Re: smoking and the pub
 

:eek: :eek: Heaven forbid!!!!! How depressing would that be?!?!

















I like having a tan :D:D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Where can i find one of them then? :naughty:
Addresses please on a postcard,don`t lick the stamp.:D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

If you smokers want to have the right to blow your stinking, cancer inducing breath over me in the pub, I want the right to go up to you in the pub and urinate over you.

It'd be less disgusting, smell better, and be far far healthier for all of us. ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Personally, i find the thought of you urinating on me far more disgusting than someone smoking next to me. How do we know you don`t have Hep B or C or AIDS?
Get your priorities right and please keep your personal fetishes to yourself.;):disturbd::D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:LOL:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Priority's - meet facts. Facts - priority's;)!

HIV isn't transmitted through contact with urine

Hepatitis B is not found in sweat, tears, urine, or respiratory secretions

Hepatitis C is very rarely transmitted sexually; it is very difficult to find hepatitis C virus in semen or urine.

If you're worried about Hep anything I'd go for A, but you can get that from eating food prepared by someone with it. Perhaps cookie should offer you a pea of a different sort? :erm:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Never go to the pub nowadays (probably an age thing!) but I've recently started smoking again and I'm thoroughly enjoying it! :tu:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Am you living under my stairs by any chance?

Lets move into OB's - sounds like much more fun (she's even been known to wear hotpants!!).

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm glad the smoking ban is coming, on the 30th June I start a two week holiday in Great Yarmouth, and it means I can enjoy watching the entertainment on the camp without the need for a gas mask.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Spare a thought for all the non-smoking bar staff.
They have nicotine withdrawl to look forward to.

It happened in Scotland. Without the passive smoking, the levels of nicotine in non-smoking staff suddenly dropped, leaving them cranky and feeling unwell.
Of course members of staff who smoke carried on smoking and so had no such drop in nicotine.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Do you ask smokers if they have cancer before you allow them to sit next to you?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Someone smoking next to you is horrrible all that smoke, which sticks to you, and doesnt smell nice either

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What's almost as bad is someone who's just been for a smoke sitting next to you and you get that attractive stale stench wafting over you too.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The Riddler?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But of course oral sex and sun bathing have never had any adverse effect on any third party. That's the point with passive smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No, just wondering what Russ meant by his statement.

---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:13 ----------

So, you're telling me that the transfer of human bodily fluids from someone who is HIV positive has never had an effect on, say for example, an unborn child? I'm sure that's an enormous psychologial and emotional relief to many of the pregnant women in the sub Saharan continent.

And women who contract melanoma during pregnancy have no residual impact on their unborn children?

Why, thank you......doctor.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Is it not blindingly obvious? When a smoker has just indulged in their addiction and returns to sit next to you (as happens to me in work on a daily basis), their stale stench fills the area you're sitting in.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes, it was blindingly obvious - which is why I asked.

So whilst you're quite content to run around exchanging bodily fluids with strangers in your lycra clad alter ego you take issue with the stale stench of smokers who comply with the law of the land by not polluting your personal space with their smoke (smell is different from actual smoke you do understand?).

Well pardon me all over the place Russ - but that's a very bizarre interpretaion of "love thy neighbour" & "Do unto others" if you don't mind me saying so.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hey thanks Doctor, good to hear from you too!

Please keep killing yourself if you must but don't expect me to mourn come July 1st!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Sorry, was that a rebuttal of what I said or are you just terminally pathetic at defending ill founded statements?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The difference of course being that any strangers I'm exchanging bodily fluid with in my "lycra clad alter ego" are fully aware of what will happen and are completely accepting of this as it's part and parcel of the job.

Very poor analogy.

Actually I do mind, as that's a typically low, poor quality and uncalled-for dig at my faith on your part.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well I sort of gave up to be honest - I thought you were a bit thick with your original ridiculous statement about oral sex and skin cancer. Prove me wrong if you can!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I will be quite happy about the ban when it comes into force and I really do not mind if people smell of smoke its upto them I inflict my farts on anyone near me when I need to blow and sometimes they smell a hell of a lot worse than smoke on clothes ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Sorry Russ, but it shows your wanton disregard for your own health that you would get into a ring with a stranger without first insisting that they, beyond physical injury, don't represent a threat to your health - yet you're happy to bleat on about the "smell" of smokers who are complying with your right to be protected from the by products of their addiction - a perfectly good analogy I think you'll find.

Let's not get hung up on your "faith" perseution complex. I stated it was a bizarre interpretation of one of the tenets of your faith and that is exactly what it is - I'm not about to get into a theological debate over a display of your own contradictiory ignorance, sorry.

Lets move on and stick to the subject at hand.

---------- Post added at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

I think you'll find I already did.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well thanks very much. Seriously though, smoking is the only habit that directly affects other people (i.e. gives them cancer). As far as I can see it's absolutely indefensible.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And your above post shows your wanton ignorance for me and what goes on in pro wrestling.

You have NO IDEA what preparation goes on in to a wrestling match.

You have NO IDEA of what hygiene standards the promotion I work for insists on.

You have NO IDEA of the high standards I expect of anyone I step in to the ring with.

Yet you feel qualified enough to make the above cock-eyed assessment.

So no, awful analogy.

So you're permitted to take the thread off-topic to have a dig at my faith and I'm not? Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

Firstly my faith is none of your business. Secondly I don't (and have never done) judge you on your beliefs so kindly return the gesture. Thirdly you know nothing about how I apply my faith to my life.

Please stick to subjects you know more than nothing about.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Do all you have to take full STI tests Russ???

Re: smoking and the pub
 

If an appropriate thread comes up, I'll happily answer this plus completely disintergrate Mr Angry's argument at the same time.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ok sorry but there was a point I was making kinda on topic as a possible "passive" way of giving someone a problem . Thanks for your reply though Russ

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Russ,

You're a moderator - do your homework on the logfiles and check where my current daytime posts originate from. You'll find that my current consultancy would suggest that I DO know what preparation goes into a pro wrestling match (or any sporting event attended by the public for that matter ) and not only do I have an IDEA of the hygiene standards but I actually draft the legislation for them. There are posters on these boards who can confirm this.

As for your distinctly personal attack on my supposed attack on your faith it's about time you stopped portraying yourself as some sort of whipping boy everytime someone asks you a question out of genuine interest that you find too akward to answer.

On the subject of answers perhaps you'll answer me this?

If, according to you, the exchange of bodily fluids between two consenting (be that sporting or otherwise) adults and any resulting damage to health is a matter of them being "fully aware of what will happen" and that they are "completely accepting of this as it's part and parcel of the job" are you condoning / accepting the risks associated with the professional practices of prostitutes - or are they "special"?

I'm not interested in your "based on faith" answer - I want to know what YOU think.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But the very fact you've brought this up clearly proves you know nothing about it.

You wish.

My faith has nothing to do with this thread so kindly don't bring it up.

On the subject of answers perhaps you'll answer me this?

You're asking me for my views on a subject - prostutution - that I have no experience of so any answer I give is hypothetical.

The risk of passing on any kind of dangerous disease/infection during a wrestling match is somewhere between miniscule and zero. I have one of the promotors I work for on msn right now and I asked him what the chances are. His reply was in the 27 years he's been in the business, he's never heard of it happening. That's not a cast-iron gauarantee, but 27 years speaks for itself I think you'll agree.

Obviously you cannot apply the same standards to prostitution as it's an entirely different matter and my original reply which you're getting in a paddy over was clearly aimed at pro wrestling ie a subject I do actually have knowledge and experience in.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes, of course Russ, you're right. How could I ever have doubted your ability not to be proven wrong? After all, my mortgage and standard of living depend on it.

My earlier post in which I stated "Lets move on and stick to the subject at hand." refers. Please try to keep up.

I'm quite prepared to take your word on that. So what's your experience of the afterlife then?

Perhaps he should spend more time factually researching instead of chatting on msn / promoting? 27 years of ignorant bliss can be dispelled. The HSE site is free to use you know.

Oh right, your absolute clarity made all the difference there. Can we have an answer now please?

What sort of comment is "getting in a paddy over" supposed to be?

Are you having a pop at me because of my nationality? That's not very.....you know the drill.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So how many years of actively taking part of pro-wrestling do you have?

If only you'd have stuck to that. See below in bold....

Yes.....so what has the story of Chris Kanyon being discriminated against over his sexuality have to do with my promoter not hearing of any diseases or viruses passed on through wrestling in 27 years?

It's not my fault you didn't read something which disagrees with you with an open mind. And I answered it at the bottom of post 1432.

Oh come on, now you're really scraping the barrel.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

All out of grown up answers are we?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

As far as I can tell, I 'have' answered you, however quite possibly not the answers you were hoping for. You going to take a turn at answering my questions?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You answer mine and then I answer yours. It's called protocol / decorum / manners.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

A local bar tender where I live blogged this.
http://www.chrishalleron.com/archives/225.html

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Very mature...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Quid pro quo eh? Don't fancy some fava beans with a nice Chianti do you...?

I have answered your questions.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I obviously missed the bit where you've explained about your personal experiences of the afterlife, about how finding smokers "smell" is considered to be in keeping with "Love thy neighbour" and "Do unto others" and how you distinguish between someone knowing the risks of their job being acceptable / different dependant on the supposed moral bonafides of their job. Sorry there.

I'll stick to Heinz beans* if you don't mind.

I'm off to bed, nosdawch / oiche mhaith.

Peace.


*A special chow mein from the Oriental Inn - 02890 611999

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You were serious with that? Seeing as it's entirely off topic (not to mention it's mixing up 'faith' with potential 'first hand experience') I just assumed it was your usual 'wit'.

It fits perfectly thanks. I have the right to complain about others' behaviour just as much as anyone else.

You brought a dimension in to the equasion which I have no experience of (prostitution) - so I answered in terms of what I do know about - wrestling.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ah, the old "off topic" defence. Plus ca change.

OK, at least now you've confirmed that you're in the habit of offering commentary on things you've no experience of - that clears things up a little.

Yes, quite. In much the same way that I have the right to complain about others who practice things / behave in a manner which I don't (are you sensing a parity of esteem yet?).

However, I didn't query your right to complain. I asked you where your "they smell" attitude fitted in with the context / concept of "love thy neighbour" and "do unto others".

Perhaps you find that, like your "throw a Paddy" remark, a bit too akward to explain?

Anyway, I'll save you the bother / indignity by suggesting that we fall back on Ye Olde trustworthy "back on topic" clause - rather than command a factually sensible answer.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I do that, you do that, doesn't everyone?

Yes that's fine, as long as you keep things on-topic.

Quite well thanks. As I said I have the right to complain/comment about someone's bad habits encroaching on my privacy.

"Throw a paddy" means to have a tantrum, get worked up over nothing, that sort of thing. That you've suggested I'm making some kind of comparison is sraping the barrel really and indicates you're running out of defences. Unlike some on CF, I won't make cheapshot stereotyped comments about someone's nationality (apart from the americans but they deserve it ;) :D )

I've answered you plenty of times however sadly not the way you want me to as I suspect my replies haven't led me to fall in to any verbal 'traps'. Oh and sorry about the 'back on topic' thing. You've already ackonwledged I'm a mod, or have you forgotten that?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So, no change there then.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

After reading the last page or 2 of posts on this "off" topic im now craving a ciggie after 17 years without one

Re: smoking and the pub
 

(Sigh)

That's right, my views haven't changed.

Now, with your permission, any chance we can get back on topic now?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes, but not on matters as untangible / unproven as the afterlife - thanks.
(cue complaint about "faith persecution")



As predicted.


Yes, but I sensed it was a rather voracious attack on those who you decscribed as having an addiction. I was pointing out that not smoking in your immediate environment was evidence that they were complying with the law / considerate of your health.


On the subject of "scraping the barrel" (is this you new favourite phrase) I didn't "suggest" anything, I questioned what you meant - that's your problem Russ, you don't understand the concept of questions / answers - you think everyone has an accusatory agenda - just to trip you up.

"Defences" to what exactly?

Nothing to see here, move along.

My comment above refers.

Oh the power, the power! Get over yourself Russ. Show a bit of restraint the next time you throw a Paddy;) when you read something that you mistakenly think is an attack on you. Oh, and try counting to ten before you start to hit the buttons.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well I suggest you go and get your 6th sense re-tuned as it was nothing of the sort.

And I suggest you show a bit of restraint and 'count to 10' as well - it's nothing to do with 'power' - sounds like you're the one reading in 'attack' in to someone's comments - I'm just reminding you that it's part of being a mod to try and keep things on topic - that is why I have repeatedly asked you to do so.

I know 100% it's not an attack on me - but you continue to ignore my requests.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

Russ I think you'll find it's you who dragged things back off topic and insisted in engaging me by implying that I was baiting you.

I had no intention of discussing your faith or taking the subject matter off topic.

My closing comments in post #1425 were as follows.

"Let's not get hung up on your "faith" perseution complex. I stated it was a bizarre interpretation of one of the tenets of your faith and that is exactly what it is - I'm not about to get into a theological debate over a display of your own contradictiory ignorance, sorry.

Lets move on and stick to the subject at hand."

So please, let's move on. Thanks.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ok. Just as long as we can acknowledge that although you did say all the above, you contradicted yourself about wanting to 'move on and stick to the subject at hand' by asking in post 1435..

I'm quite prepared to get back on topic however you don't seem to want to, as you went back to that subject uneccessarily. But in your above post you've stated you want to stay on-topic.

Good, I'm glad. Just as long you stand by your word this time.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I was "down the pub" last night and these guys were chatting.

One of them, lets call him #1425, asked not to discuss religion but the other, I think his name was #1427, insisted in raising it and this resulted in a third party, #1435 getting involved.

There was a bit of a melee and the bouncers were called in - turns out #1427 knew all the bouncers and worked as one himself. He was a bit deft with the old grappling.

I can tell you, it was all a bit hairy for a while, but they all counted to ten and it got sorted out.

All in all it was a splendid evening - I do miss the old character of the smoke filled bar though. I think not being allowed to smoke in bars is a good thing.

What does everyone else think?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Can we all return to the topic NOW please.

Jefferspn T

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I hope whatever no smoking legislation you guys implement is better thought out than that which was initially drafted here in Northern Ireland.

The "law" as it stands over here is full of holes. There are reams of contradictions and unenforcable caveats.

I believe that the smoking ban was well intentioned but badly put together (by non smokers actually). We have ridiculous scenarios over here in the current legislation where it's technically "illegal" to smoke at a bus stop and home visit employees (community care, meals on wheels, locum doctors etc etc) are unable to do their job if they are asked to visit a smoker at their home.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ok bus stops can be enclosed. Its to late for me ive been massively overweight ive taken hordes of various drugs and abused my body for a large amount of my life so im screwed. My 10 year old daughter however hasnt and isnt and I do not want her exposed to the very real dangers of passive smoking. You as a very strong advocate of human rights must concede that if me and you were in the same room one of us would have their rights infringed by the other ie you wanting to smoke me wanting you not to so who desides whos rights take priority? the one who knows the dangers but accepts them or the the one who wants to protect his/her health. The second part of what you said I agree is stupid

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Zing, you're absolutely right that non smokers have the right to live, sleep, eat in a smoke free environment - I've no issue with that.

I do find it interesting though that there is no provision for retrospective claims in any of the current legislation and the country is awash with both legal and illegal tobacco forms. The ban, if indeed the health and wellbeing of people is its core purpose, is fraught with loopholes and contradictions which suggest that this is a "finger in the dyke" approach.

Whilst it might be a bit "over simplistic" for some I think that the Government would be seen to be genuinely interested in the health of its citizens by banning tobacco outright.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But if they totally ban anything it will just go under ground and put cash in the hands of villain's imo it would just increase an already unbeatable drug problem in this country

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just waiting for our no smoking signs in our vans :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

They're in the pipeline, i've just sent some off for printing for our stop smoking service which will be placed in local business company cars and vans.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well we've been told we won't even be allowed to smoke in the car park at work as it's still classed as the workplace :shocked: Ok then, I guess the only other option of stand in front of the building off the property smoking and make the place look untidy. I see this all the time I go past garlands call centres, about 20 staff at the side of the buildnig smoking away. Makes the place look somewhat amateurish

Edit: Sorry, they are amateurish aint they :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Something to bear in mind that came to light recently in our organisation is your employers can state that within paid working hours you do not leave the property (therefore cannot smoke during working hours at all). This does not include lunchtimes because most don't get paid for them anyway.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Isn't that against my human rights? Wait, I don't get those because I'm not an illegal immigrant, criminal or claiming dole :angel:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That has been tried by a pro-smoking group called FOREST i think, and it was decided it wasn't against human rights.

I'm dreading the ban tbh, even tho i work for a stop smoking service - we only want people to quit who are motivated to do so. This is pressure smokers don't need IMO.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm not really dreading it. I generally only smoke when I'm at work or out drinking. I recently went to Edinburgh and of course its all non smoking up there. I was perched at the bar and it never bothered me in the slightest that I couldn't have a ciggie.

I've even gone all day today without lighting up. Makes me wonder why I smoke to be honest. I wouldnt say I was addicted, more of a bad habit for me. Though it will feel weird going into the local social club and there not being clouds of pipe and cigar smoke :(

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I can take it or leave it having experienced general nights out in my home town of Liverpool compared to say Dublin or New York. I think people will be a bit lost at first, but most pubs that have the ability to put up some sort of smoking shelter will do so. Once the initial ban has been in place for a month or so - people will just adapt.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yea thats what I found when I visited Scotland. Got talking to someone having a smoke outside and he said it took them all a while to adapt the situation, few people being barred out the locals, even arrested. But now it's just part of life.

I see the more "local" pubs to be a little less foreful in the ban with the regulars. Most I've spoke to said they would still allow smoking if only it was quiet. So during the day when they only have a few of the old men in for the afternoon pint. This I think would work better than an outright ban. I seriously can't think how the nightclubs etc are going to be able to cope. Just need to wait and watch :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But the landlord may then end up with a fine of £2,500 so i'm unsure if they will be quite so flexible :dozey:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

My wife runs a pub which has been no smoking for 2 years now .Most customers know where they can smoke outside at first the was a lot of compliants but now they take it for granted :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

looking forward to this i can then go to the pub see my mum without sum1 slowly killing me yey (and her)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Makes sense, when are we withdrawing from the Geneva Convention then? Only under this government could those hostile to us, have more rights than citizens themselves, still it's all for our own good :rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That would never work at our place - first there are security cameras watching the yard and car park, and second there's a cabin for the security guards at the front gate. :) Even the delivery van drivers won't be allowed to smoke during working hours, and if they think their transport department managers aren't going to check, they're living in cloud cuckoo land.

A notice about the ban has gone up at our place, so they can't say they haven't been told. But there's another aspect of the ban which, quite frankly, I don't think the smokers at our place have thought of: namely, that since employees will not now be taking smoke breaks - supposedly - the managers will expect an increase in throughput.

I haven't the faintest idea of how much of an increase our lot will be expecting, but you can bet if they don't get some increase they'll damn well want to know why. And they will be able to tell, because our stock control system is entirely computerised. It goes like this:

As stock is unloaded from the trailers, the address barcode on each piece is scanned so as to add it to the stock, and in the process is given a unique reference label - as far as the database is concerned, this is the primary key, the address barcode being the secondary or foreign key. The reference label is considered to have a finite lifetime, which is from the moment it's received into stock to the moment it's delivered and the customer accepts delivery. But the entity relationship between item and customer is one-to-many, not one-to-one, because items can be reallocated.

A customer might cancel an order before it's delivered, or change their mind when it's delivered, in which case the driver has to bring it back. In either event, what are you supposed to do with it? Send it back to the supplier? No, that's not cost-effective; instead, reallocate it to another customer. If the relationship were one-to-one, there'd be no provision for cancellations, and eventually the warehouse would be full of cancelled and returned stock...although the place would most likely have gone bankrupt long before that point was reached. :D

Thus one item might have several customers before it's finally delivered (in practice, though, reallocation usually occurs a maximum of 3 times), but only one customer will eventually accept it upon delivery. At that point the reference label effectively ceases to exist; the customer order to which it refers will be retained on the database for a certain length of time (I don't know how long), and eventually deleted.

When stock is being put away on the various floors, the reference label and a location barcode are scanned, so as to register each item as being in a particular location.

At some point, stock items must be retrieved from wherever they've been put away, i.e. picked, so they can be loaded onto a given van. In the process, the address barcode and the reference label are both scanned to ensure each customer gets the correct item; it's no use sending a blue suite if they've ordered a cream one, for example, or a 3' bed if they want a 5' bed.

Finally, when the items are loaded onto the vans, each reference label is scanned by the loading team as a final check that a) every item for that van has been picked, b) it's present on the loading bay and c) it's the correct item - if you've got newbies doing the picking, they might have picked the wrong piece. It happens. Or the piece might have been labelled incorrectly by the receiving staff; that happens, too...far too frequently. :dozey:

The upshot of all this is that the database is updated in real time every time a reference label is scanned. Every hour, a report is printed which shows - to the item - exactly how much new stock has been received in, how much has been picked for loading onto the 7.5 ton delivery vans, how much put away, how much loaded on the vans etc...in other words, how much work has been done.

The management know perfectly well that a certain percentage of the workforce slope off at intervals to have a quick fag. Therefore, since they won't be doing that any more (allegedly), they'll be at their place of work for longer each day. Therefore, the stock reports should show that more work is being done - especially now they have, FINALLY, seen sense and reinstated the night shift, as a result of which the place is now operating 24/5, plus part-day weekends.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. I for one can't wait. :D

Right. Off to bed.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And does the "management" realise that there will be productivity loss because of un-happy workers because they can't have the occasional cigarette? No? Thought not. :p:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Re: smoking and the pub
 

you guys in England will probably notice five things in the pub that I have noticed since the smoking ban came into force in wales.

1) The pubs have a lot less customers and apparently the daytime custom has dissapeared in my local. Ther also seems to be a tendancy for the smokers to come out a lot later than they did.

2) When a smoker walks in, you can smell them straight away.

3) you will have difficulty getting in and out of the pub because they all huddle by the door feeding their addiction. Then complain if they have to join a queue to come back in.

4) When someone farts, it lingers for ages because there is no smoke to mask it or carry it upwards.

5) You can smell all the people with bad body odour. This has been very noticable, I can say I never noticed it before the smoking ban because the nasty stale smell of fags can overpower anything.

I cant believe I had some plus points for smoking in there.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So did one of our's they had him back on a forklift before the week was out :td:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Point 4, not the case in my local. When someone lets rip you know about it. It's a workingmans social club, so no women are allowed in the bar. A room full of blokes all having that quick pint before going home to see the wife. No ladies around, so just let rip. It can linger for ages.

As to point 5, even I as a smoker, can smell people who have just came from a fag break, have bad body odour, etc. They say it numbs your sense of smell, ive not noticed a difference.

Back onto the BAN, it hit me last week when I seen a huge sign in Lime Street Liverpool counting down in seconds, minutes, hours and days to when the ban hits. I've started thinking now about quiting. It's all very well in the summer months (when we actually get sun that is), I can just smoke in the beer garden. But come winter, do I really want to be stood outside in the wind and rain?

Around my town some places have already started making new outdoor heated areas for the smoker. Will be interesting to see how they go. Probably more people outside than in! :D Roll on the outdoor nightclub revolution? :p:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

My local is a listed building and they are not allowed to put up a canopy outside for the smokers. The pub is on a corner with a road at front and side, and there is no garden so they have been hit hard with loss of trade. I have noticed however that the Wetherspoons has lost a lot of trade, but that has always been non-smoking.

So perhaps its not all down to the smoking ban?

The body odour and people letting rip are noticably different since the smoking ban, I have had people come upto where I am stood at the bar and the smell is really bad, some of these have been going in there long before the smoking ban but it never got noticed. One of my mates doesn't have a very strong stomache and he has been heaving a number of times lately. One guy put his arms up in the air saturday night, I think half a dozen people passed out.:Yikes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This could prove interesting.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Love their "mission statement" - the non-italicised words at the end are mine. :)
"Our Mission is to highlight the injustice of the imposed smoking bans, in particular on the four countries of Britain, but also on our friends in Ireland and the rest of Europe, the USA and Canada.

We aim to challenge this injustice through the courts and to show the public that they have and are being lied to over Passive Smoking. We believe, in Freedom, Democracy, Truth and Choice" (for smokers)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Since our daughter was born 3 years ago we've had our own kind of smoking ban, we tried to give up but failed miserably:( and so we smoke outside in the past week fags have been far and few between to say the least due to the weather.

The pub side of things, i thought it was good enough when there was smoking areas in the pub so that if we went into the pub in the day for lunch or a snack we would be away from the smoke, funnily enough though if we wanted a fag whilst at the pub we would still go outside.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ah, the human rights gravy train again.

It's sad that something its founders intended to combat intolerance, persecution and totalitarianism is now being used left, right and centre to challenge laws passed by democratically elected governments.

The only people winning here are the lawyers.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

They are right. If the government had only required that SOME pubs enforce the ban, then there would be choice, both for non-smokers (go to a non-smoking pub, or go to a smoking pub and put up with the fumes) and smokers (Smoke, and go to smoking pub or don't smoke and go to a non-smoking pub). The ban as it is has removed that choice.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

For the last few years I have always gone outside for a cig even if smoking was allowed inside as I don't want to inflict it on other people

Re: smoking and the pub
 

At the risk of taking this thread right round in a big circle ... this legislation has been brought in as a health and safety at work measure, not a public health measure. It wouldn't make sense to apply it selectively.

There really is no grounds for objecting to this, it was a free vote in Parliament and is a truly democratic law.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But how would they have decided which pubs were required to impose the ban?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And if I remember correctly there was a similar objection up here in Scotland under human rights which was thrown out as well as one in Ireland which failed as well.

Still it'll be interesting to see how things pan out if the judges rule it infringes human rights in England but the rest of the UK keep their bans in place.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Not really as it's they're show proceedings, designed not to win but to win publicity.

ARTICLE 1

Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.


The preceding provisions shall not, however, in any way impair the right of a State to enforce such laws as it deems necessary to control the use of property in accordance with the general interest or to secure the payment of taxes or other contributions or penalties.

ARTICLE 8

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Article 1 gives governments a pretty wide scope for limiting the use of possessions so there's no breach there.

Article 8 gives governments far less scope but firstly it shouldn't be difficult for the govt to demonstrate that the ban is necessary for the protection of health or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

That's even assuming that this group can demonstrate that a ban on smoking in public places removes respect for their private and family life, home and correspondence, which I doubt

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I don't think they would. I think the pubs would have to apply to be smoking pubs.

---------- Post added at 17:02 ---------- Previous post was at 17:00 ----------


It was bought in as a knee jerk reaction to that guy suing that casino over his lung problems IIRC.

The point is that even in a smoking pub, it may be practical to have a deciated "smoking room".

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I can assure you these are not "show proceedings" and they have far greater implications than those which are only immediately apparent to people through articles 1 & 8.

By way of example - when does ones house become someone else's workplace and how is liability / culpability affected?

You see, the Government in it's infinite wisdom (and in the guise of protecting everyones health) has effectively shot itself in the foot whereby it has not delineated either of the above for the purposes of passing into legislation.

In effect a healthcare worker, social worker, benefits advisor, locum GP etc etc etc cannot, by law, call to an address where habitual smoking takes place as that environment, for the purposes of the duration of their visit, is their place of work.

Not the sharpest tools in the box - some MPs.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The Act doesn't cover people who visit other peoples houses as part of their employment so people won't be criminalised for smoking at home.

Having said that, we've had H&S at work legislation for ages now. If someone has to visit a smokers house for a long period (ie long enough to present a risk to health) then that would already be caught by existing legislation.

Companies already have the right to ask people not to smoke if one of their staff is about to visit in the sense that they can simply decline to provide the service otherwise.

Not sure how it works with public bodies which have statutory obligations to provide services but we don't seem to have an epidemic of elderly chavs dying because social services refused to send someone round because their house was full of smoke. And nothing's changed with the new act.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So, in effect, those who visit other peoples houses as part of their work are not covered - or as equally protected - by this so called "smoking ban" which is part of the issue I referenced earlier.

Not so - there is no "long enough to present a risk to health" benchmark with regards to exposure to tobacco smoke - either first or second hand.

They have the right to ask but no legal powers to insist. How many home service business can afford to refuse to service that part of their customer base which constitutes smoking customers?

This, I believe, is part of what the "show proceedings" hope to determine.

It's not just "elderly chavs" who die of cancers caused by smoking - but your disdain towards them is touching. Likewise we don't appear to have an epidemic of people dying from diseases directly attributable to passive smoking.

Actually, quite a lot will change with the introduction of the ban.

If the Government were truly sincere about the prime motive for this move being health related they would ban tobacco entirely instead of this mealy mouthed quick fix solution.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

if you go for a job in a bar you know there will be smoke same as if you apply to work in a nuclear plant there are obvious risks or a soldier, your gonna get shot at that must surely be the biggest no no in h & s eyes lol

i went for a job dealing with soil samples and was told at the interview there may be times where the soil contains nasty chemicals etc that will be airborne. i was'nt happy with that so i declined the job i'd be willing to bet that someone else took the job because they was happy with the risks.

if you don't like second hand smoke don't go for a job that is renown for it if do gooders get their way then no-one will ever have to make their own decisions.

bottom line is it's going to happen for now but every job has it's environmental issues, it's down to your own discretion if your happy with the risks.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes. Not sure if the NI legislation is the same, but that's the case for England. I think the peoples homes exemption is through regulations rather than in the act itself though it's a while since I read the English act so I may be wrong on that point.



True - but a court would decide on the facts of the particular case if an employer required an employee to work in conditions that the employee believed were dangerous because of second hand smoke



Not many - but then, the new act has nothing to do with this, and companies seemed to have managed to create a balance between providing services and protecting their employees health so far, so I don't see what's changed.



But the new act DOESN'T change anything about the law in relation to people whose work entails visiting private homes. So how can a challenge to the new law possibly have anything to do with the application of existing legislation?

That sort of issue would be determined by either a member of public bringing proceedings against a public body that refused to provide statutory services under because of the danger to health of their employee, OR the public body's employee bringing proceedings against their employer for forcing them to provide those services in circumstances they considered dangerous.

In any case, my understanding was that they were challenging under A1 and A8 of ECHR. Which won't address any of those issues.



I know, I should have put a wink smiley in there. I was being facetious to illustrate a point ;)



Yes, but not in relation to house visits :) I've no doubt there'll be lots of minor legal wrangles in both the civil and criminal courts over exactly where the edges of the ban are, but you always get that with any kind of legislation. Nothing major's cropped up so far in any of the other bits of the UK that already have similar bans.

Could taxation money possibly be involved here? ;)

I'm not sure you're right on this one; the new law doesn't stop people from smoking but stops them from smoking where it'll cause health problems to people who have to be there because its their job.

Personally I support the workplace ban, but I wouldn't support a ban that stopped people smoking in their own homes, because as far as I'm concerned what they do there where it's not going to harm others is their own business.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What about babies/young children that live there? ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Suffice to say we could argue the legal merits of this for weeks but there is little point.

I too agree with the ban. One interesting analogy I would point to is that since the introduction of the law here in NI several months ago I'm unaware of anyone or any business, whatsoever, having been prosecuted for non-compliance.

Optimists and the health conscious might assume that this is because the entire population of NI are law abiding citizens, however cynics will point out that there is no means of enforcement in place nor does the legislative body have any visable / legally viable plan to establish or delegate any such enforcement.

Plus ca change.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Like I said: where it's not going to harm others

I'm assuming it's not the babies/young children that are the ones smoking, mind you ;)

---------- Post added at 21:22 ---------- Previous post was at 21:19 ----------

And pragmatists might say that where the ban is being broken, it's been done in a surreptitious way where no one who's not a smoker is going to be affected, so everyone's happy. :)

I'm an optimistic pragmatist, see ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No bad thing. :tu:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

a little disturbing that tony has latched onto one of hitlers ideas ,for a healthier nation.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Through what I have seen here in Wales, I would say the vast majority would apply to be smoking pubs if that were the case. I saw a report on the news last night where they interviewed a few pub landlords in Scotland, it agreed with the situation experienced here in Wales.

The pub trade during the day is now non-existent, if I pop into my local for a daytime meal I can now eat it in the bar because it is a nice smell free, smoke free place. (not that I go in the pub very often during the day) On the other hand it is also a virtually customer free place, so they must be loosing lots of money.

It seems the lower class out of work smokers who sit in the pub between trips to the betting shop are now giving the pub a miss. My local used to be full of that type along with pensioners during the daytime, day and night customers were very different.

The day customers have apparently vanished.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Wonder if you can still smoke in the bookies.

Most of the punters used to smoke when I was working in one and the company actually paid for patches & suchlike to help staff give up cigs.:dozey: