Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Nothing new there - he has previously been asked this question and said he would step down if found to have broken the law, even if not fined.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Link please.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Wrong, you see this is the problem I have with you, your inability to follow the facts, Keir was asked if he’d resign *if* only fined and he confirmed this in his statement.

This isn’t an open ended statement.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Plenty of news outlets have used the phrases “if fined” and “if found to have broken the law” interchangeably, especially in their headlines. It I is very unlikely Starmer has distinguished these as two distinct alternative outcomes and I can’t find any written evidence that he has done so.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

He hasn't. He made it clear that he is saying the fine is what decides if he has broken the law.

I also don't think it's likely the police will outright say he broke the law but they won't fine him. I think in the result they don't fine him any wording will stop short of saying he broke the law and instead say he broke 'guidance' or he 'may' have broken the law.

Starmer didn't change position here and i think the press knows that but it's an angle to keep the story going a bit.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I don't think it's much of a contradiction. It was clearly initially a work event. The question is how much did it stop being a work event and start becoming a social event? I can certainly see how the lines could be blurred for someone to be pretty certain it's a work event but by the law, which he voted for, it wasn't.

When you're working long hours away from home then work does blend into food. You and your colleagues might break for pizza or whatever whilst still semi-working. To me that's work but would I have been fined in that scenario? If so, then so should he.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I was convinced I had read it somewhere. I'll have a look again this evening but everything points to my being wrong! Apologies.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I have to say, you both clearly didn’t take in everything Starmer stated last week. Sky’s Beth Rigby specifically asked him, linked his potential FPN, only being a resigning matter, Starmer referred her to his earlier remark that he would resign if he got a FPN. Even the guardian considered his position, having a “loophole”.

For reference here is his full statement:



There was lots of it being discussed that Starmer was using the “Dominic Cummings, get out jail free card.” That Durham wouldn’t retrospectively issue a lockdown fine, given they didn’t with DC.

---------- Post added at 16:54 ---------- Previous post was at 16:07 ----------

I think what’s sparked this Express story about Keir supposedly changing his position, he’s been on Loose Women, he’s apparently said on there today:

Causing Labour to thrash it out by saying:

Which it wasn’t in the case of Dominic Cummings.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Yeah that's what I said. He isn't separating the concept of breaking the law from a FPN

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

But he’s gambling on the Police doing so, given he won’t commit to resigning, even if they find he had broke the rules but won’t fine him, like they did with Cummings.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

There is industrial scale whataboutery going on here. The important decision is if the current Government, led by Boris Johnson, is fit to govern this country given the corrupt, dishonest, immoral and criminal behaviour they have demonstrated on an almost daily basis.

Who replaces them, whether they in turn are fit for office, is orthogonal to the decision whether this Government is fit for office. The right wing trope of "well, they are like that so where is the problem?" is childish at best.

We should aim to have a Government that is fit for office, trustworthy and has integrity & honesty (within the bounds of conventional politics). This current Executive has shown itself to have none of these qualities and consequently, their supporters, ones who you might call "decent" Tories are deserting them in droves.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

There is nothing “right wing” about calling out Keir Starmer, who had also conducted himself in a untrustworthy, corrupt way, he’s not an effective communicator and that matters, whether he’s government or not. So this fit for office you speak of, I want that, but Starmer hasn’t got what it takes, so no I won’t just froth about Johnson because you say I should.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

How is Starmer "corrupt"?

And how does Starmer's qualities determine how the Tories are fit for office? As I said, industrial scale whataboutery ...

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Not sure how it can be whataboutery when the thread topic involves johnson, starmer and others..... :shrug: