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Hugh 05-02-2017 17:34
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
But the Executive Order has to conform to the laws of the land and the Constitution, and not over-ride those - this is the basis on which the Federal Judge over-ruled it, and why it must be considered in the Courts.

Even the President has to follow the Law and the Constitution.

nomadking 05-02-2017 17:43
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35884118)
But the Executive Order has to conform to the laws of the land and the Constitution, and not over-ride those - this is the basis on which the Federal Judge over-ruled it, and why it must be considered in the Courts.

Even the President has to follow the Law and the Constitution.
So where is the hypothetical example that would be valid. There must be be one for the grounds against the Executive Order to be remotely valid. Any basis will always affect one group than another.

If anything it is those that are opposed to the EO that are acting illegally as they keep trying to discriminate by overturning the general rule with discriminatory exceptions to the rule. It is exceptions to a general rule that are discriminatory. The general rule by definition isn't, as it is applied generally.

Hugh 05-02-2017 17:46
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Well, the Vice-President of the USA disagrees with you...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...vows-overturn/
Quote:
Mike Pence has said Judge James Robart, referred to by Donald Trump as a "so-called judge", has the authority to take the actions he did.

“He certainly does, and that's why the administration is complying with that order as we speak," he told ABC.

Pierre 05-02-2017 20:41
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35884093)
He can't ban someone based on religion which is what he is trying to do ,many top US lawyers are saying he's violating the 1st amendment
F.F.S......this is why people get annoyed. When on this very thread it has been explained in crystal clarity for the hard of understanding that this is not lawfully or legally a ban on any religion but it is a ban on nationals of those countries regardless of anything.

And yet you still get statements like this from you Marty, which after all this time and all the evidence and facts displayed in just this thread and still you come out with this........quite simply make you look like a simpleton.

ianch99 05-02-2017 20:56
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35884028)
But I'm not incorrect.

Not end of discussion. Because you are wrong. It is States which determines the Presidency, not the entire voting population. Trump won more States, so Kursk is right based on how the democracy system works in the US.
We are not saying that Trump did not win the electoral college, he did. What we are saying and you keep conflating the two points here, is that he did not get a majority of the votes cast. More people voted for Clinton than Trump .. period.

If people go around saying that " .. his supporters are the majority of the electorate" then they are wrong. This is such a basic point, I am surprised it needs any debate.

If you go around saying that Trump has a popular mandate then this gives a very misleading impression of his support in the country.

1andrew1 05-02-2017 21:54
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35884141)
F.F.S......this is why people get annoyed. When on this very thread it has been explained in crystal clarity for the hard of understanding that this is not lawfully or legally a ban on any religion but it is a ban on nationals of those countries regardless of anything.

And yet you still get statements like this from you Marty, which after all this time and all the evidence and facts displayed in just this thread and still you come out with this........quite simply make you look like a simpleton.
Hopefully, we can all agree that the order does not mention Muslims or Christians by name?
The argument being made is that Muslims have been singled out implicitly, not explicitly.

Thus the order can be seen as a violation of the First Amendment of the Constitution; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".
As evidence of discriminatory intent, Trump's challengers cite:
* The exemption that the immigration order provides for religious minorities.
* Comments made by him and his colleagues whilst campaigning.

They additionally argue that the action violates the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment guarantees of "due process of the law" by denying entry to individuals with valid visas.

Chris 05-02-2017 21:56
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35884141)
F.F.S......this is why people get annoyed. When on this very thread it has been explained in crystal clarity for the hard of understanding that this is not lawfully or legally a ban on any religion but it is a ban on nationals of those countries regardless of anything.

And yet you still get statements like this from you Marty, which after all this time and all the evidence and facts displayed in just this thread and still you come out with this........quite simply make you look like a simpleton.
It stems from Trump's own campaign press release, read out at a rally by him, which said he was calling for a ban on travel from Muslim countries until US officials could figure out "what the hell is going on".

The wording of his executive orders might have been more circumspect, but the thinking behind them is there for all to see.

pip08456 05-02-2017 21:58
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35884142)
We are not saying that Trump did not win the electoral college, he did. What we are saying and you keep conflating the two points here, is that he did not get a majority of the votes cast. More people voted for Clinton than Trump .. period.

If people go around saying that " .. his supporters are the majority of the electorate" then they are wrong. This is such a basic point, I am surprised it needs any debate.

If you go around saying that Trump has a popular mandate then this gives a very misleading impression of his support in the country.
It's worth noting that if you take California out of the result, Trump would've won the popular vote. Funny how one state can change an election result, I wonder.

Could that be why they have the College votes?

Pierre 05-02-2017 22:12
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35884144)
Hopefully, we can all agree that the order does not mention Muslims or Christians by name?
The argument being made is that Muslims have been singled out implicitly, not explicitly.

Thus the order can be seen as a violation of the First Amendment of the Constitution; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".
As evidence of discriminatory intent, Trump's challengers cite:
* The exemption that the immigration order provides for religious minorities.
* Comments made by him and his colleagues whilst campaigning.

They additionally argue that the action violates the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment guarantees of "due process of the law" by denying entry to individuals with valid visas.
I understand all of that but it was quite clear that such a ban, based on religion, was unconstitutional and unlawful, therefore the order that was made avoided or evaded such.

So it doesn't matter what was said in the campaign or what people perceive implicitly.

He has tried to apply his policy the best he can, within the the law, and still this ****, acknowledging the initial issues around green cards and stuff.

TheDaddy 05-02-2017 22:32
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35884141)
F.F.S......this is why people get annoyed. When on this very thread it has been explained in crystal clarity for the hard of understanding that this is not lawfully or legally a ban on any religion but it is a ban on nationals of those countries regardless of anything.

And yet you still get statements like this from you Marty, which after all this time and all the evidence and facts displayed in just this thread and still you come out with this........quite simply make you look like a simpleton.
I think some people just get annoyed because someone disagrees with them :)

And didn't the donald say he was going to prioritise Christian syrian refugees over muslim ones, that maybe to right some perverse previous imbalance but when in the previous pre president breath he's talking about a total and complete shutdown of the borders to muslims it's not going to be hard to see a bias

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 35884058)
I really can't stand Trump.

Been reading his tweets from the last few days and he really does behave like a stroppy teenager when things don't go his way. I also can't believe that as POTUS he is still allowed to send his own tweets without advice first, as some of the tweets are very dodgy.

Sooner they get something they can impeach him on the better I say.
I like him, he's hilarious plus could you imagine how dull it'd be if killer clinton had won, all we'd have to chat about would be brexit :sleep: and at least whilst he's playing with his tweeting machine his hands aren't wandering near any other more important buttons or any ladies lady bits

1andrew1 05-02-2017 22:36
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35884147)
I understand all of that but it was quite clear that such a ban, based on religion, was unconstitutional and unlawful, therefore the order that was made avoided or evaded such.

So it doesn't matter what was said in the campaign or what people perceive implicitly.

He has tried to apply his policy the best he can, within the the law, and still this ****, acknowledging the initial issues around green cards and stuff.
You might not conclude that it matters. But as we know, it's not up to us web discussants in the UK but to the judges in the US to decide if these things matter.

ianch99 05-02-2017 22:49
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35884146)
It's worth noting that if you take California out of the result, Trump would've won the popular vote. Funny how one state can change an election result, I wonder.

Could that be why they have the College votes?
I agree. However, the voters in California count the same as those in the Mid-West. It is the notion of a popular mandate that must not be mis-used.

In the UK, even with its flawed parliamentary system, a new Government with a slim majority is always very aware of this and would (or should) refrain from declaring a strong mandate from the electorate for new, controversial policies.

1andrew1 05-02-2017 23:33
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35884146)
It's worth noting that if you take California out of the result, Trump would've won the popular vote. Funny how one state can change an election result, I wonder.

Could that be why they have the College votes?
It's also worth noting that California is the largest state. Its population of over 38m is about 1.5 times the size of the next largest state, Texas.

Arthurgray50@blu 05-02-2017 23:33
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Just to point out, IF, the whole country went for the popular vote. Clinton would have won comfortably. She had more that 300.00 votes than Trump did.

What we have here is that Trump, is NOT above the Law. He has to within the Constitution. He is now criticising the Judge - see he wants it HIS way.

He is running a Country, not one of his Business.

I bet if that Judge was an Employee of his empire. He would be sacked today. As he wants everything HIS way.

Maggy 06-02-2017 00:14
Re: U.S President: Donald Trump
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35884151)
I think some people just get annoyed because someone disagrees with them :)

And didn't the donald say he was going to prioritise Christian syrian refugees over muslim ones, that maybe to right some perverse previous imbalance but when in the previous pre president breath he's talking about a total and complete shutdown of the borders to muslims it's not going to be hard to see a bias

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------



I like him, he's hilarious plus could you imagine how dull it'd be if killer clinton had won, all we'd have to chat about would be brexit :sleep: and at least whilst he's playing with his tweeting machine his hands aren't wandering near any other more important buttons or any ladies lady bits
I don't care to live in interesting times thanks..


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