Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And airspace ? And waters ? And northern borders ?

You know fine well Israel has and maintains a strangle hold on Gaza

We should just put both sides in the Australian outback let them batter each other with sticks and the winner takes all

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Here is a list of countries, many formed after WW2, are you saying they’re not legitimate?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

No. I believe in facts, as opposed to what I am told. Never said Israel should not exist, Just said they should not be occupying Gaza thirty years after it invaded

---------- Post added at 17:42 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------

What countries

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You say you don’t believe Israel shouldn't exist, yet you freely parrot the talking points of those that do believe exactly that. You sound very much to me like someone who just believes what you’ve been told.

Further example … Israel was not created out of land that was ‘taken off Palestine’ which did not exist at the point Israel was created in 1948. So again, maybe check where you’re getting details from that you think are facts. Because they aren’t.

Mandate Palestine was a British-controlled territory carved out of part of the Ottoman Empire. Prior to that the land was administered within the Ottoman empire as several separate provinces. What you think of as Palestine had never been an independent country and prior to the mid-20th century its inhabitants considered themselves ethnically Arab. The proposal in 1948 would have created ‘Palestinian’ as a national identity in the same way the end of Mandate Mesopotamia in 1931 created ‘Iraqi’.

In the event, it was the actions of Jews prior to 1948 and actions of Israel since 1948, against the ethnic Arab inhabitants of that land, that have done as much as anything else to create a unifying sense of Palestinian identity.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

My original argument was Israel is not a country but a state, I admit I made a mistake of land being taken of Palestine. I knew it was a british controlled territory and they was a mandate for a free state of Israel.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me, where does Israel's Dahiya Doctrine ever get them, the first intifada was stone throwers and riots, the 2nd was suicide bombers, where will all this lead, not to peace, not to a solution

And gets Egypt to play ball their end

Great list, thanks for sharing :tu:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And, to reiterate, the statement ‘Israel is not a country but a state’ is meaningless, with no value outside of the fevered wishful thinking of those who seek to delegitimise it.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

does no delegitimise. It is just stating a fact.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It isn’t even a fact. As an attempt to draw a distinction, it’s nonsense.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Sorry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_of_formation

Shows all countries, many, many formed after WW2, with changes in territories, and forms of government.

The formation of Israel does not make it illegitimate.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Didn't say it was illegitimate, those are your words not mine. Most countries you mention changed after gaining independence.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Please, stop using such amateur debate tactics. Your choices are twofold. Either you meant to imply illegitimacy but you hoped other people would say it for you because you lack the conviction to actually say what you believe. Or, on the other hand, you genuinely haven’t a clue what ‘a state but not a country’ might mean and you are in fact simply repeating what someone else has told you to believe without understanding it.

If there’s a third option please by all means, go ahead …

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cwyl...e9908c4b8#post

I posted this link to the BBC’s ‘live’ page last week and suggested Frank Gardiner was smoking copium over the story of the exploding pagers. He seemed way too keen to paint the timing of the detonations as some sort of schoolboy error, suggesting there was no evidence of a build-up towards broader Israeli action that would be the only logical reason for this sort of attack on Hezbollah’s logistics.

“It’s possible that, when it comes to sabotaging its enemy’s communications, Israel has shot its bolt too early” he intoned solemnly.

Yet what happened next … 24 hours later, the walkie talkies exploded. Then Hezbollah’s leadership convened a crisis meeting at a location Israel clearly knew about and was ready to destroy - and did so, on Friday, decapitating the organisation’s leadership in Lebanon. Now, today, they’re doing the very thing Gardiner somehow decided couldn’t be about to happen, i.e. pounding Hamas positions.

Now, tonight, Bothsides Bowen is on the news at 10 opining that Israel is probably wasting its time trying to take down Hezbollah having had a year to do similar to Hamas in Gaza, and not yet having completed the task.

I’m left with the distinct impression that the BBC’s correspondents are all toeing an agreed editorial line which is that Israel doesn’t know what it’s doing, is reckless, and won’t get what it wants. That’s not inherently antisemitic but it is definitely aligned with the line-to-take coming from Hamas and Hezbollah’s useful idiots in the West. I’m sure that’s just a massive coincidence though.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The BBC News has become a national embarrassment rather than a national treasure.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Thread title updated.

If I was one of the mad Mullahs in Tehran I’d be pooing my pants about now. 180 missiles, minimal damage caused to Israel, and a fat target now painted on every Iranian military asset which has just become a legitimate and immediate potential target. What were they thinking?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

The general opinion seems to be they were thinking they had to do something, so as not to look weak & powerless.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

They're all safely underground. Meanwhile, their chances of getting Trump into power are increased.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Even a place like Iran has to worry about domestic opinion to an extent I guess.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Actually Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Farmers, soldiers. etc, etc all left. Sadly since that time, the Hamas government used every ounce of manpower to build tunnels, rockets and weaponry; and then complain to the world that that the population had no food.

Secondly, remember why Israel was in Gaza. It was because Gamal Abdel Nasser wanted to eliminate Israel. You say Israel "invaded"; it was a defensive operation by Israel against Egypt, not the Gazans

---------- Post added at 01:11 ---------- Previous post was at 00:56 ----------

Both India and Pakistan; and subsequently Bangladesh
Indonesia:
The Philippines
Virtually all the Arab nations
Communist German Democratic Republic
Many Soviet satellite states,

I'm sure there are plenty more examples if you choose to research; eg look up Yugoslavia's history.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

So Israel has been hammering Iran overnight and the mad Mullahs are crying ‘didn’t even hurt!’ Just like a little playground bully who made a nuisance of himself once too often and got flattened by one of the older boys.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Thank you General Bluster for that military analysis ;)

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Arrest warrants issued for Netanyahu, Gallant and Hamas commander over alleged war crimes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2exvx944o


The judges said there were “reasonable grounds” the three men bore "criminal responsibility" for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity during the war between Israel and Hamas. Both Israel and Hamas have rejected the allegations.

war crimes and crimes against humanity,very serious charges

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Performative nonsense.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Downing Street has indicated Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would be arrested if he arrived on British soil following an international arrest warrant being issued for him.

https://news.sky.com/story/home-secr...rrant-13258193


i wonder where would the trial take place if one or all are arrested by one of the countrys signed up to the icc

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

What is the court in the Hague, not being sarcastic

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

i think it's for war criminals and alike but i was wondering if trials would take place in the country they were arrested in ,and what would be the punnishment

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Putin is still on their arrest list.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

It’s bollocks, if they believe this the ICC should issuing an arrest warrant for Zelenskyy too.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

why what has he done?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Defended his country militarily from an hostile enemy.

Just like Netanyahu.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

interesting article in the guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ahu-icc-israel

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Not really.

Borderline anti-Israel.

Do you not agree that Zelenskyy is as guilty as Netanyahu for war crimes? And if not…why?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Has Zelensky been accused of these actions?

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/stateme...ituation-state

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Ukraine has mostly hit military targets. There hasn't been large-scale bombing of civilian areas.

I don't think you can compare dealing with a terrorist group embedded in a civilian area with repelling a land invasion by a conventional military with a conventional military.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I don’t know, launching rockets into Russia he may well be…..

But let’s see…

Any proof? Aid has continuously been let in…..it’s been stolen by Hamas……but it’s been let in.

Seems a bit vague for a war zone, considering they’ve tried to move and warn civilians away from targeted attacks, I don’t see how it’s “wilfully”.

I’ll merge these two, again the terms “wilfully and intentionally” in the end it’s an accusation because you can’t evidence it, it’s just hyperbole.

You can’t prove starvation caused by Israel, caused by HAMAS maybe……

Proof?

Such as?


In any event, Hugh where are you?

Are you are terrorist sympathiser? Tough question.

Do you believe in Israel’s right to exist as a nation and to defend itself?

Do you believe it should remove all of its enemies and protect its citizens after the genocidal attack of Oct 7th?

And as a military veteran of the Cold War, you were there ready to retaliate against anyone that threatened the U.K.

Do you deny Israel that action?

---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:10 ----------

So has Israel

The fact that their military targets are embedded, by design, in civilian areas doesn’t change anything.

I think, you can.


There is no moral difference.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

The civilian deaths are why he is in this position.

Zelensky and Ukraine have been responsible for very few civilian deaths. Hardly any.

That's the difference.

You can argue how you effectively pursue a war against a terrorist ground embedded in a civilian population but that's a different argument as to why Zelensky doesn't have an arrest warrant against him.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

The civilian deaths are Hamas’s fault. Plus it’s very difficult to separate civilians from combatants.

Israel, have done all they can to avoid civilian deaths, Hamas not so much.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Can you provide verified evidence to supoort that statement ?

Considering Israel’s well documented weaponry and intelligence capabilities there’s been far too many indiscriminate hits on civilian locations (apartment block in Beirut just this morning as just one example)

Going back to the guardian article is it anti Israel? No, is it anti Netanyahu ? Possibly. the point raised is valid. War will always be viewed via different optics , more and more nations rightly or wrongly are either believing or starting to believe that Israel are showing themselves to have little to no thought in protecting civilians in this conflict.

Israel has a right to protect itself , but not at any cost. Those who question Israel’s tactics have a right to do so and that doesn’t make them terrorist sympathisers. You’re a bright person Pierre , bit of a wind up merchant at times. You do yourself a disservice mind

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I have to agree - it’s quite a leap from

"Has Zelensky been accused of these actions?"

to

"Are you are terrorist sympathiser?"

Perhaps I'm just here to counter the narrative...

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Well I’m not on the front line, but I can provide other expert opinions

https://www.israelhayom.com/opinions...-own-soldiers/

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-impl...pinion-1865613


I could post many more , and no doubt you find many the say the opposite.

That where I disagree, Israel must win at all costs.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

So, to clarify, Israel can wipe out the entire Palestinian nation to secure the complete eradication of Hamas ?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

There is no Palestinian nation.

But Israel must do whatever it takes to eradicate Hamas.

And there is no indication that they intend eradicate all Palestinians, that’s just emotive rhetoric.

---------- Post added at 14:27 ---------- Previous post was at 14:25 ----------

Touché

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Ok, I’ll rephrase, is it ok for Israel to kill every innocent resident of Palestine in their goal to eradicate Hamas ?

A yes or no answer is all that is needed

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I don’t have to play by your rules.

Israel must do what it has to, to destroy the Hamas, to ensure something like Oct 7th never happens again.

They are not trying to kill every innocent Palestinian, quite the opposite.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I didn’t say they were , I asked you if based on your statement that ‘Israel must do what it has to do’ and your previous statements of similar nature. does that include and/or justify the death of every single innocent Palestinian to ensure the destruction of Hamas .

It is a simple question and can be quite simply answered, the fact that you can’t or won’t answer it and dodge it with statements such as ‘I don’t have to play by your rules’ which is rather hypocritical position to take when you use exactly the same closed question type. For reference ‘are you a terrorist sympathiser’ leads to two possible scenarios

1. You’re doing your usual which appears to be being deliberately confrontational in order to provoke a reaction.

2. You do believe that Israel are justified (and actively should) murder every single innocent Palestinian if it means they can eradicate Hamas. However you won’t openly admit it because you know what that would make you.

I hope it’s 1. But I believe it’s 2. I’d wager that most of the board know exactly what you’re advocating for, the only person you don’t want to admit it too is yourself.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Great, then If you agree that they are not, then anything beyond that is just you agitating.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

As it has been all of history . Wipe out your enemy no matter the cost to innocent people. IRA , Japan and Germany come to mind . Don't worry there are our friends now:erm:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

As long as the acused get a fair trial i don't see a problem,if they are inocent they will go free

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

There is also the rub, would either side get a fair trial and even if fair would it be recognised as fair if the outcome isn't what one side desire.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Isn't that the case with every trial?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I admire your tenacity but I very much doubt he is going to say the quiet bit out loud. He is quite content with the Israelis killing innocent Palestinians. In many peoples eyes, their lives literally have no value and this will lead the West to a very dark place in the future. The idea of "Western Values" is now so eroded so when we try and set some moral position in a future conflict, it will have little or no value.

As an illustration, a week or so ago, a British surgeon who spent some time in Gaza trying to help those injured by the IDF, described Israel bombing refugee camps (link) and after the bomb had been dropped, drones followed up to shoot the injured women & children lying on the ground:

This was not headline news with the BBC burying it in the "local news section". Says it all ...

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Forgot to add USA, H bombs on Japan :td:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

atom bombs not H bombs

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Quite right hadn't even noticed :shocked: thank you. The point still stands :(

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

You really are a vile, disgusting human being.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Israel’s war in Gaza amounts to genocide, Amnesty International report finds
Human rights group says Israel ‘brazenly, continuously and with total impunity … unleashed hell’ on strip’s 2.3m population



Israel’s war in Gaza amounts to genocide, Amnesty International report finds
Human rights group says Israel ‘brazenly, continuously and with total impunity … unleashed hell’ on strip’s 2.3m population

Guardian international staff
Thu 5 Dec 2024 00.01 GMT
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A report from Amnesty International alleges that Israel’s war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip constitutes the crime of genocide under international law, the first such determination by a major human rights organisation in the 14-month-old conflict.

The 32-page report examining events in Gaza between October 2023 to July 2024, published on Thursday, found that Israel had “brazenly, continuously and with total impunity … unleashed hell” on the strip’s 2.3 million population, noting that the “atrocity crimes” against Israelis by Hamas on 7 October 2023, which triggered the war, “do not justify genocide”.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-report-finds

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t, but Amnesty International also thinks feminism means believing men can be women, so their stock isn’t exactly at an all time high right now.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

So due to your interpretation of their stance on trans rights, you doubt the veracity of their report on the ongoing war crimes in Gaza. Interesting mental gymnastics ...

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Pretty much, yes.

Amnesty has a clearly identifiable political stance. An organisation like that ought to be agnostic but its alignment with the ‘progressive’ hard left is obvious.

There are other organisations whose assessments of what’s going on in Gaza I would take seriously, but right now, Amnesty’s underlying politics are such that I find it safer to disregard them.

Also, it’s not my interpretation of their stance that’s the issue with regards to so-called ‘trans’ issues. It’s black and white. It campaigns for any person of any age, to have their ‘true’ gender legally recognised. Leaving aside the fact that genderism is from the outset grounded in extremely flaky pseudo-science, that amounts to a charter for the destruction of women’s rights as well as any hope of effective child safeguarding. Amnesty is a mess. Avoid.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I sense that your politics is the lens through which you view this issue, not the veracity of their findings or the facts on the ground. Either what they report is correct or not. Disregarding their findings because the wider organisation do not align with your political world view is strange at best.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Amazing a discussion about alleged genocide turns into a debate on who has a penis, talk about deflection :rolleyes:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

There’s nothing “progressive hard left” about the observation Israel are committing a genocide. To claim otherwise fails tbe “what if it was Putin?” test.

The only reason I don’t continue to make the observation - a position I’ve held for months given the obvious falsehoods of Israeli propaganda (we don’t bomb hospitals, 40 beheaded babies etc) is previously it was routinely censored on this forum. One year on I wonder if this post survives.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Just a thought nothing more . During the IRAs campaign in the UK.Should the UK have bombed Dublin and other known locations.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

No…

The IRA/PIRA/etc. were/are banned organisations in Ireland, and have nothing to do with the Irish Government.

The U.K. Government might as well have bombed Digbeth, The Gorbals, most of Liverpool, Ancoats, Kilburn & Islington, with all the Irish/Irish descended living there…

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Whether Hamas are banned (or not) in the shell of a Palestinian state that Israel occupies is irrelevant as to whether the destruction of it, it’s hospitals, it’s schools, it’s mosques, it’s churches, it’s museums and the displacement of 2 million people are justified.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

So true ...

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:05 ----------

Ah but you wrote down your thought :)

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Well…….they don’t get to decide. Their opinion holds as much weight as anyone’s on here.

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:24 ----------

They are not an arbiter on the issue. They can hold an opinion, but that’s all it is.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Next

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Queers for Palestine is very different from Palestine for queers!

---------- Post added at 18:29 ---------- Previous post was at 18:27 ----------

They are prosecuting a military operation to eradicate a terrorist organisation.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Not a mutually exclusive position from committing a genocide neither does that justify carrying out one.

No state can invent a narrowly defined objective and pursue it at unlimited cost to human life.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

well they have

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Did the IRA invade main land U.K., and murder near 2 million people?

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:35 ----------

By all mean necessary unfortunately.


They must be made to know that their tactic of using their citizens as a human shield no longer will work.

---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 18:37 ----------

It’s not an unlimited cost though. As historical military operations go it one that killed the fewest innocents v combatants ever.

Feel free to research that.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

[QUOTE=Pierre;36187214]Did the IRA invade main land U.K., and murder near 2 million people?
[COLOR="Silver"]
[SIZE=1]---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at
Doesn't answer the question . Should any country attack the bolt holes of terrorists. :dozey:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

There's no basis for this in international law, to the extent that it exists at all.

It's not merely the killing of civilians - mainly women and children - it's the systematic destruction of infrastructure and institutions. The blockading of international aid, food and medical supplies of no military value.

That justification taken to the extreme would support enacting a genocide on the basis of it being unknown whether any Hamas militants remained down to the last single Palestinian. Which is why it's no justification at all.

---------- Post added at 18:48 ---------- Previous post was at 18:45 ----------

The Russian invasion of Ukraine has killed less civilians and decimated far more of the Ukranian armed forces as a ratio. Nobody is holding that up as a humanitarian success story. Quite the opposite.

Israel would have eliminated Hamas many multiples of times over at even a 1:1 ratio. Ukranian civilian casualties to military ones are about 1:6. That's with a conservative estimate of Ukranian military casualties which are disputed since the US are now pressuring Ukraine to lower the age of conscription to 18.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

[QUOTE=Itshim;36187217]Yes.

---------- Post added at 19:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:54 ----------


The way see it, Israel have to eradicate Hamas totally, removing the potential for it to ever resurrect itself.

They are not targeting all Palestinians, because of the fact that they are Palestinians.

Hamas must be eradicated, however, I do concede that I don’t know how Israel will know how or when they have achieved that aim……….

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Indeed they have. The perverse irony for those who are content with the killing of tens of thousands of innocent men, women & children in pursuit of Hamas is that this very action will lead to another generation of Palestinians seeking vengeance for their parents, loved ones, etc.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Is that true of the women and children killed by snipers or are they just a bad shot?

Israel may have legitimate aims - nobody disputes that. Whether their reckless disregard of Palestinian life amounts to a genocide or not seems like semantics at this stage. It's not credible that destroying 50%+ of the buildings in Gaza, and every functioning hospital, is proportionate in response, whether a Hamas militant was hiding in them or otherwise.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Nobody is content with it, an emotive claim you continually make. What makes you think anyone is “content” with it?

You have a weird concept of what war entails .


Well, getting rid of UNRWA will help with that.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Terrorism just evolves if there's enough people who feel the sense of injustice or willing to take coin of their paymasters whomever that may be. Look at the former Al Quaeda former ISIS types the west are currently cheering on in Syria because it's politically opportune.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I would have see independent evidence of that within any context of obtaining it.

Depends what’s within, or underneath, said hospitals, schools and mosques etc.

All that said, we now a well into 12 months of this operation and Israel now need to look at the end game and start to finalise this operation.

As I would be concerned of the reasoning for this to continue beyond Q1 2025.

Israel should have complete control of Gaza, and have discovered all the tunnels and command centres.

I’m hoping Trump can influence the Hamas millionaires in Qatar to capitulate, or find themselves in the cross hairs.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

There’s no credible evidence of Hamas operating in or under hospitals, mosques, schools or otherwise from a source other than the IDF. Even the staged photos after the fact have been kept to carefully vetted journalists who can only report under carefully controlled conditions.

---------- Post added at 20:03 ---------- Previous post was at 20:01 ----------

Well, quite.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … Wa
 

Whilst I take your point…….that is a massive stretch. In my opinion. You can believe what you wish to believe but given that Hamas are on record as stating that they do make their bases below schools and hospitals as a matter of policy, that the IDF report as much does not come as surprise, nor does it cast into doubt the validity of the evidence.

Show me a “proven” to be staged photo, and I’ll look at it.

I think you are a gnats cock hair away from telling me that Oct 7th never happened, that it was an Israeli inside job, staged, so that they could invade Gaza, because they’ve been wanting to do it for ages.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … Wa
 

Come on now Pierre, we both know this isn’t true.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Way to wilfully misunderstand the point.

My problem is with Amnesty, not the question of what crimes have occurred in Israel/Gaza over the past year and a bit.

Framing and context is everything here, and Amnesty’s context and framing is evident from page one, line one of its report.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1733496027

Would anyone like to take a wild guess at what actually happened on 7 October?

To paraphrase Pierre, Amnesty are a Gnat’s pube away from claiming about 6,000 Gazans and 4,000 unguided missiles didn’t cross the border into Israel that day. They may never say the words, but in their pronouncements they sure as heck are aiming to bury the truth.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Framing and context is everything to Israeli sympathisers and Zionists. It’s the mechanism by which they maintain their status as the perpetual victim, as opposed to an active participant in decades long struggle where the vast majority of casualties, and bombs dropped by tonnage, are on the other side.

It’s the mechanism by which Palestinian deaths portrayed as a price worth paying.

Neither Amnesty nor anyone else are obliged to indulge such a ludicrous proposition.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Just a few lines further down in the report:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Mmm. “Coming soon” … funny how they’re still working on *one day* of savagery more than a year on, despite it being recorded and live streamed by the perpetrators, while they’ve apparently spared no effort to wade through an entire year’s worth of material on the opposite side in order to get their report out condemning Israel.

As I said, context and framing is everything. Putting the very reason this latest round of bloodletting began downpage, rather than at the top where it belongs, is a deliberate editorial choice. As is leaving out words like ‘rape’ and ‘torture’, for which there is copious video evidence. Amnesty clearly wishes to downplay, to the maximum extent it can get away with, the fact that Hamas initiated this and nothing that has been done to Gaza or its people in the last year would have happened were it not for this.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

It is comments like this that are used to turn a blind eye to what has been done to the Palestinians: "Well if Hamas had not attacked us, we would have not needed to kill all the innocent men, women & children". The focus on how bad Amnesty is and not the events they are reporting on is disturbing ...

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Hamas don’t have a monopoly on rape or torture in the conflict, as demonstrated by the prisoners brutalised at the hands of the IDF in the absence of trials or evidence. Indeed the IDF slaughtered Israeli hostages for having the audacity to approach them with a white t-shirt waving as if to be a white flag. Heinous does not begin to cover it - the day in, day out existence of the Palestinian people.

It may suit you to deploy such evidence as examples to create an emotive response - indeed the Israeli state has done so effectively alongside the “40 beheaded babies”. None of this, absolutely none, would justifiy a genocide.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

No, it isn’t. Do please stop trying to use emotive nonsense to police other forum users’ choices about what and how they discuss.

This is a discussion forum, not a virtue signalling forum. We’ve been here more than 20 years, and in that time we have always freely discussed issues from various angles. We are here to discuss, not to recite approved opinions.

Right now, I choose to discuss Amnesty’s choice to pick political sides, which they very obviously are doing, on this and other issues, over what they once had a reputation for, i.e. calling out injustice without favour.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Look forward to seeing the evidence.

---------- Post added at 18:36 ---------- Previous post was at 18:34 ----------

It’s comments like this that are totally irrelevant to what’s taken place over the last 14 months

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I sense that it is only your view that matters here and any contrary position is "virtue signalling" or "emotive nonsense". So be it ...

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Seems correct, if Hamas had not attacked, Israel would not have responded. Do you have proof otherwise ?

Of course, you forgot to mention that Hamas "killed innocent men, women & children", funny how you missed that ....

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Nobody missed that - it gets mentioned often enough - it’s the tens of thousands of slaughtered Palestinians that get overlooked. Efforts to make October 7th day 1 in the conflict erase decades of Palestinian suffering and occupation. Framing it that way, so to speak.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

As so it should.

Had Oct 7th not happened, none of this would have happened. The fault lies squarely at the feet of Hamas.

And let’s not forget why it happened. You and Ian can quote decades of oppression La, La La.

But you know it was orchestrated because of the Abraham accords, the normalisation of relations between Israel and other Middle Eastern nations, especially Saudi Arabia ( that has no interest in continuing hostilities, they are for economic advancement not medieval religious bullshit.


Iran could see the direction of travel and acted.

The Palestinians are expendable to Iran and Qatar and Hamas, they’re happy to see them die.

The IDF/Israel care more for their lives than Hamas do.

To trot out this argument, implies deep naivety, bordering on ignorance, as to why Oct 7th really happened.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Neither does the fact that other countries are happy to sacrifice Palestinians as pawns justify a genocide. If Iran and Qatar are pulling the strings they should pay the price. Hope that helps.

And no, it doesn’t require centring Israeli suffering in the narrative to justify one.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

That’s the weakest response to this subject I’ve seen from you in the last year to 18 months.

And it’s absolutely expected.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

I suspect international law would say otherwise - punishing entirely different people for crimes they didn't commit on the basis of proximity/ethnicity or any other reason usually doesn't go down too well.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War
 

Cue, "yeah but 7 October, proportionate response"