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-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

OLD BOY 03-09-2021 19:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36091985)
A percentage of his Brexit posts do you're right, However, a percentage of them are so hysterically funny or misguided that he almost comes across as a character from 'the late night mash'
Clearly, you believe that you know better than the majority of the British public, who want Brexit to be a success.

You really need to get over yourself. Time will prove me right and you wrong. In the end, the evidence will be undeniable.

Once again, you are insulting me because you don’t actually like being challenged on your negative remainer views.

Sephiroth 03-09-2021 19:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092012)
People were sold a pig-in-a-poke. I'd take it up with Redwood if I were you, maybe ask for a refund.
Not at all. People wanted out of the EU and expected glitches and gremlins in the early months/years.

That some of the more stupid sales pitches didn't come to fruition has nothing to do with the wish to be out. People aren't that stupid as to believe the hype.


OLD BOY 03-09-2021 19:49
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36091986)
Whilst it's true that Old Boy has been rather forgetful of late on this thread (qv Boris's comments on the Brexit deal and the forgotten technological issues that MrMistoffess highlighted) and I'm sure he appreciates your neighbourly concern, I'm really not the right person to advise whether he sees his GP or not.

People's opinions tend to come up for for criticism a lot when they've been built largely upon incorrect information. No one's perfect and I've rightly been called out for this too but that's why his recent postings here have met with the reception they have. And some posts do have a Comical Ali feel to them, which I'm sure he would be the first to acknowledge. :D
You need to do some more research before criticising other people’s posts, Andrew. The main difference between Boris Johnson’s deal and Theresa May’s was that he abolished the backstop. And this is what he said of the Theresa May deal:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...ys-brexit-deal

He proceeded because it was the only way of getting Brexit done by the end of the year. I have not misremembered. Look at his tweet in that link.

‘I have been and remain intensely critical of the deal. But we have a choice to make now, and that means choosing between options that actually exist. I have come to the sad conclusion that neither this government nor this parliament is willing to leave with no deal.’

And I have not forgotten the technical issues either. We can overcome this problem, but the will needs to be there on the EU side. In the meantime, we could have a straight forward and secure system of packaging and labelling which would overcome the questions relating to the transitional period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36091985)
A percentage of his Brexit posts do you're right, However, a percentage of them are so hysterically funny or misguided that he almost comes across as a character from 'the late night mash'
Nah, you are just in denial that we can ever make a success of Brexit. We will overcome these initial problems, one way or another, and then you will see all your predictions about Brexit come undone.

The more nonsense you spout now, the more it will all come back and haunt you in due course.

That’s OK. I can wait.

1andrew1 03-09-2021 20:36
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092024)
You need to do some more research before criticising other people’s posts, Andrew. The main difference between Boris Johnson’s deal and Theresa May’s was that he abolished the backstop. And this is what he said of the Theresa May deal:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...ys-brexit-deal

He proceeded because it was the only way of getting Brexit done by the end of the year. I have not misremembered. Look at his tweet in that link.

‘I have been and remain intensely critical of the deal. But we have a choice to make now, and that means choosing between options that actually exist. I have come to the sad conclusion that neither this government nor this parliament is willing to leave with no deal.’

And I have not forgotten the technical issues either. We can overcome this problem, but the will needs to be there on the EU side. In the meantime, we could have a straight forward and secure system of packaging and labelling which would overcome the questions relating to the transitional period.
That's all very interesting but 100% irrelevant. You constructed an entire argument around your misplaced belief that Johnson had criticised his own Brexit deal whereas he criticised May's. Seph acknowledged that Johnson had not criticised his own deal at the time as well and I even provided a link to the Br'Express article reporting his announcement of the deal.

The transitional period is over Old Boy. We left the Single Market and from 1st October we will be inspecting EU imports.

What technical issues does your suggestion of labelling provide, and what labelling do you mean given that goods are labelled and now require extensive documentation when being exported to the EU?

---------- Post added at 20:36 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092023)
Not at all. People wanted out of the EU and expected glitches and gremlins in the early months/years.

That some of the more stupid sales pitches didn't come to fruition has nothing to do with the wish to be out. People aren't that stupid as to believe the hype.

It was originally gritches and gremlins in the early days and weeks. Now it's become months and even years! When will it become decades and centuries?
You seem to be a tad unhappy about the Irish situation though, and a tad idealistic in expecting a country backed by the large EU bloc to give in to the UK.

Sephiroth 03-09-2021 20:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092032)
<SNIP>
It was originally gritches and gremlins in the early days and weeks. Now it's become months and even years! When will it become decades and centuries?
You seem to be a tad unhappy about the Irish situation though, and a tad idealistic in expecting a country backed by the large EU bloc to give in to the UK.
I'm totally realistic and far from idealistic. The Brexit situation is far from ideal. But the way I'd play it (admittedly sat at my office chair at home) is to squeeze Ireland. The threat of scrapping the NI Protocol is a threat to the Irish economy, something they dread more than anything else (perhaps other than having to put corporation tax up!). It's then a blinking game.

I want my Guvmin to play this right by not allowing th NI Protocol to stand in its present form.

Mad Max 03-09-2021 20:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092040)
I'm totally realistic and far from idealistic. The Brexit situation is far from ideal. But the way I'd play it (admittedly sat at my office chair at home) is to squeeze Ireland. The threat of scrapping the NI Protocol is a threat to the Irish economy, something they dread more than anything else (perhaps other than having to put corporation tax up!). It's then a blinking game.

I want my Guvmin to play this right by not allowing th NI Protocol to stand in its present form.
:D

mrmistoffelees 03-09-2021 21:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092022)
Clearly, you believe that you know better than the majority of the British public, who want Brexit to be a success.

You really need to get over yourself. Time will prove me right and you wrong. In the end, the evidence will be undeniable.

Once again, you are insulting me because you don’t actually like being challenged on your negative remainer views.

Nope, as per usual you only selectively consider what you wish to reply to.

I’ll fully admit I’m a remainer, however if you bother to review my posts you’ll see that I’ve repeatedly said that now Brexit has been done we need to make it a success. That success however needs to be based on realism. Not head in the clouds dreaming as you demonstrated with your earlier posts regarding customs technology.

---------- Post added at 21:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092024)


And I have not forgotten the technical issues either. We can overcome this problem, but the will needs to be there on the EU side. In the meantime, we could have a straight forward and secure system of packaging and labelling which would overcome the questions relating to the transitional period.



Nah, you are just in denial that we can ever make a success of Brexit. We will overcome these initial problems, one way or another, and then you will see all your predictions about Brexit come undone.

The more nonsense you spout now, the more it will all come back and haunt you in due course.

That’s OK. I can wait.
As before there will be a technological solution but it’s not available YET

We may well end making a success of Brexit and contrary to your beliefs I hope we do, as the alternative would be very grim indeed.

Let us not forget, many brexiteers have stated repeatedly that we don’t need the EU or that they needed us more than we needed them. These seem people are now whinging that rhe EU aren’t playing fair.

Well, nows the UK’s chance to prove it doesn’t need the EU. I have to say however that it’s not going very well so far.

1andrew1 03-09-2021 22:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092040)
I'm totally realistic and far from idealistic. The Brexit situation is far from ideal. But the way I'd play it (admittedly sat at my office chair at home) is to squeeze Ireland. The threat of scrapping the NI Protocol is a threat to the Irish economy, something they dread more than anything else (perhaps other than having to put corporation tax up!). It's then a blinking game.

I want my Guvmin to play this right by not allowing th NI Protocol to stand in its present form.
If you're being realistic and not idealistic, what can we offer to Ireland in return for them agreeing to a worse Northern Ireland Protocol? They've got the EU behind them. The EU can make things difficult for our exporters to the Continent if Ireland felt we were acting in a perfidious manner.

Realistically, what cards do we honestly hold that we've not played yet?

TheDaddy 03-09-2021 22:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092022)

You really need to get over yourself. Time will prove me right and you wrong. In the end, the evidence will be undeniable.
How much time, Rees Smug reckons 50 years...

Sephiroth 03-09-2021 22:43
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092065)
If you're being realistic and not idealistic, what can we offer to Ireland in return for them agreeing to a worse Northern Ireland Protocol? They've got the EU behind them. The EU can make things difficult for our exporters to the Continent if Ireland felt we were acting in a perfidious manner.

Realistically, what cards do we honestly hold that we've not played yet?
If we dump the NI Protocol, the Irish economy will be in great danger. I suspect that's the only card we hold. EU retaliation would likely be punishment through repudiation/suspension of the trade deal. But at least the gloves will be off and we'll all know where we stand.

In particular, the GB/UK situation will be normalised.

1andrew1 03-09-2021 22:57
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092042)
Nope, as per usual you only selectively consider what you wish to reply to.

I’ll fully admit I’m a remainer, however if you bother to review my posts you’ll see that I’ve repeatedly said that now Brexit has been done we need to make it a success. That success however needs to be based on realism. Not head in the clouds dreaming as you demonstrated with your earlier posts regarding customs technology.
Agreed - pretty much everyone in the UK wants it to be as successful as possible regardless of which party or way they voted in the referendum. But wishful thinking or blind faith hasn't and doesn't solve the Brexit Irish border issue.

---------- Post added at 22:57 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092068)
If we dump the NI Protocol, the Irish economy will be in great danger. I suspect that's the only card we hold. EU retaliation would likely be punishment through repudiation/suspension of the trade deal. But at least the gloves will be off and we'll all know where we stand.

In particular, the GB/UK situation will be normalised.
All I think we can offer Ireland in return for any concessions is international support on its low Corporation tax rate and perhaps some money for cross-border initiatives and a loan of Gareth Southgate. ;)

A hard border Irish border and the potential for terrorism which is a consequence of what you suggest is not normalising matters. And that's without the huge negative economic impacts coming from the situation. The EU would likely be on hand to bail out Ireland but who would support us?

I believe the situation you hope for is clearly unrealistic.

OLD BOY 04-09-2021 11:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092032)
That's all very interesting but 100% irrelevant. You constructed an entire argument around your misplaced belief that Johnson had criticised his own Brexit deal whereas he criticised May's. Seph acknowledged that Johnson had not criticised his own deal at the time as well and I even provided a link to the Br'Express article reporting his announcement of the deal.
You need to concentrate more, Andrew. It is not at all irrelevant. I have posted the tweet he sent out in that link. So he didn't like May's deal one bit. He realised, however, that the only way of getting Brexit done by the date he had promised was to remove the worst part of it - the backstop. Further changes would not have been possible to get this deal as he wanted within the timescale.

Of course he hailed the result of the changes he made, as he wanted the thing passed! But the tweet made clear he was having to lump it for the most part. I also recall reading Boris saying that other aspects of the deal could be changed over time once out of the EU.

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092032)

The transitional period is over Old Boy. We left the Single Market and from 1st October we will be inspecting EU imports.
What a ridiculous thing to say! Of course the transitional period is not over! The whole deal has yet to be implemented (as you admitted in that very sentence (highlighted) and things are still having to settle down. There are still many issues to be resolved.

The Northern Ireland border issue is still going to take some months yet before we manage to make this work, for example.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092042)
Nope, as per usual you only selectively consider what you wish to reply to.

I’ll fully admit I’m a remainer, however if you bother to review my posts you’ll see that I’ve repeatedly said that now Brexit has been done we need to make it a success. That success however needs to be based on realism. Not head in the clouds dreaming as you demonstrated with your earlier posts regarding customs technology.

---------- Post added at 21:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------



As before there will be a technological solution but it’s not available YET

We may well end making a success of Brexit and contrary to your beliefs I hope we do, as the alternative would be very grim indeed.

Let us not forget, many brexiteers have stated repeatedly that we don’t need the EU or that they needed us more than we needed them. These seem people are now whinging that rhe EU aren’t playing fair.

Well, nows the UK’s chance to prove it doesn’t need the EU. I have to say however that it’s not going very well so far.
The EU is still posturing and trying to screw us into the ground. Only when all this jostling ends and we finally have an agreement that both sides agree with will normal relations start to be established.

Your point about technical solutions not yet being available is another lie being put about by those who want to see us fail. Of course they are there, and New Zealand have already found such a solution for their exports, as my link showed.

---------- Post added at 11:21 ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092065)
If you're being realistic and not idealistic, what can we offer to Ireland in return for them agreeing to a worse Northern Ireland Protocol? They've got the EU behind them. The EU can make things difficult for our exporters to the Continent if Ireland felt we were acting in a perfidious manner.

Realistically, what cards do we honestly hold that we've not played yet?
Seph has addressed that already. Ireland is not in the best position if we pull out.

---------- Post added at 11:22 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36092067)
How much time, Rees Smug reckons 50 years...
Don't tell me you are giving credence to that man in your desperation to prove yourself right! Now that is funny!

---------- Post added at 11:31 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092069)
Agreed - pretty much everyone in the UK wants it to be as successful as possible regardless of which party or way they voted in the referendum. But wishful thinking or blind faith hasn't and doesn't solve the Brexit Irish border issue.

---------- Post added at 22:57 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------


All I think we can offer Ireland in return for any concessions is international support on its low Corporation tax rate and perhaps some money for cross-border initiatives and a loan of Gareth Southgate. ;)

A hard border Irish border and the potential for terrorism which is a consequence of what you suggest is not normalising matters. And that's without the huge negative economic impacts coming from the situation. The EU would likely be on hand to bail out Ireland but who would support us?

I believe the situation you hope for is clearly unrealistic.
Crikey, you could have fooled me! I could almost hear your hands rubbing with glee at every single problem that we have had with leaving the EU!

Realistically, Ireland will have a real problem if we start refocussing our trade away from them, because we are their main trading partner. They have a lot to lose if we decrease our imports from them and increase agricultural trade with Australia and New Zealand, for example. And when we eventually get a trade deal with the US (which is unlikely with Biden in power), that would make things even worse for Ireland.

Obviously, Ireland is pushing for the best deal from their perspective, but if they push too far they will be miscalculating - big time.

TheDaddy 04-09-2021 12:24
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092095)

Don't tell me you are giving credence to that man in your desperation to prove yourself right!

Riiiiiiiight you're the one making bold statements about being proven right but when asked for some detail you can't manage it, you've been listening to bozo to long, he doesn't do detail either, might have just been nice to know if you thought you'd be proven right in any of our lifetimes or not

mrmistoffelees 04-09-2021 13:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092095)
You need to concentrate more, Andrew. It is not at all irrelevant. I have posted the tweet he sent out in that link. So he didn't like May's deal one bit. He realised, however, that the only way of getting Brexit done by the date he had promised was to remove the worst part of it - the backstop. Further changes would not have been possible to get this deal as he wanted within the timescale.

Of course he hailed the result of the changes he made, as he wanted the thing passed! But the tweet made clear he was having to lump it for the most part. I also recall reading Boris saying that other aspects of the deal could be changed over time once out of the EU.

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------



What a ridiculous thing to say! Of course the transitional period is not over! The whole deal has yet to be implemented (as you admitted in that very sentence (highlighted) and things are still having to settle down. There are still many issues to be resolved.

The Northern Ireland border issue is still going to take some months yet before we manage to make this work, for example.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------


The EU is still posturing and trying to screw us into the ground. Only when all this jostling ends and we finally have an agreement that both sides agree with will normal relations start to be established.

Your point about technical solutions not yet being available is another lie being put about by those who want to see us fail. Of course they are there, and New Zealand have already found such a solution for their exports, as my link showed.

---------- Post added at 11:21 ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 ----------



Seph has addressed that already. Ireland is not in the best position if we pull out.

---------- Post added at 11:22 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------



Don't tell me you are giving credence to that man in your desperation to prove yourself right! Now that is funny!

---------- Post added at 11:31 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------



Crikey, you could have fooled me! I could almost hear your hands rubbing with glee at every single problem that we have had with leaving the EU!

Realistically, Ireland will have a real problem if we start refocussing our trade away from them, because we are their main trading partner. They have a lot to lose if we decrease our imports from them and increase agricultural trade with Australia and New Zealand, for example. And when we eventually get a trade deal with the US (which is unlikely with Biden in power), that would make things even worse for Ireland.

Obviously, Ireland is pushing for the best deal from their perspective, but if they push too far they will be miscalculating - big time.

My point about technical solutions is a lie ? When you yourself admit the required API is not yet available ? Never mind the surveillance/reimbursement systems which do not exist yet.

You need to get the complan dribbles wiped off your chin. You’re a mess

OLD BOY 04-09-2021 14:08
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36092101)
Riiiiiiiight you're the one making bold statements about being proven right but when asked for some detail you can't manage it, you've been listening to bozo to long, he doesn't do detail either, might have just been nice to know if you thought you'd be proven right in any of our lifetimes or not
Not sure what you are talking about. I have provided links and explanations. You just don’t want to hear them.

The fact that you have not absorbed the information I have given does not justify you not accepting it, but I guess that’s the way it is.

We will just have to let this play out.

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092103)
My point about technical solutions is a lie ? When you yourself admit the required API is not yet available ? Never mind the surveillance/reimbursement systems which do not exist yet.

You need to get the complan dribbles wiped off your chin. You’re a mess
The API is simply a software bridge that enables two systems to talk to each other. It is not a technological barrier.

Every time you check information on an app on your mobile, you are using an API.

None of these problems are beyond our existing competencies. You are portraying all this as if it were science fiction.

And incidentally, your escalating rudeness is childish and betrays your increasing desperation to prove to everyone that we are doomed to failure.


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