Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Hugh didn't mention school. Neither did I. Hugh just mentioned this country and how we reflect on our history and that is a much wider discussion that just what we teach in basic history lessons.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Hey you're right, i guess we're all related to some slimy thing that crawled out of the primal ooze . . . unless, like me, you're the distant offspring of aliens who crashed near Sherwood forest in 1632 . . but we don't like to talk about that in case you get agitated :p:

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

More statues some people want removed.

https://www.toppletheracists.org/

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Yep, mob mentality rules.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Nelsons Column, another monument supposedly lined up for termination by black skynet. Clearly depicts black sailors in the battle, fighting for Britain.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The statue of slave trader Robert Milligan has now been removed from West India Quay

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

And there are reasons for that. Whatever else Nelson achieved, he was pro the status quo of the slave trade:

https://www.historyextra.com/period/...rce-dark-side/
Now the context of that is that within his strata of society, that was the prevalent view. However it shouldn't now stop us from re-evaluating how we celebrate historical figures with additional knowledge.

Should all monuments to those who held views we don't now agree with be taken down? No. Should we have reasoned and rational debate about them? Yes.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.” ― George Orwell.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

“Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.”
― George Orwell, 1984


“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date.”
― George Orwell, 1984

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I don't remember what that is from, it's been a while since I read Orwell, but that point could be argued either way.

After all, what is being argued for now is a greater understanding of our history. To start talking about slavery, racism and empire in a way that we typically have not. The people who've been destroyed are not those whose crimes nevertheless inspired statues but those who've been written out of history because we would rather not address what happened to them.

Besides, Orwell was not a fan of Empire and Imperialism and wrote against it often. I am not sure he is the best author to cite when discussing this.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The guardian has literally been talking about this stuff my entire life. To claim otherwise is bullshit.

Should we take down Alfred the great because he killed Viking hostages?

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

You seem aware of that already and so have context around his life and history.

How many people know that Nelson was pro slavery for instance. Or that the other people that are being mentioned when it comes to their statues were directly connected to the slave trade.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The Guardian is perceived as a pretty left-wing and liberal paper for doing so (amongst other things) but good for them I guess. However, it's certainly not an example of us destroying our history to discuss it more.

As people have pointed out the toppling of the statue of Colston adds to our history now, people are talking of him as being a slave trader as opposed to just a philanthropist. I am guessing actually that a lot more people know who he is and what he did now than they did a week ago. The statue itself will likely end up a museum to further educate people into his and our history.

The people who removed him don't want his name gone from the history books, they want people to know precisely who he was.


My view on statues is that it depends on why they're there in the first place. Almost everyone in history will have had racist views or otherwise 'problematic' views but if they're being commemorated for something else then that achievement still stands. As I said earlier Churchill's racist comments are insignificant compared to what he did so vandalise his statue was both stupid and morally wrong. Nelson is there for different reasons as well. Most of the founding fathers of America had slaves but given they founded America then their moments remain whilst those who led the confederacy are taken down.

To be honest I am rather unbothered if these statues remain or not. My own view is that our history is what it is, we can't go back and fix it all, but we should discuss the parts that are bad more than we do. If it takes the statue coming down then fine but I would also be fine with the statue being recontextualised to highlight the link to slavery for example and if it is taken down I would rather it not be done by a crowd of people like this.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

that monument is part of black history, it depicts black people fighting at Trafalgar.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The insanity and censorship continues ;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52983319

Personally I never liked the show, not my kind of humour, but this is just moronic.