Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

This is all getting a little tedious, next time he goes to sleep we extradite him, let's hear what he has to say about sleeping people and consent then

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

I was wondering you would jump into this Matt D, as it was your bizaare notions of what makes a person guilty of sex crimes that spurred me into this discussion.

Having sex with someone whilst asleep is beyond weird, and not something I can at any level relate to. I think having sex with a sleeping partner could also be rape. However, I wouldn't go so far as to automatically assume rape (as you do) - as I clearly stated in my original post that you referred to. Context is the word here Matt.
I never stated it couldn't be "rape", just that it wasn't for a third party (such as yourself or myself) to automatically infer rape. Consent can be given the night before, you know.

Wooah, certainly no pun intended but that's somewhat below the belt there.:confused:
I mean yes, after all since I'm merely inferring that it is up to the woman (in this case) to decide whether or not she's been raped and not you (in this case) then clearly I must think that marital rape is A-okay. She is the man's property after all... :rolleyes:

So that's what you think of me?
Well here's what I think. I think it's men like you with your overly simplistic logic and dogmatic attitude to women that have given all us men a bad name for decades. Since, is it you (in this case) who's treating the woman like she's property and can't make her own decisions, as you have decided for her (benefit) and made it clear that she could not have consented and she was raped whether she thinks so or not, the pretty little defenseless thing.

If this were back in 1840, you'd be dictating that if a woman's vag lubricates during sex then it isn't rape. Of course you know better now since you're armed with more knowledge, but yet your approach and attitude remains the same.

It may surprise you to know, a woman can decide for herself whether she was raped or molested without your help. Same applies to all people, not just women.

However, there is a situation where your approach does apply and should apply. In the case of a mentally retarded person being awoken to having sex, but yet not being able to understand what rape is. Then in that case, your approach will come in very handy. We could use you then.

Until then, let adults decide for themselves.


See above.

If only.

Does what you are inferring not go without saying? I mean it's rather obvious, yes? But you seem to think that in order for a couple to have sex, one partner (the male in this case), must have a written invitation.
Many couples develop a feel as far as how far they have consent.

And also, lets not forget that Assange has already denied all these claims anyway.

I'm not comfortable with the "You" in the sentence as this has nothing to do with me, but I'll assume it's an oversight on your part.
I agree that a person can't just automatically assume such things. But you have to remember that couples get up to all sorts of things, and rarely does one partner ask "permission" before doing so.

Well that is up to your wife to decide, not me (as a third party). That's where we differ.

Consider also:

Assange has denied all the allegations.

Hold on there. I never read that she claimed rape, or that consent was not given. I've only read that she alleges she was asleep, but not that she complained or stated that Assange didn't have consent previously in one way or another.

Well, considering the way you worded the above, and your interpretation of the word "consent" (possible written invitation), then yes.

If indeed a person does not have verbal consent, then clearly we're talking potential rape. But again, that is up to the "victim" in this case to decide as we don't really have all the sexual details. And from Assange's track record, I'm not sure I want to read them.
Maybe she woke him up by having sex and he thought he'd return the favour?
Seems a bit of a stretch, but until we hear his side of the story it's kinda hard to draw any definitive conclusions.

There sure is a difference, and I made it clear I was referring specifically to the issue of consent, in which case there is not. A sleeping man can give just as much consent to being fondled as a sleeping woman can consent to being penetrated. Fondling and penetrating someone sexually without consent are both crimes and can result in prosecution, which was the pretext for my example.

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

All very interesting, and all utterly besides the point. His extradition has been affirmed, confirmed and reaffirmed at three increasingly senior levels by our independent judicial system. Assange must go to Sweden. All these arguments about what constitutes rape are for the Swedish authorities.

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

....only in this case it wasn't. Pretty good grounds to be suspected of rape I think.

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

Who should infer rape - the female complainants?

Re "consent can be given the night before" - it wasn't, for the unprotected sex.

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

A notion he shares with multiple British and Swedish judges it would seem.

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

Oh that's all right then. Why bother with expensive trials and courts if the accused says he didn't do it he must be telling the truth. :rolleyes:

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

Which brings me yet once again to my point that there hasn't been a trial, and he is innocent until proven guilty. How many times must I repeat this?

I'd have thought such an outspoken proponent of the law, and what it stands for, could grasp such a concept that has so easily eluded you.

edit: removed profession reference as could be deemed inappropriate

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

Again, interesting but besides the point. His case has satisfied the terms of our extradition arrangements with Sweden. He must therefore go to Sweden. Then the investigation will be concluded according to Swedish law and, if there is a case to answer, he will be charged and tried then either convicted or acquitted. All of this can only take place in Sweden.

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

So if anyone is accused of something and flee to another country they should have the trial without them or just wait till they decide to return?

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

In the situation where there has been a murder, and there has not yet been a trial, doesn't mean that there isn't a murderer out there. A crime has still taken place.

Just because somebody has been found not guilty, doesn't necessarily mean they didn't do it, you may just not be able to prove it.

He may claim that she wasn't asleep, but was she fully awake and aware? Even if she was awake, did he say or do anything, in order for her to consent, or did he simply surprise her, which would be rape. The 2 women feel that there is something to complain about.

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

Have you heard of the expression "everyone is dancing out of step except me"?

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

They should do exactly as they have done. Interpol alert, extradition proceedings, etc. Assange will remain on the run, or in this case imprisoned at the Ecuadorian embassy until he is arrested and extradited. Regardless of whether or not some people on CF are feeling particularly patient, he is entitled to a defense.

---------- Post added at 16:20 ---------- Previous post was at 16:18 ----------

*yawn*

How many people have I called a rapist?
How many character assassinations have I partaken in?
Exactly. I'm discussing the Assange case at arms length but I am taking care to give the accused the benefit of the doubt until such times as we hear his testimony. You might not like him, but technically he is still innocent.

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

No idea, I can't be bothered to trawl through all your posts as they seem to ramble on and on hoping someone will give in and agree with you just for an easy life.

As above.


Glad you agree.

I'm glad you're giving him the benefit of the doubt but you seem happy for him to evade justice. And by 'justice' I don't mean prosecution, I mean his day in court. Almost everyone, including most people on CF and several British and Swedish judges have agreed he has a case to answer. The courts aren't there just to jail him, they are there to give him a chance to answer the allegations put to him. All the correct legal channels have been followed. The option is there for him to have his say but he continues to evade justice.

Re: Wiki Leaks Founder Julian Assange granted 'Asylum' in Ecuador
 

Nothing to do with it. No one has said he is guilty. We're saying he should have to face the justice system and go to Sweden.