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-   -   The Chronicles of Rishi (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33711430)

Hugh 05-01-2024 22:26
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36167813)
Ah, fair enough. Me being positive and thinking the best of people again ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36167816)
A noble quality, sadly missing in most
https://media.giphy.com/media/3o6fIT...xUic/giphy.gif

Mr K 09-01-2024 18:10
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Labour lead at 24pts
Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 46% (+3)
CON: 22% (-2)
LDEM: 10% (-)
REF: 9% (-2)
GRN: 7% (-1)

via
@YouGov
, 02 - 03 Jan
All going well then..... ;)

heero_yuy 09-01-2024 18:16
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36167988)
All going well then..... ;)
If you want to pay more tax and have higher interest rates on your mortgage.

Be careful what you wish for.

Mr K 09-01-2024 18:21
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36167990)
If you want to pay more tax and have higher interest rates on your mortgage.

Be careful what you wish for.
If you want the NHS to be there when you need it , and the country not to be in terminal decline, be careful what YOU wish for..... ( oh hang on, thats already happened..)

denphone 09-01-2024 18:36
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36167990)
If you want to pay more tax and have higher interest rates on your mortgage.

Be careful what you wish for.
Taxes are at their highest in this country since 1951, and all under this administration..

heero_yuy 09-01-2024 18:47
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36167992)
Taxes are at their highest in this country since 1951, and all under this administration..
And the lefties want even more expenditure in the public sector. Go figure.

denphone 09-01-2024 18:54
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36167993)
And the lefties want even more expenditure in the public sector. Go figure.
Have you seen the catastrophic state of public services nowadays, open your eyes as it might enlighten you.

Mr K 09-01-2024 19:13
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36167994)
Have you seen the catastrophic state of public services nowadays, open your eyes as it might enlighten you.
Unfortunately people only open their eyes when they or their family need those public services

Sephiroth 09-01-2024 19:21
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36167994)
Have you seen the catastrophic state of public services nowadays, open your eyes as it might enlighten you.
It's all very well going on about the government's poor record.
But you lefties dodge any substance as to whether or not Labour can do any better.

So far as I can see, their flagship policy is VAT on private schools and they've allocated the funds they think they'll get to other educational spend. We all know what's going to happen - non-rich people who beggar themselves to put their kids into private school will have to go back to state schools, adding to government cost and smashing their stupid projections into vapour.

Labour will not be good for the country. Yet, I fear, that's what will happen.

mrmistoffelees 09-01-2024 19:23
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36167993)
And the lefties want even more expenditure in the public sector. Go figure.
And we should be able to had the tories not spunked billions up the wall on ill fated projects

Sephiroth 09-01-2024 19:23
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36167995)
Unfortunately people only open their eyes when they or their family need those public services
What is Labour's plan for public services? If you don't know, you shouldn't be supporting them. I do understand that the Tories have governed very badly and need throwing out. But Labour isn't the answer.

mrmistoffelees 09-01-2024 19:25
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36167990)
If you want to pay more tax and have higher interest rates on your mortgage.

Be careful what you wish for.
Unless you’re psychic that’s pure whataboutery

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36167999)
What is Labour's plan for public services? If you don't know, you shouldn't be supporting them. I do understand that the Tories have governed very badly and need throwing out. But Labour isn't the answer.
You wouldn’t be stating that people need to provide evidence for their argument to be credible would you ?

Sephiroth 09-01-2024 19:32
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36168000)
Unless you’re psychic that’s pure whataboutery

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:23 ----------



You wouldn’t be stating that people need to provide evidence for their argument to be credible would you ?
I just want you to justify what you post. Doesn't need evidence - just intelligent opinion.

mrmistoffelees 09-01-2024 19:36
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168002)
I just want you to justify what you post. Doesn't need evidence - just intelligent opinion.
One usually justifies a statement with evidence, no?

Regardless of the above, to a degree you have a point. The tories have pretty much ruined this country over their time in government. And whilst you have a point that Labour MIGHT not be the answer. If it comes down to it I’d rather let Labour have a crack at it rather than than this shower of crap have another go.

Sephiroth 09-01-2024 19:45
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36168003)
One usually justifies a statement with evidence, no?

Regardless of the above, to a degree you have a point. The tories have pretty much ruined this country over their time in government. And whilst you have a point that Labour MIGHT not be the answer. If it comes down to it I’d rather let Labour have a crack at it rather than than this shower of crap have another go.

No. Try opinion, well reasoned opinion will do.

There is a lot about this country that the Tories have ruined. That we have not gone into meltdown is due to business just carrying on despite government.

I think your point about you wanting Labour to have a crack at doing a better job, is reasonable. The difference between us, I suspect, is that Labour will just rob people they define as rich. So elderly people in their family homes won't be able to afford the property taxes Labour will impose and will have their lives turned upside down.

daveeb 09-01-2024 19:46
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36167990)
If you want to pay more tax and have higher interest rates on your mortgage.

Be careful what you wish for.
How bad does it have to be and how long does it have to go on for before you realise the current government is incompetent, corrupt and a complete catastrophy. You must have some military grade blinkers on.

mrmistoffelees 09-01-2024 19:48
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168006)

No. Try opinion, well reasoned opinion will do.

There is a lot about this country that the Tories have ruined. That we have not gone into meltdown is due to business just carrying on despite government.

I think your point about you wanting Labour to have a crack at doing a better job, is reasonable. The difference between us, I suspect, is that Labour will just rob people they define as rich. So elderly people in their family homes won't be able to afford the property taxes Labour will impose and will have their lives turned upside down.
The moderately wealthy are already getting their eyes gauged out mon ami… I could send you my P60 and then my self assessment for last year and I suspect you would fall out of your chair.

Pierre 09-01-2024 19:51
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36167992)
Taxes are at their highest in this country since 1951, and all under this administration..
And the NHS just keeps getting money thrown at it, and it’s still a basket case.

denphone 09-01-2024 19:51
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36167997)
It's all very well going on about the government's poor record.
But you lefties dodge any substance as to whether or not Labour can do any better.

So far as I can see, their flagship policy is VAT on private schools and they've allocated the funds they think they'll get to other educational spend. We all know what's going to happen - non-rich people who beggar themselves to put their kids into private school will have to go back to state schools, adding to government cost and smashing their stupid projections into vapour.

Labour will not be good for the country. Yet, I fear, that's what will happen.
Again you namecall and insult some forum members because of the paucity of your arguments.

Given we have had one colour of government for the last 14 years, anything is going to be better then the constant shitshows and daily internecine political warfare on the Conservatives watch.

Perhaps if they put the country first rather then their own grubby selfish narrow interests then this country might be in better shape.

Sephiroth 09-01-2024 19:52
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36168010)
The moderately wealthy are already getting their eyes gauged out mon ami… I could send you my P60 and then my self assessment for last year and I suspect you would fall out of your chair.
... and you want that to get worse (under Labour)?

mrmistoffelees 09-01-2024 19:57
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168013)
... and you want that to get worse (under Labour)?
Again, that’s whataboutery…. The tories have mismanaged the public purse throughout their term. I have no problem with paying the levels of tax and ni and in some instances I get to pay employers ni too IF that money is used prudently. It’s almost certain that this current fiscal mismanagement would continue if the tories were returned. Labour have been out of the spotlight long enough for them to be given the opportunity. I don’t expect miracles, I just hope they will be less crap than the current lot in power

daveeb 09-01-2024 20:04
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36168014)
Again, that’s whataboutery…. The tories have mismanaged the public purse throughout their term. I have no problem with paying the levels of tax and ni and in some instances I get to pay employers ni too IF that money is used prudently. It’s almost certain that this current fiscal mismanagement would continue if the tories were returned. Labour have been out of the spotlight long enough for them to be given the opportunity. I don’t expect miracles, I just hope they will be less crap than the current lot in power
Agreed, this shower have set the bar so low it would be almost impossible to do a worse job. You never know Labour might prove to have the odd scruple here and there and try to actually improve the country rather than their own self serving needs. It would be a refreshing change.

Pierre 09-01-2024 20:14
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Fun fact that since 2010, the conservatives have only had a majority government for 6 yrs and 1 month of the 13yrs and 1 month.

3 yrs of that 6yrs blighted by COVID.

Sephiroth 09-01-2024 20:17
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36168014)
Again, that’s whataboutery…. The tories have mismanaged the public purse throughout their term. I have no problem with paying the levels of tax and ni and in some instances I get to pay employers ni too IF that money is used prudently. It’s almost certain that this current fiscal mismanagement would continue if the tories were returned. Labour have been out of the spotlight long enough for them to be given the opportunity. I don’t expect miracles, I just hope they will be less crap than the current lot in power
What is opinion if not "whataboutery"?

Your hope in Labour will be shared by a large chunk of the nation. I have nothing positive to say about the Tories. But I know what Labour is and I know what the MPs for East London, Bradford, etc want to achieve as they try to wag the dog.

Voting Labour will come with all sorts of baggage that we don't want.

mrmistoffelees 09-01-2024 21:17
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36168019)
Fun fact that since 2010, the conservatives have only had a majority government for 6 yrs and 1 month of the 13yrs and 1 month.

3 yrs of that 6yrs blighted by COVID.
I’m not sure they can be given a pass for three years of Covid considering their behaviour during that period

IMHO it all adds up

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168020)
What is opinion if not "whataboutery"?

Your hope in Labour will be shared by a large chunk of the nation. I have nothing positive to say about the Tories. But I know what Labour is and I know what the MPs for East London, Bradford, etc want to achieve as they try to wag the dog.

Voting Labour will come with all sorts of baggage that we don't want.
Whataboutery ‘the practice of repeatedly blaming the other side and referring to events from the past’ so for all wants and purpose they would be historical evidence.

In its simplest form for me it boils down to this.

Do I believe that the country will improve if the tories are reelected ? No
Do I believe that electing Labour represents a risk ? Yes
Do I believe that there is a credible alternative to either the tories or Labour ? No
Do I believe that the risk of electing a Labour government is higher than the risk of reelecting a Tory government ? No

For me, Labour represent the least crap of the available viable options

A sad indictment of the political situation in the U.K.

Pierre 09-01-2024 22:12
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36168021)
I’m not sure they can be given a pass for three years of Covid considering their behaviour during that period
Yeah, I know. Global pandemics that shut down most western economies, not really an excuse.

Sephiroth 09-01-2024 22:14
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Good logic. Of course, I won't vote Labour.

1andrew1 09-01-2024 22:46
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36168019)
Fun fact that since 2010, the conservatives have only had a majority government for 6 yrs and 1 month of the 13yrs and 1 month.

3 yrs of that 6yrs blighted by COVID.
I don't think Covid lasted three years, more like 12 months.

---------- Post added at 22:46 ---------- Previous post was at 22:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36167999)
What is Labour's plan for public services? If you don't know, you shouldn't be supporting them.
I'm not sure Labour knows its plans for public services so it's a bit unreasonable for Mr K to know them! ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36167999)
I do understand that the Tories have governed very badly and need throwing out. But Labour isn't the answer.
If you understand that they need throwing out, then if you're logical you should vote against them at the next election.

mrmistoffelees 09-01-2024 23:03
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36168028)
Yeah, I know. Global pandemics that shut down most western economies, not really an excuse.
My thoughts and opinions aren’t just based on the economy. That’s merely one component

TheDaddy 09-01-2024 23:05
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36167997)
It's all very well going on about the government's poor record.
But you lefties dodge any substance as to whether or not Labour can do any better.
You're right, best not give them a chance and lets carry on as we are then

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36168011)
And the NHS just keeps getting money thrown at it, and it’s still a basket case.
Really, I thought it was being cut...

1andrew1 09-01-2024 23:34
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36168034)
Really, I thought it was being cut...
We must have got all those 40 new hospitals that BoJo promised us by now! ;)

Damien 10-01-2024 08:29
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36167990)
If you want to pay more tax and have higher interest rates on your mortgage.

Be careful what you wish for.
Yes, image a Government that presided over record-high tax and a huge spike in interest rates.

TheDaddy 10-01-2024 11:28
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36168036)
We must have got all those 40 new hospitals that BoJo promised us by now! ;)
More likely people have been to busy to delve into the claims of record NHS funding to notice it included the dodgy PPE contracts so whilst it looked they were investing in the health service they were actually using it to launder money from the public into the pockets of friends and donors, they think we're stupid and we go out of our way to prove them right at every opportunity

jfman 10-01-2024 11:54
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36168040)
More likely people have been to busy to delve into the claims of record NHS funding to notice it included the dodgy PPE contracts so whilst it looked they were investing in the health service they were actually using it to launder money from the public into the pockets of friends and donors, they think we're stupid and we go out of our way to prove them right at every opportunity
Plus the gravy train of “agency nurses” and PFI. There’s probably significantly less being spent per capita on actual healthcare as parasites get their cut.

ianch99 10-01-2024 12:21
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36167999)
What is Labour's plan for public services? If you don't know, you shouldn't be supporting them. I do understand that the Tories have governed very badly and need throwing out. But Labour isn't the answer.
So in a two party FPTP system, what is the answer?

---------- Post added at 12:21 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36168014)
Again, that’s whataboutery…. The tories have mismanaged the public purse throughout their term. I have no problem with paying the levels of tax and ni and in some instances I get to pay employers ni too IF that money is used prudently. It’s almost certain that this current fiscal mismanagement would continue if the tories were returned. Labour have been out of the spotlight long enough for them to be given the opportunity. I don’t expect miracles, I just hope they will be less crap than the current lot in power
You are correct: you can see, as evidence, what the Tories have done in 13 years in power. The list of failures is so long I won't even attempt to start listing them. You have to be very naïve to want more of what they have done. The only other option is Labour as that is what our current system dictates.

To assume that Labour would be a worse choice than continuing with the current Government when you have no real evidence to back it up, is just denial of how much damage has occurred in the last 13 years.

Remember, the Tories only every had a two point plan for power:

1. Make money for their sponsors/donors/voter base
2. Stay in Power

jfman 10-01-2024 18:09
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
It has to be said the state propaganda machine is in overdrive giving him good PR for this Post Office move.

Paul 10-01-2024 18:23
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Well, aside from the fact the move is probably a good one anyway, he needs all the good PR he can get.

denphone 10-01-2024 18:36
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36168064)
It has to be said the state propaganda machine is in overdrive giving him good PR for this Post Office move.
You have to remember that many parts of the media are simply propaganda outlets for the ruling party.

1andrew1 10-01-2024 18:51
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36168064)
It has to be said the state propaganda machine is in overdrive giving him good PR for this Post Office move.
I think he's on the money with this move though - the nation is angry with the cover-up and the suffering of the post masters/mistresses.

Sephiroth 10-01-2024 19:28
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36168069)
You have to remember that many parts of the media are simply propaganda outlets for the ruling party.
Are you sure about that? The Mail, Express & Telegraph are always slagging the government off.

What about the Grauniad? A lefty mouthpiece?

Hugh 10-01-2024 19:36
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168073)
Are you sure about that? The Mail, Express & Telegraph are always slagging the government off.

What about the Grauniad? A lefty mouthpiece?
For not being right-wing enough, but when push comes to shove (the election), they’ll be supporting the Conservatives.

You forgot the Sun and the Times - both Murdoch papers, and the Evening Standard, all supporting the Conservatives…

1andrew1 10-01-2024 20:28
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36168074)
For not being right-wing enough, but when push comes to shove (the election), they’ll be supporting the Conservatives.

You forgot the Sun and the Times - both Murdoch papers, and the Evening Standard, all supporting the Conservatives…
I wonder if the Express might defect to Reform UK this year? It seems to favour Farage over Sunak.

As Labour will highly likely win anyway, backing a challenger party may be better than by association with a large Conservative defeat.

Sephiroth 10-01-2024 21:45
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36168076)
I wonder if the Express might defect to Reform UK this year? It seems to favour Farage over Sunak.

As Labour will highly likely win anyway, backing a challenger party may be better than by association with a large Conservative defeat.
I favour Farage over Sunak, obvs. But I'm a Tory party member and will not vote against John Redwood, also a great man.

Mr K 11-01-2024 20:48
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168080)
I favour Farage over Sunak, obvs. But I'm a Tory party member and will not vote against John Redwood, also a great man.
They've all failed this country in one way or another:-
Farage - Brexit
Sunak - just about everything else
Redwood - crimes against the Welsh language
Time to move on.

1andrew1 14-01-2024 23:14
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
The Telegraph EXCLUSIVE: Conservatives are heading for electoral oblivion on scale of 1997 defeat, poll reveals

The most authoritative opinion poll in five years forecasts that the Tories will retain just 169 seats, while Labour will sweep into power with 385 seats, giving Sir Keir Starmer a 120-seat majority.

🔓 This article is free to read for 24 hours
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...t-1997-labour/

Paul 14-01-2024 23:44
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
While its just a prediction, I doubt anyone is particularly surprised by it, they have self destructed quite spectacularly in the last 2/3 years.

denphone 15-01-2024 06:00
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36168235)
And this does not include tactical voting which is unlikely to favour the sitting government.

Mr K 15-01-2024 06:50
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
The collapse of the the country isn't a surprise. The electorate that voted for populists like Johnson, or listened to liars like Farage, or voted for self defeating crap like Brexit, need to take their fair share of the blame. Ultimately its down to you.

(Don't worry too much about the Tories they've plundered the country's wealth, for their own benefit, so will be ok. Prob retire to the Algarve, or Provence, where they have decent healthcare and public services).

Hugh 15-01-2024 08:20
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168080)
I favour Farage over Sunak, obvs. But I'm a Tory party member and will not vote against John Redwood, also a great man.
I’m like you - I view Redwood and Farage with the same level of esteem…

tweetiepooh 15-01-2024 09:52
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36168044)
So in a two party FPTP system, what is the answer?

---------- Post added at 12:21 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------


1. Make money for their sponsors/donors/voter base
2. Stay in Power

How is that different from any party? It's just the the [1] differs on who gets the money. And the (senior) civil service stay there and keep their jobs and pensions whoever.


The last thing we want though is a national PR system when we would never get rid of the (left of) centre groups as being the least unpopular.


If people looked at their candidates and voted for the best there we may have a better chance but too many will vote along party lines regardless, get a muppet and we get a parliament of muppets. (Small 'm' the Muppets are talented entertainers.)


The reason the Tory/Labour swaps "worked" in the past was that the Tories built up the chests then Labour came in a spent it and then the Tories...


I can image all sorts of plans from Labour that would adversely affect me and my family, one biggie would be removal of charity status from religious groups forgetting that many of those groups also provide for communities external to their "religious" affairs. VAT on books is always popping up from Labour groups. But it's not the collection of the money, it's how it is spent and simply throwing money at the NHS or any other large group never works unless you are one of those employed to work out how to spend it.

Sephiroth 15-01-2024 10:01
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36168267)
How is that different from any party? It's just the the [1] differs on who gets the money. And the (senior) civil service stay there and keep their jobs and pensions whoever.


The last thing we want though is a national PR system when we would never get rid of the (left of) centre groups as being the least unpopular.


If people looked at their candidates and voted for the best there we may have a better chance but too many will vote along party lines regardless, get a muppet and we get a parliament of muppets. (Small 'm' the Muppets are talented entertainers.)


The reason the Tory/Labour swaps "worked" in the past was that the Tories built up the chests then Labour came in a spent it and then the Tories...


I can image all sorts of plans from Labour that would adversely affect me and my family, one biggie would be removal of charity status from religious groups forgetting that many of those groups also provide for communities external to their "religious" affairs. VAT on books is always popping up from Labour groups. But it's not the collection of the money, it's how it is spent and simply throwing money at the NHS or any other large group never works unless you are one of those employed to work out how to spend it.
The above is a highly rational analysis.

spiderplant 15-01-2024 10:27
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36168255)
And this does not include tactical voting which is unlikely to favour the sitting government.
I was puzzled by that. How could it not include tactical voting?

1andrew1 15-01-2024 10:59
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36168267)
How is that different from any party? It's just the the [1] differs on who gets the money. And the (senior) civil service stay there and keep their jobs and pensions whoever.


The last thing we want though is a national PR system when we would never get rid of the (left of) centre groups as being the least unpopular.


If people looked at their candidates and voted for the best there we may have a better chance but too many will vote along party lines regardless, get a muppet and we get a parliament of muppets. (Small 'm' the Muppets are talented entertainers.)


The reason the Tory/Labour swaps "worked" in the past was that the Tories built up the chests then Labour came in a spent it and then the Tories...


I can image all sorts of plans from Labour that would adversely affect me and my family, one biggie would be removal of charity status from religious groups forgetting that many of those groups also provide for communities external to their "religious" affairs. VAT on books is always popping up from Labour groups. But it's not the collection of the money, it's how it is spent and simply throwing money at the NHS or any other large group never works unless you are one of those employed to work out how to spend it.
Don't know those swaps worked that well. Surely with all that North Sea oil and gas revenue and privatisations we should be far better off than we are now as a country, even given the recent hit from Brexit?

Sephiroth 15-01-2024 11:10
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36168271)
Don't know those swaps worked that well. Surely with all that North Sea oil and gas revenue and privatisations we should be far better off than we are now as a country, even given the recent hit from Brexit?
Which privatisations, though? The utilities are a disaster and have done nothing for the exchequer beyond corporation tax. A better regulation scheme might have seen a better outcome.

That said, an arm's length operation, such as the Post Office, hasn't exactly worked out.

denphone 15-01-2024 11:57
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderplant (Post 36168270)
I was puzzled by that. How could it not include tactical voting?
Best to ask the company who carried the polling for the Daily Telegraph.

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderplant (Post 36168270)
I was puzzled by that. How could it not include tactical voting?
The Electoral Calculus model based on current polling suggest a even worst result for the government.

Whatever polling one looks at the Government is heading for train wreck territory.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/...ary=2019nbbase

1andrew1 15-01-2024 12:28
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168276)
Which privatisations, though? The utilities are a disaster and have done nothing for the exchequer beyond corporation tax. A better regulation scheme might have seen a better outcome.

That said, an arm's length operation, such as the Post Office, hasn't exactly worked out.
What I meant was from a coffers side - ie selling all those companies should mean we're better off financially.

Agree with you on the Post Office, a Conservative manifesto should really suggest privatising it.

Sephiroth 15-01-2024 12:47
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36168286)
What I meant was from a coffers side - ie selling all those companies should mean we're better off financially.

Agree with you on the Post Office, a Conservative manifesto should really suggest privatising it.
It was fine before when it was part of the Royal Mail.

But like energy (wholesalers/retailers), the government were hell bent on separating the delivery of mail from the post offices that would feed the Royal Mail. Why? The lefties may well say so that their mates can get something out of it. But really, it was about shedding subsidy and that comes down to the question of public service vs profit.

We've seen with the PO 'privatisation', the government being the single shareholder, is that the CEO has been struggling for profit, withdrawing services from public availability (closing POs), which is perverse. Then the Royal Mail is trying to do the same by raising prices, trying to reduce deliveries and basically shafting the public. The two together, could at least coordinate policy and the government to recognise its obligation to maintain a public service.

The UK is structurally broken, imo, and this is a minute aspect of this wider question.

daveeb 15-01-2024 14:53
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36168282)
Best to ask the company who carried the polling for the Daily Telegraph.

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------



The Electoral Calculus model based on current polling suggest a even worst result for the government.

Whatever polling one looks at the Government is heading for train wreck territory.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/...ary=2019nbbase
Lets hope they've got this one correct, or even erring on the side of caution :)

Hugh 15-01-2024 20:31
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderplant (Post 36168270)
[b]I was puzzled by that. How could it not include tactical voting?[/b
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36168282)
Best to ask the company who carried the polling for the Daily Telegraph.

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------



The Electoral Calculus model based on current polling suggest a even worst result for the government.

Whatever polling one looks at the Government is heading for train wreck territory.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/...ary=2019nbbase
It did include Tactical Voting - the DT’s statement was not congruent with actuality…

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articl...ere-held-today

Quote:
Finally, the Daily Telegraph also said that the YouGov MRP model does not account for tactical voting in its estimated shares. This is not the case – our model does provision for tactical voting in its design, including by estimating constituency competition effects as part of the model equation. It does not, however, apply any post-hoc readjustments to vote share estimates based on any assumed model of tactical voting beyond what we already have in the data.
YouGov also clarified* another of the DT’s comments

Quote:
A separate note by the Daily Telegraph suggested that the presence of Reform UK is the difference between Labour securing a majority and not. This is their own calculation using our data, and appears to be based simply on adding the Conservative and Reform UK vote shares together in each constituency, which is not a reliable way of measuring their impact.

Were Reform UK not to contest the election, it is extremely unlikely that all, or even a majority, of their voters would transfer to the Conservatives. Some would go to UKIP and splinter parties, some to Labour and other established parties, and some would simply stay at home – YouGov polling in October found only 31% of Reform UK voters would be willing to vote Conservative if Reform UK were not standing in their constituency.
*pointed out they were fibbing

ianch99 16-01-2024 15:06
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36168267)
How is that different from any party? It's just the the [1] differs on who gets the money. And the (senior) civil service stay there and keep their jobs and pensions whoever.


The last thing we want though is a national PR system when we would never get rid of the (left of) centre groups as being the least unpopular.


If people looked at their candidates and voted for the best there we may have a better chance but too many will vote along party lines regardless, get a muppet and we get a parliament of muppets. (Small 'm' the Muppets are talented entertainers.)


The reason the Tory/Labour swaps "worked" in the past was that the Tories built up the chests then Labour came in a spent it and then the Tories...


I can image all sorts of plans from Labour that would adversely affect me and my family, one biggie would be removal of charity status from religious groups forgetting that many of those groups also provide for communities external to their "religious" affairs. VAT on books is always popping up from Labour groups. But it's not the collection of the money, it's how it is spent and simply throwing money at the NHS or any other large group never works unless you are one of those employed to work out how to spend it.
It is as if you have not lived through the last 13 years :) You seriously think the Labour Party sponsors/donors/voter base has the same level of wealth as the Tory one? If you do, you really do need to think again.

You seem to favour the status quo i.e. a right of centre executive striving to achieve a low tax, small state utopia designed to maximise the profits of private enterprise at the expense of the wider population. Look around you and consider the state of the nation's infrastructure and ask yourself if you want 5 more years of this. Then add the divisive culture wars, etc. for good measure.

Sephiroth 16-01-2024 15:13
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
He doesn't want 5 more years of 'this'. Nor does he want 5 years of Labour and the divisions and incompetence they'll bring.

We really are up shit creek nix paddle.

denphone 16-01-2024 15:23
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168339)
He doesn't want 5 more years of 'this'. Nor does he want 5 years of Labour and the divisions and incompetence they'll bring.

We really are up shit creek nix paddle.
Quite...

---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 15:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168339)
He doesn't want 5 more years of 'this'. Nor does he want 5 years of Labour and the divisions and incompetence they'll bring.

We really are up shit creek nix paddle.
All unproven as of yet as they are not the government of the day currently.;)

Sephiroth 16-01-2024 15:42
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36168341)
Quite...

---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 15:22 ----------



All unproven as of yet as they are not the government of the day currently.;)

Labour is a book you can judge by its cover. They are rowing back on promises; they have no plan for the economy; no plan for immigration. They are the same spinners/liars as the Conservatives.

It's very bad when we shouldn't be saying 'anyone but the Tories' because the others won't be any better.

TheDaddy 16-01-2024 15:47
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168345)

Labour is a book you can judge by its cover. They are rowing back on promises; they have no plan for the economy; no plan for immigration. They are the same spinners/liars as the Conservatives.

It's very bad when we shouldn't be saying 'anyone but the Tories' because the others won't be any better.
Right now I'll settle for less corrupt, less incompetent and less cronyie, anyone but them will do fine

Sephiroth 16-01-2024 16:02
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36168346)
Right now I'll settle for less corrupt, less incompetent and less cronyie, anyone but them will do fine
Unfortunately a lot of people will agree with you: punish the Tories.

Britain is completely broken save for the efforts of British business that keep things going.

If Labour can unbreak that my whatsit's a kipper.

Chris 16-01-2024 16:16
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168347)
Unfortunately a lot of people will agree with you: punish the Tories.

Britain is completely broken save for the efforts of British business that keep things going.

If Labour can unbreak that my whatsit's a kipper.
For all your chest beating and lamenting about the state of the Tory party and the mess it is presently making of the country, you’re clearly content to continue to support them and give them another 5 years at it. No wonder that you can’t understand why someone might vote for a different party - you see the value of doing so only as a punishment, some sort of means of disciplining the rightful party of government so that it might learn the error of its ways.

The thing is, they are not the rightful party of government and voting for someone other than them isn’t a punishment. It’s an alternative choice. As things stand right now it is hard to believe Labour could possibly be as bad. Yes, there are some complete wingnuts on their back benches, but then there are some complete wingnuts sitting behind the Prime Miniature in the commons right now (and one or two sat next to him as well).

Starmer doesn’t fill me with paroxysms of joy but he does strike me as a capable, if boring, leader, with an eye for detail and experience of running a serious public service. He literally can’t do any worse than Rishi Sunak and given Sunak’s almost complete disconnection from how most of us actually live in this country he is almost inevitably going to do better.

Hugh 16-01-2024 16:22
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168347)
Unfortunately a lot of people will agree with you: punish the Tories.

Britain is completely broken save for the efforts of British business that keep things going.

If Labour can unbreak that my whatsit's a kipper.
Ok, Ace…

https://i.imgur.com/uH9z7x8.gif

daveeb 16-01-2024 16:54
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36168349)
For all your chest beating and lamenting about the state of the Tory party and the mess it is presently making of the country, you’re clearly content to continue to support them and give them another 5 years at it. No wonder that you can’t understand why someone might vote for a different party - you see the value of doing so only as a punishment, some sort of means of disciplining the rightful party of government so that it might learn the error of its ways.

The thing is, they are not the rightful party of government and voting for someone other than them isn’t a punishment. It’s an alternative choice. As things stand right now it is hard to believe Labour could possibly be as bad. Yes, there are some complete wingnuts on their back benches, but then there are some complete wingnuts sitting behind the Prime Miniature in the commons right now (and one or two sat next to him as well).

Starmer doesn’t fill me with paroxysms of joy but he does strike me as a capable, if boring, leader, with an eye for detail and experience of running a serious public service. He literally can’t do any worse than Rishi Sunak and given Sunak’s almost complete disconnection from how most of us actually live in this country he is almost inevitably going to do better.
Succinctly put and every observation spot on from my point of view. It's somewhat dissapointing that I feel so underwhelmed at the prospect of Keir Starmer running the show but your last sentence describes the situation very nicely. ;)

Dave42 16-01-2024 18:04
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Brendan Clarke-Smith and 30p Lee Anderson resign from roles

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-depu...ments-13049746

Mr K 16-01-2024 18:30
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36168355)
Brendan Clarke-Smith and 30p Lee Anderson resign from roles

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-depu...ments-13049746
What a massive loss to racist bigots everywhere.

Dave42 16-01-2024 19:56
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36168356)
What a massive loss to racist bigots everywhere.
aye and Richard Tice has invited them both to join reform

https://twitter.com/christopherhope/...27165207634004

Hugh 16-01-2024 20:19
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36168361)
aye and Richard Tice has invited them both to join reform

https://twitter.com/christopherhope/...27165207634004

Well, that will help raise the average IQ level of both organisations…

Paul 16-01-2024 20:57
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36168349)
Starmer doesn’t fill me with paroxysms of joy but he does strike me as a capable, if boring, leader, with an eye for detail and experience of running a serious public service. He literally can’t do any worse than Rishi Sunak and given Sunak’s almost complete disconnection from how most of us actually live in this country he is almost inevitably going to do better.
The prospect of labour and Starmer does not fill me with any joy at all, and I dont know if hes capable or not.
I do know we'll find out soon enough, and tbh, at this point it is quite hard to imagine how he could do any worse.

That said, lots of people said we could not do worse than BoJo, and yet we got Liz .... :erm:

Mr K 18-01-2024 09:56
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Lee Anderson has said he could not vote against Rishi Sunak’s Rwanda bill because Labour MPs were “giggling” at him.

The ex-Tory deputy chairman, who quit on Tuesday in order to rebel over the policy, said opposition MPs were “giggling and laughing and taking the mick”, adding: “I couldn’t vote"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2480667.html

Ah, he's such a delicate flower !
A bit daft to resign to do something, then you don't end up doing it!

1andrew1 18-01-2024 11:18
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36168464)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2480667.html

Ah, he's such a delicate flower !
A bit daft to resign to do something, then you don't end up doing it!
:D:D:D

Sephiroth 18-01-2024 12:44
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
I've bought the popcorn, so to speak. Can't wait to watch the fun and games that will now ensue.

In a sense, Sunak was right to not allow amendment because it would result in a breach of international law, which is a bad thing for the UK to be doing. But that, in turn, was driven by Rwanda threatening to pull out if we breached international law. A vicious circle on a scheme that cannot work.

So - what to do; bite the real bullet and turn the boats back to France. There will be some sea dramas, but not for long. France will rattle its sabres but at the end of the day, France is allowing the UK to be invaded. We should not be afraid of facing France and even the EU down.

The above is in the absence of a comprehensive agreement between all European countries (a very difficult thing to achieve) - but we should get that ball rolling.

Damien 18-01-2024 12:46
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Sunak is perceived as weak but these so-called rebels are even weaker. This is the 2nd (maybe 3rd?) time they've talked a good game, given themselves weird names like 'The 5 Families', and done tours of the news studios talking themselves up before meekly giving into Sunak with no concessions.

Hopefully, the news companies will just ignore them next time. They've proven time and time again that they're all talk and no action so why waste time on their childish antics?

Dave42 18-01-2024 13:07
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Sunak was totally right in calling there bluff and the rebels folded so easily all bark no bite

ianch99 18-01-2024 14:21
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168474)
I've bought the popcorn, so to speak. Can't wait to watch the fun and games that will now ensue.

In a sense, Sunak was right to not allow amendment because it would result in a breach of international law, which is a bad thing for the UK to be doing. But that, in turn, was driven by Rwanda threatening to pull out if we breached international law. A vicious circle on a scheme that cannot work.

So - what to do; bite the real bullet and turn the boats back to France. There will be some sea dramas, but not for long. France will rattle its sabres but at the end of the day, France is allowing the UK to be invaded. We should not be afraid of facing France and even the EU down.

The above is in the absence of a comprehensive agreement between all European countries (a very difficult thing to achieve) - but we should get that ball rolling.
It is always amusing when someone peddles populist tag lines without actually thinking through how it might actually be done, both in practical and legal terms.

Sephiroth 18-01-2024 14:38
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36168477)
It is always amusing when someone peddles populist tag lines without actually thinking through how it might actually be done, both in practical and legal terms.
True - but to balance this out, note Starmer's weasel words "sustainable ceasefire" after he was pressured by the Muslim MPs.

Hugh 18-01-2024 15:37
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36168477)
It is always amusing when someone peddles populist tag lines without actually thinking through how it might actually be done, both in practical and legal terms.
Speaking of which....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68017887

Quote:
Rishi Sunak has been rebuked by the UK's statistics watchdog over his claim to have cleared the backlog of asylum claims.

The Home Office claimed earlier this month to have cleared a "legacy" backlog of 92,000 applications lodged before July 2022.

The prime minister then posted on social media to say "the backlog of asylum decisions" had been cleared.

But the watchdog said people may have felt "misled" by his language.

Official figures show a decision had not been reached in 4,537 of the "legacy" cases highlighted by the Home Office.

And they also showed that there are still 98,599 cases in the overall backlog where an initial decision has yet to be made.

In a letter to opposition MPs who had complained, the UK Statistics Authority (UKSA) said Mr Sunak's claim had been "presented without context".

The boss of the watchdog, Sir Robert Chote, added that the episode "may affect public trust when the government sets targets and announces whether they have been met" in other areas.

He also criticised the Home Office for not detailing the 4,537 legacy cases without a decision when it initially made its announcement in an embargoed press release to journalists.

This prevented reporters from being "able to scrutinise the data when first reporting it," he added.
Quote:
The reprimand comes just weeks after the UKSA rebuked No 10 for saying that the government had reduced debt.

The watchdog suggested that claim "may have undermined trust in the government's use of statistics".

The prime minister was also criticised for his use of asylum backlog figures in April 2023. He had said that the backlog was half the size it was when Labour was last in office, but the UKSA said he was comparing with the wrong figures.

Dave42 23-01-2024 21:27
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
No10 braced for leadership onslaught tonight.
Aides expecting incoming fire from senior party figures going public imminently
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/stat...99784461148281

denphone 24-01-2024 07:33
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36168840)
Another day and another Tory Psychodrama plays out while the citizens of this country struggle to access even basic public services, while also some struggle to pay their bills and make ends meet.

Mr K 24-01-2024 09:20
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36168856)
Another day and another Tory Psychodrama plays out while the citizens of this country struggle to access even basic public services, while also some struggle to pay their bills and make ends meet.
Thing is Den, they think tax cuts will save them, running down public services even more. Totally out of touch. Not surprising, since none of them use public services.

Sephiroth 24-01-2024 09:46
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36168858)
Thing is Den, they think tax cuts will save them, running down public services even more. Totally out of touch. Not surprising, since none of them use public services.
I'm so embarrassed that my party's upper echelons can be so bad.

I've renewed my membership because the party must surely reform after the GE. I'll risk snide responses by saying that I'm one of the proper Conservatives who want the party to demonstrably return to the general principles of the Thatcher days. That said, I'm not happy about the big utilities sell-off and I suspect that will come right in due course.

denphone 24-01-2024 09:52
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36168858)
Thing is Den, they think tax cuts will save them, running down public services even more. Totally out of touch. Not surprising, since none of them use public services.
Polling suggest the vast majority don't want tax cuts but want better funded public services.

1andrew1 24-01-2024 09:59
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36168861)
Polling suggest the vast majority don't want tax cuts but want better funded public services.
Suspect there's a big gap between Conservatives and the electorate on this. Conservatives are being dragged away from what their boots on the ground are telling them by the need to keep up with the agenda set by UKIP and Farage.

tweetiepooh 24-01-2024 10:21
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Maybe folk don't want tax cuts but how many would support tax rises. Especially in the middle classes - lower end of the higher tax bracket. Left wing parties have a history of increasing the higher rates sometimes to eye watering amounts but the really rich will find ways to avoid it.

Sephiroth 24-01-2024 11:11
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Imo, the two changes those fools should make are:

1. Restore the tax thresholds immediately;

2. Cut corporation tax.



Ms NTL 24-01-2024 13:11
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168865)
Imo, the two changes those fools should make are:

1. Restore the tax thresholds immediately;

On 1: get somebody that understands basic maths, to correct the errors on personal allowance. It's ok to lose it once, but twice is not correct. HMRC has given thousands of taxpayers a tax code ending with X. HMRC does not know what to do.

I agree on restoring them

Hugh 24-01-2024 13:33
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168865)
Imo, the two changes those fools should make are:

1. Restore the tax thresholds immediately;

2. Cut corporation tax.


What would be the benefits of cutting Corporation Tax?

Sephiroth 24-01-2024 13:38
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36168868)
What would be the benefits of cutting Corporation Tax?
I'm not sure whether you are laying a trap here. Why else would you put this question?


But obviously, reducing CT could attract business investment leading to greater wealth.

Hugh 24-01-2024 13:47
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168869)
I'm not sure whether you are laying a trap here. Why else would you put this question?


But obviously, reducing CT could attract business investment leading to greater wealth.
Greater wealth for who?

The U.K. already has permanent full expensing (100% tax deduction) for all qualifying plant and machinery investments - this has increased total business investment by £14 billion over the forecast period or £3 billion a year (1.2 per cent on average)…

https://obr.uk/box/the-impact-of-cor...20March%202023.

You may (or may not) find this research of interest…

https://www.ippr.org/articles/cuttin...ing-investment

Quote:
The way corporation tax cuts are justified goes something like this: the UK has low levels of productivity and low levels of capital investment, and both need to rise. By cutting tax rates, this reduces the tax bill of firms, putting money on their balance sheet that they will then invest in capital or research and development (R&D), which will result in economic growth. A secondary aim is that by having a 'competitive' tax rate (ie lower than comparable countries) the UK will be a more attractive investment destination.

The problem with this story is that it has not turned out like that. Whilst UK corporation tax rates have fallen since 2007, private sector investment is still amongst the lowest in the OECD, the lowest in the G7, and far below the average among developed economies. Corporate tax cuts have failed on their own promise.

As shown in figure 2, compared to comparable countries such as the USA, Germany, France and Japan, the UK has low private sector investment as a proportion of GDP. In 2019 the UK fell behind Italy and Canada to have the lowest private sector investment in the G7 as a proportion of GDP (figure 3).

Within the OECD group of developed economies, the UK fell in the rankings from mid-range in 1995 to second from bottom in 2008. In the past decade, the UK’s highest ranking for private sector investment within the OECD was in 2016, when it ranked 28th out of 35 countries. In 2020, the most recent year for which we have good data, the UK was 28th out of 31 OECD countries, and bottom of the G7 (table 1).

What is clear from this is that cutting corporation tax has failed to increase the UK’s dire levels of private sector investment. In fact, while we have been engaged in the race to the bottom on business taxation, our relative performance on business investment has been worsening.
Quote:
Figure 4 compares the UK to other OECD countries (for whom we have data) on levels of corporate taxation and private sector investment in 2020. Firstly, there is little to no correlation between low corporation tax and higher levels of private sector investment. Secondly, the UK is already amongst the lowest tax rates in the OECD and, as already established, the lowest levels of private sector investment. Lastly, most developed economies have both higher rates of corporation tax and higher levels of private sector investment.
Quote:
What can we conclude from this?

1. Cutting corporation tax is no panacea for raising investment

2. Over the past decade we have cut corporation tax, and this has failed on its own promise of increasing private sector investment

3. Despite having some of the lowest levels of corporate taxation in the OECD, we also have some of the lowest levels of business investment

4. Most of our competitors have much higher levels of both corporation tax and investment
tl:dr - it’s not that simple

Sephiroth 24-01-2024 13:54
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36168870)
The U.K. already has permanent full expensing (100% tax deduction) for all qualifying plant and machinery investments - this has increased total business investment by £14 billion over the forecast period or £3 billion a year (1.2 per cent on average)…

https://obr.uk/box/the-impact-of-cor...20March%202023.

You may (or may not) find this research of interest…

https://www.ippr.org/articles/cuttin...ing-investment







tl:dr - it’s not that simple
Just as well that I did not add "simples" to my post!

Ms NTL 24-01-2024 14:32
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
See Ireland

Hugh 24-01-2024 16:06
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms NTL (Post 36168873)
See Ireland
Again, not that simple…

https://velocityglobal.com/resources...hoose-ireland/

Quote:
In a recent Economist Intelligence Unit report, 46% of respondents highlighted “access to EU markets” as the most important competitive advantage of doing business in Ireland.

Respondents prioritized Ireland’s strategic location over other key advantages, including access to local skills and the country’s low corporate tax rate.
https://www.nathantrust.com/insights...-us-tech-firms

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1706564940

Hugh 29-01-2024 21:47
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...whatsapp-group

Quote:
Kemi Badenoch is member of ‘Evil Plotters’ Tory WhatsApp group

Exclusive: Business secretary who has told party rebels to stop ‘stirring’ and back PM is in group along with Michael Gove

Kemi Badenoch is a member of a Conservative WhatsApp group called “Evil Plotters” despite telling party rebels to “stop messing around” and get behind Rishi Sunak, the Guardian can reveal.

The business secretary, who consistently comes out as the favourite cabinet minister in polls of Tory members, has criticised party colleagues for “stirring” up suggestions that she could replace the prime minister.

In a round of broadcast interviews on Sunday, she dismissed speculation over the plot to topple Sunak as “Westminster tittle-tattle” and said colleagues who put her name forward as an alternative were “not my friends”.

However, the Guardian has been told that Badenoch and Michael Gove, the levelling up secretary, who is regarded as a key backer, are members of a WhatsApp group of similarly minded Tory MPs who are rallying round the business secretary’s longer-term ambitions.

Tory sources said that while Badenoch was not actively plotting to remove Sunak before the next election, her team was ready to “leap into action” should the prime minister be forced out, or if he stood down as party leader following an election defeat.
What would be nice, imho, is that the people supposedly running the country focused on actually doing their current jobs rather than seemingly spending a large proportion of the time and efforts in trying to set up their next job…

Maggy 30-01-2024 09:17
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36169131)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...whatsapp-group



What would be nice, imho, is that the people supposedly running the country focused on actually doing their current jobs rather than seemingly spending a large proportion of the time and efforts in trying to set up their next job…
:tu:

TheDaddy 30-01-2024 16:36
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
A Conservative appointed independent inquiry has ruled there was no corruption involved when the Conservative mayor of Teesside sold land worth £120 million to two tory chums for £100, thank goodness that's been cleared up :erm:

denphone 30-01-2024 19:02
Re: The Chronicles of Rishi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36169188)
A Conservative appointed independent inquiry has ruled there was no corruption involved when the Conservative mayor of Teesside sold land worth £120 million to two tory chums for £100, thank goodness that's been cleared up :erm:
Yep its the usual sweep it under the carpet Tory whitewash which many of us have got used to these past few years.


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