this is my favorite) immigration controls

I guess you could call IndyRef "immigration controls" but it was a crude weapon. The controls were already there but the Government choose not to use them for reasons known only to themselves.

The Tories are trying to say things that will deflect attention from the obvious failing of the current free-market system but, truth be known, their heart is not really in it is it? It can't be, they are children of Thatcher, it is in the DNA.

The evidence is mounting: the old fool Corbyn with all his dubious baggage nearly won the last election by just pointing out the obvious.

Lastly, saying "that the Conservatives are now pretty united in taking forward Brexit is credit to them." made me spit out my coffee! The veneer is paper thin.

Here's the adult approach to negotiating the future of our country when it is on the precipice:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ianch, plenty of anomalies in your above post.

Corbyn didn’t ‘nearly’ win the election at all, he was thankfully, about 60 seats short.

This 37 % is a Fake figure because people ineligible to vote or could not be bothered, cannot be included in any so called percentage of the population of the UK of a total vote, either way, it does not matter. Leave won and it is a closed book, we are leaving.

---------- Post added at 09:44 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

Agreed. They certainly did. 17.4 Million out of about 33 Million.

Leave had a over a Million more votes. Those who bothered to register to vote and actually voted, made their voice heard. Remain came up short. Those who were not eligible or could not be bothered to vote do not count in any so called percentage. This is just another weak attempt by Remainers to delegitimise a very legit and legal, democratic process.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

WSo the fact that Labour left a financial mess for the Conservatives (as they did in 1979) isn't relevant to where we are now? I'm sorry, but that is the whole reason for the austerity measures that had to be taken. You may wish to ignore facts that are inconvenient to you, but really!

Once again, I am not blaming Labour for the sub prime issue that caused the financial crisis, of course not. But Labour with their financial mismanagement of our economy raided every budget and spent their way through every financial device they could think of. They raided our pensions, created more debt and didn't think of the consequences. When the financial crash came, there was no money available to protect us against the full impact, and the rest is history. You may try to ignore that little inconvenient truth, but this is a gentle reminder that non-Labour voters have not forgotten.

Similarly, you want to ignore the referendum, for reasons best known to yourself. It happened, and the electorate voted to leave, so get over it. I understand you might have misgivings, but throwing your toys out of the pram because it didn't go your way is not going to help and cuts no ice with me. The government are simply implementing the will of the electorate, even though some started off with a heavy heart. That is democracy in action. The EU would have had us call another referendum because it was not 'the right result', which of course would have been for 'More Europe'. :rolleyes:

In case you haven't noticed, Theresa May is going all out to get more houses built and is now putting pressure on those developers who are holding onto land. Where I live, there are huge housing developments going on all around, and sadly destroying our countryside. This, together with lower immigration levels, will tackle house inflation, so I don't know why you can't see that.

As for the free market system, this is what brings the wealth into the country that enables us to pay for the services we receive. Imperfect it may be, but it works, unlike Communism, which has failed everywhere it has been practised. Again, Labour never tackled the abuses such as tax evasion, so they are in no position to criticise the Conservatives for their considerable efforts in trying to put this right.

Whatever you may say, Theresa May has done her best to make the Brexit decision work and she has achieved unity in her party on this issue, which is no mean feat. Which is more than Labour has done.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Quick question - which measure are you using to compare the EU growth. I checked the OECD figures comparing the EU, the Eurozone and the G7 in both quarterly and year on year growth and the figures look OK - http://www.oecd.org/sdd/na/QNA-GDP-Growth-Q317-Eng.pdf

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Seconded and I requested it earlier too. It's more constructive to have the sources to hand.

---------- Post added at 12:44 ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 ----------

Project Fear?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43300201

Re: Brexit discussion
 

In addition to wanting us to drop agriculture standards, losing BA's ability to operate in the states as a 'first-party' operator (i.e preference to American airlines) they also want us to drop name protection so they can sell 'Scotch': https://www.scotsman.com/news/us-lob...isky-1-4700965

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Some sobering facts for those Brexiters who staked their reputations on the US giving us a good deal.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

:LOL: staking our reputations on . . . really?

You seem to find it extremely difficult to grasp that many of us wanted OUT of the European club that many of us think have no reputation left at all :p: