Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I'm not so sure. As Old Boy previously said, let's wait for the report.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

How come Cap'n Hindsight isn't being handed a fixed penalty fine? ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I didn’t think you were a fan of Cummings either, Andrew.

Photo or photos, we still need to get the explanation for them.

I am the one asking people to reserve their final judgement until we know the result of the police investigation and we have the full Sue Gray report. Thanks for getting on board, though. Better late than never.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60286234

But I’m sure you knew that… ;)

Or did you mean Johnson?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-what-he-meant

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Well, you see, it wasn’t a party or a social event. No it was a work event. Well, OK, not a work event, but a break for lunch…and yes, with a beer….and yes with work colleagues during an election campaign…

The police, it seems, agreed.

On that measure, Boris should be fine, don’t you think?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

That rule applies to us but not Old Boy. Reminds me of another set of rules. ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Indeed, we must. ‘Nuff said.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Does the term "false equivalence" mean anything to you?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I can’t believe that you are inferring that OLD BOY would use exaggerated or oversimplified comparisons… ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Leaving parties don't count the same as a dinner break, is that really what your saying :spin:

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Absolutely, unlike some posters on here! :D

---------- Post added at 19:15 ---------- Previous post was at 19:13 ----------

Perish the thought. There’s no way I could compete with you, Hugh! ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Me? :angel:

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Welsh AMS have a booze up in the restaurant of the assembly . No body cared are it was noted that they were labour AMs . Died a death in the "press" police not interested :rolleyes: ps Welsh AMs made the law in Wales :shocked:

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Are we still waiting for Sue Gray’s full report before we decide if any rules/laws were broken?

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www....rtygate-fines/

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Yes, and the conclusion of the police investigation.

Boris has not been personally implicated so far, much to the disappointment of his detractors.

It’s all beginning to look like fluff, wouldn’t you say, Hugh?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

No! His faithful followers will see to it that someone else will take the blame by throwing themselves under the bus.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I imagine it's taking a bit of time to tot up Johnson's fines. :D

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

:D
We must await the Sue Gray report which will be published after the May election to avoid national politics having an undemocratic impact on voting in what are really local elections. ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

No, I wouldn’t…

You appear to be stating that we need to wait till the end of the police investigation to understand if any laws have been broken, even though three groups of people have already been given fixed penalty notices for breaking the law…

Johnson has admitted attending three of the twelve parties under investigation - you appear to be pre-judging the outcome… ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

"Let's wait until the Sue Gray report is published" is what Old Boys tells us all to do but then he breaks those rules himself!

Reminds me of something else. ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

remember the tories can never do anything wrong according to OB his rose tinted glasses are on forever

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Are we actually interested in the evidence or is this just a personal vendetta? :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 19:35 ----------

It will be published when the police investigation is completed.

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:36 ----------

I’m not pre-judging anything - you are.

I am aware of the fines, but Boris has not had one, and I don’t think he will either, from what I have read, but yes, there may be things that have not come out yet. As long as he is not found to have broken the rules personally, there is no case for him to answer.

Boris has not admitted to attending any parties. He may have attended work events, but he would say they were not parties. Whether or not that is true is for the police to judge.

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:42 ----------

I’ve given my opinion, sure, but I have always maintained that it is for the police to judge whether or not that is correct.

You, however, seem to have abandoned any notion of proof before judgement, which I find rather worrying. Let’s hope you are never falsely accused of anything.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

[QUOTE=OLD BOY;36118214]Are we actually interested in the evidence or is this just a personal vendetta? :rolleyes:

He's in charge..

---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 19:35 ----------

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

The irony. You've just done exactly that. :D

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

[QUOTE=Maggy;36118221]But apparently, he didn’t know. So that makes him guilty. Yes, whatever!

---------- Post added at 23:31 ---------- Previous post was at 23:29 ----------

You’re twisting it again Andrew. There’s no point in discussing stuff if it’s just a game to you.

For the umpteenth time, we must await due process. That’s how it works and that’s what most democratic, fair minded people expect

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Which is all well and good, but also very much at odds with this:

… in which you’re clearly trying to steer the discussion towards your preferred conclusion even though you acknowledge due process is ongoing.

Make your mind up which side of the barricade you’re on, because you can’t be on both at once.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Exactly

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Strangely enough, being ignorant of the law is no excuse (especially when you implemented the rules & repeatedly reminded everyone in daily broadcasts to follow the rules)

And especially when in hindsight you admit you realised you were breaking the rules…

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberth...h=5f5678e65777

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I'm actually attempting to make people think about finding him guilty before they have the evidence. That is all. What's wrong with that?

---------- Post added at 07:24 ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 ----------

Nobody (apart from the witching brigade) has said he didn't know the law. What the PM himself has said is that he didn't realise that any of the events he attended were parties. He thought they were all directly connected to the work (and breaks from work, such as the Starmer 'excuse').

On that 25 minute session in his garden, for example, he was told by his aides that he might want to say a few words to thank the team for their work during the epidemic, which he did. If it continued as a social event, you can see how he may not have known about that, because he was himself at work.

The hindsight he talked about was along the lines of 'If I knew then what I know now', Starmer-like.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Old Boy, disappointingly, you're still doing precisely what Chris outlined earlier - trying to be on both sides of the barrier.

You can either try and defend Johnson (as you have done above above) or you can say wait until the Sue Gray report. You can't do both.

And if you're taking the approach of waiting upon due process, calling the fact that Starmer was cleared of any wrong doing an excuse shows that you won't respect due process if the outcome doesn't confirm to your pre-judgments anyway.

It comes across to me that you're not genuinely signed up to this wait until the Sue Gray report philosophy. You're just using it to try and bat away criticism of the No 10 parties.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

One can defend a person who has not been found guilty by saying wait for the outcome of an investigation. That would not be trying to be on both sides of a barrier.
You can also state information in support of the defendant where the outcome is still unknown/unpublished.
There are far bigger things to sort out at the moment and for our government and parliament to focus on than some infringement of a rule about parties. If found to have broken the rules then they get fined like anyone else, if the country thinks something further is required it will say so in the next ballot.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

It's not about rules infringement, it's about the break-down in trust between government and the governed. That's pretty fundamental.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

My trust in the Government ended somewhere in the early 1970's.
I appreciate that I may be alone in this, and many many people still believe that politicians (car salesmen, solicitors,TV advert etc) are honest and truthful in all they do and say.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I'm impressed you ever trusted them at all. :angel:

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Andrew, in your mind he is guilty and you say that without having all the facts yet. I am simply presenting the alternative scenario, which you don’t seem to want to contemplate.

I’m not saying that scenario is correct, because I don’t know any more than you do, but my main message is to wait until we have all the facts. I find it amazing that such a straight forward concept as that is so hard to grasp. It’s surely what you’d say if you were accused of something you didn’t do.

I really do think that you want to argue rather than discuss. You may be right sometimes, but not all the time, much like everyone else.

---------- Post added at 13:35 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

Yes, as a result of the big deal Starmer has been making out of all this. Who do you think people will trust if the end result shows that Boris was not complicit?

All of your arguments are based on your fixed belief that Boris is guilty. Even though you don’t have all the facts. Incredible.

---------- Post added at 13:35 ---------- Previous post was at 13:35 ----------

Well said, tweetie.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Is it a ‘fact’ that Boris knew? The first thing the police will be doing is finding out whether he did know. Although I have to say, even if he did, he would not get a fine if he wasn’t present. If he knew that the events he did attend were parties, he will be in trouble.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

The points I have been making do not concern Johnson's guilt or innocence.

They're about your insisting everyone else waits until the Sue Gray report is out before commenting on the No 10 party photos we've seen, whilst giving yourself permission to comment on them.

It's what Chris politely termed wanting to sit on both sides of the barrier. I find it disappointing that you can't see the contradiction in your approach.

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------

Ignorance of the law is no defence, so if anyone was found to have attended parties, they would be fined etc.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I appreciate many many people are like me and believe politicians should be honest and truthful and that there should be meaningful consequences when they're found not to be, if that's to high an aspiration in the Mother of all Parliaments then what's the point of it all, we might as well give up on it and let the extremist elements who are happy to put up with this crap as long as their side wins lie it out amongst themselves

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

If I went in a room at work AND it happened to be my birthday AND there were loads of people there AND there was a birthday cake with my name AND candles on it AND people started signing happy birthday GrimUpNorth AND they told me to make a wish while I blew out the candles AND there were nibbles AND as well as work colleagues there were family AND friends there AND there was no sign of any work being done or meeting agendas etc, then I'd think I was at a birthday party AND I don't think I'd need a senior Civil Servant to confirm that too me. I'd think anyone who thought different certainly isn't Prime Minister material.

However you obviously think differently.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

See, that's the difference between us plebs and the politicians.
We would know it was a birthday party, but politician types have to put it to a sub-committee, followed by a further full review at a select committee before final analysis at a private commons meeting. . . . oh, (mutter mutter) and something about Sue Gray

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Don’t forget when you went to a "booze session" in the garden to have "a few words" with some of your staff, and left after 25 minutes - you obviously spoke those "few words" very, very, very slowly…

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Come on, Hugh, you really think that was a booze session..:D

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Not at all. You are assuming the PM has broken the law and nothing anyone says convinces you otherwise, despite the fact that you have not heard the whole story.

My view is that the PM May be innocent after all and I’vetried to explain why, but I am perfectly prepared to concede that he broke the law if that’s where the evidence leads us. Once again, let’s make our minds up when we have all the facts.

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:45 ----------

Well, all this has been said before, and all this has been answered. Yet still we go around in another circle. I’m not answering it all again if nobody’s listening. I’ll leave you all to play amongst yourselves.

The truth will out soon enough.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

A limited mind can only handle a limited amount of "facts", you may be trying to push the envelope too far in this case;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Acknowledging this is a good start, well done, you'll get there :tu:

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I don’t, but that’s what the invite said… ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I'm not assuming anything, you're putting up a straw man and then demolishing it. If you've made a solid defence of Johnson then great but I've not seen it.

I've always accepted Johnson may be innocent or guilty. But the balance of evidence favours his being guilty. That's why loyal Conservatives like Seph feel that Johnson is no longer an electoral asset to the Party.

My issue has been for the reason Chris outlined - your wanting to be on both sides of the barrier.

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:46 ----------

It's been tough seeing the news recently - the war in Ukraine, surging energy prices and the uplift in National Insurance premiums. But when I read a story like this I put that all to the back of my mind and rejoice. ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I think you’re being a little harsh on OLD BOY…

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I think that Boris can apologise even if he is subsequently found totally "innocent".



He is the leader and those he chose/employs/works for him, even indirectly, did do something that hurt others so he can show some regret that it happened.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

To be fair, many world leaders/statesmen are becoming quite good at apologizing 'on behalf of' . . . but it's normally for something that happened 200 years ago :D

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Johnson has already apologised several times.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

What's interesting now is the situation with Sunak. Yes, Johnson can get fined and he will be even less of an electoral asset than he is at present. But Sunak's popularity is now wiped out so the obvious candidate to step into Johnson's shoes is gone.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Except, it wasn’t aimed at me….:D

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:37 ----------

Not for personally breaking the rules, though. He’s apologising for the behaviour of some of his staff at no 10.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown par
 

Of course it wasn’t..

The staff he is responsible for and is in charge of?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown par
 

Well, as he is Prime Minister, he’d hardly have the time to micromanage his staff, would he? He is trying to run the country, after all.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-61081386

---------- Post added at 13:47 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

Johnson and Sunak to be fined over lockdown parties

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61083402

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak to be fined over lockdown-breaking parties in Downing Street


https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...treet-12577277

so OB now he be proven guilty you still gonna defend the undefendable he broke the law he made

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Old Boy? Calling Old Boy …

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I'm sure it will be something along the lines of 'let's wait for the Sue Gray Report". ;)

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

50% right…

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=1403

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

No, if he broke the law, he broke the law. The fine will be paid and that’s that.

I would like to know what actually happened, though. I’m sure it will all come out in the end.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

defending the undefendable no surprise there

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Read my post again and tell me where I defended it. You guys read into posts stuff that is not even there.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

As one who leads, do you accept he has a responsibility to model the behaviour he requires of others? Do you not believe his failure to do so carries a moral burden above and beyond the paying of a fine?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

On the first question, yes. On the second, the penalty is a fine. Anything over and above that is spite.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

This was because of the Abba Party right?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Carrie Johnson fined too now

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...treet-12577277

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

:shocked:

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Well that’s interesting, because neither of my questions addresses the strict letter of the law. Both my questions address the moral issues around what we expect of our leaders and the moral consequences of their failure. Yet while you’re prepared to accept the higher moral standard implicit in my first question, you dodge it in the second question by flipping over to the issue of strict legal liability and penalty.

The issue in strictly legal terms is that he broke the same law as many other people have done and received the same penalty. In terms of his obligations under law, case closed. However, what I’d love you to do is to set that aside and address the issue purely in terms of what we as a society expect of our leaders and how we expect them to act when they fall short of those expectations.

There are innumerable examples of senior government ministers - even prime ministers - resigning due to serious errors of judgment even where those incidents fell short of criminality. I’m curious to hear your reasons why you think Boris Johnson is not under a moral obligation to resign, given the extremely serious context in which his criminal behaviour occurred.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Carrie Johnson also being fined, i wonder if Rishi's wife will also be fined.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I don’t know. Can you be non-domiciled for covid fine purposes … ?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Was wondering that myself, if she is fined she can probably deduct it from the £20,000,000 she avoided paying in tax to hubby.

---------- Post added at 14:40 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------

I suppose they could contest [That it was a party]and have their day in court, it is a grey area.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I was merely referring to the legal situation.

Yes, of course it was morally wrong, and it is also expected that he should offer his resignation if he lied to Parliament, as it now appears he did.

However, I still think that in the scheme of things, this is trivial, but of course his detractors would not agree. Whether this is the end of his Prime Ministership, we will have to wait and see, but he will certainly be damaged by this.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

You think it’s trivial for a Prime Minister to lie to Parliament?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

The grand scheme of things is a global pandemic that resulted in unprecedented curbs on our freedom which we are only now, more than 2 years later, properly seeing the back of. There are many ways I would describe the behaviour of those who imposed those rules, only to then deliberately break them. ‘Trivial’ is not one of them.

Any politician, of any party, in any previous generation, would be preparing their resignation speech at this point. If Boris is not doing so, then that is extraordinary.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

From that leftie rag, The Spectator…

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...nister-must-go

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

It's a fixed penalty notice not murder.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I can only refer you to my earlier comments about the moral responsibilities of leadership.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

It is a trivial matter to break lockdown rules.

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:07 ----------

I guess it depends what you call ‘trivial’. It would not be trivial if it was an imprisonable offence.

The global pandemic was not trivial, I agree, but I don’t think partygate caused any deaths, do you?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

The police think it was a party, Boris still may not think it was, rishi didn't think he had done anything wrong, personally i would have my day in court with a good lawyer on my side.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Is it trivial he lied to Parliament about breaking lockdown rules?

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Again, when cornered your only recourse is to flip and start discussing the narrow issue of where the offence sits on the scale of criminal seriousness. That, as we have already established, and as you have admitted, is not the point.

Earlier you admitted there is a moral component to the behaviour of our leaders. It is in that moral area that this issue is anything but trivial, because the ‘grand scheme of things’ isn’t the standard scale of fixed penalty offences, it’s the question of whether our leaders model the behaviour they demand of their populations at times of national crisis.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

So I'm just watching Wiggy on BBC news now rolling out the line that what does it matter if he was just having a quick drink at the end of the day after all, these are the people he'd been working with all day.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

What will be in this story will be. I don’t see any need for him to resign or anything like that. Pay the fine and move on, I’m bored of it.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

He'll survive for the same reason he had the parties. The rules don't apply to him. Sunak might go though.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I think Sunak will go sooner rather than later, but Borris will try and hang on as long as he can but will have no choice but to go in the end, especially if he gets more fixed penalties. The one thing we won't see is Borris doing the honourable thing, because to do the honourable thing you need to be honourable and he just isn't and I doubt ever has been.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Johnson needs to move out and then we can move on.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

Demonstrates that our rulers knew all along that the cov rules were b*ll*cks and not worth following.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

They set the rules. They should have followed them.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

No, it demonstrates that they thought they were able to be cautious enough in their own behaviour to mitigate their rule breaking and avoid spreading covid, while assuming that the Great Unwashed couldn’t be trusted and so must have the rules enforced with fines.

Whether or not that’s the case is a separate issue. The issue of concern now is whether those in leadership should lead by example at a time of crisis, and what they should do if they are found wanting.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

I agree...but it does demonstrate that they knew that their own rules weren't worth following.
As someone of some meme said: "I'll be worried about this when the people who are telling me to be worried, are themselves worried"
Instead of that we had Prof Pantsdown shagging his mistress after telling us to 'stay home, lives depend on it' etc, etc......

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

:clap::clap:

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

That's a charitable interpretation of what was going on in their minds.
I wouldn't care much about this but let's not forget that parents were literally stopped from being at the bedside of their dying child. That's why my blood boils over this.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

That guy himself resigned for breaking the laws he helped inform though. It seems the advisor who does it had to resign but the person with the actual power doesn't.

The thing is it doesn't matter if you think the rules were bollocks or needed. The point is, as you say, that they made it a legal requirement to follow them but disobeyed it themselves. There is also the lying to Parliament thing.

Re: All those No.10 lockdown parties
 

First sitting PM to break the law. His own law. He's a very naughty boy, and a hypocrite. The rest of us can feel free to ignore the law too. Those that followed the rules over the last couple of years won't forgive him, or his party
if they continue to support him.