Cable Forum - School helped secret abortion

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- - School helped secret abortion (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=12307)

SMHarman

02-07-2004 15:43

Re: School helped secret abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangebird

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bex

i'm not disputing that they were not wrong to let it happen. but i think to a certain degree the hands of the medical profession are tied. i read an article on a women who insisted on having a home birth but the baby was breach. midwives weren't legally allowed to do anything, otherwise they would be charged, but they had to stand and watch, luckily the women came to her senses. but it illustrates that maybe the laws are too rigid

But i'd break the law to save a baby's life....I can't believe there are people out there who wouldn't...

I think she came to her senses a little too late and the baby died? She then discovered she was having twins (what no ultrasound or heart beat monitor spotted this?) and the second baby was delivered by c section as she was exhausted from being in labour for over 24 hours at that point.

This discussion formum indicates that too.

Re: breaking the law to save the babys life, its a bit difficult when you also have the father there who was also insistent that intervention would not occur, in line with his wifes wishes.

You also have the huge liability problem that if a disabled baby survives and the hospitaly you are attached to is sued, then you are on your own for your intervention, not insurance anything. Fancy losing your house to pay for the 24hr care of a baby the mother was to dumb to go to hospital to have delivered. While hospitals and horizontal delivery are sub optimal, the ability to intervene if problems arise makes home birth crazy IMHO.

Bex	08-07-2004 08:49

Re: School helped secret abortion

after watching one of the morning programmes this morning.... think it was BBC1 but hey it was 7am i wasn't awake...... they were discussing some of the issues around the scan photos and whether a change in the when an abortion can happen will change.....
the gov are suggestion a change from 24weeks.. to 22weeks...

i don't see the point in changing it if it is only going to be a case of 2weeks... but what does everyone else think?

(apologise for the waffle still half a sleep)

dr wadd

08-07-2004 08:54

Re: School helped secret abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bex

I think the government on jumping on an emotive bandwagon without any valid scientific evidence. All those photographs show is that the developing child exhibits behaviour that has a visual parallel to the behaviour of a born child. There is no evidence whatsoever as to the underlying cause for that motion. I can take a corpse and rig it up to electrical signals to get it to move around, it doesn`t mean that the corpse is suddenly self aware.

Just because an unborn child might make a facial expression that approximates smiling doesn`t it doesn`t follow that it is an emotional response indicative of some form of awareness.

Bex	08-07-2004 09:00

Re: School helped secret abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

<snip>Just because an unborn child might make a facial expression that approximates smiling doesn`t it doesn`t follow that it is an emotional response indicative of some form of awareness.

so you think that the vital element is that the foetus would need to be self aware?

dr wadd

08-07-2004 09:12

Re: School helped secret abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bex

so you think that the vital element is that the foetus would need to be self aware?

Indeed, I make a very strict distinction between the concepts of biological function and sentience when it comes to the definition of "life". Sentience is more important to be than the fact that cells are able to metabolise and divide.

SMHarman

08-07-2004 09:17

Re: School helped secret abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bex

A foetus delivered at 23-24 weeks is technically viable and can be sustaned on life support etc just like a preme at say 30 weeks. Top boffins and scientists don't feel that is the case or that it is justified to do so at 22 weeks or sooner.

I think thats the case for the two week change.

These scans while fascinating, at the moment need a body of scientific evidence behind them before further change is proposed, valid scientific study needs replication and peer review.

Reducing the time frame, while not a problem for many as most unwanted pregnancies are terminated before wk 12, could cause problems with terminations decided for medical reasons such as downs (and whether you should terminate a downs baby is a whole new thread), but with the poor state of NHS scanning*, testing and scheduling (speaking from experience) such changes in the law could cause problems.

* in East Herts the 12 week dating scans are running so far behind schedule they are occurring at 16 weeks. This means problems found through scanning will be discovered a month late.

kronas

31-07-2004 14:33

Re: School helped secret abortion

i thought i would put this here....

new guidelines on helping under 16 year olds with abortion have come under fire from anti abortionists.

the new rules are to allow under 16s to seek abortions without the parental knowledge if the teen wishes this.

Quote:

.It's vital young people feel confident enough to approach health professionals and receive the information and treatment they need.

Anne Weyman
Family Planning Association chief exec

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3941573.stm

personally i back the plan, most parents would 'kick off' knowing their 'inoccent teen' was pregnant.

but in some cases there maybe future regrets about the abortion.

but i can see the point of view from the governments proposals, better to speak to someone whos a proffesional rather than leave it untill its too late.

there is also the potential stress that can be caused on the child because the parents are levyng a heavy amount of pressure on the child because of her actions.

timewarrior2001

31-07-2004 14:54

Re: School helped secret abortion

I too welcome this, but the teenagers also need more information of the hazards of jumping in the sack with whoever they happen to feel like.

This should not be used an another excuse to sleep around and forget the consequences.

Maggy

31-07-2004 15:05

Re: School helped secret abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Precisely! Also if parents are going to be cut out of the loop then MORE rigerous councelling should be on offer in case the girl has problem coping mentally in the future.Not leaving it to parents who know nothing about the situation to have to deal with phsychological problems later.

I'm also hoping this is not just a way for the government to find a way to cut the teenage mothers statistics at the expense of the teenagers.

greencreeper

31-07-2004 22:12

Re: School helped secret abortion

I got about 7 pages into this thread and I felt the will to live slowly ebbing from me, so I skipped the rest of the thread. Forgive me if I make points already raised.

Aside from an assortment of related but off topic issues, you all seem to be grappling with the weight of rights - does a pregnant teenager's right to confidentiality outweight that of her parents' right to know that she is pregnant and maybe considering an abortion? There are certain medical treatments and conditions, such as sexual health and abortion, that must have absolute confidentiality. Why? Well without confidentiality it makes it less likely that the patient will seek medical help or (worse) professional medical help, possibily endangering their life.

Lisa finds herself pregnant after a one night stand. She views her parents as being very strict and she believes that they would disown her if she admitted to her condition. She's a teenager - she's scared and feeling very much alone, and not thinking rationally. Maybe her parents would understand but that's irrelevant because Lisa firmly believes that they won't. Try and imagine how frightened and alone she feels. Now if the law said that the hospital had to tell her parents before she could have an abortion, do you think Lisa would go for an abortion? Certainly not. The best outcome is that she hides the pregnancy and dumps the baby in a bin. She could go to a midwife or struck-off doctor for an abortion, but that costs money she doesn't have. Online she discovers instructions on how to abort a fetus using a knitting needle or water squirted into the uterus. Thinking that the needle might be risky (and she's right - she could easily pierce the uterine wall and bleed to death or leave herself infertile) Lisa plumps for the water option. Her parents find her dead in bed next morning because the water method forced air into Lisa's bloodstream. Of course her tearful parents will say that Lisa could have come to them and they can't understand it. They won't question the relationship they had with their daughter - a relationship that left Lisa feeling she had no option but to attempt a DIY abortion.

I think parents should also be mindful of the fact that their children spend more time at school than at home. It's understandable that their children are going to raise issues with teachers first and parents (possibly) second.

I do believe that parents should know because anyone after having an abortion needs support and help, and even more so if they decide to keep the baby. But I think pregnant teenagers should be encouraged to talk to their parents, perhaps in a supported environment, and not forced to by law. Confidentiality must be guaranteed.

kronas

01-08-2004 01:02

Re: School helped secret abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by greencreeper

I do believe that parents should know because anyone after having an abortion needs support and help, and even more so if they decide to keep the baby. But I think pregnant teenagers should be encouraged to talk to their parents, perhaps in a supported environment, and not forced to by law. Confidentiality must be guaranteed.

in my life experiance i have not come across one parent who would even imagine their teenager being pregnant.

its a fact of life the majority of parents would be attacking their kids aggressively telling them and putting them in a harmful situation such as verbal and possibly physical punshment for their sins.

im afraid your point carries too many iffs or buts, ima aperson who likes to play it safe.

so this is why i back the governments decision to allow under 16 year olds the oppertunity to not tell their parents, why do you think they are fearful, they know/think the parents possible reaction.

this would be detremental to both the youngster and the foetus.

if support and advice is excellently maintained then they should push ahead with this.

greencreeper

01-08-2004 01:38

Re: School helped secret abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronas

You've not said anything significantly different from what I said.

Like I said, I do believe that parents should know but that doesn't mean I don't support the government (I'd never support the government but that's a different issue :) ) nor does it mean that I'm ignorant of the fact that many parents would go ape on discovering their children are sexuality active, let alone pregnant. I was simply stating that an abortion requires lots of emotional support and that ideally parents should be the ones to give it, not 3rd party agencies. Teenagers should be encouraged to talk to their parents and supported in doing so, but they certainly shouldn't be forced.

Bare in mind that a teenager's assessment of their parents' attitudes and ability to deal with the news, won't always be accurate.

Stuart

01-08-2004 02:16

Re: School helped secret abortion

Quote:

Originally Posted by greencreeper

Agreed. I already repped you, but I wanted to make the point in public.

Paul	17-11-2004 08:54

Re: School helped secret abortion

The 14 year old girl in question is now pregnant again (and says she wants to keep it this time) :rolleyes:

Stuart

17-11-2004 09:13

Re: School helped secret abortion

OK, I think this girl needs to be taught to use Condoms...

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